Why the FUCK do Dems continue to diss Kerry for not fighting back but won't PULL THE TRIGGER ON AIP?

[Leopolds Ghost]

Anyone who don't know what I'm talking about has no business pontificating on the campaign.

THIS is how you fight back aginast swift-boating:

WOULD-BE OBAMA NEGATIVE AD THAT DOES NOT EXIST AND HAS NOT BEEN AIRED OR DISCUSSED. WHY?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eniG9l_7its

"The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government,
and I won't be buried under their damn flag. I'll be buried in Dawson, and when Alaska is
an independent nation, they can bring my bones home, back to my country...

You renounce allegiance, and you pledge your efforts, your effects, and your life to Alaska,
that's how I do. I am an Alaskan, you see."

AIP founder

"Our current governor, who I mentioned the last conference, the one we were hoping
would get elected, Sarah Palin, did get elected. ... You should infiltrate -- I know
that the Christian Exodus is in favor of it, the free state movement is in favor of it.
Put the Republican label on it to get elected. That's all there is to it."

AIP vice-chairman

"Taking the high road" is EXACTLY what you guys attacked Kerry for doing.

The difference? KERRY was a liberal... Obama is by all indications NOT.
Obama will govern slightly to Clinton's right. So Obama is considered a
more credible person. Double standard.

Fight back or stop pretending either a) you are doing what Kerry should have
or b) you know how to defend against virulently racist swift boat attacks.

[NightWatcher]

1. 25 days, maybe he's keeping it till his Oct 29 30 minute infomercial

he's not about to play all of his cards. He's keeping his ace of spades in his hand until the last throwdown.

Obama knows how to play the game. He has mystified me several times, but it always tends to come out on top.

[Leopolds Ghost]

3. I agree you have to know when to pull the trigger, but the ground needs to be laid.

[backscatter712]

11. Agreed - Obama knows how to play this game.

He's doing tight-aggressive poker, and right now, he's keeping that card close to his chest.

Which is cool - the current ten-point lead shows Obama really knows how to win, and is a better strategist than I am.

If he decides the AIP card is something that will get him some votes, he'll play it at the right time.

Right now, with the Dow crashing and the economy in chaos, that's the thing to focus on - his consistent policies to address the economy, and McCain's flailing and inaction.

[Marsala]

2. Nobody cares, unfortunately

The rabid Palin base would only ignore it, the Democratic base already loathes Palin and the independents would either not care much or be turned off by negative advertising. The AIP makes a nice talking point for Democratic surrogates; it would be foolish to attack Palin officially on that and distract from the all-important economy!

[Leopolds Ghost]

4. So you say. McCain is exploiting the Bradley effect. He is within 4 points in Ohio and FL

That IS the racist, xenophobic Bradley effect in action where a white southern Blue Dog would be up 10 points in those states because racist, suburban whites believe socialism for rich white fuckers will benefit THEM because they LITERALLY believe "we're all in this together" (white people; they identify with rich white fuckers on wall street because they literally feel under attack by dark skinned people for the past 30 years because they are racist, xenophobic and ignorant. And that includes metropolitan area suburban white upper middle class, which is why those northern states are even close.)

[Leopolds Ghost]

5. By the way, the same arguments were made on Kerry's behalf when Kerry was defending a large lead

And being swift-boated but insisted on not counter-punching.

[blm]

16. Baloney - go read the Research Forum thread of compiled data - Kerry countered HARDER than any

candidate EVER did. Which is EXACTLY why corpmedia refused to AIR those attacks. You can't find anything from Clinton in 92 where he challenged Bush1 to any degree that Kerry challlenged Bush2. Kerry's MISTAKE was giving the corpmedia the traditional PREPARED REMARKS of his speech to the Firefighters Convention. They all managed to REFUSE to broadcast that speech. Few news channels even reported the speech occurred. Few left blogs noticed and didn't provide backup, not even DU. Left media was nonexistent then, and Dem spokespeople were all 90s leftover Clintonites uninterested in backing Kerry's attacks on Bush.

[Leopolds Ghost]

21. I AGREE with you on Kerry... it was the Clintonites (Shrum) and blogosphere who wanted to downplay

Kerry's own efforts to attack back.

Folks said "he wasn't his best, attacking isn't his style, he needs to stay positive, save powder"

I'm just saying people are comparing Obama to Kerry unfavorably to Kerry, when Kerry was actually the one
who wanted to hit back hard and Obama is the one who has fully embraced the slightly more conservative
"high road, Washington consensus" playbook.

[mzmolly]

6. K, B and R! Barbara Boxer did float a baloon of this sort tonight

on David Gregory's show.

[KaryninMiami]

7. Maybe they are saving it for the right moment- you know-

when like when they think it's time to announce a new website to trounce the GOP bullshit like when they launched www. stopthesmears.com, the Rural Bus Root and the one last week on the Keating Five. With each of these comes a press release and media attention. Think about it- don't you think they have WAY MORE SHIT about McLame and Palin and connections to BushCo, etc. then they have on Obama-Biden? I'll bet their production and new media team are just cranking them out and will be launching them very strategically during the next four weeks.

Then there's that 30 minute commercial they just purchased-- maybe they will do a montage of the different responses (all of which are fact checked) in response to McLame's bullshit!

They are doing a brilliant job- I'm always blown away by how perfectly they have been orchestrating this campaign.

[Leopolds Ghost]

10. Let's hope so -- if it gets within 5 points they'll steal it and we'll get Prez Palin within 4 yrs.

They said Kerry was saving his powder too. And Kerry did the best he could but his efforts to counteract the swift-boaters were constantly quashed and did not take off on the blogosphere because of online opposition from the Shrum crowd. They kept saying the time was not right to go negative -- they waited until the substantial lead Kerry had was eroded by election day and put within stealing distance...

[KaryninMiami]

17. Believe me- I know this very well- I live in Florida

where we now have paper ballots for backup with our new (easily rigged) Opti Scan machines but IT IS ILLEGAL TO COUNT THE PAPER IN CASE OF A CLOSE ELECTION- only the machines can be recounted. IF we demand that they recount the paper- we have to sue.

[Leopolds Ghost]

8. I apologize in advance for sounding hostile

But look at the number of times people on DU have said "it's different, he's a Republican; we should expect those sorts of attacks from them. None of us care about those sort of attacks; we don't mind if Sarah Palin supports the AIP because we are open-minded Democrats!!"

Open-mindedness and an unwilling to play hardball seems to be the only thing that puts bloggers on the "left" given all the support for welfare capitalism on the "left" in this country. If Obama wins it will not be because he took the high road, it will be because he stood up and fought for the poor and working class which I see precious little of. One of the things you need to do when you stand up and fight is turn the country against your opponent and their substantive policy positions -- which AIP is. Republicans laid this groundwork against 60s liberalism long ago which is why they don't need to do more than sound dog whistles.

[bemildred]

9. Kerry took a month off in August, after the convention.

Obama didn't.

Obama has run an aggressive grass-roots campaign. Kerry's "brain trust" pooh-poohed all that. It was too much work.

Obama is winning. Kerry didn't.

You do the math.

Why aren't you happy that we are winning this time?

[Leopolds Ghost]

12. Obama's doing the same stuff Kerry did, actually. Good and bad.

Reliance on DC (mostly neoliberal) brain trust.

Reliance on what one prominent pollster called "yellow hatted volunteers" over peer to peer -- exactly what tripped up Dean. According to one article (i have to find the cite) Obama spent all summer recruiting volunteers and did not begin to initiate peer to peer efforts in moderate - conservative districts until SEPTEMBER, and as a result, this pollster (who is bullish on Obama's chances) was surprised to find DISMAL early voting turnout in Ohio.

AND refusing to go on the attack in late October which Obama WILL need to do BEFORE McCain character-assassinates him (even if you can afford to lose 11% lead by election day, you can't afford to lose your goodwill and reputation as someone gormless and unwilling to counter these allegations by going after McCain's own associations.)

AND even if Obama can afford to lose half of that 11% by election day, that is enough of an excuse for a stolen election which they are already preparing for; cf. demonization of ACORN and overt acceptance by the media of voter caging as necessary to prevent "fraud" by individual inner-city voters.

The only way Obama can afford to ignore these attacks and be SILENT about Palin's association with a subversive right-wing group is if his positive character ratings actually IMPROVE over the next two weeks.

THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED. Obama is down 10 points -- 10 points! among BABY BOOMERS and older -- the 64 and over crowd.

THEY are why Obama is not running away with the battleground states.

THEY are the ones who folks are refusing to mention AIP to in public, because they regard it as ACCEPTABLE discourse (or unacceptable to attack) but the Ayers thing is somehow not. At some point if you don't fight back, you discredit the whole profession they are attacking -- you discredit ACORN by refusing to punish them for attacking it, by being mealy-mouthed in defending ACORN, you discredit Vietnam Vets by refusing to pull the trigger on negative ad countering Bush for attacking Kerry's patriotism.

If it is unacceptable to denounce AIP or swiftboaters in ads because it's too negative, but it's acceptable to acknowledge the way the Repubs are framing Kerry and Obama's own life story and merely play weasel words, then we are saying AIP is acceptable unlike the 60s radicals whom Dems have already thrown the former civil rights movement under the bus for associating with. You are drawing a distinction and saying right wing radicalism is not sufficiently objectionable. That AIP is unimpeachable.

Kerry would be winning by the same margin as Obama with the same strategy (Obama is merely a better speaker) if the economy had broke in 2004 back when even Dems falsely believe the market was on the up (when we were actually in a hidden stagflation in which the Dow has lost 75% in real dollars since 2001. What makes the economy so much more of an issue for hocked-up "middle-class" voters who are just as bad off then in real terms?)

[bemildred]

19. McCain is toast. nt

[blm]

14. Bullshit - Kerry attacked the swifts and Bush in August and did it HARDER than any candidate ever...

but broadcast media REFUSED TO AIR his attacks after they read the prepared speech he was to make to the Firefighters Convention on Aug19, 2004.

Month off my ASS. Go read the data in the Research Forum - the corporate media DELIBERATELY downplayed or didn't report at all on Kerry's counterattacks on the swifts AND his CHALLENGE to Bush to stop hiding behind them and come out and publicly debate their services during Vietnam. NO OTHER DEM Presidential nominee EVER went that far.

It was the Dem party spokespeople, left media and left blogs who didn't further Kerry's attacks - they took the month off, including DU. Go take a look at the archives here for Aug19 and 20, 2004 and tell me that Dems who called themselves activists were paying attention.

[bemildred]

20. Eh, I like Mr Kerry.

But you gotta admit he lost, and Obama is winning, and it's not all luck.

[politicasista]

13. Because people just love to hate Kerry

Especially when it comes to praising Obama in the same sentence. :sarcasm:

But it's mind boggling that Kerry gets attacked for taking the high road (though he did respond, but the media buried it while giving the liars more coverage) while Obama is praised for taking the high road. :eyes: Never mind that Kerry is doing for Obama what no one, if not few did for him in 04.

Obama is running a smart campaign based on skills and intellect, not just charisma alone. :)

[Leopolds Ghost]

15. If McCain truly repudiates and goes back on these attacks like he did with that "he's an Arab" woman

Then there is no need to pull the trigger.

But if 527 attacks CONTINUE regardless, then it is actually MERCIFUL to McCain
for Obama to unload on PALIN's Alaskan associations with both barrels.

She DESERVES to be demonized and SHE be blamed for McCain's loss.

McCain is merely a flawed politician who got trapped in his own ambition to support the Bush agenda.

Palin actually has an agenda that is anathema to half of America.

[Stinky The Clown]

18. I'm normally a red meater right along with you .... butchyasee .....

..... they're winnin' doin' what they bin doin'.

I don't think they'd hesitate for a **moment** to pull the trigger. nI really don't. But so far, there's no need.

Here's my take on things ......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4211845

[Leopolds Ghost]

23. It's True that, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

i guess I'm just worried that Palin needs to be punished and discredited for her
John Birch tactics which are designed to divide the country like in 1963 just
like the John Birchers did in the Goldwater loss.

[UTUSN]

22. Uh, because nominees get ONE FUCKING CHANCE to FIGHT and if it ain't OBVIOUS

IT'S OVER?!1

[Leopolds Ghost]

24. Not sure what you mean. The fear and anger Palin is spreading is serious.

Would modern-day Dems advocate keeping the high road with Joe McCarthy and not bringing him down like the Navy Secretary did? On the grounds that he would burn himself out...

Would modern-day Dems advocate turning their backs on JFK and MLK for sex scandals, a la Eliot Spitzer, instead of fighting back by threatening to hoist Hoover on his own petard if he continued his overt blackmail program, which is what the Dems had the balls to do back then? (Which is why JFK and MLK weren't "discredited" and thrown under the bus like Kerry, Spitzer, Edwards et al.)

If the American people turn against Palin without knowing about her own past associations, that is called dodging a bullet -- thanks to the lousy economy. Without the stock market crash we would DEFINITELY be arguing here because without the economic crash it would be imperative to go negative on Palin's politically unacceptable associations.

It is an act of mercy on McCain, frankly. Why blame him for defeat when it is better to discredit Palin?

[UTUSN]

28. I don't know WTF your post says. I supported JK from Day1. He was too polite. That is all. n/t

[anigbrowl]

25. Keep your poweder dry, silly

It's 25 days out, Obama has a convincing lead, everyone says he's the nice guy, and we haven't hit the GOP hard on Palin's Troopergate shananigans, AIP and stuff yet...and why should we? Save them until we need them.

[malaise]

26. Barbara Boxer mentioned it today on David Gregory

of course he changed the subject.

[Democat]

27. Some of us have been calling for Obama to destroy McCain

The economy seems to be keeping Obama up above McCain right now, so I guess he feels it's safe to take the abuse without attacking McCain.

But, if the character attacks start working, we will see if Obama's campaign is really any tougher than Kerry's.

Obama has not been willing to "take the gloves off" yet, but then again, he hasn't needed to.

One thing that worries me a little about Obama is that he was very very slow to respond to the negative attacks before the convention. Let's hope that they learned a lesson then and that they are paying close attention right now.

An example of how tough or not his campaign is will come with the Palin ruling. If Obama and Biden let this drop out of the news, it will probably be gone by next week. If Obama keeps it in the news, then the news stations will have to split time between Ayers and Palin's scandal. Will Obama let this drop out of the news, or will they keep it in the news? We'll see.