you people just don't understand...

[leftofthedial]

we have to give money to the bossman

otherwise, he'll shut down our cotton field

and then where would we work?



SAY NO TO ANY SUPPLY SIDE BAILOUT.

SAY NO TO EXTORTION.

The crap the Senate added to appease the House repukes just makes a bad approach even worse, by letting them add a bunch of wish-list bullshit for the repuke's wealthy owners.

Yesterday's gains prove the sky is not falling.

We are already in a recession. Either fix this corrupt capitalist system, or do nothing. All forms of this bailout plan are nothing more than an additional giveaway to the same crooks who have been screwing us for a generation. Their fear-mongering about depressions and collapsing credit markets are exactly the fiscal equivalent of the king george-unka dick-colon bowel threats of WMD and mushroom clouds over New York if we didn't invade Iraq immediately. Lies and extortion.

[Warpy]

1. I think Reich has the right idea

Pass a scaled down infusion of cash now to hold everything together until January.

Allow the new Congress--likely a Democratic Congress--to tackle the tough problem then, the problem of fixing this economy long term by overturning the idiocy of Reaganism.

I don't want this Congress trying to fix the economy. I do want the banks propped up in the short term.

[leftofthedial]

9. call me cynical if you will

I don't believe the real problem has been identified honestly. Therefore, NO solution is necessary at this time.

This is metastasized cancer. A trillion dollar sugar pill ain't gonna help. The people are the country. The last 28 years prove that the corporations and the banks are the enemies of the people.

[Greyhound]

42. I don't trust him as far as I could throw him (quite a distance with a harness), but

this is at least sane and doesn't pour another $.7T into a black hole.

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. I'm totally with you. The only bailout I would support

is one that involved massive investigations into the fraud and unethical (possibly quite criminal) acts of the CEOs and other leaders, that led to massive fines for them (such as, for instance, the entirety of their pay packages the last few years), and guarantee that none of them would get any public money whatsoever.

And I don't think that there's any real way to do that.

No bailouts, no socializing the risk that they got themselves into.

Let the companies fail and get bought up by others at fire sale prices, enact the regulations that McCain and the rest of the Republicans dismantled, add some new ones, and let the market take care of itself.

It really can take care of itself.

[leftofthedial]

6. give the money to the people

not the broken, corrupt, unsalvageable institutions that serve the enemies of the people.

[jpgray]

3. Why all these sophomoric, provocative analogies on both sides of the bailout?

There was the Katrina photo thread mocking those with concerns about the bailout passing, and the "suckers" photo and this thread mocking those with concerns about the bailout -not- passing. None of them have provided any insight, and none of them address the actual argument of their respective targets--they just provoke people with petty insults and entrench the partisans even further.

[WilliamPitt]

4. Your candidate sucks.

No, wait...

;)

[leftofthedial]

5. jpgray

we can't all be freshmen

[Marrah_G]

8. Because they are easy

This is a very complicated issue. There are no easy solutions.

Simple, yet often badly thought out, analogies are easier.

[Forkboy]

49. It's downright pathetic.

And I'm a complete and total bastard, so for me to notice it must be bad. :)

[Marrah_G]

7. wow.........

First of all:

Monday we lost 777. Tuesday we regained 485. That leaves us Still in the hole 292 this week.

The dow has also dropped past 200 today and we have no idea where it will end up at the closing bell.

The rest of your post is, in my opinion, uninformed garbage.

I will not call you a troll or any other names, but I will say we disagree GREATLY on this issue.

[leftofthedial]

10. yes, the problem here is complex ...

far too complex for us mere mortals to comprehend.

We should just go along with whatever the noble, wise and fully informed geniuses on Wall Street, CNN and in Washington DC tell us needs to be done. Their plan will save us!




If you'd step back just a little, you might see that all those complicated trees are really a forest.

[Marrah_G]

12. I would like the details of what you would do with the economy right now.

[leftofthedial]

17. I would nationalize the financial sector, the "defense" industry and health care.

(which is actually only two things, since our health care system is now part of the financial sector)

...but then I'm a socialist.

If you mean, what would I do if I was in Washington DC today participating in the vote on the bailout, then I'd do nothing. Vote "no" I suppose.

BUT...
I'd work toward ensuring that progressives are elected overwhelmingly in November. I'd work toward ensuring that the criminals of the past 30 years are held accountable. I'd work toward implementing a New New Deal that puts people back to work actually creating something while rebuilding the country's infrastructure and preparing us for the 21st Century. I'd invest in a "Manhattan Project" working toward alternative, renewable energy.

[Marrah_G]

19. I agree with your last paragraph.

[fla nocount]

24. add transportation, communication, development of natural resources

and you would have Canada with Trudeau. Back when they had real leadership.

[leftofthedial]

40. the last great country in North America

was Canada under Trudeau.

[leftofthedial]

45. also see Michael Moore's proposal

DU thread

[Jakes Progress]

34. Oh yeah. And the terrists are gonna get WMD.

So you have to give them an unrestricted war powers act so that we can....

Oh. Sorry. That was the last big rush to action that the bush wanted. But this one is real. Trust him.

[struggle4progress]

43. The stock market isn't a meaningful economic indicator unless stock prices reflect

company earnings rather than domination of the market by speculators. At present, there is tremendous pressure to puff stock prices, so prices don't reflect earnings or investment: it's a big bubble.

[leftofthedial]

46. yep. A huge part of our economy (our Enronomy) is just puffed up bullshit

the reckoning is overdue and this bailout won't change that

[LanternWaste]

11. Therefore, any market gains made in...

"Yesterday's gains prove the sky is not falling. "

Therefore, any market gains made in 1930 "prove" there was no Depression? If not, what is the precise and relevant difference?

[leftofthedial]

14. a. the Dow is not the economy

b. the original "proof" of imminent disaster posited by the creators of the bailout was the falling Dow

c. when greed did what it always does in a "free market" and brought the Dow back up, the creators of the bailout (who really really really want that trillion bucks) shifted their doomsaying to the credit market, which they can more readily control.


the entire financial sector has been on the economic equivalent of steroids for over a decade. the level of the Dow, the "health" of the economy's "fundamentals," etc.--ALL are illusory and grotesquely inflated. The sub-prime mortgages, the vast ocean of esoteric derivatives, the deregulation that allowed absolute vapor on paper to be used as though it were tangible collateral and had actual value...all this is the problem. Our entire economy has become a gigantic bubble full of nothing. Any real solution will include a HUGE downward correction back to reality. The 400-point or so drop this week in the Dow is a drop in the bucket (so to speak).


Eventually, reality bites. It has NOTHING to do with the bailout, which is an attempt to use the coming "crash"/recession to enable a giant ripoff.

[LanternWaste]

21. I was simply applying your statement

I was simply applying your statement, vis-a-vis "proof", to the Great Depression.

[NeedleCast]

13. That's right! Say No!

I mean, Huckabee, Ron Paul, Rush Limbaugh, G. Gordon Liddey all think it's a bad idea. What better company could you want?

Who the hell does this Obama guy think he is to support the bail out?

[leftofthedial]

18. he thinks he's a "free market" capitalist

that's who.

nobody's perfect.




bad policy can make strange bedfellows. My reasons for opposing the bailout are diametrically opposed to the reasons of those you listed. They oppose it because it seems like socialism and isn't "free market" or supply-side enough. I oppose it because it is not nearly socialistic enough and because it is FAR too supply-side oriented.

[unblock]

15. thank you! the politics of SLAVERY is exactly what's needed now!

cool heads must not prevail! we must accuse those who think differently of slavery and extortion!

if that does not convince them, next we shall accuse the of naziism and all manner of sexual perversion!

[leftofthedial]

22. we must never use metaphor or sarcasm when addressing stupid people

we must only do what CNN tells us we must do. we must never, ever, ever think differently.

cool heads are in short supply. cool heads would carefully identify the problem and develop a solution that would fix it. this bailout, in all its forms so far, is the opposite of that. the entire body politic has let bush and paulson stampede them over a supply side cliff.

cool heads would wonder how a 300-point drop in the Dow indicates a Great Depression.

[autorank]

16. Maybe if we give him money, he'll talk to us, be nice for a change;)

:sarcasm: It's our chance to make some contacts, expand our social network.

We should be greatful, right;)


----------------

Let the people who caused it pay the price - CONSEQUENCES.

Great post.

[NeedleCast]

23. Let the people who caused it pay the price - CONSEQUENCES.

You need to understand that this is NOT what would happen. The rich would continue being rich and pretty much everyone else would pay the price.

[NeedleCast]

20. Problem with your comparision

You said:

Their fear-mongering about depressions and collapsing credit markets are exactly the fiscal equivalent of the king george-unka dick-colon bowel threats of WMD and mushroom clouds over New York if we didn't invade Iraq immediately. Lies and extortion.

But you're making a poor analogy. There were no WMD in Iraq, simply a fabrication created by the Bush administration to facilitate going to war. However, there are some very real indicators that the economy is in bad shape. Housing market is falling apart and has been since "the bubble" burst at the beginning of the year (or late last year, depending on your region). Unemployment and inflation are one the rise as the dollar loses ground pretty much across the board. Production in the US is strongly down. Ford's production by itself is down 35% this year. Unlike the WMD mess, there's a LOT of smoke here that indicates a fire.

Saying this is only some fear-mongering Bush regime plan is the equal of sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and singing "I can't hear you LA-LA-LA" as the mounds of evidence that support a very fragile economy continue to mount.

[leftofthedial]

28. we are deep recession bound, no doubt

the entire US economy is one gigantic artificially pumped-up, propped up and puffed up bubble. It has been inflated and inflated and inflated by repuke policy and their fed's artificially low interest rates and by the worthless paper of repuke deregulation for decades now.

this bailout is just pumping another blast of extremely expensive hot air into an already collapsing balloon--a balloon so full of holes that it can't hold the air it already has.

we're in trouble. the bailout won't change that. no bailout won't change that.

[dhpgetsit]

25. We need "Bottom-up" solutions.

The bailout is a "Top-down" solution that ultimately consolidates wealth and power in the hands of the corporate elite.

Investment needs to be in the working class and infrastructure.

[leftofthedial]

30. bingo. say no to any supply-side bailout

Democrats (were there more than a handful of actual Democrats in Congress) should craft a plan that rescues the middle class. Instead, they just take whatever bush hands them and they run with it. Disgusting.

[hfojvt]

26. what do you mean 'we' white man?

The Lone Ranger and Tonto were riding through a valley when they suddenly from the north they saw thousands of Indians on the warpath. They turned south and saw another group of indians on the warpath. Turning east and west they found the same thing. It looked like they were trapped. The Lone Ranger said:
"Well Tonto, it looks like we have ridden to the end of our trail."
Tonto looked at him and said
"What do you mean 'we' white man?"

Anyway, who is giving this money to the bossman? I, myself, paid $0 in federal income taxes last year. In fact, I got an EIC of $55 or so. I did pay about $2,000 in FICA taxes, but my share of the $700 billion in FICA taxes collected is about .00000028%.

[leftofthedial]

31. I heartily thank anyone who has managed not to participate in the US economy

over the last decade.

[hfojvt]

36. I participate

I just do not pay a significant amount of federal taxes. Any more than most other DUers do. I do spend much less than I make, because I think that is the prudent thing to do. It might be the foolish thing to do if the entire system collapses.

[NashVegas]

27. It's Amazing. I Think People Are Talking Out of Fear They've Been Programmed to Have

After all, when you have $10-$20k on your credit cards and a mortgage that's more than two times your salary, it's understandable someone might be in support of whatever bail-out Washington can muster. People who did that fucked themselves in exactly the same way Wall Street fucked itself: by living way beyond their means.

Don't think, not even for a single minute, that the power elites don't love having a huge percentage of the population in exactly that position. It makes tha people their biatch, so to speak.

I could be in favor of a bailout if I see terms that give the lion's share of the benefit to US taxpayers.

[leftofthedial]

32. we need a New New Deal

[SIMPLYB1980]

29. And a lot of us think you don't understand...

This argument is a loser until after the election.

[leftofthedial]

33. in what respect, Charlie?

[SIMPLYB1980]

37. In the respect that what you are asking for can not pass through congress.

We don't have a large enough majority to pass what you are asking for. All it would do is FAIL and then the republicans would have been handed a whole new bag of attack lines with only 5 weeks left till the election. You must be able to see Russia from your front yard to.

[leftofthedial]

38. by far the bet political move is to do nothing

this is seen as bush's bailout

polls show that failure to pass the first one is viewed as the fault of the house repukes

polls overwhelmingly show that the public does not support a bailout.

the congressional "democrats" are once again doing whatever king george wants. :shrug:

[SIMPLYB1980]

41. Wow you are stupid. Glad your not advising the Obama campaign.

:crazy:

[leftofthedial]

44. what a rapier-like retort!

you awe me with your intellect.

Have a nice life doing whatever the TV tells you to do.

[fascisthunter]

48. according to corporate dems.... we should all be good bitches

and sing along to a new tune of..... "it's not a "bailout" Wall Street"..... it's a "rescue" Wall Street, while Americans are left drowning like poor citizens of New Orleans already have. How many examples of the wealthy and powerful screwing the little person do people need to see....? Oh that's right... they'll see it when they have to suffer, but not for you or me.... no sir. Selfishness is bringing this country down....

[leftofthedial]

50. it's the ronnie raygun mantra

greed is good, greed is good, greed is good

[fascisthunter]

54. "Every Man for Himself"... no unity or national purpose

[Spike89]

35. But, we've been saying Bush would destroy the economy

and now that we have proof that the economy is indeed tanking thanks in large part to a totally inept and corrupt regime, we argue that he is lying about it? I'm really confused. I had absolutely no trust in Bush's 1st proposal for a bailout, mainly because he has no credibility. I had more trust that the democrats in congress could revise it, but felt they didn't go far enough probably because of election year politics. I still have hope that the new plan will be more populist, but I don't expect it to really be great. I do think that even though the fear-mongering may be overblown, it isn't anywhere as inflated as the rhetoric leading to the war. In other words, things suck, the solutions we're likely to get suck, but the mistakes that got us in this situation aren't ones we've made in the last few weeks, but rather the result of horrible leadership over the course of the last decade accelerated by the greedy bastards in the Bush administration.

[leftofthedial]

39. the economy is in the toilet. the bailout won't change that.

the bushies are using the failing economy to enable fear-mongering lies about imminent doom.

[SammyWinstonJack]

47. They've already shut down our cotton field and they still want us to finance their thievery.

Just say NO!

[happydreams]

51. K&R. What , if anything, did Obama have to do with this attempt to buy off

the House members opposed to the Monday bill?

[OakCliffDem]

52. Kick

[barbtries]

53. Error: You've already recommended that thread.