Everyone should take a minute and read the wiki on the Great Depression

[NMDemDist2]

Folks around here (and everywhere really) are feeling like it's a con job.

the Wall St assholes are to blame, for sure, but we can't let the economy go down the tubes and I do believe we are days away if action isn't taken

just take a minute and read the wiki and ask yourself "Do we really want to live through this again?"

the 'bailout' won't stop a major slow down in the economy for the next few years, nothing will save us from that at this point, but if we can soften the landing we'll all be better off.

a couple excerpts from the article...

Debt


Crowd at New York's American Union Bank during a bank run early in the Great Depression.
Debt is seen as one of the causes of the Great Depression, particularly in the United States. Macroeconomists including Ben Bernanke, the current chairman of the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, have revived the debt-deflation view of the Great Depression originated by Arthur Cecil Pigou and Irving Fisher: in the 1920s, American consumers and businesses relied on cheap credit, the former to purchase consumer goods such as automobiles and furniture, and the latter for capital investment to increase production. This fueled strong short-term growth but created consumer and commercial debt. People and businesses who were deeply in debt when price deflation occurred or demand for their product decreased often risked default. Many drastically cut current spending to keep up time payments, thus lowering demand for new products. Businesses began to fail as construction work and factory orders plunged............

The problem was that some large, public bank failures, particularly that of the Bank of the United States, produced panic and widespread runs on local banks, and that the Federal Reserve sat idly by while banks fell. He claimed that, if the Fed had provided emergency lending to these key banks, or simply bought government bonds on the open market to provide liquidity and increase the quantity of money after the key banks fell, all the rest of the banks would not have fallen after the large ones did, and the money supply would not have fallen as far and as fast as it did.<13> With significantly less money to go around, businessmen could not get new loans and could not even get their old loans renewed, forcing many to stop investing. This interpretation blames the Federal Reserve for inaction, especially the New York branch.<14>
One reason why the Federal Reserve did not act to limit the decline of the money supply was regulation. At that time the amount of credit the Federal Reserve could issue was limited by laws which required partial gold backing of that credit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression

[FreakinDJ]

1. Actually the Wiki is seriously lacking information

[NMDemDist2]

2. it's a place to start and if there is no liquidity the wheels of commerce

grind to a halt, grinding us up too

[FreakinDJ]

10. If you understand economics this is an honest recount

http://econ161.berkeley.edu/TCEH/Slouch_Crash14.html

[NMDemDist2]

15. that's the whole point, I really don't nor do most people

I just know that if credit dries up so does our economy.

the banks overleveraged themselves and now are pulling back but they are carrying so much bad paper they don't have anywhere to go.

Something's gotta give......

[FreakinDJ]

17. The way Wall St shuffled those papers - no body knows

and here we have the Asian markets demanding we put the fix in prior to 3:30pm Sunday or their markets dump / then our markets dump

[NMDemDist2]

19. and what happens when they hold a Treasury auction and nobody comes

then what?

it's freaky out there and something needs to get changed

[FreakinDJ]

24. What happens when the rest of the world rebounds

and we are here still struggling with the massive debt left behind by a failed bailout

[Irish Girl]

20. ....

Great link, FreakinDJ.

"In later years some, Friedrich Hayek for one, were to claim that the Federal Reserve had created the stock market boom, the subsequent crash, and the Great Depression through "easy money"policies."

I've said it before - the problem is the Federal Reserve Central Bank, a cartel of international bankers who are not elected nor accountable to 'we the people'. The Federal Reserve Central Bank was formed to supposedly stabilize markets. What a god damn joke. They've fucked up our currency to a point of near oblivion now, at their own profit and at the expense of the American people.

NO BAILOUT!

Anyone who has seriously studied the Great Depression knows it was contrived. All the wealthy bankers pulled their money out days before the Crash happened because they knew it was coming. It was the greatest wealth transfer in history, leaving the common folk piss poor while the bankers eagerly rushed in to buy our assets for pennies on the dollar.

[Odin2005]

37. Hayek was a right-wing loon

The Fed is a common target of crazy conspiracy theories from libertarian Austrian School nuts

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. It is a place to start, especially for those who have no clue about those years

and their links, further reference list is a place to follow

[FreakinDJ]

28. No actually its been Freeped

No it tip toes around the rudimentary causes of the Great Depression such market manipulation and monopolies

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. MOST intro articles on the causes tip toe around it

read the Britannica entry? Same story

As I wrote it is a GOOD PLACE to start, not a good place to end.

[FreakinDJ]

34. "Market Manipulation and Monopolies" - Not Important !!!!

Seriously Sir

I have to question your real reasons for posting here

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. You know what I fear? People don't want to do it for one reason

we've got a presnit that has cried wolf quite a few times... we may (and I am with you on this one) have the wolf here... but like the children's story... the boy that cried wolf got screwed when the wolf finally came by.

That is what I fear

This Presnit has created such a mess with the presidency that nobody wants to give him credit, and truth be told if Bush came on the Teevee right now and said... look there is a blue sky outside your window (there is)... I'd have to check it...

And I don't think people really get it, how bad IT WILL GET for sure if we do nothing... and even if we do something it will get bad... people just don't get it

Here is a free hint to many of the skeptics... the USPS... they are handling very little mail right now. They are expecting normal volumes for the rest of the year during the Christmas season... chew on that

[sendero]

7. There is a wolf no doubt..

... but buying him off with 700 billion of taxpayer money with NOTHING in it for the taxpayer except maybe, just maybe the downturn won't be quite as bad... ridiculous.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. You do know the plan no longer has the 700B as the operative number

but rather 250B

Behooves people to read the bill

Will not go into the rest of the details at this point... except to say that whatever Paulson proposed in 3 pages has been not operative for a week, which is a lifetime in political terms

:banghead:

[sendero]

35. Yes..

.... but hear this. When I read that Paulson BALKED AT LIMITING EXEC SALARIES, that was all I needed to know.

If there was a real crisis, do you think someone is going to put up a wall over a trivial issue like that?

And lastly, I'm well aware that the proposal/counter-proposal changes by the hour. I don't give a shit, if it doesn't involve an EQUITY STAKE for the taxpayer and LIMITS ON EXEC COMPENSATION on bailed firms, I AM AGAINST IT.

[FreakinDJ]

36. Stop sounding like a "Bush Apologist"

The plan still relies on the Failed policies of "Trickle Down Economics"

[thunder rising]

11. I agree, can we limp along till Jan? The House Republicans are doing a nice job of hosing the works

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. We may, but the longer we take the least effective it will be to

keep credit going.

As to the party of values... they are religious fanatics and I wish the leadership realized that you do not negotiate with fanatics, you give them an inch they take a mile

[NMDemDist2]

12. we'll have a good Christmas, but I know lots of people who won't

it's damned scary out there and getting worse....

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Hubby works at the post office

they are not going to hire temps this year... this is how little mail is moving through

See it as a canary in the mine

[NMDemDist2]

16. yikes

:scared:

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. This is the kind of data that people don't know

they have seen a slow down in mail for close to a year

Last year it was slow

So this is why I say, the wolf is here, but people don't believe the boy that cried wolf many times

[NMDemDist2]

21. FDR put a moratorium on all foreclosures and the damed 'Pukes won't

even consider helping homeowners at all.

:banghead:

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. I sent letters, faxes and called alraedy

there is some good in just stepping off the table at this point and accusing them of the collapse... and hope average joe realizes that the pukes have done this

But nancy et al are not good negotiators, but rather cowards

[FreakinDJ]

33. I agree - we need to shore up the economy from the bottom

Remember Trickle Down Economics got us here

[FreakinDJ]

31. What I seriously fear is this

If we do offer up $1Trillion to “Bailout Wall St” and they “Take the Money and Run” or the plan just doesn’t work, (got to remember this thing is world wide – not just Wall St) Here we are, the USA, unable to work in a drowning economy, while the rest of the World’s Countries (not duped by Wall St) are able to implement workable solutions and lift their economy out of Depression/Recession.

The USA would remain a 3rd world economy for ever more

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Operative numbers are not 700B any longer but 250B

and perhaps less

Read the damn bill as they are posted every day...

Oh and on edit, the US already is a third world economy and the empire is dead for all intents and purposes

See USSR and its fall for reference

[sendero]

4. There are any number of better things we can do.

.... with 700 BILLION dollars than the ridiculous giveaway proposed by Paulson.

You're falling for the mushroom cloud argument, I am not.

[avaistheone1]

5. We need a better plan than what the democrats and republicans are offering.

I like Senator Bernie Sanders plan, and I do like the progressive economist James Galbraith plans.

The current plan the democrats have puts a little bandaid on the problem and still gives Paulsen too much control. The existing plan will not stop a depression, whereas the Sanders and the Galbraith plans are smarter and will do more to help the economy recover.

Paulsen's mushrooms clouds are bullshit, just like Cheney's mushroom clouds.

[NMDemDist2]

8. no argument that the plan is questionable

but at least we're talking about action.

[avaistheone1]

25. What is the value of action when Congress doesn't understand the problem.

Congress Is not moving in tandem to place new regulations down. Congress has not made an effort to bring in experts for public testimony to seek out the best plan.

Action for the sake of action does not make sense. Bush says "Jump" And the Democrats say "How high?" This is called the disaster capitalsim (author Naomi Klein "The Shock Doctrine"). Create a crisis. Create shock and fear. Then the capistalists come in and exploit the public, in this case the taxpayers. Wake up people. We saw disaster capitalism/shock doctrine in 9/11, Katrina and now this supposed financial melt-down.

How many times do we have to have our heads banged against the wall before we see who is banging it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Having lived through actual disaster capitalism

this is not... read the proposed bill

Why do you think the religious fanatics in the right are balking?

[FreakinDJ]

22. Exactly - we'll have a depression regardless of the Bail out

and the Government will be "Too Broke" to do any thing about it.

This very well could be Wall St. saying "Me first - Fuck the rest"

[avaistheone1]

27. That is exactly what is happening. The super rich are feeding themselves first.

To heck with the rest of us.

Nice pic BTW.

[FreakinDJ]

29. Welcome to Reality Friend