Should 18-year olds be allowed to drink?

[Archae]

I say no.

This whole concept, "Well, the kids are binge-drinking anyway, so we should let them..."

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2008/08/18/ddn081808drinkingage.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=16

"Well, drivers are on the road drunk anyway, so we should let them..."
"Well, people are smoking meth anyway, so we should let them..."

And before anyone jumps on me over pot, I say pot should be legalized.
It doesn't cause health problems like meth does.
Someone smokes weed and drives, bust 'em like we bust drunk drivers.

But the original concept, it's just caving in to the minority of teens who do binge-drink, instead of actually *GASP* enforcing the rules.

[seemslikeadream]

1. no and they should not be able to go to war for fascists and kill people

[panader0]

226. It's kind of hard to tell an 18 year old that they have to go to Iraq

and risk their lives, but they can't have a beer.

[Pushed To The Left]

254. Excellent point! n/t

[tuvor]

2. They already do in Alberta.

It's been that way for decades.

Are things worse there than in the USA?

[BlooInBloo]

3. Offer then a deal: They can either drink OR have a driver's license. But not both.

:rofl:


EDIT: Idea shamelessly copped from Atrios.

[NightWatcher]

7. I'll take the license to party instead

[crim son]

11. That reminds me: when I lived in MA, I had a state-issued ID but didn't

drive, so no driver's license. I COULD NOT buy alcohol with the ID. They required a license. How fucked up is that?

[dysfunctional press]

175. why wasn't the state ever sued over a law like that?

:shrug:

[crim son]

239. Probably because people like me, affected by the law,

don't have a pot to piss in, let alone the wherewithal to instigate a lawsuit. As an older person I see that it's fiercely wrong; in those days I laughed it off and tried to work around the system.

[dysfunctional press]

72. and if they get caught doing the other one, they lose the right to both.

i like it.

[Zavulon]

4. You've just asked for a bunch of old responses about enlistment age,

you know, "If someone can serve his or her country, he or she should be allowed to drink."

It's the most oft-repeated response to any political question I can think of.

And I happen to agree with it 100%.

[Justyce]

12. Or they could raise the enlistment age to 21 too... nt

[Zavulon]

17. I'd sooner support a lower enlistment age than a higher drinking age. (NT)

[dysfunctional press]

73. what does one have to do with the other...?

that's what i've never been able to figure out about that argument- :shrug:

[Zavulon]

184. Being in the military is a huge responsibility, and if someone can handle that

he or she should be trusted to have a drink if the desire is there. So goes the logic, and I happen to agree with it.

If we're going to raise or lower the age of anything, let's raise the age to drive a car.

[barbtries]

5. no

they have bad judgment without being drunk

[Dr Fate]

274. Yes. While bar-flies in their 40's have impeccable judgment. n/t

n/t

[wildbilln864]

6. yes. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. There's no good reason why an 18 year old shouldn't be allowed to drink.

Pearl clutcher brigade be damned.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

9. Fuck the rules

Look at how successful the rules have been so far.

I say drop all drinking age laws and let people make their own decisions. If alcohol weren't made such a forbidden fruit, kids wouldn't bust their asses trying to get as much of it into them as they could whenever they had the chance. It's no big deal, so why make it a big deal?

Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna catch it from every AA member and every Mother Against Drunk Driving. Who cares?

The more we prohibit things, the more attractive we make them.

[mochajava666]

64. I agree, but you had me at "Fuck the rules"

This AA member agrees with the forbidden fruit idea also. I thought prohibition proved that passing a law doesn't magically change social and cultural behavior.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

65. You're easy (and smart)

Tangerine LOVES that in a brand-new DUer. Welcome!

[mochajava666]

109. Thanks

Been a long time lurker since my deep depression from the Bush reelection led me to seek out other people that felt my pain. I really took the other stolen election in 2000 hard. Al Gore is a hero of mine in a world in short supply of heroes and role models.

But back to the topic - If you are considered an adult at 18 according to the courts, and the military, there is no reason to have a drinking age that's different than 18, unless it's lower, like the right to drive a car, or go hunting alone (I could at 14 with a safety course).

People should also look at their local newspaper to see how many alcohol related driving arrests are coming from kids. The vast majority come from their hypocritical parents every time I look my local paper. However, I am from Wisconsin where a designated driver is the one who has a soda for the last round instead of a beer.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

112. I think a lot of us

became almost clinically, but certainly chronically depressed after two stolen elections. DU offers a place to lick our wounds and plan our takeover, so I'm glad you found your way here.

I grew up in an Italian home, where watered-down wine was on hand for kids from the time they could sit at the big table. There was never any mystery about it - it was just a fact of life. Sometimes we could sample a shot of whatever Grandpop or Uncle or Dad was throwing down, on those rare occasions, but all we learned from that was that we didn't especially like the taste. Not one of us ever got into any kind of drinking trouble, and we raised our own kids with that same unfettered access.

There is no mystery about alcohol, except that which we put there. Same with drugs. Same with cigarettes. I'm saddened to find out at this point in my life that my beloved America is still such a Puritanical and misguided place on so many subjects. It seems like anything that might bring pleasure - drink, smoke, sex - is going to cause the Terminally Annoyed to rise up and make sure no one, anywhere, is having any fun.

Anyway, thanks for the back-up and the affirmation, and enjoy DU.

[mochajava666]

125. Your comment reminds me of a Pink Floyd song

Your comment, "I'm saddened to find out at this point in my life that my beloved America is still such a Puritanical and misguided place on so many subjects. It seems like anything that might bring pleasure - drink, smoke, sex - is going to cause the Terminally Annoyed to rise up and make sure no one, anywhere, is having any fun."

Roger Waters put it this way in the album "The Final Cut", the song "Your Possible Pasts".

"By the cold and religious we were taken in hand
shown how to feel good and told to feel bad

tongue tied and terrified we learned how to pray
now our feelings run deep and cold as the clay

and strung out behind us the banners and flags
of our possible pasts lie in tatters and rags"

[Tangerine LaBamba]

127. Whoa!

I'm not a PInk Floyd fan, so I don't know this one, but WELCOME TO DU, kid! You are already a precious addition.

Fight The Force, with everything you've got. The best revenge really is living well. Let us lift our lamps beside the Golden Door and drive them nuts just by being the people we were meant to be.

[Selatius]

10. Drinking age should be dropped to 18.

If you simply criminalize an activity, then you end up with Prohibition all over again. The activity goes underground, where no regulation is possible.

If the drinking age is lowered, drunk driving would still be drunk driving, and dying from alcohol poisoning would still be dying from alcohol poisoning, but the upshot is people who are not doing either binges or driving drunk would not be punished for something European teenagers do on a regular basis.

[offog]

194. I agree with Selatius.

"Underground" teen drinking is what causes the problems with binge drinking. Drinking becomes a big deal and a symbol of adulthood, so they over-indulge.
I once saw a TV news item about the epidemic of binge drinking on American college campuses. One young woman made the point that when these 18- and 19-year-old kids can't go to the bar, they binge drink in their rooms, where no-one is keeping an eye on them, so you get a lot more over-drinking and cases of alcohol-poisoning. If they could go to the bar, the bartenders and bouncers could step in when people got carried away.
I live in Saskatchewan (the province just east of Alberta), where the drinking age is 19. Civilization has not broken down here because 19- and 20-year-olds can drink. Drinking was never a big forbidden fruit for me anyways because I was allowed to have an occasional drink with my Dad from the time I was 16. My parents grew up in Germany, and when they were teenagers, it was no big deal for them to have a shandy once in awhile. (Shandy is a mix of beer and ginger-ale.)

[jtrockville]

13. Of course they should.

I think most of our nation's drinking problems can be attributed to the drinking age. Let it flow. Remove the mystique.

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

14. Yes

18 is old enough to sign a binding contract
18 is old enough to enlist in the military
18 is old enough to get married

All of those things can be vastly more life changing than knocking down a few brews.

[dipsydoodle]

15. Its fine in the UK.

What's the issue ?

[Cronus Protagonist]

102. Ding Ding Ding -- puritanical people is the difference

A lot of people here are hell bent on spoiling the fun of youth and restricting freedom.

[2KS2KHonda]

16. It was 18 for a few years back in 70s-80s. Until the bluenoses and MADD assholes

pressured the feds to refuse highway funding to any state that didn't raise it back to 21.

[SunDrop23]

20. Yes.

[cascadiance]

25. For a while I was legal going to school in Iowa, then moved back to Michigan I was illegal again...

Kinda confusin'! Thought I'd already "learnt" how to drink! :)

[orleans]

76. omg--you were 18 for a few years? how did you do that??

oh, "it" was 18 not "i" was 18.

damn!

i thought you were pretty magical there for a minute.

yes, i remember--it was 18.

[csziggy]

176. Yes, I was in that window between 18 and 21 while it was legal for 18 year olds

to buy booze. For my crowd I don't think it made much difference in how much we drank. Pot was a more enjoyable high.

Remember, the reason prohibition was repealed was to better police how booze was sold. Illegal gang activity connected with mob control of the distribution had gotten completely out of hand and the authorities thought making it legal, licensing the distribution chain and taxing the shit out of it was a wiser method of control.

[Art_from_Ark]

248. I think it was 18 for things like 3.2 beer

and only then in a few states like Colorado and Wisconsin. I think the legal age for the harder stuff was 21 in most states, even in those days.

[AZ Criminal JD]

18. Without question, yes.

If they are old enough to vote for President and die following the orders of the commander-in-chief then they are old enough to drink.

[killbotfactory]

19. Absolutely. And younger kids should be allowed to drink in the presence of a parent or guardian.

Telling a teenager they can't do something adults do is like waving a red flag in front of a bull. This idea that people are just complete imbeciles who can't be trusted not to eat paste until they are 18 or 21 is ridiculous.

[Edweird]

21. It *WAS* 18 in many places until 1984. That's not very long ago.

Really. What's the big deal?

Edited to add:
Any 18 year old that wants it can get it. You may need to be 21 to BUY it, but only 18 to SELL it. You don't need a degree in rocket science to figure out the rest.....

[Gormy Cuss]

110. Any 16 year old that wants it can get it.

That was true when the law was 18 and it's still true today. For that matter, it seems pretty easy for 14 year olds to get booze these days if they're so inclined.

[stillcool]

22. Yes. They are adults in every sense..

I don't understand the correlation between drunk driving and the drinking age. Kids still die around here, but many are under the age of 18. Maybe they should wait to get a license until their 18. Hell with the prices of gas, maybe they will.

[Ian David]

23. Only if you want them to sleep with you.

What?

WHAT???


WHAT'D I SAY WRONG??

[orleans]

77. !!!

:spank: :spank: :spank:

[sharesunited]

24. Or enlist in the armed services?

[cherokeeprogressive]

26. Only if we allow them to drive and send text messages at the same time.

If colleges and universities are allowing "binge drinking" on their campuses, they should keep drunk students from LEAVING said campus.

[JVS]

27. Only when accompanied by a lecherous 28 year old.

[Iggo]

28. Yes.

If they are adults at 18, then they are adults at 18.

If not, then change the age of being an adult back to 21. But to leave it as it is is just stupid.

(LOL @ "...is is...")

[Rockholm]

29. They can drink at 16 in Austria.

[philosophie_en_rose]

30. No.

In my day, we feared the law, when we drank at 18. And we liked it!

[Cleita]

31. As a former bartender I say yes for these reasons.

Once a kid graduates from high school s/he is soon to be eighteen. S/he will be entering a different world whether at work or at college, maybe getting married and having children, where their co-workers and peers will be old enough to drink and this will be their social network from now on. I think it's better for newbies to go along with more mature friends and co-workers into drinking situations where they will be taught, hopefully, responsibility goes with the new freedom and maybe even protected from the unsafe, binge drinking that happens when a group of teenagers get together with illegal schnapps.

When you are underage and your friends and coworkers all go out on Friday for happy hour, or they go clubbing on Saturday night and you are left behind, you will do what you can illegally to become one of the guys, whether it's getting a phony I.D., or getting a wino to buy you a bottle. There won't be an older and wiser friend to take your keys and keep you from driving if you have too much, or who will let you know what an ass you made out of yourself the night before. See once you go to work, can vote, can get married and are otherwise considered an adult even though you may not behave like it many times, you should be able to get a drink with other adults and many of them will be older and more experienced in drinking to guide the inexperienced and keep them safer than they would be drinking illegally.

[Wanet]

32. Young Adults need to learn how to drink alcohol responsibly

If they want to drink at all. The best way to learn to drink responsibly is to do it at home in a normal setting (have a beer while watching the football game or a glass of wine with a fancy dinner). That way it's not a glamorous forbidden fruit. I follow this plan with my 18-year-old son and it seems to work. He likes Guiness --Wanet

[orleans]

78. (we could have drinking classes in school...?) n/t

[bananas]

237. We have basket-weaving, why not beer-drinking? nt

[Fleshdancer]

33. I think an honest conversation on America's views on alcohol is needed

The question I have is why is binge drinking so popular? Well when the only conversation regarding alcohol discusses the "evils" of it and young adults are constantly told what not to do and moderation and responsibility are rarely addressed, what do we expect?

We deal with alcohol in this society the way we deal with sex. We stick our heads in the sand and hope that telling young people to "just say no" is enough. Then we pretend we're shocked if they get pregnant or binge...or both.

If we're serious about reducing binge drinking, then let's address binge drinking instead of assuming that age has anything to do with it.

[Tektonik]

34. 16 year olds should be able to drink

[RB TexLa]

35. Yes. I don't see any problem with 15 year olds drinking, we all did growing up and no one thought

anything of it. It was just a part of life.

[kdmorris]

36. Well, you started with "drink"

And went on to say that we shouldn't let them binge drink. There's a big difference, in my opinion.

Yes, I think that 18 year olds should be allowed to drink. As with any other adults, I think it's very bad for them to binge drink and, of course, drinking and driving should be punished just as harshly.

But, if an adult (i.e. 18 year old) wants to have a glass of wine or two with dinner, I think it's stupid for us to make that a criminal offense.

The law has stated that an 18 year old is legally an adult. We allow them to vote, to go fight our wars for us (even against the wishes of their parents) and to sign documents that are legally binding. And by stating that an 18 year old is an adult, we should grant them the rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES of an adult. So, yes, they should be allowed to drink and they should be allowed to accept the consequences of drinking too much and doing it at the wrong time.

It isn't the same concept as saying that "people are smoking meth anyway, so we should let them". It's not a matter of letting them because they are going to (possibly) binge drink anyway. It's about letting them legally be adults and have the rights and responsibilities that go with that.

[TexasObserver]

37. Yes. If 18 is the age of majority, then that's the age of majority.

[valerief]

38. Hell, no. Let them all dehydrate. nt

[RC]

39. The drinking age vs adult for everything else is

a just another psychotic symptom of this neurotic country.

[dysfunctional press]

40. rather than trying to change laws- universities should adopt zero-tolerance alcohol policies.

if you're a minor, and you're caught drunk- you're out. expelled for the semester(at least), no credits, no tuition or room&board reimbursements(those monies could be put into a trust to provide scholarships to under-privileged youths)

within a couple years, there would be no alcohol problems to speak of.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. LOL

:crazy:

[dysfunctional press]

68. why?

the law's the law.
and believe it or not- there are underage college students who don't drink alcohol, and do just fine.

is that really all that hard to understand?

and i'll bet that if the university insurers decided to crack down hard in a financial manner- the universities would come down hard on the students in regard to alcohol..

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. Couple reasons.

1. "zero tolerance" is for nazis and assholes.

2. Colleges are places of academic freedom. They've got no business getting involved with what their students imbie.

[dysfunctional press]

145. if they have no business getting involved- why are they calling for laws to be changed?

:shrug:

zero-tolerance policies are already in place in MANY MANY educational institutions, so the concept wouldn't be anything new or unfamiliar to the students.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

150. If all the educational institutions jumped off a bridge, would you do it too?

Your reasonings keep changing.

[dysfunctional press]

151. how have any of my "reasonings" changed?

please explain, because i don't see it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

152. You've argued they should do it because drinking's against the law...

then you're saying you're not in favor of criminal punishment, then you say they should do it because other people do it, yada yada yada.

I mean, if you're going to be a goof off, at least be internally consistent.

[dysfunctional press]

154. i didn't say i'm not in favor of criminal punishement...

i said that i wasn't advocating for it.

and where did i say they should do it BECAUSE other people do it...?

iirc- you have a long history of comprehension problems when it comes to the actual meaning of words.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

155. What's your major malfunction?

You said they should be punished for the crime they commit, then you said you're not advocating criminal punishment.

Obviously you're just fucking around with us, only I don't see the funny part.

[dysfunctional press]

157. my point was about what the university reaction should be-

that's why i was not advocating the criminal punishment angle in this thread.

universities generally aren't responsible for doling out criminal punishments.

the crime angle was brought up by someone else, and i responded.

please- work on that whole comprehension thing okay? maybe take a class...? :shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

158. They should take the law into their own hands, eh?

Punishment for the crimes, just not criminal punishment.

:eyes:

[dysfunctional press]

159. punishment for breaking university policies...happens every day.

without having police involved, even.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

160. But you cited criminal law as a reason for this absurd "zero tolerance" nonsense.

You haven't got a good reason why an 18 year old student shouldn't be allowed to drink, except "because it's against the law."

[dysfunctional press]

162. the same could be said of plenty of behaviours that are against the law.

the point is- it IS against the law, and since the ages have been raised to 21 from 18, there HAS been a positive effect for society overall. if it weren't, the general public would be DEMANDING the age be lowered. they aren't.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

266. Agree 100%

I think that colleges are doing (and told to do) far too much interfering in students lives. Schools should all be a place of refuge for people who actually want to learn. Want to binge drink? Fine. It's not the schools business, so just keep it off of school campus. As long as you're not on their property, the school shouldn't care if you are getting wasted, smoking pot, whatever (I would be willing to have potential disciplinary action if the student in question was CHARGED with a violent crime. Hearsay shouldn't be enough. If there is no record, then they shouldn't care).

[dysfunctional press]

270. i was probably unclear on the zero-tolerance aspect-

as it would apply, from the university standpoint- only to students on school property or at 'official' school functions off-campus. although i would also say that campus bars wouldn't be able to admit those under 21.
but- if minor students live off-campus, and want to spend their college years drunk and stupid- fine. as long as they don't show up for class all shit-faced- it's their business.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. What reality do you live in? Serious?

[dysfunctional press]

67. well- who can argue with logic like that...?

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. I am sure you've heard of... prohibition

you want something similar in colleges?

Free clue, kids will CONTINUE to dring... they will continue to binge

It will be worst in fact

Time for this country to mature vis a vis alcohol. We need to accept that drinking happens and that we need to teach RESPONSIBLE drinking

And yes, I picked up many of these kids as a medic... but like with drug use... it is a loosing battle

[dysfunctional press]

94. how is enforcing the existing laws for minors "prohibition"...?

the VAST MAJORITY of minors do not drink, let alone binge drink- and they seem to do just fine.

and the college age kids that do- may still drink, but they won't do it at school. and if they cost mom & dad the tuition & dorm money, they might actually learn something in the process.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. You sure of that fact?

I am sure I dreamt the fourteen year old we took to the hospital with alcohol poisoning

Or the cops imagined the many undercovers where kids were sold alcohol

Speaking from that POV of the reality in the streets... it ain't working the way it is done right now

It is time for this puritan country to grow up...

[dysfunctional press]

96. which fact are you referring to...?

(btw- last time i checked there were WAY MORE than just one fourteen year old in the country...:shrug:)

i never said that NO minors drink- i said that the VAST MAJORITY don't.
and it's generally not a good idea to endanger the well-being of the vast majority to accommodate the losers

although the alcohol industry would probably tend to disagree.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. I guess some facts are in order

http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/nhsda/1997Main/nhsda1997mfWeb-66.htm



http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13246.html

Just a random google search.

Fact is... the US has a serious underage drinking problem... and it is time we wake up and smell the alcohol

One of the links is bad, hence removed

[dysfunctional press]

113. over 2/3 of the minors have NO alcohol use.

pretty sizable majority.

and obviously no reason to lower the age to accommodate the scofflaws.

but since the whites have the highest numbers, some bigots idiots are going wring their hands and rend their garments and cry about the "plague" that has descended upon us as a society.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

131. How is an 18 year old a minor? nt

[dysfunctional press]

143. that would depend on the laws regarding alcoholic consumption...

which defines it as such.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

169. Yet when that same "minor" violates those laws s/he is treated as an adult by the court

Kinda inconsistent, dontcha think?

[dysfunctional press]

172. minors are tried as adults in lots of cases that don't involve alcohol.

it's not some kind of anomaly of the legal system.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

173. That whizzing sound you hear is my point, going over your head. nt

[dysfunctional press]

178. so...what is your point?

:shrug:

you said it was inconsistent- i was pointing out that in terms of the legal system, it really isn't...

[Selatius]

182. His point was that should be corrected.

Yeah, if you define a minor by alcohol consumption but try him as an adult, that is pretty inconsistent, but just because there are other areas in law that have the same inconsistency does not automatically justify the inconsistency being discussed now. It's the fallacy of appeal to common practice. Just because it's common practice does not make it right necessarily.

[dysfunctional press]

185. right or wrong in the case of societal laws is based on what that society wants.

ours doesn't want kids drinking alcohol.

[Selatius]

191. That's the issue being disputed. Otherwise, this thread wouldn't have started at all. nt

[dysfunctional press]

197. but it's not really in dispute.

not everything that gets a thread is a major issue.

[musicblind]

209. It should be in dispute. I guarantee you if a poll was taken in America

the vote would be to lower the drinking age.

[dysfunctional press]

215. wanna bet?

voters tend to like safer roads.

when given the opportunity to do so on the ballot, many communities/voting districts will/do vote themselves dry.

[musicblind]

208. While I do not drink and have never been drunk I am aware that those statistics are not true

I have looked at the statistics in my psychology classes... and no. the vast majority DO drink.

[dysfunctional press]

216. i'm sorry, but you're wrong.

http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/nhsda/1997Main/nhsda1997mfWeb-66.htm

they're just a very vocal minority.

(btw, just a hint- four words SURE to make eyes roll and stomachs turn: "...in my psychology classes")

[apocalypsehow]

238. I'm sorry, but at this point you're just embarrassing yourself. Pretty much every sub-thread here is

littered with your intellectual refuse, and a variety of different posters have quite properly ripped your "logic" to shreds on point after point.

But by all means keep posting - the rest of us will keep :rofl:

[dysfunctional press]

240. apparently you haven't read the sub-threads through to their conclusions...

go back and try again.:hi:

[apocalypsehow]

249. Oh, I've read them alright. And so has everyone else...

A pitiful intellect trying to "save face" on a message board is always a quaintly amusing - if somewhat pathetic - farce to watch unfold.

But thanks for the laughs. :thumbsup:

[dysfunctional press]

259. no problem...

although next time you might try reading up on the subject so that you have something of substance to add to the conversation, and you'll do a better job of "saving face". sorry it didn't work out so well for you this time around. :hi:

[apocalypsehow]

276. Yeah, it's a crying shame your reading comprehension skills are two steps behind your typing ability

And constantly behind, at that. But I figure there must be some reason you enjoy seeing your mind-numbingly bizarre and factually barren meme's demolished one by one by any number of posters - must be a tweety "thrill up my leg" sort of thing, like a fetish.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

56. You are Soft on Crime. I say life in prison and confiscation of all assets. -nt

[dysfunctional press]

69. kind of extreme. i'm not even advocating criminal penalties-

although in some cases, it may be warranted.

i don't see where "confiscation of all assets" would even be a consideration or why you'd think it would..:shrug:

[enki23]

144. your penalties would be *far worse* than the criminal penalties

and they would fall far more heavily on the poor than on the wealthy, like such idiotic schemes nearly always do.

[dysfunctional press]

146. actually, the penalties would fall more heavily on the guilty.

nt

[enki23]

153. talk about not addressing the points raised in a post...

.

[dysfunctional press]

156. okay- how would the penalties be *far worse* than those for underage dui's?

:shrug:
(your just saying it does doesn't make it so)

as for falling for heavily on the poor than the wealthy- that's a complete red herring, because the same could be said of ALL punitive laws/fines. a zero-tolerance policy at least makes for equal treatment for all groups/individuals.

[enki23]

161. Because failure to complete one's degree *will* have life long consequences

And being forced to drop out with no financial recompensation, for any length of time would be increasingly likely, as you move down the SEC scale, to result in exactly that failure. Wealthy students would be able to absorb that sort of a penalty with much less trouble. Obviously, it's already more difficult for the lower SEC students than the wealthy students, whether your scheme were implemented or not. It does not follow that it is, therefore, acceptable to exacerbate the situation further with draconian penalties for an extremely common, nonviolent offense.

[dysfunctional press]

163. i never said that they couldn't complete their degree.

there's always next semester and another school.

and as was stated- wealthy people have the finacial advantage in ANY kind of punitive situation- does that mean we should do away with all laws...? :shrug:

[enki23]

207. reading isn't your strong suit, i see

neither is compassion, justice, or a sense of proportion.

[dysfunctional press]

213. and you're entitled to your opinion...which will change as you mature.

you'll see.

[enki23]

221. Since you have no idea what my age might be...

you can only be defining "maturity" as level of agreement with your argument. I'd tell you that was tautological, but... for one, you haven't given me much confidence you have the intellectual horsepower to comprehend that. More importantly, it's not even an argument. Seriously, are we supposed to compare publications now? CV's? Or are you actually arguing that age alone will bring us all into agreement? Leaving aside the fact that you have no idea what my age might be, do you really believe it's inevitable that we all end up as senile old dodderers screaming at the kids to "get off ma lawn?" Is that the ultimate stage of maturity? If so, I'm damned glad I've managed to avoid your version of it so far.

[dysfunctional press]

223. apparently you haven't yet learned that people's attitudes change as they grow older...

since that was the grand total of what i had posted.

(but nice of you to try and read/work so much into it- i appreciate the effort.)

[enki23]

272. jesus, it' like talking to a brick wall

only two or three standard deviations below the brick wall mean.

[apocalypsehow]

82. That's one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen on the internets. n/t.

[dysfunctional press]

92. and what a wonderfully thought out argument against it...let me address it point by point...

:eyes:

[apocalypsehow]

98. I wouldn't waste much time arguing against "abortion doctors should face the death penalty!"

"arguments" or other similar freeper "logic," either. And that's exactly the tone, tenor, and intellectual level at which your post resides.

:eyes: , indeed.

[dysfunctional press]

119. calling for laws to be properly enforced is "freeperish"...?

and what does "abortion doctors should face the death penalty!" have to do with underage drinking? :shrug:

you sound a lot like someone who's to lazy or uninformed to even attempt to support their "argument"(?) when casting aspersions is so much easier.

go crack open a cold one -you've earned it...:rofl:

[apocalypsehow]

122. No, calling for college students to be expelled from college because they drink a beer is not

"freeperish" per se, it is simply stupid. Pretending you don't understand that simple concept is what's "freeperish."

You sound a lot like someone who spends a lot of time trying to play at the witty, learned and wise game, rather than just actually being so.

:rofl: , indeed.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

133. Actually, you could make an argument that's highly freeperish.

1. It's extrajudicial, cruel and unusual, and on par with vigilanteism.

2. It's anti-intellectual. Is he calling for 18 year olds to be fired from blue collar jobs? Nope.

3. It would certainly be selectively enforced against minorities. So it's ultimately a pro-segregation argument.

[dysfunctional press]

139. colleges expel students for breaking public laws and school rules all the time...

why should this be any different?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

166. Most rules have reasons, this one would simply be arbitrary.

The only practices which one can justify prohibiting or punishing are those which are immoral or harmful.

This would simply be arbitrary, and deeply illiberal.

[dysfunctional press]

174. since it would involve a broken law as well as a broken rule, it wouldn't be arbitrary.

university students in college towns are already treated much less harshly in regard laws regarding not just alcohol by authorities than those young adults who don't have the same level of privilege so to have gone off to college. that's one thing that makes this attempt by some administrators to further shirk their share of the responsibilityall the more ridiculous.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

129. To treat your absurd proposal more seriously than it deserves...

This wouldn't have the effect of stamping out drinking, any more than similar approaches have stamped out drug use.

Stamping out drinking among 18-year-olds would be a bad thing, not a good one - they should be allowed to drink, because they want to. Reducing binge-drinking would be desirable, but not at great cost.

Your proposal would lead to ruining the lives of an awful lot of young people who haven't done anything wrong or harmful, except violating your puritanical and arbitrary expectations of them.

So, in summary, a solution that wouldn't achieve it's desired goal but would have major costs, for a "problem" that doesn't need to be solved.

I don't drink (not for alcohol-related reasons, I just don't like the taste of anything except orange juice), but I will fight to defend my friends' right to do so, once they're of an age to make such decisions (arguably 16, but a case for putting it has high as 18 could certainly be made).

[dysfunctional press]

148. young people who haven't done anything wrong or harmful, except violating your puritanical..."

"...and arbitrary expectations of them."

actually, that's entirely incorrect- what they would be doing is breaking the law.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

164. Hence "wrong or harmful", rather than "illegal".

You could pass a law making eating fish illegal, or breathing.

That wouldn't make doing it immoral.

[dysfunctional press]

179. there are jewish dietary laws against eating shellfish...

and yes, the ones that observe those laws would consider eating it to be immoral.

go figure...

most societies consider it immoral to break the law.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

183. I'm not a theologian, and it's not relevant, but actually I don't think that's true either.

I *think* most Jews regard "not eating shellfish" as a challenge God has set them, rather than as a moral thing in itself, and that while they would regard eating it as a failing in most circumstances, "immoral" isn't a word they'd use.

That's a religious commandment rather than a law, though, and rather different.

Most societies consider it immoral to break the law, because in most societies the only things that are illegal are immoral. In a society with laws against things that weren't immoral, like the law you're proposing, that might not be the case.

Your whole argument is circular - "young adults should be banned by law from drinking because it's immoral; it's immoral because it's banned by law".

[dysfunctional press]

186. where did i say that young adults should be banned by law from drinking because it's immoral?

:shrug:

(here's a hint- i didn't.)

[Donald Ian Rankin]

219. Um... Posts 40 and 179?

In post 40 you say that young people should be banned by law from drinking.
In post 179 you try and justify that by saying that it's immoral, because it's breaking the law.

[dysfunctional press]

222. that is some convoluted comprehension you're trying out there...

(i don't dare call it logic).

here's what you said about what you thought i said:

"Your whole argument is circular - "young adults should be banned by law from drinking because it's immoral; it's immoral because it's banned by law".

"In post 40 you say that young people should be banned by law from drinking."

here's what my post #40 (including subject line)says:

rather than trying to change laws- universities should adopt zero-tolerance alcohol policies.
if you're a minor, and you're caught drunk- you're out. expelled for the semester(at least), no credits, no tuition or room&board reimbursements(those monies could be put into a trust to provide scholarships to under-privileged youths)

within a couple years, there would be no alcohol problems to speak of.

please point out to me where i say that young people "should be banned by law from drinking"

here's my post 179:

there are jewish dietary laws against eating shellfish...
and yes, the ones that observe those laws would consider eating it to be immoral.

go figure...

most societies consider it immoral to break the law.

where do i say that drinking is immoral?

do they even try to teach reading comprehension in wherever it is that you were...educated?(for lack of a better word)

[Donald Ian Rankin]

258. Now you're just tying yourself in knots.

Denying everything that you've been arguing and then trying to fault me for pointing it out is foolish.

If you have changed your mind, and now *don't* think that 18-20 year olds should be banned from drinking by law, then good, but you should respond to all your posts in this thread arguing the opposite to indicate that you no longer support them.

[dysfunctional press]

260. no- you put words into my posts that weren't there.

otherwise, you'd be able to answer the very simple questions i posed to you in the previous post.

but you obviously can't...:shrug:

better luck next time.

[gmudem]

251. So it's not possible that the law is stupid?

Gay marriage is against the law in many states. I guess that means it is immoral to have one in those places.

[dysfunctional press]

261. if you go by the social mores that determine morality, that would be correct.

in those areas.

:shrug:

[musicblind]

211. a law that is wrong and does a lot more harm than it does good.

[dysfunctional press]

217. what is the "good" of 18-20 year olds drinking alcohol?

:crazy:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

257. What is the good of anyone drinking alcohol? Why not bring back the 18th Ammendment?

The good of 18-20 year olds drinking alcohol is that 18-20 year olds *want* to drink alcohol.

And one of the principles of a free society is that people should be allowed to do what they want, unless there's a damn good reason to stop them.

[dysfunctional press]

262. 18-20 year olds want to do lots of things...

thank goodness we have laws to reign them in.

[Selatius]

135. Philosophically, I disagree completely with your answer. It is too totalitarian a response.

Demystifying alcohol by lowering the drinking age would be one way towards making college students not bust their asses off trying to get alcohol and not drinking simply because it makes them "cool" without having to remove a third of the entire campus for being guilty of alcohol consumption. It hurts the school financially by decreasing student rolls, and it punishes a population's future prospects at becoming a better skilled workforce, which has international ramifications in terms of competitiveness in trade and commerce. It is cutting off your nose to spite your face, as the saying goes.

Your solution is, in short, not acceptable to me. By criminalizing an activity, you drive it underground where it cannot be regulated when the better solution would be to regulate the activity. This was the prime lesson learned from Prohibition that too few understand.

[dysfunctional press]

149. the activity is already criminal.

if the companies that insure universities and college-town bars were to decide to crack down in a financial manner on those who allow underage drinking on the premises- what do you suppose the reaction of those businesses/schools be in regard to underage drinking?

at what age do you think it should be legal to buy alcohol?

[Selatius]

180. It should be decriminalized, but my point of criminalization was in response to your proposal.

Your proposal is a zero tolerance policy, which as far as I know does not exist on many college campuses at all. There's usually a disciplinary "ladder." If such a proposal were instituted, likely the school would automatically stand to lose up to a third of its student body. It hurts the school in terms of getting financial aid from the Dept. of Education, since they use student rolls as one measure of how much aid to aim at that school, and it is philosophically too authoritarian for my taste.

My answer is to forget the zero tolerance policy, drop it to 18 or perhaps even lower, and regulate the activity instead of driving it into the underground where no regulation is possible. It's like nobody has ever been to Germany, France, or the UK, and as far as I know, their universities are as good if not better than ours.

[dysfunctional press]

188. you do realize that there are 18-year olds attending pretty much every high school in the country?

it sure will make them the most popular people on campus...especially by lunchtime.

we've had 18-year old drinking in this country, and as a society we've found that a higher age works better overall.

no need to re-live past mistakes, despite what a tiny minority might not think all the way through.

[Selatius]

192. That's a conclusion that is debatable at this point. nt

[dysfunctional press]

198. not really. the numbers; and the attitudes of the vast majority aren't all that "debatable"...

but- that's part of how the country works- even the smallest minority are completely entitled to have their say.

[Selatius]

232. The numbers are debatable. Correlation is not necessarily causation.

Just because the number of drunk driving accidents has dropped since the 1980s doesn't mean raising the drinking age to 21 was the reason. A lot of interest groups that cite that as evidence often overlook the proliferation of mandatory seatbelt laws in the states since 1985 at the same time.

[dysfunctional press]

241. how do seatbelt laws affect the number of drunk-driving accidents?

where/what is THAT correlation? :shrug:

the fact remains- our society prefers the drinking age where it is. whether or not raising drinking age was responsible for the drop in accident rates, the time frame certainly makes it appear so in the public mindset- and in our system, that's all it really takes.

[Selatius]

243. Whoops, I meant fatalities related to drunk driving.

And you're right on the last point, unfortunately. However, I still disagree on your proposal for a zero tolerance policy. It strucks me as somewhat illiberal.

[dysfunctional press]

264. i'm not a big fan of them myself...

but if i had to choose- i'd MUCH prefer a zero-tolerance policy regarding alcohol on college campuses than a return to a drinking age of 18. we've already been down that road as a society, and we decided that it was not the way to go.

[musicblind]

212. A third? In my 8 years in college I did not meet a single college student

who had not at least tried a beer.

[dysfunctional press]

218. and you met the vast majority of college students in america, and quizzed them about beer?

wow.
i'm impressed.




:rofl:

[mudesi]

195. LOL! Best response in the thread

Do you know how many students the universities would have left if they did that?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[dysfunctional press]

196. the ones who are serious about their education and futures?

who'll all benefit from the smaller class size and shorter wait for a shower.

[gmudem]

252. Stop talking out of your ass.

By your logic it's not possible that a college kid who drinks could be serious about their education. Well I can tell you with certainty that you are just dead wrong. I'm not disagreeing with your opinion, I'm saying that you are flat out wrong and therefore your argument is nonsense.

[dysfunctional press]

263. that's completely incorrect.

i've known plenty of 21-year old students who drink and are completely serious about their education and their futures.

[gmudem]

268. Uh, you're just corroborating my argument.

There are also 18,19,20 year olds who are drink and are still quite serious about their education. The law is dumb and doesn't work one bit.

[dysfunctional press]

271. society has determined that it's a maturity issue.

18-20 year olds have in general been deemed not to be at that level yet.
and the binge-drinking teens only help to support that argument and perpetuate society's current collective opinion.

[gmudem]

250. Easy to say for someone who's not in college

Drinking is fun. It's that simple. And the reason why 21 is so stupid is because any teen, especially in college, can get alcohol if they want it. If you kicked out every kid who drank in college there would be about 8 students left. And drinking does not make you a bad person and it doesn't mean you are getting bad grades either. If drinking is affecting your grades than a student should take it down a few notches, but if you can have fun on the weekends while still doing well in classes I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed to drink.

[dysfunctional press]

269. it sure is.

:evilgrin:

[Pryderi]

41. Yes.

[SteppingRazor]

43. Of course. You tell a 19-year-old back from Baghdad that he can't have a beer.

It's ridiculous.

[Bluebear]

46. You said it. nt

[flvegan]

47. Bingo.

Totally sums it up.

[romulusnr]

49. i call bs

they'd have to enlist at 16 to be back from iraq at 19. :P

[SteppingRazor]

52. Hmmm.... Tours of Iraq are 12 months. So if you leave when you're 18...

you're back by 19. Am I missin' somethin' here?

[TahitiNut]

57. You're missing basic training and AIT. (Or "boot camp" for sailors.)

:shrug:

[SteppingRazor]

61. Basic's 9 weeks, AIT is 8 or 9 depending on what you're in for...

so, again, what am I missing here?

On edit: And in this case, I'm asking out of genuine curiosity -- I'm certainly no expert on these things.

[foo_bar]

71. probably the smiley face (@ "stop loss policy"?)

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/dod/quallsrums120604cmp.pdf

[romulusnr]

167. yeah...

Yeah, about 5 years of constantly extending tours and rapid recall of deployments and a bit of hyperbolic cynicism.

[Enthusiast]

103. I agree! And

I remember when we were being drafted and sent to Nam and still not allowed to vote. It was ridiculous! The 21 year old drinking law will not stop 18 year olds from drinking.

[Coleslilwitch]

190. That's the right answer

If an 18-year old is able and ENCOURAGED to go over to that hellhole and be shot at, shoot people and die, then he/she should also be able to have a beer if he/she so desires. There is no excuse to allow one but not the other. You can be married, sign legal binding contracts and everything else at 18, so drinking should also be included.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Yes, in fact, we should remove limits

there was a time when we served children, you read right, CHILDREN, twice brewed beer to take care of the nasties

These days you'd go to jail for doing that.

It is time for this country to grow up regarding alcohol and sex...

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fishwax]

50. Why impose/enforce rules that only serve to make problems worse?

[earth mom]

51. Hell to the NO! nt

[DailyGrind51]

53. No drinking and no enlisting in the armed forces!

[TahitiNut]

54. No. The minimum age should be the same as the minimum age for the Presidency.

Alcohol is toxic. It kills brain cells. VERY few Americans can afford to lose more brain cells ... as is PROVEN by the Smirking Turd in the Offal Orifice.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

58. Yes, I also thing 18 year olds should be allowed to run for President.

They'd have as much chance as any other third-party candidate anyway.

[NuttyFluffers]

100. and sex only allowed as the same age of retirement!

only responsible people who knew how to labor well for the state can have sex! i just want responsible people having intercourse.
:evilgrin:

[TahitiNut]

229. Swilling toxins = sexual intercourse???

Wow. Sounds like fetal alcohol syndrome to me.

[Selatius]

137. The president did cocaine when he was in college. That probably killed far more brain cells.

But I'm just saying. :shrug:

[KakistocracyHater]

55. The male mind tends to 1 track

& it is usually boys who try to 'relax' by using drugs-even non-human animals eat rotten/fermenting fruit to get tipsy. A lot of girls also drink & you have to confront what's really pressuring them: are you a square? To put it in 50s slang. Too scared? Too uptight? Not cool enough, are you?

The second point is not to be sooo against it that it pushes them to it, don't make a big fuss, but remember those who've ended up in wheelchairs, braindead, bodily dead-BUT teens suffer from the "but that won't happen to me" syndrome, aka inexperience.

[Anexio]

59. You've to fight, for your right, to partaaaayyyyy!!!!!!

Sorry, someone had to say it.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

60. It was legal to drink when I was 18 and I never abused it. Kids that will binge drink will find a

way to at 18.

[Dukkha]

62. you can also be a homeowner at 18

but no drinking inside your own home! bad!

[pansypoo53219]

63. I think i started 'having sips' of the demon liquor at 8 or earlier.

my mom said nothing when i polished off a bottle of brandy somebody had given her(maybe 1 teaspoon in my coke). my brother and i don't drink. i barely. hate beer.
unless alcoholism runs in the family, i see nothing wrong with it. if you can die for your country, you can have a beer.

[Neshanic]

66. Yes. Your dope smoking and driving comparison is hysterical.

[OhioChick]

70. Yes

If an 18 year-old can be shipped off to war, then why not.

[FogerRox]

74. No relation of drinking age & drunk driving deaths

In NY state the last year of the 18 yr drinking age saw the largest drop in drunk driving deaths in the 18-25 age group. 16% IRRC. NY bumped it to 19 (9%), then 21 (7%).

The effect of having a color picture on the front page of Newsday showing a van crushed by a train, killing 7 or so people (the driver was drinking) plus cops started being really into pulling over drunks and warning or making arrangements for a ride... did way more than anything else...

Awarness does way more than changing the Drinking age.

Groups like MADD have made a living off this issue, they disgust me. Where was MADD NY chapter in the years before NY changed the drinking age to 19...

....the NY chapter of MADD didnt exist then...

The largest drop in NY in drunk driving deaths in the 18-25 age group happened when MADD didnt exist..... LOL.

A change in enforcement and media attention changed awarness. Not any group, or any law.

[NutmegYankee]

75. YES. If your an adult at 18, then what the hell?

Seriously!

[carlyhippy]

79. 18-year-olds are going to drink whether it's legal or not

I don't think they should be legally able to do so myself....I remember in Texas the drinking age was 19 or 20 when I was around that age,at the time it was great fun, but in hindsight I would say that young being able to legally drink was a bad idea all around.

[tnlefty]

80. As someone who grew up when 18 was the legal drinking age,

and a mother of an 18 yr. old, I can say that I'm torn about this issue. Yeah, I drank when I came of age but I never hurt anyone and this was years before the dangers of drinking and driving were made known.

I've told my kids since they were young not to even think about drinking and driving nor to think about riding in a car with anyone who has been drinking. This message was repeated often and intensified as they became teenagers. Call home, call a cab, but don't drink and drive and don't ride with anyone who has been drinking. They see me drink beer or wine, and they know that I won't drive after having a beer or a glass of wine, so they witness my living what I tell them. They also know that I'm no where near inebriated after that one beer or glass of wine, just that I won't drive.

If parents are trying to teach their kids about the dangers of drinking and driving, and I've talked to mine about the dangers of binge drinking (the potential of alcohol poisoning among other things) perhaps it would be okay?

At 18 I wasn't a binge drinker, but I did buy wine as presents.

[apocalypsehow]

81. It should be the same age at which one can be drafted to fight in a war, or tried as an adult

in a criminal proceeding.

And please, spare me all the "research" and "studies" about the bogus "their brains aren't fully developed" bullshit.

If they're old enough to be drafted into the military to go fight a war with deadly weaponry at their disposal, or old enough to be sentenced to death for a crime they've committed, they're old enough to drink a bottle of belly-wash beer. Or lots of them.

[backscatter712]

83. Yes. You're an adult at 18.

If you're old enough to have sex, drive a car, vote, go to war, you're old enough to drink.

I don't want to hear it from the paternalists trying to protect people from themselves.

[Errrica]

84. Word

I'm eighteen. Speaking from experience, alcohol is not hard to obtain.

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. Trust me, I know...

and if you live close to any international border it is even easier

[readmoreoften]

85. Nor should they be able to marry, enter into contracts, go to war, or drive a car, vote, etc.

Fuck it. 18 year olds are probably too young and stupid to handle college too. No one should do anything until they get out of college. And if they don't go to college it doesn't matter because they're poor.

[SoCalDem]

86. Forbidding it is working so well , why change it?

:sarcasm:


Binge drinking in college has always been with us, and anyone who knows a person 21, can get ANYTHING they want..

Do they drink & drive?..yes..

Does the fact that it's illegal, stop them?..NO

legalizing beer & wine would go a long way to actually stopping the binge drinking, because if they could legally go get a beer, they might be less likely to have an older person buy them a shitload of hard stuff, that they would need to consume in a hurry.

[readmoreoften]

87. In many European countries, the drinking age for beer and wine is 14 and 18 for liquor.

People go on their all night party beer binges at 12 and 13. By 14 they're hanging out at nightclubs trying to look "mature". By 18 they're over it, and interested in mature pursuits such as college and career development. Sure you have a few on the weekends, but who doesn't?

Our culture keeps people infantilized until middle age.

[Withywindle]

88. Yes.

It's been said before: either you're an adult or you're not. How exactly is drinking a bigger responsibility than joining the armed forces, voting, getting married, getting your own place, signing legal contracts...? It's not. It's something that people ought to be learning how to do sensibly in their teens.

Now, mind you I think 16 is a ridiculously YOUNG age for driving without supervision. I think that should be added to the 18 list. I also think drunk driving--for ALL ages--should be prosecuted much more vigorously than it is.

It's our car-dependent culture that renders most of the comparisons with the (far wiser, IMO) drinking attitudes of Europe unrealistic over here. I think drinking should be treated with a lot more sanity and a lot less puritanic frothing, but drunk *driving* should somehow be rendered a social taboo on par with having sex with dogs in public.

[HughMoran]

89. I started drinking at 14. Was grandfathered at 18 when the age was upped to 21

I always thought the change was a stupid idea - it's not like kids don't drink anyway - they just do it away from view. It forces your children to lie to you (or me).

[AuntPatsy]

90. Yes they are considered adults at eighteen....

[bridgit]

93. They can join the army and die, may as well set'em up and play it again, Sam.

[rucky]

101. No. It would take all the fun out of underage drinking. n/t

[Lyric]

104. Yes. You're either an adult at age 18, or you aren't.

And your premise is flawed. The expected result of lowering the drinking age is to lower the rates of binge drinking, not legalize it. If the legal drinking age is 18, college kids are going to be less likely to drown themselves in The Forbidden Keg the minute they're out of Mommy and Daddy's eyesight. Parents can start dealing with teaching their kids to consume alcohol responsibly *at home*, rather than being forced to let the kids muddle their way through it on their own. However, these are my thoughts only, and many people disagree.

A reasonable compromise might be this: maintaining a 21-and-older age limit for drinking in bars, at sports venues, or at other large events, and set the legal limit for drinking within the confines of a private home at age 18, and perhaps a "with parental consent in a private home" age of 16. That would allow parents to help their teens learn to consume alcohol responsibly without putting them at risk of being imprisoned for their efforts. Another good deterrent would be to make the penalties for drinking and driving FAR more severe-for example, getting your license revoked for 3-4 years automatically on the first offense.

Our current laws are useless. They are entirely too harsh on underage drinkers, and entirely too lenient in regard to the REAL problem--drinking and driving.

[JHB]

105. What "concept"? An 18 drinking age is hardly theoretical...

...It's the 21-age limit that has been the Great Experiment for the last two decades. Information on what happens with an 18-yr cutoff is available both from history and from other nations.

Furthermore, the 21-limit isn't the result of any rational deliberation. It was the result of a train-wreck of political compromises. Why shouldn't it be re-evaluated in light of some 24 years of experience?

And what makes you think it's just "caving in" to a minority of teens who break the rules? I've always complied with the drinking law, even when I was legal and then suddenly illegal, back when it was passed. I complied with the law for as long as it affected me. I still think its wrong, and the lower age should be restored. And I'm now a job-holding, tax-paying, bona fide adult, haven't been a "teen" for about twice as long as I was one.

[JCMach1]

106. Here is a modest proposal- if we lower drinking to 18, how about we raise drivers licenses

to 21!

That way, at least, bodies and motor control should be fairly evened out so young people can drive safely.

[El Pinko]

107. Yes, since they are adults.

I'm pushing 40 and think our strict alcohol laws create a verboten atmosphere that encourages the binge drinking that is so common here and so rare in countries with reasonable drinking ages.

And the harmless weed God put on the side of the road, cannabis? That should be legal too.

But things like that would happen in a sane society, not one that doesn't even ask questions of its maniacal "leader" when he decides to commit mass murder on a defenseless country for essentially no reason whatsoever...

[Hobo]

108. Absolutely

If they are allowed to die for their counrty, they ought to be able go down to the corner bar and have a beer.

Hobo

:beer:

:toast:

[drexel dave]

111. Should adults be allowed to be treated like adults?

Kids should be able to drink. Where there is no drinking age, the whole forbidden fruit thing doesn't rear it's ugly head.

America's Puritan tradition is what makes it such a shitty place, socially.

[napi21]

114. Eighteen UED to be the legal drinking age in some States!

I'd be very interested to find out if there was a change in 18-20 yo DUI's after they were forced to move that age to 21.

I grew up in Pa, and we had 21 as the legal drinking age, but in NY, it was 18. There were LOTS of weekend visits to NY back then. Especially from towns that were fairly close to the State border.

[Lance_Boyle]

115. Absolutely they should.

I despise the US Two-Step to adulthood. First you hit 18, when you are "legally" an adult. At that point your parents are no longer under any legal obligation to continue to support you; you can vote; if you're male you can be drafted. Adult. But then there's the three-year wait before you can be FULLY adult, and buy alcohol. This process turns alcohol into the penultimate symbol of adulthood, when it's really just a tasty beverage. I far prefer the approach of taking the mystery and "forbidden fruit" aspect of it away early in life.

[RobofSWVA]

116. Yes

If someone is 18, they are considered rational enough to vote and join the armed forces. How can we justify giving them an equal say in government or issue them machine guns but deny them a beer? It's silly.

As other posters have mentioned, we need a real discussion about alcohol in this country. When ever the issue comes up, all we get is the emotion side. People can be taught responsible drinking habits. Are drunk driving incidents unfortunate? You bet. No one wants to lose a loved one and non of us are happy when we hear about it. However, don’t punish the majority because of a very small minority.

Alcohol just needs to become far less taboo for Americans.

[goddess40]

117. The brain is developing so I vote no

The longer one can avoid poisoning a developing brain the better.

I also don't think 18 and 19 year old should be sent into combat zones.

We need to let there brains finish the delicate wiring job that's still going on.

[HuffleClaw]

118. what is needed is a complete ban on advertising of alcohol

for a start.

[sourmilk]

120. Every other Western Nation has less restrictive drinking age laws...

I can't think of any other nation that has more problems with teenage binge drinking, though some are very close...

http://www.icap.org/PolicyIssues/YoungPeoplesDrinking/AgeLawsTable/tabid/219/Default.aspx

[erpowers]

121. Our Society

I think the real problem with binge drinking in America is a product of our society. I do not know anything about other countries and how they treat drinking, but look at our society and our music. How many country songs do not mention drinking. Brad Paisley has a song out called "Alcohol". It is possible that the song tries to be a cautionary tale about drinking, but it could also be taken as making fun of being drunk. In addition, there are other songs with lines like "you ain't much fun since I quit drinking". Now, I am not against these song, in fact, I really like "Alcohol". However, I think this country might need to start talking about the dangers of abusing alcohol and informing kid about what could happen if you drink too much. It might be time to tell young people it is okay to drink, but do not drink so much that you do not know where you are or what you are doing and do not drink and drive, in that you are not only putting your own life in danger, but also the lives of people who chose not to drink and drive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df53LWQuezQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqm2dPbGUDc

[liberal N proud]

124. Old enough to die for the country

And if anyone thinks that 21 stops teens from drinking is lying to themselves. When I was 18 I graduated left an 18 state to go to school in a 21 state. Drank more that first year in the 21 state than my friends did in the 18 state over same period.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

126. Of course they should.

The idea that 18 is old enough to vote, marry, serve in the army etc, but not to drink, is absurd, I think.

[Lemonwurst]

134. This old idea was never tried

I always liked the idea considered here in MA back around 1980, when the age went from 18 to 20...

18 in restaurants and bars, but 21 to buy in packies or any other place that sells booze.

The premise:

1) Young adults learn to drink in an appropriate social setting
2) The cost per drink in an establishment, and existing restrictions on serving any intoxicated person, makes it much tougher for them to get inebriated
3) Underage drinking doesn't necessarily increase. Those 21 and older are less likely to have social contact with, and a willingness to commit a crime for, kids 17 and younger.

In this country, we can give an 18-year old an M-16 and tell them to kill, but they can't have a beer?

That's always been the difficulty with the drinking age, and having the draft during the Vietnam war highlighted it. Unfortunately, too many recent statistics prove that the few will ruin it for the many if those younger than 21 are able to drink.

[CK_John]

128. Growing up in the 50's in NYC, drinking age was 18 and voting age was 21. n/t

[mrreowwr_kittty]

130. Christ on a cracker, just raise the age of majority already and get it over with!

Fucking overprotective parents never want to let their kids go as it is. This is what the drinking age is all about BTW. Nosy Mommies and Daddies of college kids trying to meddle in their lives. So I say raise the age of majority. Once all the parents who don't send their kids to college or don't want a dependent around for 3 extra years see what's happening maybe they'll get pissed off enough and demand that we restore some sanity to this country.

[SmartPat]

132. YES! 18 the drinking age should be changed back to 18

If you're old enough to be killed in Iraq you are old enough to drink a beer with your Dad in a restaurant.

[Regret My New Name]

136. yes... at 18 you're an adult in the eyes of the law, no?

So, unless that is changed then I don't see why drinking should be any different.

[paulk]

138. yes

it's not about binge drinking - that's a strawman - it's about responsible use of a legal drug - in this case alcohol.

PS - Gordon Gee is a fucking moron - he was President of Colorado Univ. for awhile there - a pompous little asshat whose opinion isn't worth squat.

[Regret My New Name]

141. werd...

If someone is going to have a problem with drinking then they are going to have it whether or not there are laws or not. At the most it will simply delay the problem for a few years... but that probably wouldn't even be the case since 'kids' can get alcohol if they really want to.

[otherlander]

140. Yes, they should be, but it's not really that important.

And I say that as a person who's turning 18 very soon.

[Greyhound]

142. When will we figure out that PROHIBITION DOES NOT WORK?

Never has, never will.

[tburnsten]

147. I don't think it would be a big problem. Maybe 19 though

just to keep those pesky seniors a little further from it. I don't know, they are eligible for military service, why shouldn't they be eligible for consumption?

[NashVegas]

165. Actually, 15 Year Olds Should Be Allowed to Drink

And among family, many are. Or at least were, when I was 15 and allowed to have a glass of wine with holiday meals.

Americans need to grow the fuck up on some things. One of them is learning to use moderation of what is a beneficial, natural product - when it's not taken to extremes.

[Evoman]

168. It should be completely legal for people of any age to drink.

Although, I would keep the bars at 18...but that's more because of the meat market aspect than the drinking.

[DailyGrind51]

170. No, but their parents probably need to!

[tammywammy]

171. Yes n/t

[pee_wee_herman43]

177. The universities should concentrate more on recovery programs

[minerva50]

181. Yes

I was in college when they lowered the drinking age in Maryland to 18. It meant we could drink on campus (they put a rathskeller in the student union), instead of risking lives (our own and others) cruising down to DC to party.

[wolverinez]

187. NEWSFLASH - most 18 YO's drink anyway

nm

[dysfunctional press]

189. newsflash- actually...most don't. about a third do.

nt

[mrreowwr_kittty]

193. LOL. I was in the military for several years, where there is a zero tolerance drug policy

They used to conduct surveys on active duty servicemembers about drug use. Only 5% would admit to using illicit drugs. I used to joke that I must know all them personally because, trust me, the figure was way higher than that among the people I served with. People lie to pollsters about stuff like this. No way in hell only 1/3 of 18 year olds are drinking.

And if the number is that low, why are you so hellbent on keeping it illegal for them?

[dysfunctional press]

199. because i drive on public roads too.

kids, alcohol, and cars don't mix.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

201. Neither do old farts, alcohol, and cars.

There are already laws regarding drunk driving on the books. If an 18 year old has a beer or two and doesn't get behind the wheel of a car, what's it to you?

[dysfunctional press]

203. too many of the DO get behind the wheel of a car, though.

the statistics bear it out- the roads are that much safer since the drinking age has been raised.
and as far as the old farts go- i think that there should be yearly testing after age 72, for one thing- as well as something along the lines of a dr.s release saying that the person isn't prone to blackouts, severe heart problems, etc...

as far as 18 year-olds drinking in the privacy of their own homes- if they can get the booze, then that's their business. as long as they don't go out and make it other people's business.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

204. But if an 18 year old walks to the store to buy a six pack, s/he can't.

Because busybodies like you make sure of it. As for the roads being safer as a direct result of the drinking age, that has never been proven. The roads are safer for a lot of reasons, not the least of which are seatbelts, airbags, child seats, and anti-lock brakes. The drinking age is nothing but neo-prohibitionist garbage.

[dysfunctional press]

206. oh well- that's life. get used to it. nobody agrees with every law- but we all live with them.

it's part of being an adult.

btw- "busybodies"...? in what respect? because i like the roads to be safer? didn't i say that what kids do in the privacy of their own homes is just fine? "busybodies" don't have that attitude about it.

and you know what? the drinking age was 21 when i was 18 too. our society has determined that's how we want it to be.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

210. "it's part of being an adult"

Head. Desk.

[dysfunctional press]

242. cabbage. end table.

:shrug:

[Rosa Luxemburg]

200. yes, in the UK the drinking age has been 18 for years

the only time I remember anybody going crazy with alcohol was at college where they used to drink pints upon pints of beer (yard of ale).

[mwooldri]

247. Most decent sized universites in the UK have student unions featuring bars...

... my alma mater - University of Dundee - has one of the biggest student unions around... I remember it having 5 different bars including one large hall used as a nightclub. During my time there they kicked out the bookshop and built ... another bar.

Yes there was plenty of drunkenness going on... myself included. Yes I binge-drank on a few occasions too.

Mark.

[cherokeeprogressive]

202. I think they should be FORCED to drink...

while sending text messages on their cellphones from behind the wheel of a speeding Cadillac Escalade as they're blasting rap on their thump-thump speakers and trying to communicate with someone in the back seat.

Yeah, I think that's perfectly safe.

[musicblind]

205. Personally I think we should lower the age to 16.

take a hint from other countries such as Austria. They're right about a lot.

[musicblind]

214. I bet the people who are all "Hell no" are all old people

outside of a small anomaly here and there.

Or at the very least over the age of 25.

[laureloak]

245. Your definition of "Old" is over 25?

Maybe the oldies know a thing or two about what's good for the kiddies. Having actually been there-done that, maybe the "old" people want to spare others the consequences they suffered.

Here's something for you to look into: The brain is still growing until about age 25. How does the consumption of alcohol impact brain development? Is it worth the damage?

[RidinMyDonkey]

220. Yes, they should lower the drinking age

I was 18 just a little over two years ago. It's so easy for kids to get alcohol as it is, we might as well let them buy it and make some money from them. Personally, I don't drink and I'd rather see Marijuana legalized. But, it's not about caving in. Having to be 21 is just stupid in the first place. It's completely freaking ridiculous that a child could be sent to war at 18 but can't have a drink until their 21.

[doc03]

224. Absolutly if you are old enough to serve in the

military and give your life for the country you are old enough to drink.

[Lilith Velkor]

225. Yes, because they are legally adults.

[defendandprotect]

227. Your "10 year old" is, of course, an extreme; however. . . .

in Europe children were regularly given some wine -- they grow up with it ---

and as kids in my household, we were always given some foam from the top of a beer

if we wanted it --- most of us didn't like the taste of it.

It's a long way from this idea to trying to control adults ----

And, I'd say that 18 year olds are adults --- especially if they can be drafted ---

or pulled into military service!!!

[Hippo_Tron]

228. I have a compromise solution about this, what do people think?

One of the problems people have argued with regards to lowering the drinking age to 18 is that high school seniors will buy for 15, 16, and 17 year olds.

Now as someone who supports lowering the drinking age I will fully admit that this could be a problem. Not that I didn't have easy access to alcohol in high school, because I certainly did. But it was probably more controlled since often parents would buy it instead of kids, although sometimes we would find ways to get it ourselves.

So, here's the compromise. 18 to drink legally and to buy open containers. 21 to buy closed containers. In other words, if you want to go to a bar and have a drink you only have to be 18. But if you want to buy a case of beer or a bottle of whiskey, you have to be 21. 18 year olds can possess closed containers, but they can't buy them, which will largely solve the problem of high school seniors buying for their younger friends.

This would more or less keep the current system but allow 18-20 year old college kids to drink in the open instead of having to hide it.

[RidinMyDonkey]

230. But we already have people over 21 who buy alcohol for minors

The first time I got drunk was new years eve when I was 14, I went to a party where the host's father bought enough alcohol for every child in attendance. That's not the only instance I know of a parent buying alcohol for not only their children but for the entire neighborhood, not to mention older brothers and sisters who almost never say no to supplying alcohol. 15,16,and 17 year olds already drink, and it's not hard for them to get. I don't think anything will change on that front if the drinking age is lowered.

[Hippo_Tron]

233. Oh I know we do

But there is concern that if we lower the age to 18 we will have more people buying alcohol for minors. So this compromise would address that.

[RidinMyDonkey]

234. I suppose, but I think the concern is silly

What difference does it really make if they get it from their 18 year old friend or from their 21 year old sibling or their 40 year old parent? They'll just find someone else. If they're desperate enough they'll ask people outside the liquor store, which could be damned dangerous.

[distantearlywarning]

231. Yes. n/t

[mdmc]

235. yes

[HooptieWagon]

236. Since you asked

I think 15 year olds should be allowed to have a drinking "learners permit" (ie: with parents), and be allowed to drink at 16. However, drivers licenses should not be allowed until 18. Debate if you like, I just think some out of the box thinking is needed.

[laureloak]

244. If old enough for selective service then old enough for a beer. nt

[TankLV]

246. if they're old enought to die for their country, they're old enough to drink...

either lower the drinking age or raise the soldier age...

[dysfunctional press]

265. what's one got to do with the other...?

:shrug:

[eshfemme]

253. The problem is education and attitude about alcohol.

My stance is the same as sex education-- when you are informed about sex (and don't rely on rumors or hearsay), you are more likely to be smarter about it. So I think the same way with alcohol-- I think restricting the drinking age nurtures a prohibition-era type of thinking, which just encourages drunkenness. I mean, alcohol consumption basically skyrocketed and was the reason for the sudden explosion of organized crime rackets during the Prohibition. Even when alcohol was relatively harder to procure, it basically encouraged people into a type of lawlessness, which I can see an equivalent in with kids. When kids don't see alcohol as the forbidden fruit, they are probably less likely to be pressured into drinking it.

My personal disclosure-- I tried alcohol before in college but didn't like it so I refrained despite pressure from my peers to do so. I will do social drinking as in sips but I've never gotten drunk before. But I am the exception to the rule-- most people who turn the magic number of 18 drink just because they are finally doing something that was taboo for them. So I kinda prefer the French attitude about alcohol where they are blase about it-- it tends to discourage binge drinking and drunken frat behavior.

Usually, when you forbid someone from doing something, they'll be contrary and want to do it even more. Hence, why abstinence-only sex education fails and why underage drinking is common.

[brettdale]

255. The drinking age here is 18

An dit has caused nothing but trouble.

[Pushed To The Left]

256. Yes. If they have to register for the draft and can be tried as an adult if they commit a crime,

then I think it is hypocritical to not allow them to drink. Either 18-year-olds are adults or they are not adults.

[MadHound]

267. America's societal attitude towards alcohol needs to change completely

It is still mired in the tee-totaling, Puritan religious roots that it came from. This sort of attitude makes alcohol attractive to young people, thus leading to binge drinking and other alcohol problems.

I was raised in a Midwestern U.S./German town at a time when it was still quite German(went to a German language school my first few years, that should tell you something). We had a winery in town, and there was Maifest and Oktoberfest, and we kids would have wine with the meals on special occaissions, beer too. Hell, my uncle let me have my first sip of beer when I was four, and laughed when I promptly spit it out, disgusted and wondering what adults saw in the stuff. Alcohol was no big thing, no big bad temptation out there, it was simply a beverage to be enjoyed once in a while. This is, essentially, a European perspective on alcohol, one that can be found there to this day.

There were no real alcoholics in town that I knew of, and the kids of my generation for the most part didn't go out binge drinking, driving, etc. Sure, we'd get looped once in awhile, but nothing near what I've seen in other places by other young adults. To this day, I rarely drink, and none of my old playmates and classmates, as far as I know, are heavy drinkers.

Alcohol is pumped up as the great forbidden, great temptation in our society. Kids and young adults have legal drinking held out in front of them like a bucket of water in front of a thirsty horse. Is it any wonder that when they get access to this dangerous, forbidden, pleasure they go completely overboard, some for a few years, some for the rest of their life.

Do away with age limits on drinking small quantities, with parents present. Do away with the Puritan forbidden fruit attitude towards alcohol, and I imagine that you'll see a lot of your current alcohol problems done away with also.

[NashVegas]

273. Wine Has ITS OWN GOD

Sometimes we go so far to prove how civilized we are that all we end up doing is shoving our heads up our own asses.

[dpbrown]

275. Of course - old enough to decide who to vote for is old enough to know how to stop drinking

It's crazy and patronizing to keep voters from being able to drink.