Sex versus sexism

[panader0]

Face it, sex is how we all got here. (Thanks Mom and Dad) Sexism is when you think your sex is better or higher than the opposite one. I've been in a monogomous relationship for 7 years now, and hope it lasts to the end of my days, but as all people, women and men, I can tell if a person looks attractive. That's sex. Sexism is things like: Women not getting to vote when men did, women making less wages than men for the same job, women put in a position where sex is used to keep a job or get promoted. But to me,
Vive le difference!

[noamnety]

1. How can you tell if a woman "looks attractive"?

Where do your notions of beauty come from, do you think? What influences your opinions on this?

[Squatch]

3. Biology.

[noamnety]

4. No, not biology.

Because the standards have changed quite a bit several times even in my lifetime.

Try again?

[RadiationTherapy]

10. Me just big, dumb man...

me like what shiny magazines want me to like. me no never think never!

[noamnety]

11. Same goes for women.

"biology" doesn't tell us we just like wearing high heels for ourselves (as opposed to doing it to impress others). But I know women who will swear that's the case, they've just always liked how they look/feel, and it's not the result of marketing/culture at all. :D

[RadiationTherapy]

13. You smiled and I won't split hairs, but

we are SO GODDAMNED far from natural in nearly every way, that we could go on and on.

Biology does tell us to impress people, just the tools and rules have changed. High heels; corsets; shirts and ties. It is all pathetic. I met my wife in the woods. We were both nude and feral and it was love at first whiff. We have been socialized since, but still love each other's smell....

[Runcible Spoon]

24. "Biology does tell us to impress people, just the tools and rules have changed"

beautifully summarized!

[Echo In Light]

31. This speaks to a broad dilemma of corporate culture, one that many prefer to disavow

...for what should be obvious reasons. It ties too closely {for comfort} into the notion of conspiracy, which in and of itself is widely trivialized and downplayed.

In other words, if people are ultimately malleable, perhaps even frightfully gullible in many common, day to day instances and perceptions, they may instead prefer to cast themselves as the opposite as what is true: they may claim independence, as in, they prefer to see themselves as making up their own mind free from the directives and coercion of corporate culture, yet, realistically, many of their values, priorities, choices, actions, inactions, etc, are all very much so shaped and impacted by their social climate/environment. Much of what people come to "love" and "hate" are influenced in the same process. Truth has never been popular.

[NashVegas]

18. I'd Disagree

Biology (that of the *attracted*) really hasn't changed all that much, but the magazines, the tv, the movies, and the internet have provided a great many distractions - and created a great deal of peer pressure.

[bananas]

6. Beer makes everybody beautiful.

Next thread: Alcohol versus alcoholism
Face it, alcohol is how a lot of us here. (Thanks Mom and Dad)

[panader0]

Good one

[TahitiNut]

12. Survival... natural selection and the appearance of health or physical fitness.

Most of our longer-lived ideals of 'attractiveness' relate to the ability to work, survive, and be disease-free. Clear complexions, for example, have a long history relating to smallpox and other eruptive diseases (some of which are STDs). The ideals of "farm stock" and the physical ability to undertake nomadic or hunter-gatherer requirements ... or the ability to store fat and survive famine. Women with the physical attributes related to child-rearnig - wide hips, full bosoms - tend to be preferred in the mating lottery.

The faddist "heroin chic" and Playboy stuff is very short-lived stuff. IMHO, of course.

[LostinVA]

23. No body hair

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[LeftyMom]

26. !

racist! :rofl:

[LostinVA]

29. No -- get it right

You're a racist because you shave your pubes. I'm a racist because I support Hillary.

[PVnRT]

39. Personal taste?

Face it, we all look at someone and, at some level, we make a judgment on their appearance.

[noamnety]

2. double post

ugh, that hasn't happened to me in a while. :)

[Iris]

5. You forgot - women being judged by their looks in your list of sexism

Whether you admit or like it or not, this can have a crippling effect on women throughout their lives.

[panader0]

8. Yes, this one is obvious

The same goes for men too. I know a few good looking people with pea-brains.

[Indenturedebtor]

15. Men are too. Please read downthread. n/t

[Hydra]

7. Any time power is involved

As for comments, I can't speak for the ladies, but I prefer you talk to me rather than try to compliment me(Difference of to me rather than about me)

[Kitty Herder]

9. Valuing women for their looks alone is one of the main ways that

women are kept in their place in this modern world. To be considered ugly, we are told time and time again by everyone from the fashion writers at Cosmo, to our high school friends, to our own family, is the worst thing that can befall us as women. We learn to believe that being unattractive means we are undeserving of love, and as social animals, we human beings will do most anything for love. And since every woman can find something about herself that is ugly, (also the result of constant messages in many forms about what is ideal and how we can strive to attain it) no matter how most people see her, that label affects even the "hottest" among us.

The constant messages we women hear are, not in so many words: Get thee to the gym, you fat, ugly, unloveable thing! Put on some make-up, your real face is not fit to be seen (veiling, anyone?)! Spend an hour fixing your hair that could be spent on something more valuable, like improving your mind! Spend thousands of dollars on plastic surgery if you must! Spend your money on lotions, creams and potions, rather than investing it in a business, a college degree, or your retirement! You're not pretty enough to be a T.V. journalist, actress, singer, etc!!

Yes, men are also victims of our looks-obsessed culture, but it's different. No one reduces a man's value as a person to his value as a pretty thing to look at. We think more highly of someone like Bill Gates than we do a handsome actor and we never take Gates' dorky looks into account. If he was a woman, we would hear about it constantly, the way people make fun of Hillary Clinton's legs, or Oprah Winfrey's weight fluctuations.

We women constantly receive the message that we are only as valuable as we are sexy. That's why women go to extremes like those that Cindy McCain appears to have gone to in order to remain beautiful. Listen to how women who don't look like porn stars are made fun of on T.V. Think of how Rush made fun of Hillary and Chelsea for their looks, and they're not even bad-looking women.

This intense pressure to be beautiful cripples women in so many ways. Women who don't fit the ideal are discriminated against on the job. I've seen it at a place where I used to work. (No, it wasn't against me.) It takes up valuable time and money that we could be using for more worthwhile things. It damages our self-esteem, so we don't even attempt things we might otherwise want to do. It puts up a wall between us and our partners that can make intimacy difficult. (Think of it this way men. Well, straight men. If you want better sex, then you need to work against the objectification of women that makes even the beautiful ones feel ashamed of their bodies and ashamed to be totally free with them. And wouldn't you love it if your S.O. didn't get so jealous when you look at other women or at porn? She gets that jealous because we are all carefully taught to compare ourselves to other women and we experience intense anxiety when we feel that we're coming up short.)All in all, it keeps women in their place almost as much as traditional gender roles that required women to stay in the home.

[Indenturedebtor]

14. Much of what you discussed is never going away

And there are very similar things like that for men. Height, musculature, and yes "looks" all play a big factor in a mans success. How many ugly politicians are there out there? How about CEO's, actors, news casters, weathermen, hell even police chiefs. Men judge other men based on their looks without even thinking about it. We're just wired that way.

There have been a lot of studies that found that better looking kids get more time and attention from teachers AND parents. Better looking people in general are more likely to succeed professionaly, etc.

As thinking, ethical, caring human beings we should do everything we can to not be prejudiced towards people based on the symmetry of their faces, or their BMI, but we are hard wired to favor the beautiful. Even babies will stare longer at a conventionally good looking person. You can no more do away with that than with the fact that everyone pees.

Now the face painting and the high heels and the marketing are all quite over done, and can lead to unneccessary self hatred. But I don't think men decided one day that all women would start wearing heels and makeup, and getting pushup bras etc. Any more than women all got together and told men that they had to work themselves to death so they could afford fancy cars and gold watches.

We're still animals you know. We just know how to talk and build stuff.

[ismnotwasm]

16. Lots of short male actors

Beside the point actually. There is the whole old male actor with hot young up and coming female actor. If you want, we can get into the world wide sexual availability 24/7 of women via sex work. Why is that you suppose? Why don't more women want to pay for sex? Think it's hard wiring? Maybe a evolutionary psychology theory something to the effect of women as child bearers want stability and home, and earth to tend, while men want to dream dreams, spread sperm and build things, maybe kill things?

I don't think so. I think there is a bit more to it all.

Bottom line, we live in a patriarchy. Always have, with the merest historical hints of women on any kind of equal footing.

[Indenturedebtor]

17. There are quite a few unattractive actresses as well

So what. Men are judged on looks as well, whether it applies to their profession or not.

I agree we do live in a patriarchal society. But rather than tilting at windmills and trying to stop men from being fixated on sex, why don't we focus our energies on doing away with discrimination. Attacking men for their sexuality is not going to help anyone or accomplish anything good. It's like preaching abstinence only sex ed programs.

We are hard wired to want sex. Short of medication that's not going away. Most of it has nothing to do with "power". It's just sex. Matter of fact, most of the guys I know prefer aggressive intelligent beautiful woment to meek stupid beautiful women. Are they sexist for wanting to have sex with hot powerful women? Would they be sexist for wanting to have sex with a meek beautiful woman? Would it be sexist for a woman to want to have sex with a meek beautiful man?

[Iris]

22. This is not an attack on men's sexuality.

It's just pointing out that it's not all about them.


Oh, right. I see now....

so sorry to have disturbed your entitlement with our silly grievances.

[Indenturedebtor]

34. What entitlement?

Yes I'm entitled to feel any damn way I want to about anyone I want to. It's a human thing.

And it sure as hell comes off as an attack on mens sexuality. Don't group me in with assholes who stand around in a mob and harass women passing by, just because I might comment that a women is beautiful/hot/sexy. There's a big difference between the two.

And ffs most of my close friends in my life have been women, and I don't think i have to tell you that a lot of the crap that comes out of women's mouths is pretty damn nasty and "sexist" by your seeming definition. We are sexual creatures. It's a fine line between appreciation and disrespect, I'll grant you... but lets not go too far the other way.

[Firespirit]

27. Are you ruled by testosterone?

I am sick of the "we men just can't help it, it's an uncontrollable impulse" argument.

And also, going on about how you'd rather violate an "aggressive and intelligent" woman, you prove your own point wrong, that actually, it IS about POWER. It's about "conquering" that aggressive and intelligent woman. We don't use such terms anymore, but the mindset remains.

[Indenturedebtor]

35. Oh please put the firebrand away

And stop attacking your allies. I am not ruled by testosterone but I do have a healthy attitude towards sex. Because I'm attracted to aggressive and intelligent women means that I want to conquer them? I'm sorry for the experiences that you've had in life. I know there are some real assholes out there. I've run into some horrible women in my relationships, but I don't paint them all with the same brush.

Sex doesn't have to be dirty you know... or it can be dirty in a pretty way. Maybe I'm attracted to aggressive and intelligent women because I like to be around people that I respect. Did you consider that or just jump to the conclusion that they threaten my deep seated sense of male entitlement, so I have to subdue them with my man-phallus? Yeah some men are like that. Calling all of us like that does more harm than good and is extremely SEXIST!

I'll say it again - You're being SEXIST.

Just in case you didn't hear me: STOP BEING SEXIST!

Freud was great over 100 years ago, but we know better now. Not all sex is "conquest" or trying to get back to the womb.

[Firespirit]

44. You sure have a lot to say about a person you don't know

I'm a Kinsey 4.5. In case you need translation, that means "bisexual with a preference for the same sex." I've not ever BEEN IN a relationship with a male. I have not wanted any such thing. My views are not colored by personal experiences, but I find it interesting how quickly you assumed that it was an emotional scar (inflicted by a man) that influenced me.

However, I HAVE observed quite a few heterosexual relationships in my friends and family circle, and yes, whether "phallocrats" like to see it this way or not, there is a definite POWER dynamic in heterosexual pairings. The view of the outsider often offers an objectivity that an insider cannot have.

And I'm sexist? Maybe I am. I'll freely admit that I may be prejudiced. But if so, it's not costing me anything, so I honestly don't care enough to change that.

[Indenturedebtor]

45. There's a power dynamic in all relationships -sexual or plutonic

It doesn't matter if it's a hetero or homosexual relationship. People are people. Do you think that women don't play dominance games? Sexism is bigotry towards another sex based on their gender. It is certainly not genuinely appreciating another sex for their differences.

I assumed that it was an emotional scar that colored your perspective because you described wanting to have sex with someone as wanting to "violate" them. Those are pretty damn strong words.

Can I ask you whether or not someone's intelligence and aura of strength affects your level of attraction to them? If they had your desired blend of personality traits and physical attractiveness would you want to "violate him/her" as you say? Would it be conquest for you to want to get nekid with them? Might be... might not. Depends on your emotional maturity. Personally I find respecting someone to be a prerequisite for attraction. I respect strength and virtue. What the hell is wrong with that?

I know that for many men and women it would. Whenever I was in a relationship (as I am now), I've gotten hit on about 10 times as much as when I'm single. What do you call that? Sounds like conquest to me. I had a girl at my last job a couple months ago literally stare at my crotch in front of 3 other girls I worked with, and say "Oh I'm sorry I was totally just staring at your cock." She then winked and smiled at me. Yeah she was a young one... Pretty damn tactless. And she was always rubbing my head as she walked by, etc. Told me I look like some actor blah blah.

Point is... women do it too. Whether it's threatening or not is context, and she was lower on the food chain than me so it wasn't. Kind of flattering :shrug: This is not a black and white area.

-------
"However, I HAVE observed quite a few heterosexual relationships in my friends and family circle, and yes, whether "phallocrats" like to see it this way or not, there is a definite POWER dynamic in heterosexual pairings. The view of the outsider often offers an objectivity that an insider cannot have."
-------

Perhaps you do gain different perspectives on hetero relationships for not being hetero yourself. But I assert that actually living day in day out in hetero relationships probably affords me a more thorough insight. I don't pretend to understand homosexual relationships better than you for having gay friends. Then again from what I've seen they're not terribly different.

And I have to say that though you're right - there are some "phallocrats" out there, most of the people I've chosen to associate with in my life have shown me a fair balance of women dominating and cheating, and vice versa. Who knows, my generation might have tipped the scales quite a bit in the other direction. Many of us were raised to see women as equals. Many women have been raised to see all the worst excesses of stereotypical American Men as a birthright.

Just tonight, speaking with my brother, I learned that one of my childhood friends just caught his wife cheating and lying about it. He was a dog before they got together, but has been faithful for about 8 years now. And as I said, I've been cheated on but never cheated. Because I respect women, and people's feelings in general. And I hardly think that Im special in that.

--------
"And I'm sexist? Maybe I am. I'll freely admit that I may be prejudiced. But if so, it's not costing me anything, so I honestly don't care enough to change that."
--------

Lovely. At least you're honest. How would you feel if I said "I think gay people suck, but it doesn't cost me anything, so I honestly don't care enough to change that."

I think we both want pretty much the same thing. Know that you have many allies among men, and please change your opinion of us accordingly.

[seabeyond]

40. We are hard wired to want sex

women too. go figure. i believe this is the conditioning.

men: we like them young. we like variety. hard wired for sex. come on wives, girlfriends, ... just the way it is men say sheepishly

women need want marriage. women trap men

well you know... women like youth and variety AND sex too. we just dont rub it in our mans face cause their "ego" cant handle it. i would never say the things to my man that men feel they are expected to say to their women and OUR egos are suppose to take it.

men need/want marriage too. not a trap anymore for them than it is for us. souls gravitate toward commitment and relationship, a need for most, men and women. but men cannot admit cause it makes them what? less man. if that were the case, gay men would have the best of the worlds yet here they are fighting for RIGHT to marriage and commitment

so we give women that they need to trap a man. and we give man that he needs youth and variety creating a totally illusional difference that isnt for one ego at the expense of another.

that is sexist, power, control

[Indenturedebtor]

43. I'll agree that many do see it that way

But that doesn't mean that there is no truth whatsoever to some of that paradigm. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that most men do admit that they need and want relationships... and many women feel the opposite about it. Many men don't cheat. I've never cheated in any of my relationships but I've been cheated on.

In every relationship there is an at least slightly more dominant personality and an at least slightly less dominant personality. In my marriage I'm not sure exactly who is what... but even in friendships it works the same way. Doing away with the gender expectations for who is what (dominant or submissive) would go a long way here. Likewise doing away with the stereotype that women don't want/need sex is also important... among many other things.

Men are hardwired to on average want sex more though. It's not a completely unfounded stereotype. I digress.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that yes I do agree that there is a cultural bias that favors men for certain aspects of relationship dynamics: especially as regards sex. But there is also a cultural bias that favors women in relationship dynamics. Men are expected to make more money. Our value is in our production. For example when my wife and I moved here to Tucson (with the same degree), I worked about 80 hours a week to support the both of us in a job I hated for 3 years, because that is my duty as a man. I encouraged her to find a job that she felt comfortable with, and that she would find fulfilling, etc. In the meantime I did permanent damage to my feet, probably my heart, and certainly my dignity so I could protect her. She never asked me to do this but I understood it to be my duty as a man.

How do you think men who stay home and take care of the kids are treated? How do you think it effects a relationship and an ego when a man makes less than his wife? Who gets the kids when there's a divorce?

Rather than attacking the genuine differences between men and women (the ones that are largely derived from biology such as sexual proclivities), don't you think it would be more productive to promote some general ethical ground rules: such as it's not ok to cheat, a women's/mans worth are not defined by how well they fit their gender roles... and most importantly to promote the basics of dignity: biology doesn't excuse behavior. But philosophy doesn't make biology go away.

It's an ugly and fine line to acknowledge the forces of biology (both their positives and negatives), and to fight against their more negative consequences. We don't have a choice but to deal with both the good and the bad. It is I believe much the same as dealing with our powerful emotions. Anger/Rage can be harnessed for good or for evil. It's all a matter of establishing and promoting the best ground rules for how, when, and why you allow or don't allow your emotions to guide your actions.

[devilgrrl]

19. How many ugly politicians are there out there?

Where do you begin?

[Iris]

21. Yes, and isn't it interesting that he asked about ugly politicians, CEOs, and police chiefs - as if

they are ALL men?

[Indenturedebtor]

37. Yes because I live in a cave

And I secretly hate women.

Here - Yeah it's wikipedia but there's plenty of citations at the bottom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness

Go scream at someone else. I wouldn't be so brazen in arguing with you if I didn't know that I hold a deep seating abiding respect for women as equals. I would generally rather spend time around women than men, and have always been that way. Not because I want to have sex with them all, but because... well I don't know why. Because I like women.

There comes a point when we cross the line. Where one can go too far. It's like killing the populace after you've conquered the country. You can't win a battle attacking the fact that attractive people of both genders will always do better in society. People will always be sexual animals. Better to educate people on the proper ways to express those animal urges than to simply try to make them feel guilty for them, in the hopes that they go away.

Good luck with that.

[Kitty Herder]

30. Don't leave out >

I think Waxman is about the ugliest politician out there. Does that lead me to have less respect for him? No, not at all.

[Uncle Joe]

32. If you want to see ugly

show that clip of Karl Rove dancing, it makes babies cry and butterflies turn back in to caterpillars.

[Iris]

20. No, it's not going to go away as long as we condone it and justify it by calling it biology

as if we have no control over our minds.

And, I'm sorry, but you will never convince me this is as bad for men as it is for women.

[Runcible Spoon]

25. it's not, but it is damaging and should be noted.

however, the only way to achieve gender equity is to understand the human drive to seek and define sexual attractiveness, and use that as part of empowerment as opposed to marginalization. After all, it's pretty etched in both our biological AND cultural history:

[Indenturedebtor]

36. It's not.

And I don't think that we should condone sexual dichotomy affecting what any one person is "allowed" to do, or encourage stereotypes. But there is more than one way to peel an onion. Louis Farrakhan is very good at getting people riled up... but it's highly questionable whether or not he's actually done any good for AA's.

The militant absolutism espoused by many feminists comes off as bitter and rings hollow to many men and women. We can't try to deny our biology completely. It's pointless and counter productive to even try. Better to spend our energies pursuing positive goals than negative ones. Usually ends better imo!

[treestar]

28. Exactly, and we are encouraged to think ourselves ugly no matter

what we look like, or not good enough. We see beautiful women getting surgery to "improve" on nature which was already generous.

[Captain Hilts]

33. Sexism is only 2 out of 16 op-ed writers at the Wash Post being women.

It's 75% of all grievance suits filed in colleges being young male students vs. young female professors.

It's women columnists getting more angry hate male than male columnists.

[Indenturedebtor]

38. Now that is something worth fighting about

I personally agree that we should aggressively attack people's attitudes towards women as only sex objects. But in my opinion the most effective way to do that is not to deny that women CAN be sex objects. Simply that cavemen need to understand that other attributes are more important, and that a women/person's looks are not the sum total of their "worth/value". Positive goals such as aggressively promoting the view of women as equal people with equal intellect and abilities, I think will bear more fruit!

There are a lot of men out there who hold "respect" to be a key component of whether or not they find someone attractive. We're not all completely shallow. And maybe it is a little base (or something) to find powerful, competent, good looking women sexy... but I hardly think it's sexist! If anything I would think it empowering.

When my wife got a raise recently, in a way I thought it was hot :D Then of course I felt a little shame that she was making more money than me for awhile... but we do have some cultural baggage we have to deal with. I wouldn't be surprised if she found me a little less sexy for that period of time. :shrug:

[VotesForWomen]

42. thank you. some of those numbers are starting to piss me off; it's 2008 fer christ's sake, and the m

media still can't seem to find any women fit to put on the air/in print, etc...

[VotesForWomen]

41. if the only thing you ever talk about wrt women is their attractiveness, that's sexism.