No means no at any time (women can sue for rape halfway into intercourse).

[Smith_3]

In broadening the legal definition of rape, Maryland's highest court has rightly expanded women's rights, recognizing the importance of their being able to assert control at times of particular vulnerability. The seven judges may have relied on different legal reasoning, but they were unanimous in concluding that a woman can change her mind and withdraw consent during sexual intercourse - and that a man has to honor her decision. Making that more clear in the law is a welcome advance that should help juries as they weigh the facts in individual cases. ...

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/editorial/bal-ed.rape18apr18001519,0,6603109.story

[enki23]

1. how would you prove that in court?

i mean, it's pretty obviously the case that a woman should be able to change her mind at any point. but there would be nothing but her word that she did so, in most cases. so what then?

[AngryAmish]

2. He waited 5 seconds to stop after she said no?

And he got convicted? Are those facts correct?

[mainegreen]

3. Yup.

5ish seconds. Be interesting to know which side of 5 seconds this is. Was anyone timing?


Either there is more information or there's a jury out there with whom I think needs a head check.

[nykym]

8. Gee

The average female orgasm last 5-8 sec. and male lasts 3-5 sec not much window of opportunity there.

[BigDaddy44]

4. "don't......stop......."

wait....do those words go together? Or shall I interpret them individually?

Boy am I glad I'm married.

[lapislzi]

23. Husbands have no immunity from a rape charge

It is one of the more common forms of domestic abuse.

Your comment is insensitive, although I assume you meant it to be funny.

[BigDaddy44]

36. My apologies

Although I'm still glad I'm married (and can assure you I'm safe on that front)

[lapislzi]

39. LOL...I guess I'm glad too

that you're married

:P

I'm astonished by how strongly popular culture reinforces the "no means yes" meme. Kids need to be taught that "no" means "no." Don't say "no" when you mean "maybe," or "try again." My mother used to drill me with the "play hard to get" crap and I never got it. I still don't.

If I want sex with someone, I say yes. If I don't, I say no. According to my mother, that makes me a slut. I say it makes me happily married (which I am also).

[Smith_3]

5. hmm, come to think. can she sue too if he says he will pull out and doesn't?

[madmusic]

6. Press charges, you mean, not sue

Big difference. Unless you are thinking of advance benefits.

"But physical relationships between men and women can get complicated, and what may start out as an act of intimacy can become an act of terror."

Yeah, like if he has bad breath that turns her off.

[LeftyMom]

7. Of course. Consent can be withdrawn. Why on earth is this a matter of debate?

:wtf:

[madmusic]

10. Because 5 seconds wasn't fast enough

That's why.

[Phx_Dem]

11. I think some are struggling with the 5ish second delay

Because he let 5 or so seconds elapse before stopping he raped her?

[LeftyMom]

13. How long does it take to get your dick out of somebody?

If he took longer than that, then yes, he's a rapist.

It's damn near impossible to get a rape conviction. If a jury of his peers, with all of the available facts, felt that he deliberately took his time getting off of the woman after consent was withdrawn, I'm inclined to believe them.

[BigDaddy44]

15. I am curious

And please don't take this as a hostile question, because its not. In this scenario, what do you think the punishment should be compared to someone grabbing someone off the street and assaulting them?

Should the 5 second delay warrant prison time? In your opinion, how much? (i realize you're most likely not a judge, but i'm curious)

[madmusic]

16. Whyt wan't she charged for sexual assult on a minor?

ROCKVILLE, Md. - If a woman consents to sex and changes her mind mid-act, that's not considered rape, according to the Maryland Court of Special Appeals.

A Montgomery County teen was convicted of rape by a circuit court jury after an 18-year-old woman testified that he continued having sex with her after she said she was having pain. The woman had just had sex in a car with the teen's friend.

The appeals court ruled that Maryland law does not consider consent revocation the same as rape.

Three years ago when Maouloud Baby was 16 a jury convicted him of first-degree rape, first-degree sexual offense and third-degree sexual offense. During the trial, the woman testified that she did not feel she could turn Baby down but says she asked him to stop when she felt pain.

The case of Baby, who's serving a five-year sentence, now goes back to the Montgomery County court. He could face a new trial or dismissal of charges entirely.

http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=25&sid=961935

[mainegreen]

17. Frankly I'd like more info.

The thought that merely taking five perceived seconds to parse 'please stop' during consensual (up to that point) sex and then pulling out is rape is frankly insane.
I'd like to think that there is more to it. I seriously hope there is. If he said 'oh come on' and kept going, even one more second he's a rapist. If went down more like him going 'what?' and she said 'stop' again and then he pulled out (about five seconds there) then he is in no way a rapist. Hell, just last week the Mrs somehow adjusted position and ended up kneeing me wrong during sex and it took me at least ten seconds to get her attention enough to make her realize she was hurting me and to adjust. Hell you learn in drivers ed that human reaction time is at a minimum one to two seconds, and that's -with- adrenaline pumping. It strains credulity to say a five second reaction time to go from consensual sex to stopping after being asked is rape.

I hope that there is more information that this article does not provide, that the jury was presented with that makes very clear he continued unabashed after understanding that the woman asked him to stop. I would agree with it then.

But then, if it was simply he took five(ish) seconds from the second she uttered no to being withdrawn and off of her, then this jury is totally daft.

That's why I replied previously in a (if a then b else c) response.

I'm not inclined to believe any juries judgment on anything unless I have the full info. I'll reserve my judgment until then.

[madmusic]

18. More info

Maouloud Baby v. State of Maryland is a court case determining sexual consent, the ability to withdraw sexual consent, and how long the delay between the withdrawal of sexual consent and the cessation of sexual activity must be, to constitute rape.<1>

Case

On December 13, 2003, Maouloud Baby (1988- ), age 15, and a classmate, Michael Wilson, were students at Watkins Mill High School in Montgomery Village, Maryland. They drove to a residential area with an 18-year-old woman who attended Montgomery College. Baby and Wilson knew the woman socially. After the woman parked the car, Baby and Wilson asked her to sit between them in the back seat. She did, and they began touching her sexually. Baby got out of the car and Wilson had intercourse with her. Then Baby got back in and had a brief conversation with the woman. He said "So are you going to let me hit it?". She replied "As long as stop when I tell to". She said the intercourse was becoming painful and she asked him to stop and he stopped about 5 seconds later and did not ejaculate. All three returned to the McDonald's restaurant in Montgomery Village where they had been earlier that day. Before leaving, the woman and Wilson hugged, and she gave Baby her telephone number. Hours later she told a friend's mother what had happened and the police were called. Both men were charged as adults with first-degree rape. Wilson pleaded guilty to second-degree rape and was sentenced to 18 months. Baby's first trial ended in a mistrial. In his second trial, he was convicted of first-degree rape, first-degree sexual offense and third-degree sexual offense. The Maryland Court of Appeals overturned his conviction, but the prosecution has appealed.

http://www.answers.com/topic/maouloud-baby-v-state-of-maryland?cat=biz-fin

[mainegreen]

21. So it sounds like she charged them with rape to get out of statutory rape charges herself?

Am I reading this right?

Please tell me I'm not, otherwise I'm going to have to officially put Maryland in the same category as Florida; the states that should be placed in padded rooms for their own protection category.

[madmusic]

22. Here is the opinion

Turns out it is not that simple.

http://mdcourts.gov/opinions/coa/2008/14a07.pdf

This might be one of those cases where "You had to be there" and the next jury could go either way. What is confusing is if she thought she was held captive until they were done, why does consent have anything to do with it all?

[mainegreen]

24. Oh crap. That is a mess.

Reads more (what I can get out of a light skim/reading) that she really never gave her consent, and that consent was forced or given under duress.

Kinda makes the article majorly misleading. Also makes me feel a lot better (not about the rape, but about the verdict being a more sensible, or at least understandable verdict).

Thanks for the very informative link.

[pitohui]

41. i would like to know if the man in the story "convicted by a jury of his peers" was black

come on, five seconds?

who was timing it anyway? how do we know it wasn't three seconds or ten seconds?

juries come back with bad decisions all the time, that's how come the innocence project can clear so many people with DNA tests

here is a case where DNA won't settle the matter, so we are supposed to assume that juries only make mistakes when they can be double checked by science? otherwise they always reach the right decision?

kind of hard to swallow

in principle, i agree that if i change my mind about having sex with a guy, then "no means no" and he needs to clear out, in practice, jesus christ people, if you have an ounce of humanity in your heart you don't wait until you're already screwing and then announce, "you know what, dude? you suck, this is soooo over and done with" -- at least give him longer than five freakin' seconds to get his pants back on!

[BigDaddy44]

12. What if you're an older guy and not quite as mobile

Not to be too graphic, but what if it took 5 seconds to get off of her?

[LeftyMom]

14. No doubt that would be a defense. nt

[seabeyond]

9. see on this one i dont go with what i am suppose to think then i get in trouble

with the woman. BUT..... ya know... no, and the guy pumps once, twice more before it goes in his head and then BOOOM , rape.

nw i understand to an extent. i think it is more cause of pain or other circumstance like being physically overpowered than just the indecisive female the argument is for. but i have a tough time supporting the indecisive female. yes no yes no yes no yes ...... no. ya know

rape is to huge an issue to me to dilute the impact of it

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

33. I hear you

During the act of sex things can be somewhat surreal as another poster said with breathing involved 'no.. don't ... stop' can either be a request to continue or a demand to stop. this particular case is not as cut and dry as people on either side would like to make it.

5 seconds after hearing and understanding what she was asking is a bit long, but 5 seconds to figure it out is not unreasonable..

This was *clearly* not rape, perhaps sexual assault of a lower degree.. Should the guy go to prison for this? maybe, but not as a rapist and not for any long period of time..

[Ohio Joe]

19. 5 seconds is plenty of time to stop

Sorry, but it is. I've had women tell me to stop for a variety of reasons. oops, sounds like dad is coming down, stop. Sounds like the room mate is coming in, stop. Sorry, its hurting right now, stop.

The reason doesn't matter, hell there doesn't even have to be a reason. Someone says stop... you stop, simple. You don't stop, your a rapist.

[seabeyond]

20. seeee, this is the blunt lol perspective. my hubby does it too

maybe that is how a guy as to do all this for the line NOT to get fuzzy. i tend to see fuzzy lines everywhere. that might be a problem. i can get that.

the reason i say, talking to hubby about underage girls

well... what if really really developed
nope, under 18

what if she really really wants you
nope under 18

he doesnt even allow it to go further in the brain than that

sounds a lot like your stop

interesting

[Ohio Joe]

25. Well I don't see everything that clearly

I seem to see a lot of fuzzy lines. This however... has just been something that was always clear to me.

[Smith_3]

26. Your post makes sense theoretically.

But in real life, I find it absolutely valid to wonder as to how it can occur that a woman changes her mind from wanting intercourse with someone to being repelled by that person to such an extent as to where she wants to press rape charges against him if he remains inside her for a second longer. I seriously doubt that the girl who said that her dad is coming would have accused you of rape if it took you five seconds to get out.

edit: I agree that more info is needed. Unfortunately I don't have any.

[Ohio Joe]

27. Doesn't matter at that moment

Your partner says stop, you stop. After you stop you might ask why, and you might not like the answer. You may in fact feel it was down right shitty. But you stop seeing that person and find someone else, you don't decide that its OK to not stop. I'm sorry but its how I feel.

[Threedifferentones]

37. You understand the severity of being convicted of rape, right?

You think a guy who takes 5 seconds to pull out deserves the same punishment as someone who drugs/attacks another person? That is ridiculous.

[Ohio Joe]

38. Yes, I do

That person has made the conscious decision that even though the person has made it clear their partner no longer wishes to continue they are going to force themselves on them. Thats rape. The person that drugs and attacks in addition to rape should face other charges in addition to rape.

[fed_up_mother]

29. I agree more info is needed

especially if he didn't ejaculate.

[Javaman]

28. what's half way into intercourse?

Either you're in or you're out.

:shrug:

[fed_up_mother]

30. LOL

[Xithras]

31. Said it before. I agree with the judge except during orgasm.

Ever try to stop an orgasm? You can't legislate against biology.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

32. At any time they should be able to say no

*except* afterwards (which some people actully endorse).. The difficulty, of course, comes in proving it

[Fox Mulder]

34. She should be able to if she says no.

There is nothing to debate here.

[JerseygirlCT]

35. Good! nt

[mitchtv]

40. If you finish yourself off

is it then indecent exposure?