UFO skeptics.

[Jack Sprat]

The most impressive testimony that I have seen comes from LtCol Holt from the Bentwaters airbase in England when he was stationed there in the 80s. He was deputy base commander (Air Force) and many of the Air Police Sqdn there got up close and personal with the UFO. The craft was not only witnessed but touched as well. It was completely silent with no exhaust system felt or seen. It was black but lights could be seen through the metallic finish. It both landed, stayed on the ground some 45 minutes in full view, and took off before their eyes. What do you make of this particular incident? I am former Air Force myself and feel most certain that this was, at the very least, solid proof of UFO existence. When I conducted a poll recently, some of you still believe that it is entirely mis-sightings. ie, that witness really don't see what they think they are seeing. So....what do you make of the Bentwaters sighting and examination by the Security Police Squadron of an USAFE base?

[mike_c]

1. link to more info?

Please.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

3. There is a series UFO hunters and he's interviewed on it. It's available on Youtube. If you can't

find it, holler! :)

[Jack Sprat]

4. turn on Larry King right now, CNN

[mike_c]

12. no TV here-- but I'll look for the YouTube mentioned above....

Thanks!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

57. Here is the first part. Use it to find the other 4 parts. :EnJoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLTqChkSx-g

[Cheap_Trick]

33. here's some info

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendlesham_Forest_Incident

[Winterblues]

86. Check this link

http://www.dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art.html Before cameras this is what would be considered "Hard Evidence"

[JFN1]

140. Fascinating stuff!

Quite a collection - thanks for the link!

[bbwlawfirm]

143. Good Links

Thanks

[Lochloosa]

150. UFO Coin?

Looks more like a mushroom to me. *S*

[rurallib]

2. I have often thought that it is our progeny from the future

who have learned to transverse time coming back to try to warn us to quit fucking things up.

[ret5hd]

7. Well, they need to learn to speak a little more clearly...

Did they take lessons from the writers of the bible and koran or something?

[rurallib]

8. Chaucer, methinks.

[King Coal]

90. Yep, ol' Chaucer had a lot of weather balloons.

[Wizard777]

11. So your saying that we have a functioning time machine. I don't think so.

When time travel becomes possible. We won't be able to travel into the past beyond the point the time machine was first activated. But there is a loop hole. If we can find an alien civilization that had a time machine activated at or before the advent of mankind. Then we could use their time machine to travel beyond the limits of our time machine. If they let us travel back with our own time machine. Then we could reestablish the time barrier.

[napoleon_in_rags]

48. Is that true Mr Ogg the Caveman?

not giving trying to give you shit, but you realize that they would be so far advanced beyond anything we know, our speculations about it would just be to them like grunting cavemen.

[Wizard777]

71. I think they would consider us to be more child like. Their advances would also give them longevity.

They probably live for thousands of years. A 100 year old man would be a baby to a 10,000 year old alien.

[Harry Monroe]

23. If that is the case, then why do they come back to anally probe us??

[LeftyMom]

46. They get bored mutilating cows and making patterns in cornfields.

:shrug:

[Ghost in the Machine]

60. Another one with an obsession about anal probes. Is that all you've got? You're as bad as the

... gun grabbers and their obsessions with the penises of gun owners. Please keep your sexual fantasies to yourself and discuss the issue at hand like a grownup instead of like a child...

Thanks..

BTW... why does your doctor anally probe you during a physical??

[Harry Monroe]

68. Lighten up!!!

BTW, I'm not obsessed with anal probes, but it seems like everytime a yahoo is abducted that they always say they are anally probed. I would guess they are the ones with the obsession?? I believe in life on other planets, BTW, but not in the existence of UFO's. There should be some concrete proof by now?? I have yet to see any evidence of much intelligent life on this planet, but I do believe somewhere out there there is intelligent life. The distances are so vast as to make communication almost impossible.

[Ghost in the Machine]

92. Forgive me, but I've just seen it too many times before... it's old and stale..

I've read a lot of accounts of abductions and not *all* of them speak of anal probing, so it's not "everytime", as you put it. Yes, some abductees say they have been anally probed, I don't deny that. It's just a sore spot (no pun intended) with me, as it soreads untruths.

I'm glad to see that you at least have a belief in a more intelligent life somewhere in this universe. I wonder what drives people to believe that they haven't developed capabilities for inerplanetary flight, though. If they are so much more advanced than us, why the skepticism? How long has our space exploration program been in existence? 40-50 years?? And yet we've put men on the moon, and rovers on Mars that can send back images from there. We also have a craft capable of repeated flights into space....

[Harry Monroe]

69. Oh and to answer your question about why my doctor anally probes me during a physical

Perhaps he is an alien?? Or perhaps that is his job.

[napoleon_in_rags]

47. I've been dreaming about that all day.

And I think its a strong argument. Mostly the way they behave. In the book communion, they were pretty sexual in a very human way. I could see humans from a distant futre wanting to get jiggy with the caveman (to them) but I can't see radically different species acting that same way.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

138. I wonder if our descendants in a far, far distant future

might come back in time for us. Let's say that intelligent life evolves even beyond the point where they become a machine intelligence. Let's say they become pure energy and pure thought, with virtual immortality and develop into a one-ness. I wonder if there would be the temptation, somewhere in the eons, to come back and revisit every human being who ever lived. Maybe they would come into the past at the time of the death of each member of the human race and offer the choice to join our consciousness with theirs in a far distant time. Intelligent beings (or being) that exists as pure energy and thought and is just a one-ness may want to become one with every mind that ever lived. This is bordering on religious thought, perhaps.

[gateley]

5. A few years ago

Dr. Stephen Greer had a gathering at the National Press Club in Washington DC.

Many members of the Military told their stories -- not just of sightings, but of the military actions as well, and each ended with the statement "I am willing to testify to this under oath in a court of law." But nothing ever came of it.

[JeffR]

6. I've seen this man interviewed. He seems eminently sane to me.

Having seen a UFO myself many years ago, I don't know what I saw, but I do know it wasn't a weather balloon, the planet Venus, an airplane or a hallucination. I have no idea what it was, but it was huge and I tracked it from miles out over the water to a few hundred feet over my head until it disappeared behind the trees, on a crisp clear night.

I'm inclined to give pilots much more credence about such sightings than I would a civilian like myself.

[Jack Sprat]

14. me too.

I know a FexEx pilot who told me of an interesting night with a UFO craft which tracked several of the fleet and was the source of their radio chatter for some half hour. Close enough to have seen people but observed only internal lights and no people-like movement inside.

[JeffR]

18. This is one of the more vexing things aboout the UFO debate.

We have decades worth of testimony from military and commercial pilots, and even from astronauts, about their close encounters. If these people aren't worth a full, open and honest hearing on the issue, who is?

[skepticscott]

24. The question is

what else do they have? They saw something in the air and they didn't know what it was. Yippee. Why is the automatic leap of illogic to assume that it must have been an extraterrestrial spacecraft? Where are thepictures?? Why, with everyone and their brother carrying around digital cameras, phone cameras and digital video cameras is there still not ONE single photograph or video from all of these sightings that clearly and unambiguously shows something that could only be an alien spaceship? Give us a few of those and you'll start to convince us. Until then, you've got squat. The plural of anecdote is not data.

[JeffR]

29. I don't claim for a second that what I saw was extraterrestrial.

As I said above, I don't know what the hell it was. But I do know it was there, and it was as real as I am. Beyond that, alien, domestic, secret military craft, visitors from the future or another dimension: I have no idea. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else, because I have nothing I'm trying to convince anyone about. It was there, that's all, whatever it was.

[skepticscott]

66. So again,

if it wasn't an extraterrestrial, why should anyone else care? Every person alive has seen things in the sky that they couldn't explain, so why do some folks feel the need to waste bandwidth about it?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

78. The microscope icon would indicate intellectual curiosity. Why

are you crapping on people here who are curious? "wasting bandwidth" Please. Save your pixels for other threads, skeptic.

[skepticscott]

117. What you call curious

I call gullible and totally clueless about how to critically evaluate evidence and factual claims. Without the latter ability, all curiosity gets you is a mishmash of nonsense, with no way to willow out truth from baloney. I frankly wish I had time to investigate everything I'm was curious about, but I don't and neither does anyone else. Show me ONE clear, unambiguous picture that can ONLY be an alien spacecraft and I might consider it worth my time. Show me ONE piece of hardware or biological material that could only be extraterrestrial and we'll talk. Is that too much to ask out of all the millions of UFO sightings and kidnappings that have been alleged?

[defendandprotect]

56. Re-read the post or see the Larry King show with the comments . .. or

read one of the books available on this event at Brentwater --

Meanwhile, as I recall it, the spaceship was ON THE GROUND . . .
the guy actually touched it. It was shut down. After quite some time it took off ---
without noise and without displacing air.
He was NOT alone during this time --- he had other analysts with him.

There were also UFO's in the sky while this was going on --- three in one area --- and another
two in another area.

At some point, others saw UFOs splitting up -- into 3 or 5 different objects.

[skepticscott]

67. You didn't answer my direct questions...

gee...wonder why not? Why were no pictures taken??? An unknown, possibly hostile aircraft lands at a military base and no one does anything but stare at it? Please.

And sorry, but I no longer have time to waste reading endless anecdotal accounts on every whack-a-doodle UFO claim that comes down the pike. I've read enough of them in the past that sounded as plausible as this on the surface but that turned out to be BS after only a little critical investigation by someone. Unless there is hard evidence, physical or photographic, to back up a story, it's just another waste of time.

[defendandprotect]

77. There is film from this event . . .

as I recall it is from a distance where only bright lights can be seen.

The program which was replayed last night is actually from December of 2007 --
as I recall it, those who first saw the spacecraft in an open field weren't sure if the bright lights were simply from the craft or whether it had done some damage to the house/area being it.
Also as I recall it, this particular craft suddenly turned into 3 or 5 other objects and left.

There is audio of the accompanying sightings where many witnesses can be heard describing what
they are seeing.

We might consider it odd --- I don't --- that there was a craft with amazed analysts looking at it and they didn't react by taking a photograph. Evidently fear can kill the urge to whip out your camera?

Needless to say, in dismissing what military witnesses are telling you, I can only presume that you think they have conspired to tell lies, and/or they are unqualified to do their jobs?

[skepticscott]

115. So in other words

you have a film of moving lights that could be due to anything. You have no images whatsoever that show this was a "craft" of any kind. And you say they were close enough touch it...so why were the only pictures from a distance? And momentarily startled is one thing, but was EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM totally frozen with fear for ALL of the 45 minutes this thing was supposed to be sitting there??? I'm sure glad they're not protecting MY country. Or maybe the aliens used their sinister dumfounding ray on us. And why do you people always argue that because someone is a pilot or a cop or a soldier that they're totally honest, never mistaken and a fabulously reliable observer?

[seemslikeadream]

125. 1 million never before seen Galaxies

THINK ABOUT IT FOR A MINUTE




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGzKymc1pGE



How big are you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL4cFjmnQT8

Let's go for a ride
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgg2tpUVbXQ

[defendandprotect]

132. First, let me suggest that if you want to discuss something like a video

that you should make an effort to actually see it ---
You can look up the Larry King show --- the video is available there.

Bear in mind that the video and the witness descriptions come hand in hand.
You have eyewitnesses describing this as a craft --
Keep in mind that there were different military groups exploring these events --
at least two. It's been a while since I completely watched the program or reviewed the
whole Brentwater affair. It's by no means a simple story, especially re underground activities
there.

I'm not sure that the "craft" which is on film is the same craft which was watched for some time --- completely turned off --- and which was touched -- and then left is the same as the other.
There were a number of craft in the area at all times.

Again -- I'd encourage you to listen to what the witnesses have to say rather than discussing something you haven't really heard a great deal about.

No one is, as far as I can see, suggesting that pilots or cops or soldiers are "honest" --
nor infallible --- however, it is obvious that they are trained observers and --- in the case of pilots --- they certainly are aware of what can normally be seen in the sky --- and what is abnormal.

If you're truly interested in the subject, let me suggest that you do some research and get some direct information.


PS: If you can't like to the program thru Larry King --- try "The Disclosure Project" ---

[Birthmark]

152. Question

What time of year was this crisp, clear night?

[BlooInBloo]

9. What do I make of one more anecdote-of-an -anecdote-of-an-anecdote? Not a damn thing.

[Octafish]

10. Fascinating subject.

Jacques Vallee says he would be dissapointed if they were "just" visitors from another star system.
Going by what's been reported by eyewitnesses, radar records, photographs and the historical record,
Dr. Vallee theorized they may be interdimensional travelers or something we can't even put into words.



Notice the ground effects directly beneath the object. It appears the dust is standing up.

A scary thought: Vallee also says we may get the Visitors we deserve.

[seemslikeadream]

15. Wouldn't you know you'd be 2 minutes ahead of me!

[Octafish]

32. Trindade photos may be the best in public...

Jan. 16, 1958, at least 100 crewmen of a Brazilian navy ship observed and photographed an object as it circled a nearby island.



http://www.ufoevidence.org/photographs/section/1950s/photo300.htm

You know, we're pretty much neck-n-neck and third-eye 'n' third-eye on all this stuff.



BTW: THAT is some awesome artwork, there, seemslikeadream! Are they yours?

[seemslikeadream]

44. I get so caught up in stuff, I forgot.... I need to squeegee

It's Alex Grey

[Octafish]

51. DSJ Melbourne, Delta Sierra Juliet, it's not an aircraft it is (open microphone for two seconds).

On Oct. 21, 1978 Frederick Valentich and his airplane disappeared after a harrowing close encounter over Bass Straight between the Australian mainland and Tasmania.

Here's the transcript:

Australian Pilot Disappears, Valentich

Boats and aircraft have found no trace of the 20-year old Australian pilot who disappeared with his plane on Saturday night after radioing that he was being chased by a UFO. Frederick Valentich was on a 125 mile training flight in his single engine Cessna 182 along the coast of Bass Strait when he told air traffic controllers in Melbourne that he was being buzzed by a UFO with 4 bright lights about 1000 feet above him.
Controllers said his last message was taped and was: "It's approaching from due east towards me. It seems to be playing some sort of game... flying at a speed I can't estimate. It's not an aircraft. It's...It is flying past. It is a long shape. I cannot identify more than that. It's coming for me right now." A minute later: "It seems to be stationary. I'm also orbiting and the thing is orbiting on top of me also. It has a green light and a sort of metallic light on the outside." Valentich then radioed that his engine was running roughly. His last words were: "It is not an aircraft."

The Australian Air Force said it had received 11 reports from people along the coast who said they saw UFOs on Saturday night, but the Transport Department was skeptical. Ken Williams, a spokesman for the department, said, "It's funny all these people ringing up with UFO reports well after Valentich's disappearance. It seems people often decide after the event, they too had seen strange lights. But although we can't take them too seriously, we can never discourgae such reports when investigating a plane's disappearance."

Some Transport Dept officials have speculated that Valentich became disoriented and saw his own lights reflected in the water, or lights from a nearby island, while flying upside down.

Valentich's father, Guio, said his son used to study UFOs "as a hobby using information he had received from the Air Force. He was not the kind of person who would make up stories. Everything had to be very correct and positive for him. The fact that they have found no trace of him really verifies the fact that UFOs could have been there." Guio Valentich said he hoped his son hadn't crashed but had been taken by a UFO.

Editors Note: It is a total misconception that UFO reports were only made after Valentich's report. According to the Victorian UFO Research Society, based at Moorabbin, near the location from where the disappearance took place, there had been a UFO wave ongoing for at least six weeks before the date of Valentich's disappearance.

ACTUAL TRANSCRIPTION OF MELBOURNE FLIGHT SERVICE

The transcript portion of the communication between Valentich and Melbourne Flight Service as released by the Australian Department of Transport follows: (FS - Flight Service, DSJ - Frederick Valentich aircraft designation).

1906:14 DSJ Melbourne, this is Delta Sierra Juliet. Is there any known traffic below five thousand?

FS Delta Sierra Juliet, no known traffic.

DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, I am, seems to be a large aircraft below five thousand.

1906:44 FS Delta Sierra Juliet, What type of aircraft is it?

DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, I cannot affirm, it is four bright, it seems to me like landing lights.

1907 FS Delta Sierra Juliet.

1907:31 DSJ Melbourne, this is Delta Sierra Juliet, the aircraft has just passed over me at least a thousand feet above.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet, roger, and it is a large aircraft, confirmed?

DSJ Er-unknown, due to the speed it's travelling, is there any air force aircraft in the vicinity?

FS Delta Sierra Juliet, no known aircraft in the vicinity.

1908:18 DSJ Melbourne, it's approaching now from due east towards me.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet.

1908:41 DSJ (open microphone for two seconds.)

1908:48 DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, it seems to me that he's playing some sort of game, he's flying over me two, three times at speeds I could not identify.

1909 FS Delta Sierra Juliet, roger, what is your actual level?

DSJ My level is four and a half thousand, four five zero zero.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet, and you confirm you cannot identify the aircraft?

DSJ Affirmative.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet, roger, stand by.

1909:27 DSJ Melbourne, Delta Sierra Juliet, it's not an aircraft it is (open microphone for two seconds).

1909:42 FS Delta Sierra Juliet, can you describe the -er- aircraft?

DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, as it's flying past it's a long shape (open microphone for three seconds) cannot identify more than it has such speed (open microphone for three seconds). It's before me right now Melbourne.

1910 FS Delta Sierra Juliet, roger and how large would the - er - object be?

1910:19 DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, Melbourne, it seems like it's stationary. What I'm doing right now is orbiting and the thing is just orbiting on top of me also. It's got a green light and sort of metallic like, it's all shiny on the outside.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet

1910:46 DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet (open microphone for three seconds) It's just vanished.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet

1911 DSJ Melbourne, would you know what kind of aircraft I've got? Is it a military aircraft?

FS Delta Sierra Juliet, Confirm the - er ~ aircraft just vanished.

DSJ Say again.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet, is the aircraft still with you?

DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet; it's (open microphone for two seconds) now approaching from the south-west.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet

1911:50 DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, the engine is rough-idling. I've got it set at twenty three twenty-four and the thing is coughing.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet, roger, what are your intentions?

DSJ My intentions are - ah - to go to King Island - ah - Melbourne. That strange aircraft is hovering on top of me again (open microphone for two seconds). It is hovering and it's not an aircraft.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet.

1912:28 DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet. Melbourne (open microphone for seventeen seconds).

SOURCE: http://www.ufocasebook.com/australianpilot.html

I feel so sorry for his family.

[seemslikeadream]

13. Jacques Vallee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmVYPT6GOYI

[Octafish]

19. As Jung to Freud, Dr. Vallee is to Dr. J. Allen Hynek.

Rouen et McMinnville



Until I met my wife, his is the work that made it possible for me to keep on keeping on.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc608.htm

Thanks for the heads-up on the new audio. As always, you are ahead of me.

[seemslikeadream]

20. Make sure you watch all the episodes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmVYPT6GOYI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uOaF5fRLkI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du-pG5m23yc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frjpl3BpsiA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V2z-3xwfVw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erMNOIZwv1M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1OtVpXtj0A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGJ4WPLLPjE


and then there's this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIydfxEzdiQ

[Octafish]

25. The newspapers just used to be FULL of Them. Nowadays, it's just 'whackos.'

Here's what we went through in 1966 Michigan, when Dr. Hynek, recovering from a major injury and surgery,
coined the phrase "Swamp Gas" to explain what the deputy and the Hillsdale coeds saw. Heh.

http://info.detnews.com/redesign/history/story/historytemplate.cfm?id=210



The next year, the good Jaroslaw brothers were beaten down to the point where they had to change their story. It's like DU today.

UFOs Captured on Film

[seemslikeadream]

116. angels touch your eyes

Is this your first life?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uZSDuVngCI

[Firespirit]

16. I saw a UFO -- and no I'm not BSing anyone

It was a clear day in late January, and I happened to be outside enjoying the afternoon. It was vaguely round, and it looked white. It looked to be about the size of the end of an ink pen, but I have no guess as to how high it was, so I can't judge how big its true size might have been.

What makes me think it was something high-tech was that it did a sharp 90 degree angle in the air, no curving, no change in speed. I've never seen anything fly like that before.

I figure that between our own highly secretive government and the vast universe we live in, some of the UFO sightings must be of real, undocumented craft.

[magellan]

40. My husband and I saw two objects in the night sky do that

Small lights, about the brightness of a satellite passing over. They zig-zagged around for about a minute making the 90 degree turns you describe, then vanished. We saw them on two different nights.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

113. I saw one along with 6 of my neighbors over 18 years ago. It was a huge flying

craft that cruised just above the tops of the trees. There were lights around the bottom and it was silent.

After it passed, I went into my home and tried to call the police. I couldn't get through, it was constantly busy.

What's kind of funny is, that about 7 years afterwards, my younger son came into to talk to me. He asked me why I never mentioned that I saw a UFO. My next door neighbor's son told him about what his parents saw and that I saw it too. :)

[angrycarpenter]

17. Show me

Something besides blurry photos and vid, or someone telling a fantastic story then I will give credence to the theory. I would love proof that we are not alone but until then I must conclude that it is more likely secret tests by our military that is the basis for UFOs.

I do not think that the prime directive is in force out there. I cannot believe that ETs would come many light years just to hide out and anally probe hillbillies. I also cannot believe that our government could hide them from us so well that there is not one shred of undeniable physical evidence in the public domain.

[1620rock]

22. They're out there baby.

[angrycarpenter]

26. I am sure they are out there

But are they here? I am certain that somewhere there is a super advanced race capable of inter-stellar flight. But why would they come here? What would they have to gain by hiding? If ETs came to our planet I think it would be like the film "independence day". We would not be able to miss them and that they would simply take whatever they were after.

The energy involved in getting up to even a good fraction of light speed could consume entire suns. Why would they hide from us?

[Glorfindel]

28. Quarantine patrol - to keep a race of killer apes from escaping

and spreading their contamination into the rest of the universe. They're just keeping a watchful eye on us.

[angrycarpenter]

31. Not a good enough reason

we are nowhere near interstellar travel, not in the next hundred years. Maybe not even two hundred.

I also do not believe that FTL travel is possible. Einstein said that the closer you get to light speed the energy needed to go faster increases exponentially until it would take more energy than there is in the universe to go faster and that you could never reach light speed.

A craft consuming that much energy could be seen light-years away. They could not sneak up on us.

[klyon]

73. some truth in that

might be you have to reach a level of maturity before we would be allowed to join a bigger community
after all, we are still fighting with sticks and rocks
well not much higher

[spanone]

102. what i saw was real and i don't even have a blurry photo or a really fantastic story

just saw one in the sky directly above my house....low....no sound....real low

[Jackpine Radical]

21. It's all swamp gas or Venus or maybe weather balloons.

Oh by the way-- :sarcasm:

I have seen two UFOs in my life, one in Vietnam in 1967 and one in Wisconsin in the winter of 1979-80. Both were high, fast-moving points of light that executed sharp right-angle turns and other maneuvers that aircraft just don't do.

[skepticscott]

27. And gee

it was sitting there in full view for 45 minutes and NOBODY snapped a photo of it?? Nobody on the whole freaking base had a camera?? Yeah, they were all just too flabbergasted to do that...or they forgot...or they were out of film...or they left the lens cap on. Why is it always the same BS excuses and NO hard evidence?

[bluesmail]

34. that's bad behavior, even for a non-believer

[truth2power]

37. Thank you. n/t

[skepticscott]

112. Yeah, I know

demanding real evidence is the worst way to behave around UFO woo-wooers. Sue me.

[Winterblues]

85. Actually there were pictures taken and recordings made

The military has those. Why they won't release them is another question but the ,as you say, "hard evidence" is definitely there. Here is a place with interesting "hard evidence" but I know people that don't believe never bother to even look.
http://www.dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art.html

[skepticscott]

111. Oh Puhleeeeez!

Now it's the old "the government has the evidence and there's a huge conspiracy to cover it up" excuse. Can't you guys come up with anything new? Do you have statements from all of the witnesses that they took all these pictures and then their superiors confiscated them and pretended they never existed? Didn't anybody think to keep a few for themselves?? If I had a dollar for every time I've heard that one, I could build my own flying saucer...

[Occulus]

134. Two words: black projects. n/t

[Winterblues]

137. Right I am sure you believe everything the government says..

If any of these witnesses were to be a witness in a murder trial their testimony would be accepted and a person could be given the death penalty but you don't believe them because the government says so...Right......

[PVnRT]

147. I love this airtight logic

"You don't believe my conspiracy theory, therefore you drink the government Kool-Aid."

Right.

[Bjorn Against]

30. Of course UFOs exist, they are unidentified flying objects...

That does NOT however make them alien spacecraft. Have you ever noticed that the most credible claims of UFO sightings usually happen in areas around air bases? Don't think this is a coincidence, these aircrafts need some place to launch from and they are not launching from Mars.

[Speck Tater]

35. "Anectdote" is NOT a dirty word. ALL science begins with anecdote.

The farmer tells the story of seeing a stone fall from the sky. Someone tells the story of finding a yellow mineral that burns. Someone reports a strange animal in the jungle.

When enough anecdotes are collected, then there is a motive for doing further investigation. But until there are anecdotes, there is NOTHING to study.

The fundamental error that a lot of skeptics make is to equate "anecdote" with "false", and to simply pronounce the word "anecdote" as if that word, itself, has the inherent power to prove or disprove a particular point of view.

The dogmatic skeptic (as opposed to the truly objective skeptic) uses the word "anecdote" the same way that a dogmatic right winger uses the word "liberal" Once the condemning word has been uttered, no rational debate is possible, because the one who has uttered the word "anecdote" considers the matter closed for all time, based on nothing more than the power of that word.

[misanthrope]

41. A great deal of what we know of non-human animal behavior...

...is based on observation and anecdotal evidence.

That's not to mention that we've felt anecdotal evidence good enough to send other humans to the electric chair.

[skepticscott]

At some point, though

EVIDENCE has to replace mere anecdotes and personal accounts. Evidence has to be examinable and verifiable over and over, not just attested to by one person. If a boatload of people all say they saw rocks falling from the sky, but when you go to look for them, there's never anything there, those remain anecdotes, and are scientifically valueless in and of themselves (not FALSE, despite your uninformed attribution). If you go to the spot and find a chunk of rock and mineral impacted in the ground, and you find a skin on it that shows it experienced high temperature, and you find that the minerals present are not terrestrial in origin, THEN you start to have evidence and to move beyond the realm of anecdote and into the realm of science. Then someone else looks at the same object all over and verifies everything. Then someone else does it again on another similar object. And so on. That's how evidence is gradually accumulated and that's how we discover things about the world, not by just telling stories and expecting them to be taken seriously on their own. The truly objective skeptic directly relates the strength of convictions and the certainty of knowledge to the strength of evidence supporting them, not to the number of anecdotes supporting them.

[skepticscott]

118. At some point, though

EVIDENCE has to replace mere anecdotes and personal accounts. Evidence has to be examinable and verifiable over and over, not just attested to by one person. If a boatload of people all say they saw rocks falling from the sky, but when you go to look for them, there's never anything there, those remain anecdotes, and are scientifically valueless in and of themselves (not FALSE, despite your uninformed attribution). If you go to the spot and find a chunk of rock and mineral impacted in the ground, and you find a skin on it that shows it experienced high temperature, and you find that the minerals present are not terrestrial in origin, THEN you start to have evidence and to move beyond the realm of anecdote and into the realm of science. Then someone else looks at the same object all over and verifies everything. Then someone else does it again on another similar object. And so on. That's how evidence is gradually accumulated and that's how we discover things about the world, not by just telling stories and expecting them to be taken seriously on their own. The truly objective skeptic directly relates the strength of convictions and the certainty of knowledge to the strength of evidence supporting them, not to the number of anecdotes supporting them.

[truth2power]

36. Read "The Hunt for Zero Point" by Nick Cook, reporter for

Jane's Defence Weekly (as of 2005 at least).

Anti-gravity propulsion systems. According to Cook, the Nazis were working on this during WWII.

Match up Cook's very detailed descriptions and drawings with hundreds+ reports of huge (size of a football field) "triangle-shaped craft" that make virtually no sound.

No, the people reporting these things are not crazy (the vast majority, anyway).

Anti-gravity technology. It's already perfected.

[angrycarpenter]

39. Possible but not likely

It would mean that the very nature of gravity had been finally worked out, one of the holy grails of physics. Physicists would not be able to keep such thing to themselves. It would be common knowledge by now.
I am sure that we have some very exotic propulsion systems but Anti-gravity? I just don't see it. Maybe.

[truth2power]

50. Then what is the explanation for these triangle shaped craft

that people describe as being huge, amking no sound and accelerating to extraordinary speeds from a dead stop?

There was that commercial pilot who saw one of these off the coast of England a year or so ago. ALL these people can't be crazy. Just my take on it. I can't prove it.

Look at the reports, here: http://www.nuforc.org/

All these people are nuts?

And why would Nick Cook keep saying this stuff? Jane's Defence Weekly has a good reputation, AFAIK.

[misanthrope]

65. The Belgian Air Force admitted encountering similar craft in 1989-90**nm

**

[Occulus]

135. That is precisely the reason such research, if successful, would be kept quiet.

I can think of a lot of reasons a discovery such as that, were it to be made by scientists on the government payroll, would be kept very hush-hush. Such an advance, after all, would be several orders of magnitude larger that, say, stealth technology, and we all know how quiet the development of that was, and exactly how our military accomplishes it remains.

I seriously do not get it when people claim that such a huge conspiracy is impossible. Our own government has pulled off such "huge conspiracies" probably dozens of times, right under our collective noses! But noooo, these black, wedge-shaped craft couldn't possibly be ours, because that would imply a huge conspiracy!

I mean, wow. Have we all somehow forgotten the development and testing of the SR-71? The F-117A? The B-2?

Our people have maybe made something very very new, something that very well could spell the end of our dependence upon oil as a means of fueling our vehicles, or make it easier for a hostile force- whatever that may be- to mount an attack of some sort. Am I the only one who sees real reasons that such an advance would be kept as quiet as possible for as long as possible?

What is the most likely thing going on here? We know credible people have seen things they can't explain; we know the chances of an interstellar visitor are vanishingly unlikely. We know our government performs projects under its black budget, and we know that various aircraft which are secret have been tested in public airspace, many many times in the past. We also know our government will deny such testing ever took place if it suits their purposes to deny such tests.

Why is the inevitable conclusion, when based on those facts, so elusive to so many people?

:wtf:

[Beetwasher]

38. So, He Saw Something He Can't Explain And That Means Aliens Exist?

How do you make that leap (if in fact you are)? :shrug:

Sorry, but eyewitness testimony is eminently unreliable. Who knows what his motivation might be, maybe he saw something he can't explain, or maybe he's lying. I have no idea and neither does anyone else except him.

For the record, UFO's, of course, exist. That they are alien craft is another matter altogether.

[Speck Tater]

43. A large number of researchers in the field DO NOT make that leap.

Dr. Vallee himself never posits alien beings as the explanation for UFOs.

This is another of those false dichotomy situations where skeptics say "If you believe A then you MUST believe B, and since B is nonsense, everything you believe is nonsense." In point of fact, it is possible to accept the POSSIBILITY of A without ever jumping to conclusion B. But still skeptics will insist that since I am interested in the POSSIBILITY of A, then I MUST believe B, and thus I "believe in" nonsense.

That's just a ridiculous argument that holds no water at all.

On edit, listen in particular to part 4 of the Vallee interview posted above, where he specifically states that he cannot, and has not come to any conclusions about what UFOs might be, and when asked about the Billy Meyers case, which quite a few Ufologists take seriously, he dismisses the photos as fakes.

I believe that gravity holds me to the surface of the earth. John Doe, an inmate in an asylum, who is certifiably insane also believes that gravity holds him to the surface of the earth. Therefore, I am certifiably insane for believing that gravity holds me to the surface of the earth. That's just stupid. You are not justified in calling ALL believers in X crazy because of the obvious fact that SOME believers in X are complete crackpots.

[Beetwasher]

123. What A Load Of Crap

I did no such thing. You are putting words in my mouth.

"This is another of those false dichotomy situations where skeptics say "If you believe A then you MUST believe B, and since B is nonsense, everything you believe is nonsense."

Total fucking grade "A" bullshit. I did no such thing. Read what I wrote.

"On edit, listen in particular to part 4 of the Vallee interview posted above, where he specifically states that he cannot, and has not come to any conclusions about what UFOs might be, and when asked about the Billy Meyers case, which quite a few Ufologists take seriously, he dismisses the photos as fakes."

Good, that's the responsible position. So then what is the point of this post? To point out that people see things they can't explain? Ok, big fucking deal. :shrug:

"You are not justified in calling ALL believers in X crazy because of the obvious fact that SOME believers in X are complete crackpots."

Again, where the fuck did I do that? Please point it out and quote me exactly or admit you are full of shit.

My complete post again, for your easy reference and highlighted to show my qualifiers and to show that you are full of shit:

So, He Saw Something He Can't Explain And That Means Aliens Exist?

How do you make that leap (if in fact you are)? :shrug:

Sorry, but eyewitness testimony is eminently unreliable. Who knows what his motivation might be, maybe he saw something he can't explain, or maybe he's lying. I have no idea and neither does anyone else except him.

For the record, UFO's, of course, exist. That they are alien craft is another matter altogether.

[Jack Sprat]

61. I didn't make that leap. I don't think I mentioned aliens.

The deputy base commander (Holt) did not just wander off by himself and come across this craft in the woods. He was called by the base security police and responded to their reports (the reports of many Security policemen who were watching these lights. It was examined and touched while on the ground.

The irony of all this is that the skeptics are now becoming the whackos. They dismiss everything and everyone. Nobody is saying they know exactly what these objects are, but there are too many people seeing too many objects to say they are all illusions. Skepticism is healthy but it is becoming ridiculous.

[Beetwasher]

122. "but there are too many people seeing too many objects to say they are all illusions"

Really? What about all the thousands of people who claim to see ghosts, or fairies, or big foot. Or all the people who see demons and angels? I guess they are not illusions either, huh? Nahh, senses can't be fooled. No one is saying they are ALL illusions, only that we don't know WHAT they are, there's no evidence to make any determination, and eyewitness testimony is inherently unreliable.

The only irony is that people think they're interpretation of events is the ONLY one that makes any sense.

"the skeptics are now becoming the whackos."

LOL! Really? Skeptics are whackos because they ask for actual evidence before forming conclusions. Well, ok then, I'm a whacko! :rofl:

[Jack Sprat]

129. i know you are. that's obvious.

[Beetwasher]

139. LOL!

Nanny nanny boo boo! Why not call me a poopy head and be done with it? :rofl:

Pathetic.

[Jack Sprat]

141. Read your posts. You have a real problem.

In our first exchange, you accused me of making claims of extraterrestrials. Which I did not. In your last response, you indicated that I called you something.

Beetwasher, either you have a reading problem or you just live to antagonize people for the hell of it. Seriously, read all your posts on this one thread with comprehension. Really examine the way you relate to people. I believe you could grow up to spend your adult life in some prison. And please, save the smilies for when you are really happy about something. It makes you seem foolish.

[Beetwasher]

142. Umm, Einstein, I Suggest YOU Read My Posts, I Accused You Of Nothing

My first post, in it's entirety (notice the qualifiers, jeenyus. And since you're such an expert on comprehension, you should know what those are):

"So, He Saw Something He Can't Explain And That Means Aliens Exist?

How do you make that leap (if in fact you are)? :shrug:

Sorry, but eyewitness testimony is eminently unreliable. Who knows what his motivation might be, maybe he saw something he can't explain, or maybe he's lying. I have no idea and neither does anyone else except him.

For the record, UFO's, of course, exist. That they are alien craft is another matter altogether."

And as for YOUR post you wrote: "i know you are. that's obvious."

So, you DIDN'T call me something? On what fucking planet, Jeenyus? You sound like a 4th grader "I know you are but what am I! Nyahh nyahhh!!!"

Fucking pathetic. Admit your full of shit or go away. I won't stand for your idiotic brand of intellectually dishonesty and I will call you on it, if you can't take it, too fucking bad for you.

Yeah, I do have a problem. I have a problem w/ dishonest douchebags. I can't keep my thoughts about them to myself.

[Jack Sprat]

144. I have witnessed some pathetic actions by

people in my lifetime, but you are the most troubled individual I have ever come across in quite some time. If you do not seek medical help soon, then indeed you will need to be incarcerated in some facility in the very near future. In the meantime, I won't nothing more to do with you. Your hostility, your state of denial, and your obvious psychotic nature should place everyone on high alert for your presence.

You are quite possibly a product of a violent upbringing. There has likely been some forms of abuse inflicted upon you. This is another reason for you to seek medical care. There is no telling how much violence and abuse you have been subjected to. There has obviously been trauma to the head. Get help before you do harm to yourself or others.

[Beetwasher]

151. Blah blah blah, put up or shut jeenyus

Point out in my post where I did what you say I did.. You can't do that so you resort to idiotic psychobabble.

[Q3JR4]

42. I believe in UFOs, I

just don't think they're extraterrestrial in nature.

I would like one real piece of physical evidence that shows beyond a reasonable doubt that "they're here".

Exotic metals (studied by an independent panel of scientific experts who have experiences with metal and the properties of man-made metals) or new physics (something that holds up to experimentation, gives repeated results, and makes some kind of reasonable prediction) not found on this planet before would work.

I don't want to hear about your experiences or the experiences of your friends. I know enough about human memory to know how easily it can be deceived.

Please come back when you have something real. Then we can talk.

Q3JR4.

[Jack Sprat]

62. Are you talking to me?

I did not say they were extraterrestrial, did I? You don't want to hear about my experiences or the experiences of my friends. Then I suggest you avoid reading my posts. That's easy enough. Please come back when you can add to the conversation.

[smoogatz]

45. Where are the videos?

Where's the clear daytime video from multiple witnesses? If these things are so common, how come there's no video? On 9/11, multiple witnesses just happened to be pointing their cameras at the sky as the first (then the second) planes hit the towers. Everybody's got a video camera--they're everywhere. Why is there no convincing video of alien spacecraft?

[Speck Tater]

49. What would it take for a video to be "convincing?" NT

[smoogatz]

52. Read my post again.

Clear, daytime video from multiple sources of an alien or an alien spacecraft. A clear sense of scale and velocity would be helpful.

[frogmarch]

53. If any UFOs are crafts from

other planets, they are probably "manned" by robots, or something else on that order. Because of the vast distances the crafts would have to have traveled to get here and the time involved in the journey, the ET civilization that sent the crafts could even be extinct by now.

I don't believe we've been visited by ET spacecraft, and I'll continue not believing till there's solid evidence proving otherwise.

[defendandprotect]

58. It's a mistake to presume that what we experience as "vast distances" is what

another species would experience. Evidently there is such a thing as time travel!

And while there seem to be more than 50 different species, at least ....
we also have to presume that we are sharing the planet with some of them.
Perhaps for many hundreds of thousands of years????

[PVnRT]

148. Wha?

This post makes no sense.

[Jack Sprat]

63. what if they were not from other worlds

and they did not come from vast distances at all? what if they came from a parallel universe occupying approximately the same space? it will never fly, orville.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

133. I think the concept of a robot disappears in scientifically advanced cultures

Intelligent beings eventually integrate themselves into the machines they build and become one with them to the point where they are a form of synthetic life. They would be virtually immortal and, even if distances in space can't be shortened by use of worm holes, they would have a completely different grasp of the passage of time. In that case, the ET civilization might not be centralized at all but each branch of it could be evolving on its own as it travels the galaxy. I think that kind of intelligent life would be able to change their appearance and take on any form and shape of matter.

[defendandprotect]

54. Larry King will repeat --- or you can find it at "The Disclosure Project" . . .

[defendandprotect]

55. Larry King will repeat --- or you can find it at "The Disclosure Project" ---

This program is from last year --- December 2007, I believe . . . ???

Jimmy Carter tries to make clear that he never thought his sighting suggested "aliens visiting us" because he doesn't think that can be done!!!

[defendandprotect]

59. Right . .. . next to Roswell, I think that Brentwater is the biggest story . . .

and we certainly have witnesses more sure of themselves now ---
overcoming the "conspiracy/tin foil hat" attempts.

And THAT has been rather ironic because if any of this seems out of whack, it's the ridiculous
stories that supposedly suggest that people haven't seen what they have clearly seen ---
usually with large groups of other people!

The skeptics that the shows produce don't even seem to believe what they are saying ---
either they're laughing at anyone believing them, or they're laughing at their own effort
to try to supply these ridiculous explanations.

I also think that the discussion on the Larry King show about "fear" was interesting ---
I have no problem with this intellectually --- but I do know that emotionally I would have a problem. I thought the "god" thing probably is a problem for people who believe in one god theories...

I think of spirutality more as a universal thing --- the whole universe.

[Jack Sprat]

64. true enough. it's like the skeptics have become

the "kooks", rather than the other way around. the point i was trying to make in my op was not that the security police at bentwaters identified an alien craft, but that several airmen reported on, approached, viewed at close range, touched, and watched a craft unknown to them disappear back into the night sky. i can understand the skeptics saying that it doesn't prove it is a craft from an alien world, but to say that a group of air police and the deputy base commander at bentwaters fabricated this tale is absurd to me.

[defendandprotect]

76. So true . . .

the "kooks" are now those who deny UFO's, who deny Global Warming, those who invent a "god" who is violent and cares not for the poor. It's the upside down world of the r-w being turned right side up again!

In our overall understanding of life on this planet, I think that UFOs have to be added into the equation. Especially when we consider the PNAC and Star Wars.

Meanwhile, IMO, this is intelligent life --- not of our species --- and while there are evidently at least 57 different "Heinz" varieties as they one time joked -- presumably some of this life has shared the planet with us for hundreds of thousands of years.

Many would prefer ignorance on this subject, but I don't think that's possible any longer.

[Bill McBlueState]

89. your first paragraph

Do you really think that the same people who disbelieve UFOs also deny global warming and are theists?

As a counterexample, the majority of scientists I've ever met...

are unconvinced by the evidence for extraterrestrial visits
are convinced by the evidence for global warming
do not believe in any gods, violent or otherwise

[defendandprotect]

96. As I said, they're "kooks" . . .

the "kooks" are now those who deny UFO's, who deny Global Warming, those who invent a "god" who is violent and cares not for the poor. It's the upside down world of the r-w being turned right side up again!

No . . . I think they are what I said --- i.e., "KOOKS" . . .




HOWEVER, since you raise questions about religious views and these subjects, I would relate that the Vatican has no problem with concepts of "aliens" in human history. Nor do they have any problems with Evolution and "Creation" concepts co-existing.

Global Warming can also be connected to organized patriarchal religion's "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" -- concepts which gave license to the few to exploit nature, animal-life, natural resources --- and even other human beings according to various myths of inferiority. The patriarchal war on nature, however, seems to be coming to an end with a renewal of religious teachings which call for respect for nature and the earth/the Creation, itself.

Similarly, we have George Bush having told us that he "spoke with god" and "god" told him to attack Afghanistan --- and that later he spoke with "god" and "god told him to attack Iraq."
Evidently "god" has never told George Bush to avoid violence or tend to the poor.


Re this . . .
As a counterexample, the majority of scientists I've ever met...
are unconvinced by the evidence for extraterrestrial visits
are convinced by the evidence for global warming
do not believe in any gods, violent or otherwise

As far as we know, few scientists have studied the question of UFO's and extraterrestrials --
and I think it would be naive of anyone to consider these "visits" -- because it would be more likely that we have been sharing our planet with some of these "aliens" for more than a hundred thousands years --!!!

Scientists have not, either, studied the nature of a "conspiracy" among citizens to create rumors of abductions, nor hysteria or mental illness among those who relate these events.

Professor John Mack of Harvard, of course, was one to do so -- he was looking at the abduction stories and interviewing abductees. While Harvard was at first comfortable enough with this, later some agitation began and Mack had to fight to keep his position there. The studies went on; he wrote at least one book on the subject. And, sometime in the last two or three years, he was killed by a hit and run driver in England. And it doesn't seem to have been an accident.
Recently, I've heard that Harvard took on TWO debunkers.

We have had the Global Warming model since the late 1950's . . . and save for the interference of the oil industry and corrupt government, the public would have long ago understood the critical nature and consequences of our pollution of the planet. Scientists have warned us, but the power of well-directed and well-financed propaganda by the oil industry succeeded in blocking the truth for decades.

Since every intelligent person understands that there is no way to prove nor disprove the existence of a god, I would quite understand most people --- even scientists --- not believing
in a god concept.

That did not prevent, however, organized pariarchal religions from doing great harm with their violent "god" concepts.

[Outraged As Usual]

70. Astronaut Gordon Cooper admits a close encounter!!

Gordon Cooper did a filmed interview, available on Youtube, in which he tells of supervising a photo shoot of jet fighters in the desert decades ago, and witnessed a UFO LAND after letting three little feet down, and watched and filmed it before it took off again. He turned the film over the Washington, and of course never heard any more about it. If this is not confirmation, I do not know what is.

By the way, my exwife and I witnessed a huge, and I mean stupendously big, black triangle fly directly over us in early 1986 in rural western North Carolina. It had three red lights, one at each corner of the triangle, was totally silent, and moved about 250-300 feet above us at about 5 mph. It was scary as hell: It felt like it weighed a million tons and I was afraid that it would set straight down on us and squash us flat as as bugs ( we were on a motorcycle at the time ).

I have no idea if it was alien or military, but if it was ours, we are wasting a lot of fossil fuels because this was anti-gravity for sure. Imagine something the size of a battleship floating thru the sky, close by...it is unnerving and awesome at once. The craft rose in altitude as it passed over us and then cartwheeled off into the eastern sky. We were both stunned, and to this day I recall the incredible sight. UFO's are real, and I have no doubt that we have gotten some technology from the ' outsiders ' and are using it also....but no doubt it will stay in the black ops bag of trricks as long as money can be made from oil....so sad.

[Ghost in the Machine]

87. So have Astronauts Neil Armstrong & Buzz Aldrin...

The following astonishing conversation was picked up by ham radio operators that had their own VHF receiving facilities that bypassed NASA's broadcasting outlets. At this time, the live television broadcast was interrupted for two minutes due to a supposed "overheated camera", but the transmission below was received loud and clear by hundreds of ham radio operators:

According to Otto Binder, who was a member of the NASA space team, when the two moon-walkers, Aldrin and Armstrong were making their rounds some distance from the LEM, Armstrong clutched Aldrin's arm excitedly and exclaimed:

Armstrong: What was it? What the hell was it? That's all I want to know!"

Mission Control: What's there?... malfunction (garble) ... Mission Control calling Apollo 11 ...

Apollo 11: These babies were huge, sir!... Enormous!... Oh, God! You wouldn't believe it! ... I'm telling you there are other space-craft out there ... lined up on the far side of the crater edge! ... They're on the Moon watching us!

Wilson writes (p. 48): "Binder ends his report with this observation: 'There has, understandably, been no confirmation of this incredible report by NASA or any authorities. WE cannot vouch for its authenticity, but if true, one can surmise that mission control went into a dither and then into a huddle, after which they sternly the moonwalkers to 'forget' what they saw and carry on casually and calmly as if nothing had happened. After all, an estimated 600 million people around the world were hanging on every word spoken by the first two men to leave footprints on the Moon."

The book "Celestial Raise" by Richard Watson and ASSK records the following (continuation?) of the above remarkable dialogue of Apollo 11, which was picked up by hundreds of ham radio operators in the USA:

"During the transmission of the Moon landing of Armstrong and Aldrin, who journeyed to the Moon in an American spaceship, two minutes of silence occurred in which the image and sound were interrupted. NASA insisted that this problem was the result of one of the television cameras which had overheated, thus interfering with the reception.

This unexpected problem surprised even the most qualified of viewers who were unable to explain how in such a costly project, one of the most essential elements could break down... Some time after the historic Moon landing, Christopher Craft, director of the base in Houston, made some surprising comments when he left NASA.

The contents of these comments, which is included in the conversations , has been corroborated by hundreds of amateur radio operators who had connected their stations to the same frequency through which the astronauts transmitted. During the two minute interruption - which was not as it seemed, NASA, Armstrong and Aldrin with Cape Kennedy, censored both image and sound. 'I say that there were other spaceships.'

Here is reproduced completely the dialogue between the American astronauts and Control Center:

Armstrong & Aldrin: Those are giant things. No, no, no - this is not an optical illusion. No one is going to believe this!

Houston (Christopher Craft): What ... what ... what? What the hell is happening? What's wrong with you?

Armstrong & Aldrin: They're here under the surface.

Houston: What's there? (muffled noise) Emission interrupted; interference control calling 'Apollo 11'.

Armstrong & Aldrin: We saw some visitors. They were here for a while, observing the instruments.

Houston: Repeat your last information!

Armstrong & Aldrin: I say that there were other spaceships. They're lined up in the other side of the crater!

Houston: Repeat, repeat!

Armstrong & Aldrin: Let us sound this orbita ... in 625 to 5 ... Automatic relay connected ... My hands are shaking so badly I can't do anything. Film it? God, if these damned cameras have picked up anything - what then?

Houston: Have you picked up anything?

Armstrong & Aldrin: I didn't have any film at hand. Three shots of the saucers or whatever they were that were ruining the film

Houston: Control, control here. Are you on your way? What is the uproar with the UFOs over?

Armstrong & Aldrin: They've landed here. There they are and they're watching us.

Houston: The mirrors, the mirrors - have you set them up?

Armstrong & Aldrin: Yes, they're in the right place. But whoever made those spaceships surely can come tomorrow and remove them. Over and out.

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicphotos.html scroll about halfway down the page to: Apollo 11:

"I say that there were other spaceships!"

[defendandprotect]

97. That's interesting . .. but . . .

while I'm quite sure that anyone who spends any time in the sky is aware of UFO's, including
pilots --- military and commercial --- and especially astronauts --- there's another version
of this story.

Some have suggested that this immediately "leaked" rendition was made to construct an excuse
for our not returning to the moon.

It has been quite some long time --- !!!

I, for one, agree with the opinion that we probably have never landed live astronauts on the moon --- at least those named here --- and that these celebrity astronauts were probably only in NEAR space.

That wouldn't mean that the suspicion that the moon is used as kind of a base for UFO's would be wrong . . . or that it isn't kind of hallowed out . . . and UFO's underground there.

[Ghost in the Machine]

110. You think the Apollo Moon Landing was faked?

I have nothing... I'm at a loss for words...

[defendandprotect]

131. Let me stess . . . "I think" . ..

From what I've read about the challenges to the idea, I agree that it seems unlikely.
There's an interesting book still in the book stores called "Dark Moon" ---
and you will find a lot on the internet pro and con this issue.

The first and most important element is the Van Allen Radiation Belt which is even a bigger deal
than we previously recognized according to later discoveries recently. Keep in mind that even pilots who spend a lot of time in the skies suffer some consequences from radiation. The idea that we could have brought astronauts alive thru the belts seems unlikely to me. That doesn't mean that neither Russia nor the US has ever put astronauts on the moon -- the question is did any of us ever bring ever of them back safely?

To give you an idea of the seriousness of the Van Allen Belts, the first satellites which were put up by Russia showed the harsh reality of the impact of radiation on them. Astronauts also returned from projects with the inroad markings of radiation on their helmets.

One of the most astonishing bits of evidence, IMO, is that the US exploded three or more atomic weapons in space before the moon landings --- evidently in an effort to try to destroy the Van Allen Belts-!!

There are many other clues which argue against anything like what we've been told ---
One of the most interesting is a piece of film which was prepared by two prominent astronauts who were supposedly in outer space nearing the moon, but they were practicing covering the porthole widow with dark cloth -- with the moon in view -- so it would look like the atmosphere was black rather than blue. This "blue" vs black condition also appears in another film/photo.

There are many other considerations; for instance the fact that most of the computers at the time would have been about as powerful as those we all use right now.

Haven't thought about this in a long time . . .
but I'd also argue that it's a prime piece of real estate and had we had the ability to actually land on the moon, we would have taken up residence . . . I feel rather sure about that!

[Mountainman]

72. I still ask, were can I go to see physical evidence of UFOs and were are the medical reports about

abductions. Surely there must be some parts from a craft from another planet made with material we do not have on earth and surely if people were abducted they would have gone to their doctor to make sure they are OK.

The is nothing from a creditable third party that these things ever existed. I'm sure people see something but what? I doubt they are travelers from another planet. And yes I think there is other life in the universe it just doesn't come here to visit us.

[librechik]

79. You are like someone in the 12th century asking for physical evidence of bacteria

It's there. It's all around you. We just don't have the means to show it to you yet.


That's no reason to act as if you have the moral high ground. From your post you should be joining the quest to find the evidence, not scoffing at those in the quest because we are unsuccessful at convincing you.

[Mountainman]

82. Funny thinking, I ask where is the evidence and you criticize me for not taking things on faith.

It's not like bacteria at all. If something is there, there should be some effects of the cause. There aren't any effects so I doubt the cause!

And that is not scoffing or making fun of anything. I would like it proven to me. But it takes third party evidence to do that.

[librechik]

93. Asking you to have an open mind is not the same thing as asking you to take it on faith

I'm a scientist, not a true believer.

Perhaps one day the evidence will be clear. But no one will ever see it if people are convinced it is nonsense in advance.

[Mountainman]

95. If evidence is there people will see it. As a scientist, you take things on hear say or do you do

research and experimentation? Isn't the scientific method to experiment, gain evidence, then make statements? That's what I am doing. I never heard a scientist say, a lot of people believe something therefore it must be true.

[PVnRT]

149. Why does asking for evidence mean you have a closed mind?

[defendandprotect]

98. There is evidence; but obviously not in the hands of the public . . .

of course abductees supply evidence in the implants which have been removed ---
at least one of them capable of sending radio transmissions.

And, of course, the many sightings where hundreds of people have been involved as witnesses --
which would include the sightings in Mexico -- probably thousands there --- and in Phoenix.

If you find it that easy to dismiss eyewitnesses then I see no way that you would ever believe a photograph-!

[Mountainman]

100. Answer these questions please.

"abductees supply evidence in the implants which have been removed" Where are these implants? What do they look like? Why haven't there been reports in medical journals or the news of them?

The things that people see never leave any physical evidence, why?

Why is there no physical evidence? You won't answer that will you? You just say believe what people say.

I am not saying people haven't seen strange unexplainable things. I'm saying there is no physical evidence that we have been visited by beings from another planet and I am correct.

I do not believe what people see are craft from another universe or planet. I do not believe that anyone has made contact with beings from another planet. I am saying that you cannot show me evidence that that has taken place.

Why do people believe this when they are skeptical of most things that can't be proven to exist?

On edit, you can't make your case more solid by discounting what I say, it either stands on it's on merits or it doesn't.

[librechik]

101. I have a theory, but it is not really an answer

Some of the sightings may be holographic in nature. That would explain the lack of physical evidence left behind, even though they leave images on photographic and video film. But that is only one type of UFO. Many others are made secretly by our own government contractors, for instance. It is really too large a subject to address briefly on a topic forum.

There is actually quite a lot of physical evidence if you look into it with an open mind, Mountain Man.
Numerous astronauts are convinced they have been witnesses to non-terrestrial artifacts. It wasn't fairy dust that convinced them.

[Mountainman]

104. Physical evidence would be available for study. Something some one has not something someone has

seen only. Like in a research lab or something. And it most likely would be of a composition we don't have here on earth. I have never heard any reports as to the existence of any.

Everyone here who believes they are extraterrestrials seems to discount the fact that there is no physical evidence. Why not just admit that? Say "I believe in extraterrestrials have visited earth leaving no physical evidence." Why? Because it doesn't make logical or rational sense does it?

[librechik]

108. I f there is any REAL physical evidence you can be sure shmucks like you and me will NEVER see it

or hear about it.

so we will just have to go around forever making our silly speculations about videos and marks in the ground and wonder how that was done with the means we know about.

[Mountainman]

109. I'm not trying to argue whether there are visitors from other planets.

I just happen to not believe there are. And I am curious as to why people do believe there are. The idea that we will never hear about evidence if it exists is convenient and quite possibly true. I can understand not wanting to panic people, but I do think that someone could have gotten something and we would learn about it.

I am not saying anything negative about those who believe I just don't and for the reasons given.

I kind of feel about this as I do about the fact that I don't enjoy going to Starbucks or Trader Joe's, that really pisses off my wife. I'm not making a statement about people who shop there. I just don't see any advantage to going there.

[dysfunctional press]

126. wow- i do bongs and watch star trek: voyager too...

small world...:hi:

[defendandprotect]

103. If you have curiosity about the "implants" have you never . . .

watched any of the programs about them?

There is a recent program on the History Channel which is kind of doing a review of all the
major events --- and that included removal of some implants from abductees --- this has been
going on for quite some time, both the recognition that most abductees can locate implants on their bodies -- and that some have sought to have them removed. You might catch up with that program which explains who is doing the removal and what they find.

Also, PLEASE, keep in mind that the Journal of American Medicine tells us that the Warren Commission was valid and Oswald killed JFK --- !!!

And, how come so many people have seen UFO's -- including that they often register on radar screens -- but evidently our astronomers never do?

Why do we have military/CIA telling people not to discuss these events/sightings-?

There are also, of course, many excellent books --- anything by Budd Hopkins I'd recommend.

From the first reported case of Benny and Barney Hill, there has been physical evidence ...
but who has been studying it? As I recall, Barney had radiation marks on his body --- and
their car certainly did. Many, many victims have physical evidence of many kinds. Many women have experienced what they thought were spontaneous miscarriages which they found suspicious.
Many were confirmed pregnancies.

No one here is telling you to believe anything --- on the contrary, we are questioning your interest level --- your lack of curiosity -- and lack of knowledge of the subject.

[Mountainman]

106. I don't have a lack of curiosity about it. I've seen the shows on TV and heard the people

on Coast to Coast AM. I don't believe them and I ask the same question of them. Where is the physical evidence? No onE has any! Why?

Why are so many people prone to believe in something they can't prove exists? Until someone has physical evidence that can be studied scientifically by reputable institutions no one can prove there are visitors from other planets.

[defendandprotect]

119. Well....circular arguments may be your thing but they're not going . . .

to actually advance you in any way.

However, you claim to NOT have a lack of curiosity about the subject --- so you seem destined
to wander around asking the same question . . . for how long?

If you've seen the TV shows and the removal of the implants then you know there was something physical/actual removed from their bodies. Most of these people have sighting/abduction experiences. Are you possibly suggesting that these people are involved in a conspiracy to implant themselves?

However, again, if there is physical evidence --- a crashed flying saucer, alien bodies ---
who is going to have them? The citizen or the government/military?

Meanwhile, I don't see that anyone here is committed to a BELIEF about any of this, but I do
see that many are open-minded about the possibilities and don't exclude eyewitness testimony.

Maybe you need some new questions?


"A belief system is the end, not the beginning, of all knowledge"

[dysfunctional press]

127. if implants had been removed from people, why are there no pictures of the implants?

or are we ultimately just suppose to take someone's word for it that there were implants removed?

i wouldn't/won't believe in a god(s) without actual physical evidence- why should i believe in alien life/intelligence without the same evidence?

[defendandprotect]

128. You tell me that you've seen the TV shows re the implants . . .

but then you make clear that you really probably haven't seen them because there are, of course,
pictures of the implants --- !!!

Again --- no one is asking you to believe in anything ---

this is about opening up your mind to information ---

no one here necessarily BELIEVES in this because we have no final proof of it ---

We are saying that there is something there which doesn't equate to what our government is

saying.

[dysfunctional press]

130. i never said that i have...what programs are you talking about?

:shrug:

where could i see a picture of a supposed implant?

[Mountainman]

107. By the way, I was born on Wright Patterson AFB the home of project Blue Book.

I grew up with Project Blue Book stories in the Dayton Daily News. I probably have more years hearing about UFO sightings than most people here.

[defendandprotect]

120. And didn't the one-time commander of that base make a death-bed...

affirmation to this niece or granddaughter about the Roswell/alien events --- ???

And, of course, the Project Blue Book conclusions left many of the sightings as unexplained events --- and didn't one of the prominent members of that group later begin to take up
the arguments for the other side?

[deutsey]

121. Photographic proof:

[SidDithers]

74. IBTM...

Sid

[truth2power]

75. Aurora...

I don't think they're extraterrestrial, but they do exist. US Military is my guess.

Here's an article about the supposedly "non-existent" Aurora craft.

http://www.ufocasebook.com/auroramystery.html

Nick Cook discusses Aurora in his book. The thing about these triangle shaped craft that are being reported is that they hover and make almost no noise and then accelerate at amazing speeds. It seems that they are using some sort of advanced propulsion system.

Reading "Zero Point" makes it at least plausible to me that the Nazis were working on some sort of anti-gravity technology during WWII. If you read what Cook has to say, it's not really that impossible to have achieved.

Saucers. Triangles. It's all of a piece. People are seeing what they claim to be seeing.

[Xithras]

80. I've seen several "UFO's" in my life. None were from another planet.

The most interesting was a broad daylight spotting of what appeared to be a large metallic craft making impossible turns in broad daylight. I grabbed two friends and we were amazed. We were sitting there guessing that it was easily a couple hundred feet across, that it was moving at hundreds of miles an hour, etc.

Then it dove low, and we were actually able to get some perspective on it against a line of trees on the horizon. It turned out to be an interesting looking RC aircraft that some guy was flying about a mile from us, and it was no more than 6-7 feet across. In the open cloudless sky, with nothing to reference against, our minds tricked us into thinking that it was larger and faster than it really was.

I don't question that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. I just don't think they're visiting us. If you talk to most UFO believers, their beliefs (and the logical leaps they're willing to make to support them) have more in common than religion than science. I enjoyed listening to Art Bell and his guests discuss this many years ago, but I never for a moment actually believed any of them. I suspect that he didn't either.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

81. "None were from another planet"

Unless you spoke to the pilots of these craft, what is your proof?

[Mountainman]

84. You can't prove a negetive!

[Xithras]

91. You realize this is the EXACT argument used by religions?

This is the fundamental dividing line between science and religion. Science asks you to believe in things because there is evidence or duplicable facts and experiments supporting an idea. Religion asks you to believe in things because there is no evidence that they DON'T exist. It offers no hard fact of its own, but instead bases it's reality on the lack of countermanding evidence.

My backyard is inhabited by a 14 foot tall purple gnome with a glandular disorder. That is a fact simply because I say so. Unless you speak to my neighbors or inspect my property directly yourself, according to your logic, you MUST believe me because you have no proof that I'm making it up. Or that I didn't just have a drunken hallucination when I tripped in the flower garden last weekend, nearly cracking my head open on my wifes little gnome thing.

I've seen UFOs. I've seen odd things in the sky that appeared to defy logic. I've also seen many explained, and see NO reason to assume the rest are from another planet.

Here's a scientific fact for you. Not one abductee or contact situation has ever been studied by actual scientists or medical professionals with degrees related to the fields they're purportedly researching, and had the results of that research or study published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal for analysis by others in the field. If you look closely at the studies, you'll usually find that the "doctors" and "scientists" who call themselves UFOlogists barely qualify for those titles, or were not permitted to examine the evidence in situ. I recall one case that was publicized on the Art Bell show where believers were talking about alien implants and how some bigwig doctor had confirmed that it was of alien origin. It turned out that he had been provided a small vial with a tiny bit of metal an it, along with the story that it had been extracted from a human body. The doctor was asked to confirm whether it was alien or natural. The doctor, not realizing the intent, simply confirmed that it was alien...to the human body. It didn't even occur to the guy that they were asking about little green men. Then there was another guy, a scientist who proudly carried the title "doctor" and was a regular researcher who was cited in those circles. It turned out that the guy was a retired assistant superintendent from a school system, and had his Ed.D.

The problem is that THESE are the kinds of people driving the UFO movement. There are lots of true believers (again, a religious term) who have faith (again) that alien life is visiting us, but the "evidence" to support it is rare and tends to come from unreliable people, or becomes public only with tremendous distortion. UFO believers simply want us to take them at their words. There are too many mentally unstable people in the world with cravings for fame for me to do that. I need evidence. Objective, scientific evidence that can be analyzed by third parties. So-called UFOlogists consistently fail to provide that.

[Mountainman]

83. I liked listening to Art Bell also, the UFO believers he had on were never people with real

important or impressive scientific positions. They were most times selling books. Why do you think that stuff is on when most people are sleeping? If it were real we would have heard and read about it in legitimate media during the daylight hours.

[pitohui]

88. i believe some of these events were staged by gov'ts

i don't doubt the honesty of the men's testimony, however, i'm not as sure that what they saw and touched was what they thought they saw and touched

i have witnessed some amazing things, esp. in close-in magic -- a magician put cards in my hand and took them out of my SHOE -- this in an entire room full of people at caesar's palace -- so i'm confident that there are ways to game the human mind and to trick the human brain and that an entire group of people can be fooled in that way

naive to think that various gov'ts haven't tested the limits of how people's minds can be tricked and manipulated to believe things, even incredible things, just to test and see how far good honest people can be pushed


i also believe some craft seen over the years were experimental craft, in fact, we know now that some of these craft were -- the "craft" that was found at roswell, they now have a copy of it at the national atomic museum at alburquerque and they admit that it was a device for testing radiation -- they could not admit to what the device was back in the 40s, when these studies of fall out were still classified -- you can go to this museum and see for yourself, no reason to just take my word

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

94. I think that if we were visited by beings from across the galaxy

that by the time they developed a technology capable of reaching us, they probably would have merged their natural biology with machines. They probably could take any shape they wanted or even appear invisible. The ashtray on my desk could be an alien.

I don't doubt that people are seeing strange things in the sky. When I was 11 years old, I saw lights flying over the city of Madison, Wisconsin doing right angle turns, loop-the-loops, and moves no terrestrial vehicles could possibly make. My family was staying at a motel on the edge of town and dozens of people were looking up at the sky, wondering what those lights might be.

I don't know how to explain what I saw or what other people have seen. But I just wonder why extremely advanced civilizations would fly around in ships when they could probably send tiny microdevices to study us, devices that could pose as everyday objects, or that could probably render themselves completely invisible to us.

[defendandprotect]

99. The idea that we are being "visited" is naive . . .

we may have been sharing this planet with what we call "alien" life for hundreds of thousands of years. We may be a product of their genes for all we know? We are more than likely a hybrid.

Granted, if there are at least 57 known other species -- "Heinz 57" as they called them ---
many are perhaps newer visitors. On the other hand, some may exist in a different dimension than we inhabit.

These are not only air spaceships --- some are connected to underground life in oceans/rivers.

I recently saw Bob Dean in an interview which I think was done a bit of a time ago --- *
Basically, Bob had a background in NATO, and claimed that in the early 1960s he read a thick, classified document titled The Assessment that detailed a wealth of startling secrets pertaining to alien visitations to Earth.

Here's a transcript of an interview with him which I haven't read ....

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/cosmic_topsecret03.htm

* and I found the video
http://theuniversalseduction.com/articles/ufos-interview-with-bob-dean-bob-dean-part-3-introducing-marcia-schafer

But --- basically Dean seems to be suggesting that we are at some outer edge of the universe in our location and that there is much life --- which is coming to gather us up and move us along
in our relationships with the rest of the universe.

Obviously, our scientists have also wondered about "time travel" which they seem to confirm.
And there is the "wrinkle in time" theory ---

Next thing you know we'll be discussing reincarnation --- !!!

[Orsino]

105. Show me the testimony of all the others present...

...and I'll be impressed if their stories corroborate one another.

[EndElectoral]

114. I beleive Dick Cheney is an alien being.

[seemslikeadream]

124. Learn to fly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W35SYkfdGtw

Into the distance, a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?

Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies
Tongue-tied and twisted just an earthbound misfit, I

Ice is forming on the tips of my wings
Unheeded warnings, I thought I thought of everything
No navigator to find my way home
Unladen, empty and turned to stone

A soul in tension that's learning to fly
Condition grounded but determined to try
Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies
Tongue-tied and twisted just an earthbound misfit, I

Above the planet on a wing and a prayer,
My grubby halo, a vapour trail in the empty air
Across the clouds I see my shadow fly
Out of the corner of my watering eye
A dream unthreatened by the morning light
Could blow this soul right through the roof of the night

There's no sensation to compare with this
Suspended animation, a state of bliss
Can't keep my mind from the circling skies
Tongue-tied and twisted just an earthbound misfit, I

[seemslikeadream]

136. ..........

part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLkxulC0sQk
part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGVWXq_xSoo&feature=related
part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtdOQSOQ6hU&feature=related
part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUcKXWe0VYk&feature=related
part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcheazhs6S4&feature=related
part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zAjK3TiWck&feature=related
part 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvjtRSTArm4&feature=related
part 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_fphqMSDQs&feature=related
part 9 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_NE0WLyz9o
part 10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsuuDgcLXy8&feature=related
part 11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5oKCYfYmYs&feature=related

[Anarcho-Socialist]

145. with thanks to mr blur

[shadowknows69]

146. I'm familiar with that story

And I agree, one of the more compelling eyewitness accounts out there.

[Birthmark]

153. I have yet to see any evidence that UFOs

...represent any intelligent life from elsewhere in the universe --and that includes elsewhere in time. Yes, people see things in the sky that they can't identify. But "can't identify" is a wholly subjective term dependent upon the knowledge and experience of the observer. Most observers have little knowledge of all the possible phenomena that might appear in the sky. Some perfectly natural atmospheric phenomena are probably so rare, relying on a very specific set of circumstances, that they almost never occur.

There are additional problems such as scale, excitement of the observer, and even the biases of the observer come into play. Our very own sensory apparatus is unreliable under unusual circumstances. Common, ordinary phenomena can be interpreted as something entirely different simply because of the way the human brain works. (I can provide an interesting personal anecdote about this.)

So the fact that someone sees strange lights in the sky means one thing: That that person saw something that they can't explain. I'll take almost everyone at their word. I believe that they did see something and that they can't explain it. But assigning an explanation to that observation usually requires a lot more work and is sometimes impossible. It's not impossible because it's unearthly. It's impossible because we don't have enough information to make reach an informed conclusion or even an educated guess.