How does this makes you feel?

[Hutzpa]

Just saw this new Vogue cover and would like to get an opinion from
DU.

here is the cover;

[LisaM]

1. Well, seeing as I am a Pistons' fan

I don't like it! Put a Piston on, for God's sake.

[LWolf]

2. Nothing.

I glance at it and pass it by, without stopping to think about anything I'm seeing.

Is there something significant there that should catch my attention?

[Speck Tater]

3. Cute couple. NT

[MADem]

4. Why is that fellow yelling when he's got his arm around that pretty lady?

What's he pissed off about?

Get rid of the basketball, fool!!

[krkaufman]

24. I thought the particular pose seemed peculiar, too. And then I received this image from my nephew..

... making it totally clear.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3064237&mesg_id=3066158

[El Pinko]

28. I dunno, I think the idea was to show a passionate athlete and a gorgeous girl together...

She doesn't look like she feels threatened, and he is inexplicably in the throes of a heated game while holding her.

Doesn't make sense, but I seriously doubt that the photographer was traying to make them look like King Kong and Fay Wray.

[krkaufman]

29. Did you LOOK at the image to which I linked?

I don't think the photographer was going for King Kong & Fay Wray, either.

[El Pinko]

32. Of course I did. Do you have some evidence that the photographer has even seen that pic?

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

[krkaufman]

34. Do you mean *other* than the poses being nearly identical to the poster?

... along with the color composition, LeBron's teeth-baring, LeBron's weapon in his right hand, Lady Liberty in his right.

And, apparently, Liebowitz has a penchant for such recreations.

:shrug:

[El Pinko]

38. I think it's coincidental. And I think it's nasty to imply that James resembles a mad gorilla.

I don't think he looks like a gorilla here, and I don't think the model looks remotely threatened. This whole topic pointlessly insults the photographer and her subjects because of a coincidental similarity of poses.

Honestly, like there aren't more serious things to grouse about?

[krkaufman]

41. I am certainly not saying that LeBron resembles a gorilla, and it's nasty to say I did.

I am saying that it is obvious to anyone with eyesight better than Bubbles that Liebowitz was obviously recreating the old propaganda poster scene.

As for insulting the photographer, I don't see how it's an insult. Especially as she is known for such recreations.

p.s. If there are more serious things to grouse about, then what are you even doing in this thread, let alone responding to posts in it?
:shrug:

[girl gone mad]

36. Yes, it's clearly a take on the poster.

But, so?

The photo is cute. LeBron looks like he's having fun. Giselle looks like she's having fun. No implied racism on the Vogue cover, just a cheeky take on a now campy iconic image.

[krkaufman]

46. I don't argue regarding the photo itself, absent any knowledge of the propaganda poster.

I'd originally viewed it merely as a study in contrasts, between the hulking athlete and the dainty supermodel -- thinking only that some would quibble over the racial mix.

As for the propaganda poster, I'm relieved that you find the comparison as obvious as I do. (seem pretty plain, to me) Another DUer considers my comparison of the two to be insulting to the photographer (Liebowitz), for some reason.

:shrug:

As for any offense, I take none... but then I'm not LeBron James, Giselle Bundtcake, nor am I African American. I would, however, understand if some in the African American community are less than elated that, of all the images to recreate, Annie Liebowitz opted for one in which an African American man takes the place of a "mad brute" ape.

[MADem]

49. I dunno. LeBron should be carrying a club and pick up Giselle, in that case.

The basketball and her pose don't match at all.

If they were wanting to "emulate" that propaganda poster, they did a rather poor job of it, and they've got dough--surely they could have done better if they wanted to.

[krkaufman]

74. inspiration vs emulation... the cover photo was "inspired" by the propaganda poster....

... I don't believe that Annie Liebowitz was trying to emulate or replicate it. Taking your critique further, the photo would need to have been on a beach, with a destroyed metropolis in the background, and LeBron should be wearing a helmet, sans tennis shoes, and should be in an ape suit; and Giselle's dress should be dropped to expose both of her breasts.

Do note that, rather than a club, LeBron *does indeed* have his weapon of choice at hand... a basketball.

[MADem]

76. I think the whole controversy is a bit...manufactured. It smells like fake outrage to me.

The old 'put it out there, have someone else drum up the outrage, play the denial game'...and in the meantime, people get interested in the periodical. Some even buy it, thinking it will have collector value.

I suppose a basketball could be a weapon--if ya bean someone on the head with one!

[krkaufman]

78. It's not for me to declare whether someone's outrage is fake or real ...

... justified or unjustified; though I do find it humorous when those not offended characterize other's anger or outrage as "fake" or "feigned."

I'm just putting the propaganda poster out there, because it is so obviously the inspiration for the Vogue cover. I'll leave it for Annie Liebowitz, Vogue, LeBron and Giselle to speak for what they may have been trying to communicate, and I'll leave it to those more affected by racism than me to speak for their degree of outrage or apathy.

[MADem]

79. I think everyone is affected by racism, no matter what their skin tone. But I also think that

some outrages are manufactured, and I'm not at all fearful or reticent to note that, and I certainly think it is my "place" to do so as well, as a member of this society of somewhat indeterminate hue. I think others are also welcome to chime in with opposing viewpoints. If people don't talk about this crap, it will fester. Nothing like light and air on any topic.

The devil is always in the details, though. Did Annie L. "trick" LeBron and Giselle into striking that pose? Or were they willing "victims" and shown the supposed inspiration for the shot? Was it an oddball coincidence? Was it parody, or commentary of some artistic sort? Or was it deliberate and knowing, for whatever reason (and a copyright violation, this one), like this:



I think controversy is good for business, is all. And "racism" is the Flavor du Jour, lately. It just wouldn't surprise me if this entire imbroglio was given a little goose for the specific purpose of inciting discussion.

[krkaufman]

81. sunshine as disinfectant

... which was my "motive" for posting the propaganda poster, to make clear the inspiration for the Vogue cover photo.

Your questions...

Did Annie L. "trick" LeBron and Giselle into striking that pose? Or were they willing "victims" and shown the supposed inspiration for the shot? Was it an oddball coincidence? Was it parody, or commentary of some artistic sort? Or was it deliberate and knowing, for whatever reason (and a copyright violation, this one)

... are what I'm curious, though not overly concerned, about. We may never hear from Annie L on the issue.

The intent aside, anyone familiar with the original poster would have to be clueless not to foresee some outrage over the Vogue cover photo. And, as you say, that may have been the true intent.

[otherlander]

86. An angry macho guy and a hot lady.

It sells.
*sigh*

[stellanoir]

5. I left the room this morning and they were screaming about it on the Today

show when I came back.

I shut it off immediately.

Sheesh 4000 dead and they're screaming about a photo shoot.

Ughhh

[angel823]

70. yes

indeed.

[Virginia Dare]

84. NO such thing as bad pub..

they'll sell a ton of magazines because of this "controversy".

[polichick]

6. I'm hoping the girl gets out of the way before she gets run down on the court.

[jkshaw]

11. That's the sort of thing I was thinking, polichick

I thought, I hope he doesn't step on her dress!

[MrCoffee]

7. Go win a championship already, King James.

[ColbertWatcher]

8. I recognize LeBron...

...but who is the hairdo?

Oh, wait...Gisele somebody...professional girlfriend? model?

Good lord.

Top athletes and models.

LOL

Who came up with this idea?

And what other athlete/model combinations did they include?

John Daly and Kate Moss????

[slackmaster]

9. I your headline needs an additional verb

:hi:

[Hutzpa]

15. Thanks - Thinking faster than I type n/t

[didact]

10. I thinkin' there's no way that girl can check Lebron in the paint*

[MrCoffee]

12. She's got a hell of a post move.

[murielm99]

13. If he is going to play basketball, he needs to tell that girl

to sit down somewhere or change her clothes before she goes on the court.

[Blue-Jay]

14. I felt the same way as I did before I saw that picture.

OK... So?

[alstephenson]

16. Ha! I saw this on the Today show.

Much ado about nothing. Are you ready for this? Supposedly "some African-Americans" are insulted by the photo (taken by the famous photographer Annie Liebowitz) because it looks like KING KONG - with the fair-haired lady and all. So there is a comparison being made between black men and big, angry gorillas. WTF???

[krkaufman]

25. Well, take a look at this, and you tell me.

Is Lebron the "mad brute" ape, or the unconscious Lady Liberty?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3064237&mesg_id=3066158

[Karenina]

17. Link to discussion in Editorials

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x347987

[blues90]

18. It only irritates me as it does when I see crap mags like

this while standing in a line in the store . I always think , who the hell in their right mind cares about these people or what they do as if it really means a damn thing at all .

[GoneOffShore]

19. No way she's going to make a jump shot in those shoes.

[MADem]

50. I remember, a long while ago, there was a commercial for ladies' high heeled shoes

that had all of these Robert Palmer type models playing basketball in high heels--the idea they were selling is that the shoes were comfortable!

[Warpy]

20. Mixed feelings

First, it would be less stereotypical if he'd had his mouth shut and been smiling instead of "roaring like a gin maddened...."

Second, this cover with a large black male with his arm around a blonde supermodel's waist could never have been done just a few short years ago.

It's an annoying stereotype. It demonstrates the progress we have made.

[Karenina]

21. I must admit, Warpy

when I saw it I choked on my drink in an effort to spare my keyboard. I laughed even harder when my ESL students printed out a larger version of the photo itself w/o text. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Hutzpa]

22. I'm along that line too

but I must admit, some of the responses are very patronizing.

[krkaufman]

23. Ok. Now how does THIS make you feel?

My nephew sent me this image, of a WW-I US military recruitment propaganda poster, evidently the inspiration for the Vogue cover...

http://www.digitaldesk.org/projects/secondary/propaganda/destroy_brute.html

[Mind_your_head]

42. I see two people "doing what they do best"

Not threatening or intimidating to each other at all. Just a juxtaposition of different lifestyles/attitudes/strengths~weakness (and the strength is not all his, nor the 'weakness' all hers)...happily co-existing.

I've never seen that war poster before reading this post, so I would never make that connection.

How does it make me feel? Happy/sad. Why can't we call just get along with each other? We all really desire to do that, we just can't Q - U -I-T-E get over "it must be done MY way, then we can all get along". A battle that has been fought since the beginning of time.....*sigh* Our own egos are 'nasty little buggers'.

[krkaufman]

43. Ok. So you don't think Annie Liebowitz was recreating that WW-I propaganda poster? n/t

[Mind_your_head]

44. I dunno......maybe she was. So what? It's an obscure reference even if it was intentional

I'm 48 and I've never seen that poster before today ... and I've read and travelled a bit. It's not gonna "resonate" with anybody.

[krkaufman]

48. So you can't make a definitive statement on the comparison between the two?

... or are avoiding doing so?

I ask, because discussing this with someone unable to recognize the obvious similarities would be as pointless as spending an afternoon in GD:P.

I'm 43 and I'd never seen the poster before my nephew forwarded it to me this evening. But not having seen the poster before is irrelevant. I simply understand that, if/when the comparison hits the MSM, many people are going to be offended that Liebowitz opted to recreate a scene in which an African American man takes the place of a "mad brute" ape. Happiness and color composition aside... James is a stand-in for an mad brute ape in the original.

[Hutzpa]

77. My question to you is this

how convenient for your nephew to forward this poster at this particular time,
I would call that coincedence...but then again I don't believe in coincidence
thats just me.....:shrug:

Until today, I've never in my life time seen such poster and I've traveled
around too, I'm not sure whats your motive for making the comparison,
i'm sure YOU can define that.

[krkaufman]

80. My answer for you is this

My 16-year-old nephew is a sports geek, and so I assume that he stumbled across the WWI image in one of the many sports discussion forums that he frequents -- as I'd be bloody astonished that he made the link between the two, himself. (He's dang smart, but he's not exactly a photography, art or history buff.) I'm still waiting to hear back from him as to exactly how/where he came across it; in the meantime, I've only come across one other website highlighting the WWI poster, causing my curiosity to grow.

I'm not sure how my nephew forwarding the image to me was "convenient", in that he only forwarded the image, sans links, and so I had to do some googling to verify it wasn't some recently manufactured image. And it *was* coincidental, in that it fell out of a separate, unrelated email discussion regarding a (supposedly) satirical piece on LeBron James, in reply to a comment by me:

3/26 8:45pm - ME: But I was *really* thinking the article was going to be about the Vogue magazine brouhaha, where some are saying it was somehow racially insensitive.


LeBron James Vogue Cover Criticized For "Perpetuating Racial Stereotypes"

3/26 10:33pm - NEPHEW: Perhaps related to this WWI propaganda: (image embedded)

3/26 11:40pm - ME: Wow! That's a lot more plausible than the generic "King Kong" stuff being thrown around in that article. I don't see how they couldn't have been doing a recreation of that poster, given the similarities. Thanks for forwarding, (name removed). Where'd ya find it?

That was the extent of our discussion on the matter. I've no idea what your motivations are for trying to cast my sourcing and publishing of the propaganda image as some malevolent conspiracy, as all I was trying to do was provide background information on the "controversy" that became available to me.

The similarity between the two images makes it obvious to me that the WW I poster was Liebowitz's inspiration for the Vogue cover photo. If you don't see or can't admit that, there's nothing I can do to help.

[mondo joe]

52. So LeBron is German?

?

[alphafemale]

72. snicker

:rofl:

:yourock:

[krkaufman]

83. That would seem a bit too literal for a work of art, Annie Liebowitz's interpretation ....

... of the WWI propaganda poster. Another DUer similarly commented that Liebowitz had failed to perfectly replicate the poster, citing the absence of a club in LeBron's hand or a helmet on his head. Of course, the hyper-critical or ultra-obtuse might also point-out the absence of a devastated city in the background, that the photo shoot wasn't on a beach, that Giselle's dress hasn't fallen to reveal her breasts and that she's not in a state of utter despair, and that LeBron is wearing tennis shoes and isn't in an ape suit.

It's the difference between interpretation and replication.

To your specific point, pretending that it was more than merely a childish retort, LeBron is not German, to the best of my knowledge. But it is possible that the Germanic reference may be one factor that triggered Liebowitz's selection of the poster. Giselle Bündchen is of German heritage.

[bbgrunt]

26. she somehow reminds me of a contemporary version

of the statue of liberty and he is the big angry black man taking over our country. Very nasty subliminal image.

[krkaufman]

30. That's exceedingly perceptive ...

... if you haven't yet seen the image in the post just above yours, here

[mondo joe]

54. Taking over? Does she look menaced or threatened or unhappy?

?

[Echo In Light]

56. A trophy?

[mondo joe]

60. Wait - which offensive image is this supposed to be again?

Hard to keep track.

[El Pinko]

27. Nothing much. Don't know why the ball player seems to be shouting at the camera...

...but whatever - it does seem that every headline on the cover is talking about diet or body shape topics of one kind or another - Isn't Vogue supposed to be a fashion mag?

[krkaufman]

35. Re: "why ... shouting at the camera..."

Obviously, to replicate the scene in the propaganda poster, where the "mad brute" ape is bearing its teeth.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3064237&mesg_id=3066158

[El Pinko]

40. So Liebowitz told James "Okay, gimme your best 'mad ape' face. Yes, loving it, FIERCE!"

This is so insulting to this photographer, and all because of a coincidental similarity.

Unbelievable that people make time to scrutinize nonsense like this.

[krkaufman]

45. I have no idea what happened on the photo shoot, nor will I speculate on it.

I will simply crack a smile when Liebowitz and/or Vogue comes forth and admits that the cover photo *was* based on the propaganda poster.

I've got no skin in the game, and am not making any racial/racist judgements. I just thought the King Kong & Fay Wray references were vague, but that this propaganda poster matched-up in too many ways for it to be coincidental. (Note LeBron's stance; LeBron's weapon in his right hand, damsel in his left; teeth-baring roar; the color of outfits; Giselle's hairstyle.) And the fact that Liebowitz is known for such recreations makes the case for all but the most obstinate.

[Karenina]

55. Wonder how many copies of this issue they'll sell...

Nothing like controversy, eh? ;-)

[krkaufman]

71. If nothing else, it may be making some people aware ...

... that there is a magazine called Vogue. As for current-issue sales, I'm not sure... since the controversy isn't about any of the content, but just the cover -- which anyone can see for free via the Internet.

[cynatnite]

31. Jealous...

I wish I had a figure like her. :(

[girl gone mad]

37. Don't be.

I've got a figure like hers and people seem to love telling me I'm too skinny, I must be anorexic, etc.

I wish I was 6 feet tall though. That would be fun, if just for a few days..

I'd also like to be voluptuous. I guess everyone thinks the grass is greener.

[cynatnite]

39. I always hated being 'voluptuous'....

When I was in school, boys teased me. I hated it so much and I got into wearing loose-fitting shirts. I just want a few days of a normal breast size.

Yeah, you're right. Grass is greener. :)

[alphafemale]

33. I think it's cute. They look like they were really having fun. But then....

I don't think black men are frightening.

Not even large black men.

Not even large black men shouting in a playful way.

[orleans]

47. makes me feel "ouch" like she just stepped on his toe and he's screaming n/t

[mondo joe]

51. It makes me feel like LeBron is hot.

Thanks.

[Echo In Light]

53. Makes me think of where I work: most young white women there prefer black men

[Marie26]

57. Well, the contradiction

between headlines that scream, diet, diet, fit, lose weight, & a size zero model, and then saying there's a "perfect fit" for 0-16 sizes. When clearly anything more than a size zero is unacceptable to Vogue. Anyway, that's what I noticed. I didn't really see the parallels you've attempted to draw.

[October]

58. I didn't think anything of it

They both look to be having fun.

I saw the poster, though, and was stunned by the similarity.

The big difference is that they're having fun -- she's going along willingly.

I haven't read Vogue's take on this -- or the photographer's.

[Subdivisions]

59. LeBron James is in the photo? Where? n/t

[Aviation Pro]

61. Like I need to run another 5K today....

...but then again I want to see what kind of shape they'll be in at 50.

[Bensthename]

62. She's a little overdressed for a game of 1 on 1.

[Dr. Strange]

63. That's a foul! Come on, ref!

That's my first thought. Where did Gisele learn to play defense?

[KansDem]

64. Personally, I'm offended when people shout at me...

But I'm even more offended when trashy magazines think I want to see pictures of people shouting at me...

[Echo In Light]

65. But it's so "extreme!" ...ly stupid

[EnviroBat]

66. It make me sick that we live in a society that idolizes athletes

and "pretty" people... Sports are fucking stupid.

[Echo In Light]

69. Symbolism: what is represented makes it easy for the few to sell the packaged ideal to the many

Without them realizing - or wanting to realize - the underlying representation. All too human.

[magellan]

67. A basketball player and a model

...both in "vogue" I assume since their names appear below as if everyone knows who they are. But I don't recognize either of them.

I've read some of the other posts here and I don't see the racial stereotypes. Just the cultural ones. I hate to say it but this is symbolic of what concerns America most -- sports heroes, beauty, the rich and famous.

[EnviroBat]

68. Jock itch can be extrreme,,ly painful!

Looks like somebody put his nuts in a vice. That, or the pretty girl just farted.

[progressoid]

73. bored.

Anne Liebowitz is getting stale.

Correction: has been stale for a few years.

[blondie58]

75. I don't see anything racist- I just see a couple of beautiful people

[Lorien]

82. I saw that on the news stand just the other day. Thought it was kinda

weird for Vogue; "high fashion meets Sports Illustrated", and not in the usual way. If they were trying to sell the "fitness" angle I think I would have shot them both (barely) clothed, but as it stands it's just plain weird. Why is she so happy when he seems ready to pound somebody into the ground?

[otherlander]

85. Bored.

Another muscle guy.
Another supposedly hot lady.
Another shallow magazine selling crap.
Another instance of people caring more about some stupid symbolism than about their very real fellow humans.