Yes, *Our* Fundamentalists Have A Lot Of Influence

[ihavenobias]

Note: This obviously does NOT apply to the majority of people in the US as most people aren't what I would consider to be fundamentalists. I was moved to write this because I read a post that suggested we can't really complain in the US because our fundamentalists aren't nearly as bad as Muslim fundamentalists (who stone people to death, etc.) and that US fundamentalists simply don't have that much influence.

I disagree. I think our extremists still have FAR too much influence...

--How many people have repressed sexual feelings, that often end up being acted out in questionable if not horrible ways (molestation, etc.) because of *our* fundamentalists?

--How many gay people live in (unnecessary) fear, shame and guilt and or lie to themselves and others because of *our* fundamentalists?

--How much has potentially life saving, suffering-reducing stem cell research been delayed because of *our* fundamentalists?

--How many women felt pressured (directly and indirectly) to have children they weren't prepared for because they were told contraception and abortion were always wrong and that only sluts and sinners have sex before marriage because of *our* fundamentalists?

--How many hundreds of millions of dollars have been wasted on ineffective abstinence only education because of *our* fundamentalists?

PS---Sure, no one is being stoned to death, but it wasn't *that* long ago that *our* fundamentalists were burning people at the stake, right? Cultural, economic and educational advances have made our fundamentalists less violent overall, but don't let that trick you into a false sense that they have little influence.

If nothing else, consider the insane amount of time we've wasted arguing over what should be personal, non-political issues (aka, wedge issues) instead of debating more substantive issues that effect EVERYONE, like education, health care and the economy!

[FiveGoodMen]

1. And our fundies have been held back by the 1st Amendment -- which they're trying to destroy.

[ihavenobias]

2. I'd be interested to hear you elaborate on that n/t

[FiveGoodMen]

3. The Establishment Clause prohibits writing their beliefs into law

Just as one quick example of them trying to overturn that, Huckabee said -- publicly, on the campaign trail -- that the Constitution should be changed to bring it into line with "God's Law." Or something mighty close to that.

Really -- you didn't know what I was talking about?

[ihavenobias]

8. Huckabee, God & The Constitution

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqZX0bOAYMU

I was aware yes, but I wanted you to elaborate because I wasn't sure exactly what you were referring to!

[TCJ70]

18. Huckleberry is crazy...

...and the fact that he hasn't won a single primary since the first one (before most of his craziness was brought to light) should say a lot about how many supporters he actually has.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

4. How many addicts and harmless drug users have been thrown in prison

because of our fundies?

You're very right, it is fucked up.

[OzarkDem]

5. As someone commented recently

England sent her religious extremists to the US and her criminals to Australia.

Made a big difference here.

[iamthebandfanman]

7. lol

ive always loved that saying ;)

[iamthebandfanman]

6. yeah ,

people forget about our religious fundamentalism.

church burnings, people hurting people for their sexuality, and of course abortion clinics being bombed....doctors being threatened with death...etc

[Donald Ian Rankin]

9. True, but one-for-one Islamic fundamentalism is far worse.

It's perfectly true that Christian fundamentalists are a far greater threat to the quality of life of Americans than Islamic fundamentalists are.

But it's also true that Islamic fundamentalists do far more harm to the quality of life in the Islamic world than Christian fundamentalists do.

On a one-for-one basis, I think it's undeniable that Islam is not just worse but greatly worse than Christianity*. But there is very little Islam and a great deal of Christianity in America, and it's the latter that leads the charge against abortion, gay rights, sex education, teaching of the theory of evolution, and so on.


*This is, of course, an entirely meaningless statement, and many of the possible meanings that could be attached to it are both untrue and bigotted - it's obviously not true, for example, that all Muslims are worse than all Christians. The sense I mean it in is something like "averaged over the interpretations of all believers, Islam is much worse than Christianity", or something close to that.

[ihavenobias]

10. But that begs the question

Is that Inherent to the religion of Islam *or* is it simply illustrating how severe and extreme just about ANY fundamentalism can be within the right, socioeconomic/cultural context?

I go with the latter. Because again, I ask you to recall how it was *relatively* recently that Christian fundamentalists were burning people at the stake *in the US* (not to mention the many horrors of things further back in history). Modernization and education go a long, long way toward muting the effects of extremists overall.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

20. I don't see how it can not be inherent.

I do not think that there is a platonic form of Islam from which the different variants practiced today are deviations.

Islam *is* the religion practiced as Islam; all parts of that practice are inherent to it.

If you mean "are the greater problems with Islamic fundamentalism than with religious fanaticism of different stripes a consequence of the differences between Islamic teachings and the teachings of other religions, or is it coincidental" then I would say largely the former.

If you mean "are the greater problems with Islamic fundamentalism than with religious fanaticism of different stripes a consequence of the differences between Mohammed's teachings as recorded in the Qu'ran and the holy books of other religions, or is it coincidental" then the answer is less clear, but there is still an element of the former.

If you strand two random groups of people on islands and give one lot Bibles and the other lot Qu'rans, I think the latter are likely to build a society which is more rife with mysogyny, homophobia, capital & corporal punishment and the like than the former, but not to nearly the extent present in the average difference between modern Islamics and modern Christian societies.

The difference will be far more marked if you also give them modern Christian vs modern Islamic interpretations of those scriptures, though.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

34. I agree but would clarify..

"Is that Inherent to the religion of Islam *or* is it simply illustrating how severe and extreme just about ANY fundamentalism can be within the right, socioeconomic/cultural context?"

1) Its not just religious fundamentalism but also philosophical that can lead to these dangers

2) The personally held fundamentalism is not the dangerous kind (be it religious, social, ...) its the people who hold the vire that (a) They are completely right *and* (b) They should be allowed to act in force to make you agree with them..

[hootinholler]

15. It's not clear which is worse...

The christian fundie movement's damage worldwide is much more subtle and nuanced, but the damage to humanity is greater IMHO.

Without considering the societal pressures here, I'm thinking about tying foreign aid to dismantling family planning and the anti-condom promotion in Africa.

-Hoot

[The Stranger]

16. Absolutely false.

Due to the fact that they wield more raw and incredible power -- through their political party, their political incredible machinery, their zealous followers, their Left Behind bestsellers, their political and social think tanks, their magachurches, their universities, their money, and their President -- than any religious group in the history of the world.

Worse, based on their innate bellicose desire to wage war based on biblical prophecy, Christian Fundamentalists are a far, far greater threat to the quality of life than Islamic fundamentalists. And, granted, although Muslim (and Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist and other Fundamentalists) also share many of the same horrible traits and belief systems, they lack the raw and awesome power that Christian Dominionists and Fundamentalists hold.

Christian Fundamentalists are pushing for a "war of civilizations" and are already partially responsible for the death of one million innocent Iraqis, and that number grows by the day. Night after night on their sattelite networks, they pray for and promise for more war to come, as an entire generation on Earth is at risk of being a casualty religious war, many of whom are not party to the belief systems driving this.

Christian Fundamentalists creating wars around the globe is the greatest threat the world faces today.

[Enthusiast]

19. Stranger, I must agree..............

However, one advantage is the divisions within Christianity. Although Catholics are united with Christian Fundamentalists over the abortion issue there are many other issues that divide them. We can praise the lord for that, lol. I shouldn't laugh, it is a deadly serious concern. If these creeps had complete control, the American citizen would be open to any and every abuse. And like you say, the biblical prophecy, the end times, they are trying to bring to fuition. Just check this out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjMRgT5o-Ig

[Donald Ian Rankin]

21. I'm afraid I think you're lacking in perspective.

To attach all the blame for the deaths in Iraq to Christian fundamentalists and none to Islamic fundamentalists, despite the fact that it's the latter who have committed nearly all the killings, strikes me as misguided.

One of the major faults of the American actions in Iraq is that it has provided an opportunity for Islamic fundamentalism.

You may hold the Christians partially complicit in the actions of the Muslims, but to hold them more so than the Muslims, or to suggest that the crimes they've committed themselves are of comparable magnitude, is absurd.

Remember, the vast majority of the violence in Iraq is not aimed at the Americans, it's Iraqi factions trying to terrorise one another.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. Blah blah blah blah.

"To attach all the blame for the deaths in Iraq to Christian fundamentalists and none to Islamic fundamentalists, despite the fact that it's the latter who have committed nearly all the killings, strikes me as misguided."

They weren't killing each other until our christian fundamentalists started bombing the shit out of them. To blame the Iraq war on the Iraqis is some seriously fucked-up bullshit.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

29. They weren't killing each other because Saddam Hussein made it impossible

The really "fucked-up bullshit" is to try and absolve the people committing the violence of all blame for it.

"The Iraqis", incidentally, is a slightly misleading phrase. I am blaming "Iraqis", by which I mean "some Iraqis" - specifically those participating in and encouraging the violence - rather than "all Iraqis", "the Iraqi people" or similar. Nor am I denying that much blame must also be attached to America.

It's also worth noting that by no means all the Muslims participating in, supporting and encouraging violence in Iraq are Iraqis (although most are).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. You're a real piece of work.

Yeesh.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

32. I note that you have failed to point at anything I have said as being untrue.

"A real piece of work" is not the same thing as "wrong".

It's a very comforting, very liberal position, to absolve everyone except rich westerners of all blame for their actions. It's not, however, one that can be justified sensibly.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. The business about foreign fighters in Iraq is nonsense.

If you want me to debunk your statements as well as your sick opinions.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

39. Oh really?

The importance of e.g. Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi may well have been overstated (it may not have been), but denying his very existance, as you're doing, is just silly.

It's certainly the case that the vast majority of those actually fighting & killing are Iraqi, but it's also the case that a) not all are, and b) while those involved in supporting and encouraging the violence are also nearly all Iraqi, the minority who aren't isn't as small or as insignificant as it is among the actuall killers.

[The Stranger]

40. The reason why Iraqis are dying is because their nation was invaded and its institutions destroyed -

- by a Fundamentalist Christian president and his Fundamentalist Christian Base. So the root cause of the violence was the massive assault and the extraordinary violence waged on the nation from without (remember "shock and awe") as well as the undermining of all law and order there in place. The implementation and use of torture it appears was brought into Iraq by what is becoming more and more a Fundamentalist armed forces. That is why Iraqis were, inexplicably, bombing Abu Ghraib and trying to kill the Iraqi prisoners held inside before it was revealed the torture chambers and killing rooms at work inside the facility.

Second, much (if not most) of the violence in Iraq is between people of different ethnicities, as the Kurds, for example, were an ethnic minority, not a religious one. You raise the example of Yugoslavia, which was torn apart by various ethnicities with religion following largely ethnic lines. But even that wasn't Fundamentalist Islam; in fact, it wasn't even just Islam, but involved Catholics, non-Catholic Christians, Muslims, and possibly others.

Third, this also leads us to the fact that not all of the religious violence is based on Islamic Fundamentalism, which you seem to assume is the case. Just because violence occurs and it involves Muslims does not make it "terrorism" or rooted in Islamic Fundamentalism. In fact, as you concede, some of those involved are not even Muslims, much less Muslim Fundamentalists. Another poster pointed out that true Muslim Fundamentalists, such as the Al Quaeda foreign fighters seen prominently in the corporate media, could hardly be responsible for the violence churning in Iraq.

And, even aside from Iraq, and its ongoing war initiated wholly without just cause by a Christian Fundamentalist President backed by his Christian Fundamentalist Base, there remains with this President in power and his numerous backers infesting the Executive and Judicial Branches, an ongoing extraordinary threat to the peace of the world, as so much power is concentrated in a group of people that are patently irrational and believing in eschatological violent wars to end the world.

And all of this is without going into the social and economic costs to other domestic religious minorities, gays, lesbians and transgendered, abortion rights groups, and others who find themselves the target of U.S. Christian Fundamentalists who wield extraordinary economic and political power. As Christian Fundamentalism strides hand-in-hand with the same empowered groups, it provides a subtle cover for an extraordinary range of bigotry, even at times revealing itself as White Supremacy, as Muslims are viewed as devils, Jews seen as the target of conversion, and the Environment as being something expendable, given the supposed imminent return of a Fundamentalist Christian Savior, who, in turn, justifies the very unleashing of violence.

[Enthusiast]

43. Dude!

Stranger, what an excellent post! This pretty much explains my position better than I could. It could be suggested that excesses of the past seven years are a direct result of this President's belief system, a system that tells him he is right and that he is fulfilling biblical prophecy.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

36. Well

"They weren't killing each other until our christian fundamentalists started bombing the shit out of them. To blame the Iraq war on the Iraqis is some seriously fucked-up bullshit."

And the Serbs and Kosovars were not killing each other when they were under the soviet thumb as Yugoslavia... The fact there was a brutal dictator there masked the violence and hate but did not eliminate it if we had avoided Iraq when Hussain died either his sons would have had to be just as brutal or the same crap would have started.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. Feh.

Yeah, and the difference is, we stopped the genocide in the former Yugoslavia and in Iraq we've caused it.

This is like the Germans blaming the Poles for gassing the Jews.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

38. Ill give you a but not b

Yes we stopped the genocide in Yugoslavia (ethnic cleansing by both sides contiunes to this day) in Iraq we've accelerated the genocide and thus bear a huge amount of blame, but are not the cause of it.

"This is like the Germans blaming the Poles for gassing the Jews."

I dont even see any way in which its like that...

[madmom]

11. Please read "God Is Not Great" by Christopher Hitchens, it talks about this exact thing in ALL

religions....quite interesting.

[Echo In Light]

12. Also from Hedges: The Christian Right and the Rise of American Fascism

http://www.democracynow.org/2007/2/19/chris_hedges_on_american_fascists_the

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/ChristianRight_AmerFascism.html

[madmom]

13. thanks for the links, but these are two different people.

[Echo In Light]

14. Whoops. And Hitchens I don't always agree with

However, saw the thread was on fundies, and caught part of the name when Hedges' books sprang to mind. My bad.

[madmom]

22. No I don't always agree with him either but this book was a gift and when I read it..

I found it quite informative and interesting.

[ihavenobias]

17. Have you seen the video clip from the 2007 Value Voters Summit w/ (R) Pres Candidates?

It's terrifying (and a little funny too, but mostly terrifying and sad): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvhn43BmdWM

[spoony]

23. Curious how people here will side with a wingnut drunk when

it suits their personal grudges.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

24. It would be a sign of stupidity *not* to do so. George Bush thinks the sky is blue.

If someone who holds other views I disgree with puts forwards a view I agree with, what do you expect me to do? Change my mind, just so as to avoid agreeing with them?

"when it suits their personal grudges" is just a loaded and perjorative way of saying "when they think they're right".

[spoony]

27. The problem, of course, is that his book is tripe.

He wrote that book the same way he writes his RW nonsense, with the same disregard for opposing viewpoints and his slovenly manner, but people eat this particular nonsense up because, and only because, he's "sticking it to" religion. You either reject sloppy writing and reasoning or you don't. Even if you agree with his conclusions, and of course you don't have to "change your mind to avoid agreeing," you can and should recognise pap as pap. For example, I am quite capable of both agreeing with someone like, say, Kirk Cameron about the nature of God (I assume I do, this is just an example, I may not) and simultaneously recognise his arguments (I think there's a banana involved at one point) as incompetent.

[madmom]

25. Curious how people here see only what they want to see in a post.. I said

I do not always agree with him and I found the book informative and interesting, how is that siding with him? How do you know what my "personal grudges" are? Are we forbidden to express an opinion on a book now for fear of offending someone?

[spoony]

28. Feeling persecuted again?

I don't think I have either the power nor interest to quash your posts. And you don't have the power to offend me. So, really, you're wrong all around.

[madmom]

35. When did I ever complain about being persecuted I expressed an opinion..

about a book. I learned somethings I did not know...informative, I like reading about different religions and their beliefs, how similar they are...interesting so what the fuck are you trying to say here?My opinion is different than your's so it's wrong how very fucking "christian" of you.I really don't care if I offend you or not, that's your problem to deal with not mine, get over it.

[Arugula Latte]

30. Good point. This is why when people say we have to just shut up and respect "Faith" in whatever form

it takes because *Heavens to Betsy!* We wouldn't want to OFFEND religious people, it makes me want to tear my hair out.

[ihavenobias]

41. One of the best things

Cenk Uygur of The Young Turks ever pointed out was how we are expected to respect the religion of people who sincerely believe that we will burn in the fiery pits of hell for eternity simply because we disagree with them.

That's one hell of a starting ground if you're asking for respect, eh? (pun intended)

[CherylK]

42. I never thought of it that way before

that is a unique perspective.