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Is the "War on Terror" actually a war?

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Brian Fearn Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 12:44 PM
Original message
Is the "War on Terror" actually a war?
Is there such a thing as a war that is neither an international conflict nor a civil war?

Bush administration supporters argue that such a war can exist, that we are in such a war, and that "combatants" captured in such a war are not protected by the Geneva Conventions of 1949, because the types of conflicts specified by those conventions are not the same kind of conflict as the one we are in now.

In the past terrorism was handled as a type of international criminal activity, and terrorists treated according to criminal law, not as enemy combatants in a "war." Is there any justification for the change in modus operandi initiated by the Bush administration?

Basically, the Bush administration wants to have all the powers of war with none of the traditional limitations -- no limits on what constitutes the "theater of war" or legitimate targets or conditions of imprisonment that apply to POWs. They say we are "at war" with terror, but somehow the rules regarding "prisoners of war" fail to apply to what they call "enemy combatants."

Scary stuff.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. It is a clash of ideas.. It cannot be won militarily.. . . . n/t
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Bingo! (NT)
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. the WOT is a scam and an advertising jingle branding permanent war profits...
...for the military industrial complex, which the media have joined. Nothing more.
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Clovis Sangrail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. true... but GWOT is a cool acronym
Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 12:53 PM by Clovis Sangrail
reminds me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwar">GWAR ... beyond that it's a total scam.
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Brian Fearn Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Permanent / self-perpetuating war
That is another thing to consider: it seems to me that the so-called "war on terror" may have created at least as many terrorists as it has destroyed.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. No
Iraq is an occupation, Afghanistan is bushco flexing their muscles, showing their might, letting it all hang out but war, NO
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. its a siphon to send taxpayers money to ReThug business to be laundered into the ReThug party, why d...
think HLS MONEY WAS GIVEN TO BAKERY'S IN OUTBACK NORTH DAKOTA AND PETTING ZOOS.. so they could launder it back thru republican senators wives charities to the party.. duh.!
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Brian Fearn Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Wars have often had unsavory motivations
I guess I was interested more in the legal and definitional side of things. A war may be waged for evil motives and still be a war.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Still no, still total bullshit.
A war is a military conflict between nations. A civil war is a military conflict between competing governments within a nation. GWOT is made up bullshit. The closest one can get to historical legitimacy was our war against the Barbary Prates way back in the very early 1800s. Even then there was a specific enemy (the Barbary Pirates) who were organized into a loose federation that operated out of a specific area. A war should have specific objectives (the conflict which the war is intended to settle.) For example, our wars against the Barbary Pirates were intended to end the demand from the Pirates for payment of tribute in order to guarantee safe passage through the mediterranean.

Had Congress declared war against Afghanistan and Al Qaeda, we would have been in a legitimate war. Congress did not do that. Instead we have GWOT, which has no specific organized enemies, no specific territory that these enemies operate from, and no specific objectives. That is the point, the reason why the Cabal invented GWOT: it has no specific enemy, no defined territory that this amorphous enemy operates from, no specific objective other than the elimination of this amorphous enemy. GWOT, as we have seen, allows the Cabal to justify just about any action they decide to take, as part of the infinitely adaptble rational of GWOT.

GWOT = total bullshit.
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Brian Fearn Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Yes
"GWOT, as we have seen, allows the Cabal to justify just about any action they decide to take, as part of the infinitely adaptble rational of GWOT."

This is my problem with it as well. It's far too nebulous to qualify as a "war" in my book. It has no specified theater, no well-defined objectives, no real measures of success. "War" in this case is just a metaphor and an acknowledgment of the fact that military action is being taken.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. War is such a variable
Rival gangs can have a "war". War is whatever the person naming it wants it to be. An actual "war" though where two nation states enter into combat it is not...
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. GWOT == BULLSHIT nt.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
12. Carl von Clausewitz wrote...
Carl von Clausewitz wrote that the only purpose of war is to deny the opposition the ability to wage war through the use of military force. If that is indeed the case, we can't call this a war at all as there's no possible way to militarily achieve the goal of eliminating terrorism.

...but on the other hand, I'd never underestimate Bush's incompetence-- he may actually be under the impression that if he continues throwing more and more corpses at the problem, then some type of victory could be squeezed out of this attrition of morale.

Terrorism cannot be eradicated through military means; only through the elimination of poverty can this conflict be considered "won" in any conventional sense. And that will come only via a worldwide effort of fair distribution of food, housing, medicine and clothing.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. 9/11 was a crime, NOT an act of war, and should have been treated as such.
and "the war on terror" is nothing more than the current catchphrase in the marketing campaign for u.s. imperialism.
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Brian Fearn Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I agree with you
What the Bush admin wants to say, I think, is that the scale of 9/11 was such that it should be treated as an act of war rather than merely a crime. But then they face the problem that there is no well-defined body of people against whom they can declare war...
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. it wasn't a problem for them...
they were looking for a reason to attack iraq.
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Brian Fearn Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Legal problems are only problems for people who respect the law
So, yeah.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
15. No more than the war on drugs is a war.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
19. No. There is no such thing as the 'war on terror'.
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I work for workers Donating Member (551 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-05-07 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
20. Yes, and we are well on our way to losing it.
With the rise of easy and profitable infrastructure terrorism, the developed world is destined to see a dramatic decline in providable services and as a result, governmental legitimacy. The nations of the global north are faced with a choice to spend billions to (unsuccessfully) defend themselves or capitulate to an enemy motivated by the holy desire to see them destroyed. Either choice has the same the likely result; a splintering of society and a rise of extremist views. Couple that with an Eastern hemisphere demographic crisis that will see Muslims dominate Europe and Russia and systems there that are unable to integrate them into society. When this reaches its peak, society will simply shift to accommodate them.

The US will last longer, as it has a smaller Muslim population and is far better at preserving societal cohesion during times of heavy immigration, but no man (or state) is an island, and this can only last so long in a world of faith. We are already a religious people, and a large segment of the population is already turning towards more radical versions of their beliefs. As the power shuts down and price of fuel skyrockets, we should only expect this trend to hasten. Don't believe me? Just watch the news. Todays Iraq is playing out as a model of our bleak future.

Just as the British once were, now it is our turn to play the ponderous ineffectual giant incapable of dealing with a growing threat that doesn't play by our cherished rules.

A cheap and easily prepared terrorist attack or act of sabotage can cost the world economy hundreds of millions of dollars. Couple hundreds of these together, and tens or hundreds of billions of dollars are lost. We feel safe because we have successfully stopped several 9/11 style attacks. It is the height of false confidence. The US will likely continue to thwart big spectacular attacks against our homeland, but these attacks not the greatest concern we face. Our way of life depends on the stability of a hundred nations around the world, the vast majority of which do not have the ability we do to safeguard against terror and sabotage. 9/11 type terror is going the way of the dinosaur. It's too expensive, requires too much effort, and produces too much backlash. The terror of the future is infrastructure terror, small attacks against the machinery that makes modern life function. When infrastructure crumbles, governments crumble along with it.

When a government loses legitimacy, one of two things happens. Either another government rises to take its place, or society fractures along ethnic or religious boundaries. Terrorist groups lack the ability to replace the state, and the state lacks the ability to stop terror, so the first option is highly unlikely in the long term. The second is almost guaranteed. From there it is a short jump to a world of God, or as the demographics would argue, Allah. People will group into suspicious and hostile conclaves that embrace extremist views, the vast majority of which will be faith based. Even those with the potential to realize the truth of western ideals will not have the chance to do so, as both the standard of living and societal tolerance for free thought will have plummeted to the point where such notions will be crushed out.

The US made it's gamble and banked on Iraqi democracy turning the tide of extremism. It didn't work. If anything, Iraq has proved just how easy it is to destroy governmental legitimacy by keeping people's lights off. It will be decades before America is ready for another round of military adventurism. By the time we realize what has happened to the world, it will be too late to do anything about it.
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