Evolution opponents in Florida rising up against what they call "indoctrination."

[madfloridian]

This is one of the worst comments I have heard, and I have read and heard many lately during this period leading up to the final decision.

To teach evolution as a scientific fact is not education, but indoctrination every bit as insidious as the rewriting of history by dictatorial regimes.

Not long ago the Florida Department of Education declared they were including evolution to be taught in science classes, and they said intelligent design and creationism would not be taught along side it.

I think people who are in favor of this are going to have to be more vocal. The noisy ones are the ones who are supposedly in the minority on this issue. Here are some letters this week:

Evolution: Theory ignores fact

Published: Sunday, November 18, 2007

Theory Ignores Fact

Before a decision as to whether or not evolution should be taught in Florida schools it is imperative that the proponents define precisely what the "Theory of Evolution" is. A recent editorial from a graduate student at USF indicates there is a great deal of ignorance on the subject. The theory of evolution that claims all life forms evolved by time and chance is not a scientific fact. Scientific theories must either be observable or repeatable. Micro-evolution is an indisputable fact since it can be observed; as for example in the case of dogs where there are countless breeds, but a dog is still a dog.

Despite millions and millions of fossils that have been unearthed and studied there has yet to be one that was an intermediate form between species when there should have been thousands of examples. Every time an intermediate example has been brought forward it has later turned out to be a hoax. (So much for believing someone just because he has a science degree.)

Therefore, since the theory is not observable and not scientifically testable it must remain a theory and requires belief in its truth as much as belief in God and creation. Ordinarily, theories that defy established scientific laws (like the second law of thermodynamics) or are shown to be mathematically impossible are thrown out, but this has not been the case with evolution. Its adherents totally ignore any scientific evidence that conflicts with their beliefs.

Education should only teach factual information or evidence on both sides of debatable issues and how to discern the truth between disparate beliefs. To teach evolution as a scientific fact is not education, but indoctrination every bit as insidious as the rewriting of history by dictatorial regimes.

Eeeek...you may need to read that at least twice to get the full impact.

Another letter:


Common Sense in Evolution

I am not a scientist - just your average citizen with a question about the validity of evolution. Since I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I would appreciate someone explaining to me how life could spontaneously spring from non-living matter (or even explain to me where matter itself came from).

Having answered the above question, I would then be interested in hearing a believable scientific explanation of how this one living organism progressed from asexual to sexual reproduction. Where and how was the geographical area or did asexual reproducing organisms develop legs before they developed sexual organs? Or did sexual organs stimulate the evolutionary development of legs? Finally, how did the human ability to reason evolve?

It appears (to this average inquiring mind) that in order to believe in evolution the first requirement is to suspend one's innate human ability to reason. Pardon my ignorance, but this seems like "devolution" to me.

Please forgive me, but I am not yet so highly evolved that I am ready to swallow as scientific fact something that does not even pass the test of common sense. Perhaps in a few more years I will have devolved to the point of believing a theory that has been so obviously cut from whole-cloth.

An Orlando school is not going to accept readily the teaching of evolution in their high school.

Orlando School Debates Including "Intelligent Design" in Class

ORLANDO, FL (AP) -- Some parents and teachers at an Orlando school are asking officials to include the controversial concept of "intelligent design" in the classroom.

Jones High School officials held a public meeting last night to discuss proposed revisions to state science standards. Several speakers called for including intelligent design, which explains the origins of life on earth as derived from an "intelligent cause" rather than through natural selection and evolution. Teacher and parent Veronica Bryant said a lack of fossil evidence supports evolution, and the complexity of life defies it.

Parents and educators elsewhere in Florida have also contacted the state Board of Education about teaching intelligent design since the state made the proposed standards public last month. Critics call intelligent design a thinly veiled religious theory.

Previous letters to the editor have said this teaching will lead to more "godless" beliefs and people.

Florida's plan to require evolution be taught in science class is being called "godless".

The downward spiral humanity is on is pathetically evolutionary, and is producing generations of godless adults.

It's certainly not true science. It is a lot of confusion along with
imagination and a wishful doctrine from confused people who cannot accept creationism.

I trust we have more competent leaders who will stop this nonsense being perpetrated on our students.

I honestly believe that the teaching in churches shown in Alexandra Pelosi's video Road Trip Friends of God has been going on in too many places in Florida.

The Florida Department of Education may well find their efforts thwarted by a very vocal minority. I would hate to see them back down.

[frogmarch]

1. My eyes are bleeding

That's awful. I too hope the FDE doesn't back down.

I'm going to try (yes, try) to watch the "Road Trip Friends of God" video now.

(Spelling edit)

[madfloridian]

5. That is only a part of the hour long video. It is terribly scary.

HBO needs to do a replay of the whole thing.

[frogmarch]

9. They're destroying those children's brains!

Ignorant assholes.

50 million American's don't believe in evolution? That's a lot of people. Really stupid people.

[uberllama42]

28. More like 150 million

Last night I read a Newsweek poll saying that 48% of respondents are young-earth creationists. Old-earth creationists represent yet another chunk of our population. Usually polls show that around 15% Americans accept evolution as science describes it.

[YOY]

43. I don't buy that

Not in the least. 48% my ass.

[uberllama42]

48. Why not?

Here's a CBS poll:
55% said humans were created by God in their present form. 37% said God guided the process of evolution.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml

Here's a Gallup poll:
44% said God created humans in their present state less than 10k years ago. 39% said God guided the process of evolution over a long period of time.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm

Another Gallup poll:
39% said God definitely created man in the last 10,000 years, 27% said that God likely did the same.
http://www.pollingreport.com/science.htm

These poll numbers are consistent. Why do you think the polls are wrong time and time again?

[YOY]

55. Because they aren't. 50% is not viable.

Those polls were either worded oddly or the incorrect information was extrapolated from them. Otherwise that creationist BS would already be in the classrooms everywhere and not just Kansas and Rural Ohio.

Catholics (with a small number of amazingly stupid exceptions), Jews (with a few exceptions), and Orthadox Christians (with a few exceptions) believe in evolution. So do most mainstream Protestants who don't do literal interpretations of the bible. Atheists, agnostics, unitarians...gonna tell me any of them buy that BS? Buddhists? Hindus? Seriosly, that poll is wrong. I will argue with the numbers until someone tells me how they gleaned them.

I refuse to believe that this country is 40%-50% evangelist/born-again/fundie baptist. That's just stupid.

[muriel_volestrangler]

58. It's believable. Given the overall higher religious belief in the US

than most other developed countries, it's not surprising to find non-evolutionary beliefs higher in the US too. There's still quite a lot in other countries, too.

The researchers combined data from public surveys on evolution collected from 32 European countries, the United States and Japan between 1985 and 2005. Adults in each country were asked whether they thought the statement “Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals,” was true, false, or if they were unsure.

The study found that over the past 20 years:

* The percentage of U.S. adults who accept evolution declined from 45 to 40 percent.
* The percentage overtly rejecting evolution declined from 48 to 39 percent, however.
* And the percentage of adults who were unsure increased, from 7 to 21 percent.



http://www.livescience.com/health/060810_evo_rank.html

See also:
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2006/ZZ/612_public_acceptance_of_evolutio_8_15_2006.asp

[Dudley_DUright]

61. Salon had a good article about science eduction in Turkey

awhile back (the country with which we are fighting for last place). You can find it at:

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/08/13/taner_edis/index.html

[Blue Fire]

78. Well, so much for being the most scientifically advanced country!

I don't know whether to pity those ignorant, superstitious creationists, or blame them for the price of gas for using up all dinosaur juice in their fucking Escalades!

[PVnRT]

91. Suck it, Turkey!

/that graph is sad

[uberllama42]

69. I'd like to believe that those numbers are really high

but since there are now five polls on this thread supporting numbers above 40% and there are no polls that I know of supporting your point, I have no choice but to accept that about half of Americans reject the scientific evidence and believe that God created the world in its current state less than 10,000 years ago.

Most of the people I know and associate with on a daily basis understand that evolution is a scientific fact, but they are educated Catholics and atheists. I imagine (not having entered into a discussion with any of them) that the less educated Christians and Muslims in this city (Philadelphia) are much more heavily creationist. My impression of the Bible Belt is that people there are overwhelmingly Young Earth types.

Also, why would Hindus be apt to accept evolution? I agree that they would not be likely to say that the world is less than 10,000 years old, but I can't remember reading about natural selection in the Vedas.

[YOY]

71. I have no idea where the average Hindu stands. Never read the Vedas/Upanishads

Once again it goes back to how much of a fundamentalist the person is. I'd be hard pressed to believe that most (if not nearly all) Hindus think the world was created from Lord Ganesh's dream or something along those lines...time to use Wikipedea and check it out.

I'm still thinking how they asked the questions and filled those numbers in to be possibly unreliable.

My wife finds flaws with evolution but she is hardly a creationist.

[mmonk]

2. We're not a very modern country despite our weapons technology.

But that has been made more obvious to those in the reality based community since 2000.

[madfloridian]

3. We are going backwards.

Since 2001 we have devolved, I fear.

[cloudbase]

4. Florida has a Department of Evolution?

Whoda thunk?

[madfloridian]

7. Ha Ha I caught that and fixed it.

I did not see it at first.

[ladjf]

6. What can you say in the face of such profound ignorance?

It's hopeless. I feel sympathy for their children.

[NutmegYankee]

8. Ok, just ask these creationists why they support teaching terrorist Dogma?

Seriously. Want some head exploding fun? Makes the case that Islamic terrorism believes in Creationism and a young earth, and state bluntly that these people want to teach our children what Osama teaches his. I can picture the flustered look already.

[symbolman]

51. Buhuwaahaahaaha!

most excellent! I know I'll be passing that along and watching those heads explode with glee :)

This is what I call creating a "Rovian" moment, where they've lost already, and only dig themselves in Deeper, looking dumber all the time..

Like my "Army of One" flash work I created on Takebackthemedia.com

Bravo, really, I dig it :)

[StClone]

10. their Ignorance is appalling

There is no way in hell that a decent education system in Florida would allow the stigma of ignorance in basic Evolution. Florida has questionable public schools, private schools are another story -- meticulously if not Conservative. I keep hoping for the best while thinking if we can't have them accept basic Science will this country survive let alone compete with the likes of the Chinese whose Physics students outscore our top kids by double digits.

[spag68]

11. I can't get past

the fact that these people want me to believe in a 6000 year old earth, while telling me that there is no evidence of evolution. P.S. I have a 3 million year old chambered nautilus fossil in my rock garden, wonder where it came from.

[Occulus]

13. They'll cheerfully respond that, in effect, their god is a fucking liar.

Seriously. Those fossils are there to "test your faith".

In other words, if that is in fact true (:rofl:), the christian god is a motherfucking liar.

NOW-

In their theology, such as it is, there is one truthy guy and one not-so-truthy guy.

They'll tell you that their satan can quote scripture when it suits his purposes.

Me, I wonder if it wasn't their satan that wrote their bible.

All spellings are correct.

[unpossibles]

29. yeah, I have never understood that

how they can somehow overlook their own lack of evidence and common sense, yet project those faults onto scientific studies which have been rigorously tested. Evolution doesn't meet their criteria for common sense, yet forming a woman from part of a guy who was made out of clay does make sense?

The worst part is I almost feel sorry for many of the grassrubes people who have been lied to repeatedly by their church, and then go and repeat those lies in public. It's as bad as how Rush Limbaugh listeners think that everyone else is a victim of propaganda.

[Tesha]

32. God created it 30 seconds ago when he made this world.

Well, now that you've spent ten seconds reading
this post, make that "forty seconds ago".

Tesha

[The Wizard]

44. It all started

when the flying saucers landed in Missouri and Jesus told the landing party to wear magic underwear to be protected from Satan as rubbers were yet to be invented. And everyone knows Satan invented rubbers.

[Tesha]

88. Rubbers? Why? Are there puddles in Hell? Ohhhhhh.... "Nevermind!" (NT)

[gollygee]

73. The fossil was put there to test you!

Be strong! Hold out for what's right!










(hehehe :D )

[pscot]

12. And the winner is #2

"If I'm too stupid to understand it, it can't be true." When Florida sinks beneath the waves as a result of global warming, the race will become measurably more intelligent.

[RainDog]

14. You've got to watch this PBS vid

this week they covered the "intelligent design" issue in Dover, PA. You can watch it online here.

The scientists make me proud. The ID folks are merely promoting a religious agenda because they are too fucking stupid to understand the way the world works...or want to lie to themselves and the rest of us because they don't like the truth.

one of the biggest lies of the ID people is that they have NO IDEA what a "theory" means in science. Ask them if they believe in the theory of gravity? It has as much foundation as evolution. Ask them if they believe that virii can be treated with medicines. If they do, tell them to thank evolution.

anyway, the precedent has already been set via the Dover case. The DoE should refer the complainers to it, and the pbs video. In fact, the Dover case was able to prove that THE ORIGINAL DOCS that created the ID name to cover the creationist agenda were creationist first - they just changed the name. So ID is creationism.

Americans are so fucking stupid they make me want to spit.

[Lasher]

18. I watched that. Best documentary I have seen in years.

As I watched it I was struck by the realization that this level of objectivity was much more common a decade ago.

Here's another PBS/NOVA page that leads to video clips and other tools regarding the program.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/

[Dudley_DUright]

26. You can watch the whole show online

See:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html

I watched most of the broadcast show, but missed a few parts which I later watched online. Should be required view for all FL school boards who are talking about requiring "equal time" for ID. God save us from the IDiots.

[Lasher]

39. Thanks Dudley

Upthread RainDog furnished that link too. I stumbled across the show the first time it was broadcast and was glued to the set, so I didn't miss a minute. Might watch it online anyway.

Notice that two of the young earth creationists' standard claims in the OP (no fossil evidence of bridge species and irreducible complexity) were soundly refuted in the documentary.

[BlueEyedSon]

64. Sorta gives one hope about this country

[NoFederales]

41. Great documentary, and shows both sides for what they are--no

weaseling and hem-hawing (Although, I confess to having had great trepidation about the outcome during the show.)

I think this topic is the greatest anathema ever, even more so than my hatred of political bloodsport. Rational thought is endangered, beleaguered, and disputed with lies, innuendos, and the smug beliefs by so many that "belief/faith" trumps all. I no longer tolerate these attitudes and attacks with being silent and accepting because it is too stupid beyond belief to ignore--mute acceptance becomes tacit approval.

Outliving the idiots is my goal, that, and flagging their works as false.

NoFederales

[AllieB]

56. One of the best docs from Nova in a while

The ID people really looked like idiots. Yes, they didn't know the difference between theory and hypothesis. Don't we generally learn this in grammar school science?

One of the things that was played down was they said that Kitzmiller got 'hate mail', when in reality she got enough 'death threats' to get the FBI involved.

[madfloridian]

60. Thanks, will watch it.

If you did not see the video clip in the OP, be sure to watch it...about 5 minutes.

Thanks for the PBS link.

[ptolle]

62. school boards etc.

As usual Mark Twain probably had it right:
In the first place, God made idiots. That was for practice. Then he made school boards.
I keep wondering how many school districts are going to be driven into insolvency fighting stuff like this, because you know there's always going to be some enlightened individual, worried about their child's education, going to challenge this sort of thing and judging by the Dover decision the anti-evolutionist IDiots don't have much of a leg to stand on against real science.

[BlueEyedSon]

63. and how many of the ID "expert witnesses" ducked out ...4 out of 7??

[RainDog]

74. and the textbook buying was rigged

the board member who brought this up bought the "ID" texts with money from his dad, although the preacher did try to hit up his congregation, in so many words.

It seems to me the Dover decision should make any more of these trials nothing more than nuisance suits and those who file them should be sentenced to biology night school to learn those punnet squares and those gatc acids combining and recombining.

The "real" world is full of wonder and amazement. Who cannot stand in awe of the beauty of the solar system, or the ways in which flowers and bees interact, or understand the humanity that comes from recognizing our common bonds with all the earth and every other bit of every other thing that exists?

[Jade Fox]

81. Fantastic!

definitely one of the best docs I've seen in awhile. And such a gratifying smack down.

Who made me proud were those parents and teachers.

[NoodleyAppendage]

15. Ah...to hell with 'em. Let the dumbasses home school themselves into economic oblivion.

These christofascist dumbasses are a perfect lab sample for how modern economic social pressures will result in their way being maladaptive (and hopefully selected out of existence). Good riddance...enough with the bible thumpers.

J

[Didereaux]

20. Actually, that may be the most viable and practical solution! n/t

[Nihil]

25. There's one big snag with that approach ...

> Let the dumbasses home school themselves into economic oblivion

When their ignorance delivers them to their well-deserved economic oblivion,
who is there with open arms (and a form awaiting their mark)? The US Army.

Combine that with the warmongers in charge (and in the wings) and you'll
find that it's actually the intelligent section of the population that is
in more danger - the danger of being swamped by brain-dead bullies who
blindly follow their orders ("handed down by G_d" of course!).

:shrug:

[KingOfLostSouls]

16. the faith based

love science when they can turn on the computer, log on the internet, and complain about "heathens."

they don't like science when it blows up their lil world full of delusions.

I'm still waiting for one of the faith based to explain to me how faith based computers work, do they just pray for them to turn on or what?

[Disturbed]

17. "50 million American's don't believe in evolution?"

I bet at least 50 Million have not read "The Origin of the Species". All they are protesting is that homo sapians did not evolve from monkeys. They fear that if they believed that then it would render their God as being a monkey. Their Bible it says that man was created in the image of the Creator from dust & that a woman was created from the first man's rib. They will believe that no matter what evidence disputes it.

[KingOfLostSouls]

22. no kidding

I think that recent hoax about the global warming thing and ocean bacteria really summed up conservatives. they're willing to believe anything, ANYTHING, if it suits their agenda. they could ignore facts galore but as soon as something they agree with pops up, no matter how stupid it is, they go, AHA!!! WE GOT THE LIBERALS!!!

if the Spice Girls said it was cool to be a creationist, chuck norris and pat robertson would be lining up to get fake tits.

[unpossibles]

30. sadly, I had a winger tell me that the hoax

was just another example of why you can't believe in science or trust the media because it lies to us.

wow.

[Lasher]

19. Welcome to the new Dark Ages

Stem cell research is murder. Terri Schiavo is alive. Dinosaurs pulled the pharaohs' chariots. The earth is flat. :-(

[opihimoimoi]

21. Ignorance is the GREATEST KILLER of ALL TIME......

Stunning, incredulous, Appalling, and DEPRESSING

[madfloridian]

76. Not to depress you more....but look at this picture.

More about it here. A school board against evolution.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1655

[opihimoimoi]

80. Pat Robinson's ploy 15 years ago...invade/load/join School Boards, City Councils, etc

Ulterior Motives drives them to run and sometime obtain positions that require Objective Decisions...then they make SUBJECTIVE Calls that have far reaching results....

Their Line of Thought...ITS ALL ABOUT THEM.....One sided shit.....Not a good way to lead .....

[China_cat]

23. Partly our own fault for not calling them on it every time

they put forth the idea that THEORY=wild assed guess.

[D23MIURG23]

24. What the hell do these people think a "scientific fact" is?

I'm so tired of hearing "evolution is not a scientific fact". It doesn't get much better than evolution in science - evolution is a meta fact that holds our biological understanding together.

What the hell is next? Equal time for phlogiston because periodicity isn't a "scientific fact"? Equal time for Ptolemaic earth centered solar system? Equal time for astrology?

:rant:

[Alter Ego]

27. These people have no clue what a scientific theory is.

Nor do they have even a tenuous grip on reality.

[progressoid]

31. They should teach Intelligent Design is school

In a class called "Retarded ideas about how life started".

[JerseygirlCT]

33. Two words for these nuts: private schools

Let them teach their own kids whatever nonsense they wish. Or form private schools to do so on their own dime.

[The Wizard]

46. Then we won't have to

import illegal aliens to do the jobs Americans won't.
If anyone will be doing the dirty work, it will be those who fail to critically think and haven't developed the ability to question and go beyond the artificial boundaries set by dogmatic ignorance.

[NorthernSpy]

34. The concept of "zero" is a Satanic lie! Christian math NOW!

God's presence is everywhere for all eternity, and every part of creation exists in a nonzero condition at all times. "Zero" is impossible. I demand for children to be taught only the true Christian Math.

[uberllama42]

70. We need to smash all the computers now

They are based on evil wicked SINFUL binary code, interspersing the Divine NUMber 1 (representing the Unity of Father, SON, and HOly Spirit) with the Demonic lie zero!!11one!!jesus!!!

[libbygurl]

77. Don't forget - I think the concept of zero came from the Arabs, too! EOM

[Toots]

35. Is there even anything called scientific fact?

There is hypothesis, theory and law but I don't recall anywhere "scientific fact" :shrug:

[Zodiak]

36. Hair-splitting by flat-earthers

While I agree with them that evolution is not a "proven" scientific fact, it is about as close to a fact as we can get without observing other planet's bioshperes and gathering every conceivable bit of information and variables fromour own (which we haven't done).

But I know for sure that their intelligent design bullcrap is about as far from a fact as you can get. Where is the evidence?....because on the evolution side, we have hundreds of thousands of papers..and I mean HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS! The possibility that evolution is wrong is so infinitesimally small that you are more likely to hit the lottery....on a planet revolving around Beetlegeuse!!

What I love is that they hold evolution up to the highest level of scientific scrutiny (reproducability, making predictions, all observations must fit the model, etc.), but they do NOT hold the same standards to their hare-brained ideas. Talk about a double-standard!!!

[Odin2005]

37. Ugh, Christofascist moranism and Postmodernist lunacy joined hand in hand.

Pleast excuse me while I puke...

:puke:

[Jim__]

38. Has the paper published any letters that respond to these examples?

The "facts" claimed in the letters are easily refuted. I think it's worth the time and effort to refute nonsense like this. The refutation will not, of course, change the minds of these writers, but they can point out the incorrectness of these letters to people who may not know.

[JHB]

40. Creationist tactic #1...

...All questions are rhetorical. Just because they ask scientists to explain something doesn't mean they'll pay attention to the answer.

[MindPilot]

42. The only problem with the let them be stupid/send the kids to private schools solution

Is that every scientifically illiterate, every technologically inept dimwit we allow our culture to produce ultimately has a profoundly negative effect on the rest of us and society as a whole.

The only way out of this is to abolish all private religious schooling, set tough educational standards for science and dump this idea that your ignorant backwater religious beliefs are somehow worthy of "respect."



The "theory" of gravity holds the universe together; the "theory" of aerodynamics holds an airplane up and the "theory" of electronics puts this picture on your monitor. Which one is ONLY a theory?

[MedleyMisty]

49. Speaking of dumping the idea of ignorance being worthy of respect

I've been thinking lately that we're at an evolutionary period where dead wood needs to be cut. Ignorance and prejudice and hate and blind faith and obedience and projection of your problems on to other people and controlling/abusing others because you can't control yourself needs to go before we kill ourselves and the planet.

Unfortunately I can't think of any way to do it that wouldn't get those of us who have moved on from the Dark Ages in the crossfire and severely damage the planet for centuries to come.

Only thing I've got really is reaching out to the kids of these people and trying to give them what they're not getting at home - love and acceptance and a decent education based in facts and logic and reason. I think most of our problems stem from child abuse -studies have shown that the more you're abused as a kid the more likely you are to think that invading other countries is a really good idea as an adult. So try and save all the kids that you can, and maybe that'll help some.

[riona]

45. We must preserve our Crackerhood

[amb123]

47. WRONG!

To teach evolution as a scientific fact is not education, but indoctrination every bit as insidious as the rewriting of history by dictatorial regimes.

WRONG! To teach CREATIONISM as a scientific fact is not education, but indoctrination every bit as insidious as the rewriting of history by dictatorial regimes.

[Jackpine Radical]

50. Toddlers rising up, protesting the oppressive demands of toilet training.

"I can make poopy in my pants if I want," declares Little Timmy.

[nashville_brook]

53. good one!

[MissB]

52. Take your favorite fundamentalist to see "The Golden Compass"

coming out in theaters in December. Then buy them the 3-book boxed set for Christmas.

[BreweryYardRat]

54. I hate this state.

We get tons upon tons upon tons of lunatics and whackjobs, pouring in from all over the country.

Meanwhile, almost everyone with an IQ over 120 is fleeing the state. As soon as I graduate, add me to that group.

[MindPilot]

75. Let me extend an invitation...

the weather is nice and while we certainly have our share of dumbasses, they are generally not sanctioned by the state.

[L. Coyote]

57. "be more vocal" Worry not. Everyone knows only the asses bray!

If a diety had created that barnyard, asses would make less noise :rofl:

[DefenseLawyer]

59. She blinded ME... with science!

I knew that song would make a comeback.

[immoderate]

65. I'm going to the science standards town meeting in Coral Springs on 11/27.

I'll be on the lookout for the traveling road show of creationists.

I was one of the reviewers of the proposed science standards. The proposal is excellent. I hope we can hold on to them.

I hope other South Floridian DUers can attend the meeting at Coral Springs High School. This part of Florida is most like the Northeast politically, and the standards should be met favorably here, but we shall see. In any case, I intend to report back.

--IMM

[madfloridian]

66. Central Florida School Board says don't teach evolution alone.

This is almost unbelievable to me. To those who in the past have said I was overreacting to the environment in this area of Florida....apologies accepted.



Polk School Board Leans Toward Inclusion of Intelligent Design

LAKELAND | A majority of Polk County School Board members say they support teaching intelligent design in addition to evolution in public schools.

Board members Tim Harris, Margaret Lofton and Hazel Sellers said they oppose proposed science standards for Florida schools that lists evolution and biological diversity as one of the "big ideas" that students need to know for a well-grounded science education.

Board member Kay Fields said last week she wants intelligent design, which is promoted by some Christian groups, taught in science classes in addition to evolution.

"If it ever comes to the board for a vote, I will vote against the teaching of evolution as part of the science curriculum," Lofton said. "If (evolution) is taught, I would want to balance it with the fact that we may live in a universe created by a supreme being as well."

Board members Frank O'Reilly and Brenda Reddout said they were unwilling to endorse intelligent design over evolution. Board member Lori Cunningham said she hasn't made up her mind.

And the best remark of all from the County School Superintendent:

Polk school Superintendent Gail McKinzie said she thinks evolution is a theory and intelligent design a belief.

The district, McKinzie said, will be forced to accept the new standards if the state Board of Education adopts them unless board members "want to make a court case out of it."

This is simply pathetic.

[and-justice-for-all]

67. The Laws of Evolution iare a concrete fact...

So get the fuck over it already. If anyone has some solid evidence to present in defense of the creationist idea, please bring it forward. However. they can not do so and never will be able to do so, because you can not have any tangible evidence to support ID, because you have to take the entire idea of a grand creator on FAITH alone and not FACTS; hard facts that The Law of Evolution has plenty of to support it.

ID has no evidence at all to support its claims, ID is pseudoscience and nothing more.

[windoe]

68. So carbon dating and core samples

are tricks of the devil? Radioactive decay is not hard to understand.....oh I give up.

[dave123williams]

72. And we're looking to religious nutjobs for what is or isn't science because?

I mean, really. For people who are so agenda driven, I think their fear that Evolution is 'indoctrination' is a bit of psychological projection on their part. They're the people who cling so desperately to doctrinaire, after all.

You might as well put credit and faith in a comic book.

[Solly Mack]

79. Stupid really ought to be painful

[alarimer]

82. So evolution is indoctrination, yet religion is not?

Makes no sense.

These are scary ignorant people.

[Dr Fate]

83. I aint no GOD DAMNED MONKEY!!!

LOL! Just kidding.

[slackmaster]

86. That's right, you are a HAIRLESS YARD APE!

:D

[truth2power]

84. Apparently these fools

have never heard of Kitzmiller v. Dover (Pennsylvania). The Federal Judge (Jones), a Bush appointee, :P actually, tore the Fundies a new one.

You can download Judge Jones' decision. It's about a hundred pages, but if you're feeling discouraged about how these ignoramuses seem to be taking over, you'll feel much better after reading this.

We need to be fighting back -- better. If these nutjobs ever show up in your school district, copy some of Judge Jones' points onto index cards and put yourself on the agenda at the school board meeting.

http://www.pamd.uscourts.gov/kitzmiller/kitzmiller_342.pdf

Kitzmiller v. Dover. Memorandum Opinion. December 20, 2005



* * * * *


edit to add> I notice that Raindog (upthread) mentioned the PBS Nova documentary on the above case, shown this week. I saw that . It was good, but trust me -- Judge Jones' decision is even better. :)

[skul_Donteecha]

85. There is observable evolutionary change.

It can be found in the underground rivers and pools of water where no light from the outside enters that water. There are fish living in that water that have no eyes. There are eye sockets in their skeletal makeup but no eyes because they have no need for eyes. The waters are pitch black and over the millenia, their eyes dis-evolved. These fish evolved with other faculties taking over the job of being aware of their surroundings, just like bats are able to do. The people who pooh pooh evolution do so because they cannot fathom any reason other than creation to explain why and how we got here. Look to the fish. In addition to France, you can find eyeless and sightless fish doing quite well in Mexico, In Mammoth Cave and many other locations. Look it up.

[Dr Fate]

87. Changes in gene frequencies can be observed in real time, under a microscope.

So imagine the changes in gene frequencies that occured in organisms over MILLIONS of years.

But you already knew that!

[sakabatou]

89. EPIC FAIL for the Fla. DE

[PVnRT]

90. Blah blah blah anti-science bullshit blah blah blah

Sadly, this type of ignorant nonsense is not confined to the creationists, nor to the right wing.