If some DUers spent half the time attacking Rethugs that they spend attacking Dems...

[NNN0LHI]

...we will win the next presidential election and have huge majorities in both houses of Congress.

Don

[MadMaddie]

1. Agreed....

[physioex]

2. Ummmm...I am sure that is the case for some DUers....

However I spend more time attacking rethugs on yahoo answers, come join in......

[DURHAM D]

3. Given that 40-50% of the folks that post here

are not Dems - what should we expect. :shrug:

[johan helge]

19. Are they lurking freepers, trying to split Democrats, or

are they mostly Greens, trying to make the Democrats be like the Greens (and lose all elections)? You really think 40-50 % here are non-Democrats?

[DURHAM D]

54. Yes.

Mostly they are just wankers and need attention.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftCoast]

8. The building's on fire. You going to torch the other half or try and save it?

[jgraz]

12. And thanks for playing Really Bad Analogies

If the building's on fire, why would you ignore half the flames just cuz you like that part of the building? :crazy:

[LeftCoast]

14. You wouldn't. You also wouldn't set fire to the half that wasn't burning.

At least not if you actually wanted to solve the problem.

[jgraz]

15. Riiight...the *criticism* is the problem

It couldn't possibly be the pro-war, pro-corporate betrayers of the public trust now, could it? :shrug:

[LeftCoast]

17. When you take a flame thrower to the entire party

it becomes somewhat counterproductive.

[jgraz]

18. Could that man be any strawier?

Broad-brush attacks on the party are locked or deleted on this site. Sounds like you are targeting a different sort of dissent.

[creeksneakers2]

40. With a stretch you could say that is criticism

but not constructive criticism, or persuasive criticism. Its just an absolute statement insult against a nuanced reality.

[jgraz]

46. That's because I didn't feel like writing my PoliSci thesis today

Are you really saying that criticism must pass some sort of minimal level of quality before it's acceptable? The next time I see Pelo$i or Fein$tein, my nuanced criticism will consist of a raised middle finger in their direction. That's a completely valid (and well-earned) expression of their job performance.

[creeksneakers2]

51. And I'll call your obscene gesture any name I want. n/t

[jgraz]

56. Yes, you can

What you don't get to do is to imply that my (or anyone else's) criticism of the Democrats is somehow the source of the general disappointment and dissatisfaction with the party.

[creeksneakers2]

59. I didn't imply that

You hallucinated it.

And I get to say whatever I want. You talk about moderates limiting your speech but then make demands about what I can or can't say.

That's the second time you tried to do that.

[Captain Hilts]

5. Ain't that the truth. I like something about ALL the candidates. nt

[LeftCoast]

6. Hear! Hear!

:applause:

[John Q. Citizen]

7. Pretty simplistic. It kind of reduces the whole debate about our future to the status of a football

game.

If winning is the only goal, then hey, we won. Rah rah!

but what did we win?

Also, I'm not convinced that DUers actually hold the key either way to whether we win or lose.

And what would sports be unless we second guess the coach, the play calls, the starting line up, the off season aquititions. etc?

[johan helge]

20. Well, the Nader voters in Florida in 2000 definitely

held the key for Bush. But, of course, winning is not "the only goal", there are things more important than beating Bush, of course, for instance .... for instance voting for Nader!

[John Q. Citizen]

33. That is a phony analysis. For a whole lot of reasons. One main one was that

Nader didn't have any sway over the USSC who appointed bush although Gore won the most votes in Florida.

It also lets the Repos of the hook for illegally scrubbing 50,000 legitamate black voters from the voting rolls.

What really pisses me off about Nader is that he is wrecking marriage for straight people, he's got 15 welfare Cadillacs and keeps pumping out babies while white people have to work for a living, and I can't get a job because he's an illegal alien...Oops, wrong scapegoat there, but I hope you get my drift.

What we need is a law, Damn it! A law that says only Dems can run for President! That would fix it.

[johan helge]

36. If not for Nader, the USSC and Republican dirty tricks

could not have stopped Gore.

But, of course, there was no significant difference between Gore and Bush, so voting Nader was so much more important. The Repubs mush have been laughing their heads off, when they heard this kind of wisdom.

[John Q. Citizen]

38. Do you have any evidence to back up what you claim? Or do you just

love having a hard on for Nader and always rely on scapegoats to blame when things don't go your way?

If you had donated 50,000 hours on the ground in in Florida for Gore, you could have won the election for Gore, but you didn't.

You didn't even sell all your possesions and any real property you may have owned at the time and donated it to the cause.

It's all your fault!

Look scape goating is ugly. Some people think it explains everything, but they are wrong.

[johan helge]

39. Bush won Florida with a margin of

a few hundred votes, as far as I remember. If not for Nader, Gore would of course have won Florida with a margin of several thousand votes. This isn't difficult.

I'm sure we Gore supporters should and could have done more. But at least we supported the right candidate.

[John Q. Citizen]

43. Go read the newspaper consortium report. Gore won Florida,

Nader is just a guy who has done a lot of good for the country (saved millions of Americans lives)

and then he ran for president and made some observations about how close the Repos and Dems have become. We see the same stuff happening today.

You make all kinds of assumptions you assume that somebody who voted for Nader would have suddenly become a Gore supporter if Nader didn't follow the american dream and run for president.

The socialist workers party got thousands of votes in Florida in 2000 Why aren't you all pissed at them?

The Repos outright flat out stole Florida. It's their fault, not Nader's.

If you would prefer a system where people aren't allowed to run for president unless pre-approved by the Dems, work for that.

I could care less what your view of Nader's politics are. Some people like them, some don't.

It's just the scapegoating that bothers me. It's so right wing as to be abhorrent.

Buchanan ran that year in Florida too. Are you saying it's fine that he ran, but horrible that Nader did?

[johan helge]

61. This isn't difficult

"Nader is just a guy who has done a lot of good for the country (saved millions of Americans lives)"

If so, fine.

"and then he ran for president and made some observations about how close the Repos and Dems have become. We see the same stuff happening today."

They are both trying to win the same centrist voters, that's why they can seem similar to uninformed people. But, of course, they are trying to pull the country in quite different directions.

The stronger the Democrats are, the more to the left they will go - and the Repubs will be forced towards the left to win elections. What's happened is the opposite, because the Repubs have become so strong, they have been able to become so conservative without losing elections - and the Democrats have been forced towards the right to have a chance to win. Strength is the main thing, and the Greens weaken the Democrats, and that way move both the Dems and the Repubs towards the right.

"You make all kinds of assumptions you assume that somebody who voted for Nader would have suddenly become a Gore supporter if Nader didn't follow the american dream and run for president."

That the majority of Nader voters prefer Gore before Bush, isn't the strongest assumption I've heard.

"The socialist workers party got thousands of votes in Florida in 2000 Why aren't you all pissed at them?"

I'm pissed at them too.

"The Repos outright flat out stole Florida. It's their fault, not Nader's."

Without Nader, their tricks would not have been sufficient to win. You can of course assume that the Repubs would have won no matter what, that the election was a complete fake. If so, Nader had no practical effect. But that wouldn't make Nader's candidacy any politically better. It still benefited Bush.

"If you would prefer a system where people aren't allowed to run for president unless pre-approved by the Dems, work for that."

I don't.

"I could care less what your view of Nader's politics are. Some people like them, some don't.
It's just the scapegoating that bothers me. It's so right wing as to be abhorrent."

If not for Nader, Gore would have won. Why be silent about that?

"Buchanan ran that year in Florida too. Are you saying it's fine that he ran, but horrible that Nader did?"

Yes, I love that Buchanan ran, just like the Repubs love that Nader ran.

[blm]

50. Gore won by over 100,000 votes WITH Nader in - Jeb and the RNC were prepared

to adjust the vote count to whatever they needed in almost every county in the state.

It's those who focus blame on Nader who actually have helped the Democratic party IGNORE the serious nature of election fraud by the RNC and fucked up 2002 and 2004 becayuse the DNC and the party infrastructure that allowed the RNC to go uncountered and to wield control of the outcome at every level where the votes are allowed, cast and counted.

Why would the DNC be so lax and uninvolved re election fraud? Maybe they took a pass on 2000, 2002 and 2004. Dean sure had alot of collapsed party infrastructures to rebuild all over the country after the previous party stewardships by Bill Clinton's chosen men.

[johan helge]

63. If the election was a complete fake -

then nothing, not even Nader, had any practical effect. But that doesn't make Nader's candidacy any politically better. It still benefited Bush.

[blm]

64. Nader's candidacy was USED to explain away the closeness when Gore actually won

by a strong margin.

Why didn't the DNC make a stink about that and keep HIGHLIGHTING the fact that Gore won by over 100,000 votes?

Because they knew they were responsible for that loss - not Nader - and DEFINITELY NOT Gore for taking a populist tact in that race.

[johan helge]

67. Gore lost because of many things -

one of them was Nader. If not for Nader, he would have won.

You can always say that those who try to stop a fire, and fail, should have been more clever. But at least they tried. Those who just stood there, and didn't help to stop the fire, and then blame the firefighters for not being clever enough - they are shameless.

[blm]

68. Nader got 90,000 votes in Florida - Gore beat Bush by over 100,000 votes

WITH Nader in the race. The RNC was already maneuvering to rig the numbers in Florida, and they would have stolen it by erasing 190,000 votes just as easily as they erased 100,000.

It's absurd to think that Florida's RNC would have been obstructed in any way if only Nader wasn't on the ballot.

[johan helge]

70. If the election was a complete fake -

then nothing, not even Nader, had any practical effect. But that doesn't change the political effect of Nader's candidacy - it benefited Bush.

[blm]

71. Yes - which is why I said it gave political cover for WHY and the Dem PARTY

used it to obscure the REAL reason Gore lost - because of THEIR FAILURE to secure the elction process.

Pretty convenient to blame it all on Nader or all on Gore, depending on which crowd you're speaking to. They did the same thing to 2002 candidates and 2004 candidates - when the starkest truth is that the election PROCESS was stolen first and then the elections.

[johan helge]

73. I think the Dems

should have done more to secure the election process (e.g. saying loud and clear how crazy voting machines without a paper trail is). But the Greens can of course not use this to obscure what they did to help Bush into The White House.

[blm]

74. My point is what they did mattered little in the ACTUAL OUTCOME while election THEFT

that REALLY changed the outcome got no attention and was NEVER DEALT WITH when it was the most important factor in whether or not Dems could take the offices they won in 2002 and 2004.

[johan helge]

75. Noone knows for sure

whether the Repubs would have been able to steal the election if Nader had not run. But with Nader's help, it was obviously within the possible range.

I think both Nader and the election process should get a lot of attention. There are many people who still have the Greens-attitude, and e.g. say that they won't vote for Hillary, if she's the candidate.

[creeksneakers2]

41. What evidence do you have that 50,000 legitimate black voters

were scrubbed from the rolls?

Sounds like the same old finger pointing from Nader supporters who can't justify their votes.

[John Q. Citizen]

44. With pleasure. I'm surprised that you missed this. Where have you been?

A smart person such as yourself, and you don't even know the well documneted history of the stolen election in Floida? No wonder Dems keep getting our asses kicked. People who say they are on our side don't read, don't know, they use Nader to divert blame from the people who stole the election. Here, educate your self creeksneakers. Why doesn't Hillary speak out about this, do you suppose? She probably just doesn't care, and her supporters then don't care either.



http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040517/palast

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=464051
The birth of a lie. The last shall be first by media acclamation and judicial ratification.

Rather than focus on the at least 50 thousand plus black Floridians who were summarily removed from state registration rolls due to a faulty felon purge computer program (citizens who had every right to vote), we had to endure the endless discussion of a few hundred flawed ballot in a retirement community.

Instead of focusing on the over 20,000 invalidated presidential ballots in Duval County, which came almost exclusively from Democratic precincts, and the tens of thousands more mostly minority ballots that were arbitrarily tossed out by so-called election judges, we had to endure a dyspeptic Judge from Leon County who told the lawyers he had plenty of time when he knew time was of the essence.

And when the votes were finally being recounted in Miami Dade, instead of focusing on a preppy riot by Republican Congressional staffers flown in just for that event; a riot that ended the vote count, we were diverted to minutiae. Even though knowing their identity would have been a huge story, no one bothered to tell us who these scary folks were. (more)

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. You need to read Armed Madhouse

and there are a ton of documentaries you need to watch. Good grief. Where have you been?

[creeksneakers2]

53. I don't go by Greg Palast , unless he cites evidence

I don't even trust the guy. Last time I read him he was going on about thousands of voter caging E-mails he said he was going to produce but as far as I know never did. I generally don't trust any agenda journalist from any side until they gain my trust. Josh Marshall and Taylor Marsh are examples of ethical and thoughtful commentators to me.

From what I can gather, the original felons list for Florida was had about 57,000 names. From there it was sent to county election boards for further verification. Elections supervisors from 20 counties refused to use the list at all. Others sent letter to accused felons giving them an opportunity to respond. Of course, this is shocking way to determine if somebody can vote or not, but the list of felons was whittled by it. The list also contained names of people who actually were felons, so the count drops further. Anybody who has worked from a registration list knows that around a third of the names on it are people who moved away. There is no process to remove these people from the list. Some, but not many of those on the list were white. So how many qualified black voters were actually disenfranchised? Nobody knows for sure.

The Palm Beach Post still found thousands of names that were wrongly dropped from the roles. They found at least 100 who were denied a chance to vote. There's no telling how many more there were.

What there was not was 50,000 legitimate black voters dropped from the rolls. That's an exaggeration. The number dropped were still enough to have changed the outcome of the election. But I think the number of Nader voters who would have voted for Gore was far larger.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. Methinks you overestimate the power of DU.

[jgraz]

10. Yes, lack of criticism often leads to greatly improved representation

:eyes:

[johan helge]

28. Criticism can be ok -

it depends on the attitude and the amount of the criticism. If you're a freeper trying to split Democrats, it's not ok. If you're a Green trying to steal votes from Democrats, it's not ok, this is a Democratic forum. But if you're trying to make the Democrats better and stronger, it's ok. If you're trying to make the Democrats "better" but "weaker", I think Bush cheers for you.

[jgraz]

49. You're throwing out accusations rather than dealing with substance

Personally, I don't care if fucking Adolph Hitler rises from the grave to call Nancy Pelosi a spineless corporate hack. If the criticism is valid, it doesn't matter who initiates it, or for what reason.

You may want to consider the possibility that the best way to make the Democratic Party stronger is to actually make it stronger, rather than pretending that their glaring deficiencies don't exist.

[johan helge]

62. I don't understand what you mean (nt)

[Chovexani]

11. Some of us can walk and chew gum at the same time. (n/t).

[fightthegoodfightnow]

13. JOIN THE GOP: That's Your Party

The party where DISSENT is not allowed.

Give me a break.

Democrats are allowed to have lively debates about the issues and we are even allowed to disagree.

[jgraz]

16. .

:applause:

[ourbluenation]

22. that's too harsh. I think all he's trying to say is "united we stand, divided we fall". sheesh.

now that makes him a GOP'er?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

30. Right............got it..............

:sarcasm:

Love it or Leave It.

No thanks.

[EFerrari]

21. We're going to win, in any case. And that's like saying go fight

with the neighbor when you're mad at your family.

lol

[Skidmore]

23. Excuse me. Ummm, I don't think we're being asked

to select a Republican for the Democratic Party candidate during the primaries.

But then, again...

[L. Coyote]

24. They won't earn their paychecks

:rofl:

[Mark E. Smith]

25. If you were a conservative operator wanting to disrupt this site ..

.. and it's legitimate political conversations, wouldn't you just
claim to be a disgruntled progressive outraged by all the
"sell-outs" running for the Democratic presidential nomination?

That way you could regurgitate GOP attack garbage all day long
without any possibility of being called out on it by this site's
moderators.

I suspect this place has been badly compromised and that those
in authority here are too fearful to do anything about it.

DU's Achilles heel.

It's sad to see what has become of this place.

[annarbor]

72. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Finally someone spelled it out. The tone of this board took a weird turn a few months ago...your explanation just
nailed it...

Ann Arbor

[leftofthedial]

26. the repukes suck. they are traitors to this country and this planet.

I think being a repuke is the same as belonging to a crime syndicate. they should all be rounded up and subjected to harsh justice for the crimes they've collectively perpetrated on this country and on the world.

That doesn't make certain "democrats" any less guilty of being accomplices.

[TreasonousBastard]

27. Nevah happen...

between the trolls doing their shitstirring and the purists who seem to actually believe trashing Dems on a Democratic site is a good thing.

(It's really embarassing when threads trashing Democrats make the Greatest.)

[ourbluenation]

29. I think I might be in love with you...

and I think I might take a break from this place and come back after the primaries. People HERE at the DU, of all places, are portraying Senators Clinton and Obama out to be evil people. actual evil people. it's nuts. someone else said that if you aren't supporting Congressman Kucinich they will put you on ignore. wth is that?

I myself was hoping for a Gore entry into the race and it's clear that's not going to happen now. I think we have some wonderful candidates to choose from. Isn't that a good thing?

[Mark E. Smith]

34. Amen.

I personally think this place is badly compromised and infiltrated by
people who flat-out hate Democrats.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

31. Give Me a Break

I'm sooooooooooooo sick and tired of those who swallow the pill that any criticism of anyone in the Democratic Party is not to be tolerated far less celebrated.

We are not the Nazi Party or the GOP Party.

Dissent is allowed.

[creeksneakers2]

42. An exaggeration so blatant it becomes a distortion. n/t

[fightthegoodfightnow]

66. Right...... Good For You

Like I said..................

I'm sooooooooooooo sick and tired of those who swallow the pill that any criticism of anyone in the Democratic Party is not to be tolerated far less celebrated.

We are not the Nazi Party or the GOP Party.

Dissent is allowed.

INCLUDING YOURS............THANKS FOR SUPPORTING MY POINT EVEN IF YOU DON'T LIKE HOW I WROTE IT. LOL.

[Laurab]

45. And so many of them DO make the Greatest.

Which is where I usually go first when I log on to DU. I'm basically taking a break, and not participating in many threads because the greatest page is almost always full of threads trashing Dems. The faux outrage, the "shitstirring", and almost always posted by someone who is an outspoken supporter of a rival candidate.

I take a break for a day or two, come back, and the next faux outrage is posted, and the funny thing is, none of the issues that the poster thinks make the candidate "toast" ever seem to be noticed much outside of DU.

I don't understand it - it's certainly not going to make me go out and vote for the OP's candidate, so what it really accomplishes I have no idea.

I spend a lot less time here than I used to, and probably will until after the primaries, because I don't expect it to change much.

[Blue-Jay]

32. You're assuming that there are enough DUers to influence an election.

That is not true, in any meaningful way.

[KaptBunnyPants]

35. And it would gain us nothing if we only end up with half a Party which supports our principles.

It will take more than defeating the Republicans to change the status quo of this country. Too much of our own Party has the same view of government that the Republicans do, that it is the tool of the ruling tribe to give patronage to their friends and family. I don't want to be a Democrat if the Democratic Party becomes the Party of war, greed, and corruption; the only way to prevent that is to be just as hard on bad Democrats you are on Republicans. In many ways bad Democrats are even worse, as what they do, they do in our name.

[Baby Snooks]

37. But it's "primary season"

If you think the Democrats are rough, imagine the Republicans. Nicey, nicey they ain't. If the heat's too much, well, stay out of the kitchen. But then don't complain about what's served at the table.

[deutsey]

47. It's wabbit season

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :evilgrin:

I agree with your comment.

[Fading Captain]

52. Good Lord.

If the Right Wing Dems win the presidency and the congress is controlled by corpoate Dems, what good will that do average American.

[NNN0LHI]

55. We won't have child molesting, bathroom cruising, diaper wearing Republicans running this country

Which to me alone is a great thing.

Don

[BoneDaddy]

58. Wow

it is gross exaggerations like that that drive me nuts in here, when we demonize the opposition with such hystrionics, any point that might be valid after that is not even heard.

[Naturyl]

57. We already know that Repukes are bad.

People don't come to DU to hear about how bad Republicans are. It's common knowledge here. How do you know that many DUers aren't opposing Republicans in other venues, where some people actually support them?

[bluestateguy]

60. One way to fix that...

invite Freepers to this board.

That will unify us all in no time flat.

[Pushed To The Left]

65. K&R! Nothing wrong with criticizing fellow Democrats on policy issues, but the bashing gets out of

control here sometimes. Criticism is fine,but the circular firing squad is counterproductive in my opinion.

[EstimatedProphet]

69. Not gonna happen

They aren't interested in Dems winning. They even say so occasionally, and talk about how party loyalty is tantamount to treason.