Police probe Tasering of 82-year-old woman

[flashl]

Cops: Elderly Chicago woman swinging a hammer needed to be subdued

Chicago’s Police Department is investigating an officer’s use of a Taser last month on an 82-year-old woman who was swinging a hammer when police arrived.

Officials with the city’s Department on Aging went to Lillian Fletcher’s home Oct. 29 to make a welfare check, and called police when they saw Fletcher in a window swinging a hammer back and forth, police spokeswoman Monique Bond said Tuesday.

Officers arrived and in an attempt to subdue Fletcher one of them used their Taser, Bond said. The department is trying to determine if the officer violated department policy regarding the use of stun guns.

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[Bonobo]

1. I'm quite sure they followed proper 'procedure'.

[1620rock]

3. God yes, why an 82 year old woman could swing that hammer...

like Samson did with the jawbone of an ass and flatten 50 cops. :eyes:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

2. D U H

this made the front page of several papers.

poor lady has mental issues. So they broke into her house, fully armed, shielded, masked and ready for war. that was almost as bad as cops breaking in and tazsing a sleeping man - in his own house.

[ManiacJoe]

4. Not that breaking her wrist with a night stick would have been better,

but the whole incident seems to have been mishandled long before the taser was brought out.

She is lucky they didn't shoot her since all club-type weapons (including hammers) are considered deadly weapons in untrained hands.

[pnwmom]

9. She is lucky they didn't shoot her? When did we turn into that kind of country?

And breaking her wrist with a night stick definitely would not have been acceptable either.

Police officers are trained to use common sense, aren't they? No hammer would have been a deadly weapon in HER hands.

This was a 5 foot tall, 82 year old woman. All they had to do was wait. Eventually, someone could have distracted her, and someone could have grabbed her from behind.

[seabeyond]

11. could've even tried telling her to put it down first. i dont know...

but then the article leaves a lot of the story out.

[ManiacJoe]

15. It is a given that they did that.

[Richard Steele]

16. On what planet is that a "given"?

nm

[ManiacJoe]

17. Ours, for one.

Find me a cop who has not been trained to issue the command to "drop the weapon" while reaching for his.

Needless exaggeration without the sarcasm tags helps no one.

[Richard Steele]

18. So, you're claiming every single cop ALWAYS follows procedure; not one ever "breaks the rules".

Pull the other one; it's got bells on. :eyes:

[ManiacJoe]

19. Some rules are just too easy to follow.

No, that is not what I am claiming, but you knew that already.

Short of a factual hint otherwise, yes, it is a given that the cops did order her to drop the hammer before they tased her. And it is a given that they gave the order multiple times, until shown otherwise.

[seabeyond]

21. i thought it was a given they would WAKE UP a man before tasering OR

two grown men could handle a 14 yr old handcuffed girl. not a stretch to question the cops now a days if they would at least suggest the lady drop the hammer before tasering. kinda like when answering a silent alarm at two in the morning and see a man sleeping on the couch, wake him up to see if he belongs BEFORE tasering

no, it is NOT a given that they bust in and zap

[Richard Steele]

23. After reading that, I don't think you know what the phrase "a given" means. nm

[pnwmom]

33. It IS a given that they knew she was elderly, small, and mentally ill.

They were called there by Social Services, who went there to make sure she was SAFE.

Not to get her tasered.

It is a given that they are idiots and/or power crazy.

[seabeyond]

20. you would think. but cops have been surprising me the last hand full of years

things that are a given, no longer are.

[cuke]

22. You would think, but there's a long history of police abuse

Things are much better now than they were. There's still a long way to go, but to think that this is getting worse is completely contradictory to every indicator.

[Mutineer]

12. whenever I read about them tasering someone, that's what I think first

it could be a hell of a lot worse. W/o the tasers, they'd be shooting and probably skilling a hell of a lot more people. Not that tasers won't kill you in some cases, they will, but still, I'd rather be hit with one of those than with a bullet.

[seabeyond]

13. they arent allow to shoot 82 yr old ladies, 14 yr old handcuffed girls

men sleeping on the couch, or frustrated man held ten hours in airports... either.

[cuke]

24. You're kidding, right?

right?

[seabeyond]

26. are you seriously suggesting cops are allowed to shoot a sleeping man on a couch?

and you are asking me if i am kidding? am i in bizarro world?

[cuke]

28. Are you seriously suggesting they aren't?

Cops are free to use deadly force WHENEVER they have a reasonable basis to believe that life is in danger. There is nothing in the law that prohibits the use of deadly force against any of those people you mentioned.

[seabeyond]

31. a man sleeping on a couch does not give a policeman "reasonable"

basis to believe a life is endangered. nor is a handcuffed 14 yr old two male cops. IF she pulled one of their guns out of holster, then there is a threat, but she didnt.

[pnwmom]

41. Of course they aren't. When they have their guns out, they are supposed

to identify themselves and tell the suspects to drop any weapons and put their hands up. Even then, they aren't supposed to shoot unless the suspect actually makes a move toward a weapon. They aren't supposed to shoot them in their SLEEP.

[cuke]

42. Untrue

The law is pretty clear that police officers are justified in using deadly force when there's a reasonable basis to think life is in danger. While the procedures you refer to are the common policy used by LEO's when entering a home, etc, they do not limit a LEO's use of deadly force when lives are in danger. The only real issue in such cases is whether or not the LEO had a reasonble basis. None of the examples cited in this thread (ex. old lady, young teen in handcuffs, etc) suggest that there was no such reasonable basis

[pnwmom]

43. How could a cop think his life is in danger with a 14 yr old in HANDCUFFS?

[cuke]

44. I couldn't even begin to imagine

but I could see how a cop would think the child's lie might be in danger

[seabeyond]

51. kick

[pnwmom]

36. Tasers aren't supposed to be used EXCEPT in situations where guns would be used.

This is not a situation that would call for a gun.

Neither is a 14 year old girl who is ALREADY in handcuffs.

Or a man who is asleep.

[cuke]

40. So you say

[ManiacJoe]

52. That would be completely wrong.

Tasers are never used in place of firearms as they are not substitutes for lethal force. Tasers are less-than-lethal additions to pepper spray and night sticks.

[pnwmom]

34. Without tasers, they'd be relying on time and common sense, not their guns.

Not in this situation.

For example, they could simply wait for her to calm down. Or someone would distract her while someone else grabbed her from behind.

[cuke]

38. Not true

Many times, in similar situations, the mentally ill are shot. This situation is more about how the police aren't trained to deal with the mentally ill, and not so much about tasers. As you point out, they could have distracted her and then disarmed her. In her condition, her reactions are sure to be slow

[seabeyond]

45. yes n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

5. She was probably cussing in her sleep and there were children nearby.

Slam dunk tasering time.


on edit ":sarcasm:

[seabeyond]

8. you are funny. n/t

[seabeyond]

6. 82 yr old women, 14 yr old girls handcuffed, sleeping men on their couches

damn.... our cops are tough guys.

[DemGa]

7. That cop put his life on the line!!

Had he NOT caused the escalation and tazered the woman -- God knows she might have CONTINUED to walk around her house swinging a hammer!!

:sarcasm:

[Critters2]

10. By the Chicago police department....

I'm surprised it's being reported. They usually hush this sort of thing up really well.

[NOLALady]

14. If I had hammer

I'd hammer out danger
I'd hammer out a warning
I'd hammer out love between my brothers and my sisters
All over this land

[cuke]

25. This is my nightmare

My mother has dementia, and I sometimes worry about what I would do if she ever got overly violent or suicidal. I'd be afraid to call the police and afraid to not call the police

They need more training in how to handle people who are mentally ill

[AuntPatsy]

30. Thats really true, my grandmother died of Alzheimer's, toward the end

before she was confined a good two years she was a bit of a let's say wild horse, spew some viciousness that baffled many a family member and even threatened to beat her son over the head with a hammer for taking the keys to her car, it was really sad but if you just placated her as in talked to her, you could calm her down..

It is completely wrong what that police officer did.

We have a huge problem in law enforcement and in society in general who have a hard time dealing with mental illness, the government is no help at all seriously and in the process far too many citizens good ones are bearing the blunt of this neglect that begun with Reagan's term if you ask me.

Easy to read up on what that foolish man did, and he himself with the same disease? Amazing and troubling and outright horrific that with today's tech world we are still so far removed from basic common humanity for those less fortunate.

[cuke]

35. Wow, you really said a lot there

We live in a topsy turvy world. I wonder if this has to happen to everyone's family before people start to wake up.

[pnwmom]

37. Both in handling these people, and in identifiying them in the first place.

I read about a police officer who was sent to check on the well-being of a woman who had passed out from diabetic coma in her car. When she didn't follow his "order" to get out of the car, he tasered her.

[lonestarnot]

27. Well those sons a bitches!

I declare I have not seen anything like we are becoming. It's freak'n frightful if you're the scared type.

[Zookeeper]

29. It's like the police have a new toy with their tasers and...

just can't resist an opportunity to try it out. Or it could just be incredible laziness. Why bother trying to find a good solution to a conflict when you can pull out your nifty new taser?

[seabeyond]

32. yes, it is like they have a new toy to play with. n/t

[pnwmom]

39. Exactly. It's a new toy, and it's laziness.

A taser is only supposed to be used when a gun would otherwise be used -- in that case, a taser is obviously preferable.

But you wouldn't shoot a bullet into an 82 year old with a hammer, or a handcuffed girl, or a sleeping man on a couch, or a woman unconscious in her car. You're not supposed to be tasering them either.

[Bassic]

46. At this rate

Tasers will turn cops into complete pansies.

[seabeyond]

47. turn cops into complete pansies...... good point. and i think

right on.

[seabeyond]

48. we understand cops use to have to be tasered in training. with lawsuits

and injuries, having the tasered aimed at them is now optional

[flashl]

49. Yes, it was suppose to remove fears about gun usage

IIRC, the taser is not considered a weapon. Therefore, the gun's level of force standards are not a determinant.

[AngryAmish]

50. Don't tase me, sonny!

[seabeyond]

53. kick