How Can I Support A Party That Condones Torture?

[spanone]

i keep asking myself this.

the democrats, through feinstein & schumer are enabling torture.

they can parse it anyway they please.

yet i cannot support republicons.

conundrum:grr:

[rodeodance]

1. 2 idiots does NOT = 'the party'!!

[spanone]

2. well then, what party will stop torture?

this was the opportunity. they had enough democratic votes to stop the nomination from getting to the floor.

[ClassWarrior]

15. You.

You're the party. I'm calling Feinstein's and Schumer's offices on Monday and asking their staffers how it feels to work for someone who condones torture.

If enough of us do this, we'll see a reversal. But ONLY if enough of us acknowledge our responsibility in a democracy, and don't try to blame someone else.

NGU.

[spanone]

18. i blame them....i called their offices...but i shouldn't have to tell them not to torture

that's just simple humanity to me.

[Mme. Defarge]

38. It's also

breaking the f*ing law!

[krkaufman]

49. Precisely. They're our representatives in Washington, not our leaders.

The people of California and New York will be equally to blame should they not put sufficient pressure on Feinstein and Schumer to do the right thing on Mukasey.

[MADem]

20. The floor is where you'll learn the facts you so desperately seek, though.

The floor is where every Senator, from Akaka to Wyden, will say Yea or Nay to this matter--unless, of course, they duck the vote.

[spanone]

22. i don't 'desperately' seek facts. i seek a party that stands for something.

[MADem]

26. Well, you'll not find it by whining about two Senators and extrapolating your gripe to the entire

Democratic caucus. Because that's what you're doing.

It might make you feel better, because you get a little attention, but it doesn't solve your essential difficulty.

If you want a cadre of lockstep robots that all think and feel the same way, they've got that going on in China. They sure stand for 'something,' and they all pretty much sing from the same sheet music. Funny though, I don't particularly like what they stand for, and can't get into the song they sing, either.

This is What Democracy Looks Like--as everyone likes to chant. It's NOT lockstep.

Legislators do respond to their constituencies, though.

Communicate with your state delegation about this issue, and call those two members, too, while you're at it.

Despite your disappointment in the Democratic caucus, you're not going to get a better deal with the other team.

[fujiyama]

37. Yeah Feinstein and Schumer are serving their constituencies

by supporting a torture advocate for the highest ranking law enforcement position in the US?

Spare me the defense. FUCK THEM. Feinstein's been at this game for a LOOOOONG time. If you look back at her record on crucial votes, this is nothing out of the ordinary.

[MADem]

39. They're likely not 'serving' them. They're doing what they can get away with, though.

This isn't a "defense."

You know, it's pretty fucking tiresome when petulant advocates don't read what is written and make assumptions about "defense" when no one is doing any goddamned defending.

I'm simply stating fact, and for that, I get sanctimonious, empty-gesture LECTURES and dramatic "Fuck THEMS!!!" Yeah, those will help--NOT.

The facts are that DiFi and Chuck will do what they can get away with. The facts are that THEIR constituencies aren't griping at critical mass.

Now, if you don't like those facts, go gin up a little outrage amongst their constituencies, if you can even compel any interest in this matter. Don't get pissy with me because the issue isn't working out to your liking--I don't have the magic wand to turn the tide; those constituencies do.

[krkaufman]

50. And decrying the "Democrats" is so much easier than getting down to the business ...

... of electing better representatives of our needs.

[MADem]

56. Yeah, that precinct walking, hanging crap on doorknobs, talking to folks, phone banking,

GOTV work..it's ....er...."HARD WERK, ah tell ya!!!" To quote the Crawford Caligula!!

Way easier to gripe! AND generalize!!

When I have a candidate I'm working for, I try real hard to regard all that shlepping though neighborhoods as "exercise" and "visiting." Gee, ain't this FUN!!!!!

It's STILL hard work, though!! Especially when the weather is less than kind...

But I DO it!!

[krkaufman]

57. I need to practice what I preach ...

... but phone-banking sure does suck. It makes my heart sad for those forced into telemarketing.

[cali]

3. That's something only you can answer.

All I can tell you, is I dread the vote, and finding out which other dems are going to vote for Mukasey

[The Magistrate]

4. Those Two Persons, Sir, Are Not The Whole Of The Party

[spanone]

5. good, then i would assume that every other democratic senator will vote against it

when it comes to the senate floor.

[WillyT]

6. Oh... I Wouldn't Count On THAT !!!

:shrug:

[The Magistrate]

10. Probably Most Will, Sir

What this highlights, really, is the lack of Party discipline: some here are accustomed to say 'we don't go in lock-step like Republicans' as if that were a good thing. A party that cannot cohere and act as a bloc cannot be effective, even with a nominal majority.

[spanone]

12. i agree with that one-hundred percent. if a party stands against torture ALL menbers should

this is a morality issue...what else do we stand for?

[MADem]

28. Well, I'm one of those.

There are some Democrats who will not get elected if they adhere to the centrist or liberal ideals of the party. Jack Murtha is one. Harry Reid is another.

While I understand your view, I don't buy "lockstep discipline" on most issues. I do think legislators should represent their constituencies first and foremost, their party second.

However, when voting on core platform principles, that's a horse of a different color. This issue IS a core platform principle, but it's up to the voters of NY and CA to get the message to their legislators in no uncertain terms. Anything anyone else might do is not as effective as overwhelming voter feedback.

[krkaufman]

51. True. But one would think that integrity would necessitate Republicans ...

... such as Warner, Hagel, McCain, Snowe to also be against torture... so party coherence isn't a virtue.

p.s. I'll be interested to see how many of those who support Mukasey/torture get re-elected. (It's not like we didn't already have a referendum on torture in 2004, and a significant portion of the population thought it Jim Dandy.)

[movonne]

7. But don't you think that there is probably a lot more...

[TahitiNut]

13. Indeed. But it seems the "Big Tent" hosts arsonists.

:shrug: At some point, many would believe that "Democrat" means something. As an avidly anti-partisan independent liberal who lived in the South (George Wallace's Alabama) in the 60s, I've never labored under that delusion.

As long as the Democratic "majority" in the Senate is one or two, all it takes is one or two to vote with the fascists. If the Democratic "majority" in the Senate is four or five, it'd only take four or five. Seems like carrots and sticks ... and many are asses.

[The Magistrate]

25. That It Does, My Friend

And depending on the issue, those can strike from either wing. It is the abiding curse of coallition, and particularly of political lfe on the left.

[WillyT]

27. LOL !!! - Ah... THAT Explains The Party Mascot !!!

:evilgrin:

[Cha]

8. Those two dinos

are corporate loving bushit enablers..there's still few Dems around who want outta Iraq and don't Condone Torture like di-fiend and fuckchuck.

[spanone]

11. a few dems won't cut it i'm afraid

[Rex]

9. Well it kinda all went to shit when they said America doesn't torture.

And the 'major news media' told everyone the same lie. Or they did the 'ask not the right question' thingy.

[mod mom]

14. I'm glad Feingold joined others in opposition!

[MADem]

16. Now, who's that Super Hero with the arms that stretch out forever??

Could that possibly be YOU?

Because that's as LONG a stretch as I've ever seen here on this board.

If you are pissed off at two Senators, well, say so. But don't try to suggest they are representative of the party as a whole.

Using your shitty logic, why should we have such massive problems with the GOP? After all, Ed Brooke, Linc Chaffee and Ike Eisenhower all flew under that flag...

:eyes: :eyes:

DANGER, Will Robinson!!! MASSIVE LOGIC FAILURE!!!

[spanone]

19. it's shitty logic to think they don't represent the democratic party

[MADem]

23. They represent their constituencies, and nothing more than that.

Unless they changed the rules while I was sleeping, that is.

And I don't think they did.

[spanone]

24. yes, they changed the rules while you were sleeping.

i don't think that dianne feinstein's constituents feel represented by her vote

[MADem]

29. Then they need to get on the horn.

In massive numbers, around the clock. They need to send emails, letters, telegrams, faxes, to her office in DC and her state offices as well. They need to write letters to the editor, call in to talk programs, and raise some fucking hell.

And if she continues to ignore them, they need to stop WHINING about her, and put up a primary candidate and defeat her ass.

She's obviously not feeling the heat from her constituency, otherwise she'd not vote the way she's planning. They need to rachet it up.

It will be interesting to see if her vote was for the process, or for the individual, too. Everything we have read suggests it is the latter.

We'll know that for certain when the full Senate roll is called.

[stimbox]

31. You are naive. You are the only one whining.

You don't think that DiFi knows that we don't support her vote for Mukkasey?
Kind of hard to get through to her office on the phone when it is constantly busy.
Emails get ignored and or answered months later.
The Democratic party won't allow anyone to run against her in the primary.
The DLC would flood the primary with money for DiFi, like they do for every other Conservative Dem cndidate that faces a progressive challenge.

[MADem]

32. Look, the only "we" that counts to DiFi is the "we" that votes her in every six years.

I'm not whining, either--you are. I 'get' how the system works. I may not like her view towards this nominee, but I understand what she's doing and why she feels she can get away with it. There isn't critical mass opposing her on this.

The "Democratic Party" won't "allow anyone to run against her," eh? Ohhhh kaaaay....it's a Borg, then...

Abandon hope, the glass is always half empty!!

I see where you're coming from.

[stimbox]

33. Wanna buy a bridge? I have 2 for sale. n/t

[MADem]

35. ....

:eyes:

Check that mirror.

[krkaufman]

53. If you can't get through on her phone line, then go to her local offices ...

... or to your US Rep's local office to have them put pressure on her, and bring along some friends. Nothing is more frightening to pols than people actively resisting.

[lapfog_1]

30. Who would be their constituencies?

The people of California and New York?

I'm pretty sure that if everyone in my state (CA) was polled, more that 50 percent (I would like to say more than 70%, but that might be an overreach) would be opposed to our government conducting torture... and more than 50 percent would not support an AG who cannot state that waterboarding is torture and against the law.

So DiFi isn't doing a very good job representing is she?

And we all have a right to ask what the hell is wrong with our Democratic party. We worked hard (I know I did) in 2006 to change things... to have someone stand up and STOP BUSH and his criminal repuke cronies. Yeah, I knew it wasn't going to be all flowers and parades after the election, but I expected a lot more than what we've gotten.

As for this committee vote. It's the only important vote. If ChuckShub and DiFi vote the way they say they will, that's it, game over.

When the nomination reaches the full Senate, old Joe Lieberman will be there to quisling us again and vote to install the new Torturer-in-Chief. Where it had to be stopped was in committee. And DiFi and ChuckShub screwed us.

So pardon me if I am not all "rah rah" about the Democratic party this time.

Oh, we will likely all vote Dem come Nov 2008... but many of us won't be all that enthusiastic about it.

[MADem]

34. IF they were polled, you say. IF that many were EVEN AWARE of this vote or this issue.

Which, face facts, they aren't.

The constituency in California includes those idiots on JAYWALKING. They vote for DiFi because they've grown up with her and they RECOGNIZE THE NAME, just like they voted for Ahhhhnuld, because they knew who he was.

They don't THINK.

This issue, unfortunately, has not achieved 'critical mass' and it is unlikely to amongst the larger population. They're more worried about what Britney is up to.

And the committee vote, I daresay, is NOT the only important vote. Not by a long shot.

We'll see how TWENTY TWO incumbent Republicans, whose seats are up for grabs in 08, vote, along with their smaller cadre of Democratic incumbents who are in the same boat.

These votes can be used as cudgels when election time draws near. It's why some candidates running for office prefer to DUCK these sorts of votes. And that, too, is telling.

Don't shoot the messenger. It doesn't help.

[krkaufman]

55. For the love of dog, MADem is just saying that her constituency needs to get in her face ...

... and let her know that there will be repercussions. How else do you think politicians measure their risk?

[krkaufman]

52. They "reflect" on the Democratic Party, but their positions cannot be extrapolated ...

... as representative of the Democratic Party. Just from the committee commitments, 4-2, the "pro-torture" wing of the Dem Party is at 33%. :)

[Neshanic]

17. People support a party that thinks just because who I love means I have no rights.

So you just go with the one that you know will still try to do the right things.

Try being the key word here.

[Solly Mack]

21. I think it's more a case of how can the whole support members who condone torture

It can't-(well, it shouldn't) - the proverbial tent just isn't that big.

And by tent I mean the whole of society as well.

Nothing, but absolutely nothing, charges that we accept or tolerate those who support torture.

[fujiyama]

36. Hell this morning on Late Edition Spectar was tougher on Mushy's declaration of martial law

than Feinstein.

She's become little more than a Lieberman clone - but worse yet, she's corrupt and a war profiteer. I really, really despise that woman. CA could do so much better (and has in Boxer).

[cali]

40. fuck specter. really. he always talks a good game and then

stabs you in the back. He's announced his support for Mukasey. Don't ever think that he means what he says.

[fujiyama]

46. Don't get the wrong impression

I don't believe a damn thing Spectar or any other republican says (including "moderates" Snowe and Collins). Spectar, like Hagel often talks tough, but caves in.

I'm saying that it's pathetic, that even his doublespeak is more forceful than anything Feinstein has to say on this though. Also, I don't expect Spectar to join Dems on anything. I am quite sick however of having our own fuck us over.

[deutsey]

41. Try new Metaphysicalmucel

It purges you of that pesky conscience and helps flush all your values away!

:evilfrown:

[Individualist]

42. It's DLC that condones torture: Ford, Lieberman, Schumer and Feinstein.

DLC is the rot that has corrupted the party.

[sandnsea]

43. As if it's only two people

If it were only two Dems waivering on torture, the party wouldn't have a problem.

[robinlynne]

44. CALL Schumer and Feinstein tomorrow! tell them.

[shenmue]

45. Huh?

Are Democrats running the war? Is there something I missed?

I am tired of this smarmy shit where people bitch about the Democrats more than the Republicans. The Democrats are *not* supporting torture. The Republicans are, and they have carried this out many times already. So put away the hanky and grow up.

[CreekDog]

47. So you are blaming those who vote against him for the actions of those who support him?

That's not only not fair, but it discourages them from taking the right stand, knowing you will tar them with what other Senators did.

[krkaufman]

48. The PARTY that supports torture is the Republican Party.

Feel free to also direct your energy at the ouster of Schumer and Feinstein, a couple Democrats who warrant replacement should they allow Mukasey through.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. You don't

you support those who as individuals do not support torture... as in local progressive candidates.

I do not support any of the national party aparatus any longer

And as much as it is going to do no difference I wil call DiFi's office tomorrow and give them an earlul

In fact, wil remind them that due to this vote, they have lost my vote.

I know she ain't running unitl 2012 but sometimes that thread, if made by enough people, makes them think twice about it

I doubt it, but I want to be able to sleep at night.