In Defense of "Extreme Comparisons"

[Mike03]

I'm fascinated, enthused and worried by these historical comparative posts, but I believe the questions being debated are very much worth considering.

Are the comparisons between Hitler's Germany and Bush's America valid? Are they ludicrously overstated?

Americans are very inept when it comes to taking sociopolitical warnings about the future seriously.

Isn't one reason we are in the fix we are in because people are too complacent and indifferent to the human cost of the political changes we are experiencing? Most American citizens seem to have the mentality of cartoon characters when it comes to understanding the implications of the legislation that dominates our lives, and our foreign policy in the Middle East. How many Americans do you think know what a "Signing Statement" is?

"Everything will be okay," they assume, and this passive assumption is based on some Normal Rockwell faith in the goodness of America that is just an anachronism (forget anachronism, maybe it never did exist). Or perhaps it is based on pure hope and complete abdication of personal political responsibility. (Or terror of seeing the stark reality of what our country has become.)

Yet, in defense of working class America, does everyone have the time to do the thorough research necessary to navigate the complicated maze of reality when it is so obscured by mainstream media?

Noam Chomsky has argued that education about politics is a privilege because only people who have the time can educate themselves.

Okay, maybe the comparison of Hitler's Germany to the Bush's U.S. is an overstatement. But we are headed in an extremely dangerous direction, and sometimes warning flares help to pre-empt catastrophe. It's an "over-correction" but it is a correction for a good purpose, which is to prevent a hideous, unConstitutional, unimaginable future no one wants to see.

We can see the crocodile's teeth, even though we are not yet between the crocodile's teeth.

Think of a car skidding on black ice. You oversteer to maintain a straight line. This is a poor metaphor for why I'm not disturbed by these analogies. It is vital that we consider how bad things MIGHT get before we slide into a trend that is irreversible.

If most Americans were not such dunces or so hopelessly overworked and overburdened that they cannot even think straight, it would not be so imperative that we interpret the severity of our current situation as extremely dangerous, even though in fact and evidence it may be mildly to moderately dangerous. It can accelerate at any time, and it can happen overnight.

In other words, I'm in favor of these comparisons, whether I believe them completely or not, because I don't trust most Americans to even notice that we are moving in this very cataclysmic direction.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Let me clarify somehting the comparison is to the method used

to take societies, formerly open, to closed

The current laws, FISA, Torture, et al are more than just disconcerting

And the usual quip, if you have done nothing you have nothing to fear goes back not only to Nazi Germany, but to Mother Russia, (whcih was commmunist I may remind you) Checkoslovaqua, East Germany, et al

I fear though that people have knee jerk reactions, in some cases driven by fear. I fully agree with you on that one

[Adsos Letter]

3. Yeah...we don't have the equivalent of the Nazi

spectacle occurring around us, in our streets, etc. And we don't have the visible spectacle of anything associated with Stalin, et. al. ...but we are transforming into something other than a free society; and I am afraid that the "comfortable" cultural constructs of our society are lulling many which the more unfamiliar Nazi/Soviet spectacles would otherwise awaken...

[Mike03]

6. I wasn't singling you out

But your posts are among the ones I really appreciate.

I think I understand why you raise these crucial issues, and I'm absolutely delighted they are being raised. I would never have the courage to raise them myself.

Yes, I agree about FISA and our torture on policy and rendition. But just being totally honest, I'm not certain that I can even conceive of these things. They are so hard to imagine--it is so hard to imagine it is happening now in our country. Yet, on the other hand, I think they probably are.

But when I get up in the morning, am I personally worried that someone in my city will be "disappeared?" Not right now. But nor do I think it is impossible.

That's why I am AGREEING that we need to sort of prepare ourselves psychologically for the possibility that these things could or already do happen here in the United States.

[Adsos Letter]

2. I don't know, Mike03...

...but my concern is that the danger in our current situation will be pooh-poohed because it DOESN'T have all the OVERT comparisons to the Hitler regime...if you get my meaning (different times, cultures, "enemies" etc.)

(sorry...I'm not very clear in expressing this)

[Mike03]

8. That's what I was hoping to express

That most citizens won't recognize the signs, and that is why I'm relieved rather than opposing these comparisons.

These comparisons are attempting to get people to at least think about how compromised our freedoms have become.

I would rather HAVE these comparisons than not have them.

Maybe I didn't clearly enough express my point of view, but I think it is vital that we consider how quickly we could slide into fascism. We have past Jingoism and we are now into fear and division. The next steps are worse.

[MedleyMisty]

4. I don't think that anyone is saying that the US is identical to 1943 Germany

But if you look at the Germany of the late twenties to mid thirties, you can see how 1943 Germany came to be. So many people seem to think that Hitler came into power in September of 1939 and that the war and the camps sprang fully formed from his forehead and there were no warning signs and it all happened overnight.

And even then, no one is saying that the US is identical in all respects to the early years of the Nazis. It's just noting a general similarity. No society will ever be identical in all respects to another one, but there are general patterns across various societies.

It's saying, "Hey, this is where the road that we're on is leading. Maybe we should think about changing direction before it gets that far."

[H2O Man]

5. Minds that find

little to compare, find very little to think about.

I think it is interesting: when the vice president tells Americans that they should not think about history, and that the war in Iraq cannot be compared to Vietnam, we know he is a vile snake. If a neoconservative we identify as a republican advocates that we forget the lessons of history, we recognize them as vile snakes, too. I think that anyone who tries to convince progressive democrats that they are better off being ignorant is attempting to inject us with the same poison as those other snakes.

When I read DUers making extreme comparisons, I recognize that they are concerned about the extreme circumstances we find oirselves in. I prefer extremists to snakes.

[burrowowl]

9. Amen!

My friends, now dead, who were in the French Resistance and my French teacher who was around 13 when she suffered from the last fire-storm bombong of Royan, recounted by Howard Zinn in his introduction to a People's History of the United States would be seriously concerned about the State of the USA today, very concerned.

[Mike03]

12. I prefer these comparisons as well. NT

[PDJane]

7. I fear the economic consequences too;

this bunch have taken the country down the road to economic ruin. I am afraid that this will be a shock of massive proportions, and the whole thing can actuate at once. Read Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein. And yes, I've also read the End of America by Naomi Wolf.

I see a conflation of circumstances that will finally allow this bunch their fascist state.

[Mike03]

10. Maybe a better way of saying what I'm trying to say...

I would want to leave people alone who make this argument, even if I disagreed with it, because the benefits of thinking about this critical issue far outweight the benefits of shooting this notion down that we have nothing to worry about. I tend to be more pessimistic about the future of not just the US but the entire world. In my mind, there is no benefit to shut down ideas like this. Yes, I could be wrong, horribly mislead, but I am worried about mindless patriotism displacing common sense, science, and the Constitution itself.

After the re-election of George W. Bush, I just figure absolutely anything is possible in this country.

[Mike03]

11. I modified the title of my post to

better reflect what I mean to say. I apologize for the ambiguity, but I truly am ambivalent about these somewhat complex issues.