The War on Iraq is simply a crime so great we cannot deal with it

[Az]

Bush and his backers have committed a crime so grand that we simply have no way to deal with it. They destroyed a nation on a whim. Without just cause. And now that we have done the damage there is simply nothing within our experience that can come close to atoning for this crime that we are all connected to. There is not vengeance that could be visited upon Bush that would equate to the damage he has done. There is no way to undo or pay for the damage that has been and continues to be done.

It is this reason that we simply cannot fathom a way out of Iraq. It is a crime beyond imagining. Our mind balks at simply getting up and leaving them the way they are because we know we are responsible for their condition. But remaining and rebuilding them in our vision of how they should be simply compounds the crime. Its like a rapist sticking around and remaking the victim in their own image.

[daninthemoon]

1. Impeach and trial at the Hague would only scratch the surface.

[lligrd]

3. That Would Help Me Deal With It A Lot Better

Turning them over to the Iraqis would make me feel even better.

[gateley]

7. You know, when you say that I envision millions of rats scurrying down holes and

scattering far and wide. This is systemic -- there would be no end to it. I keep hearing more and more about the REAL corporate America and it's far more insidious than I can comprehend. Who was the guy who told Nixon there was a cancer in the White House? Well, there's a cancer in the world and it's exponentially metastasized into a controlling, lethal, bloodthirsty giant. And I've no doubt I've heard just a little teeny bit of the nightmare. They must be stopped and decimated.

But I'd like to see us start the ball rolling on bringing the troops home and making reparations first. That's the first priority to me.

Not to mention that taking on Goliath scares the hell out of me.

[The_Casual_Observer]

2. That just about sums it up.

And it gets worse every day.

[Benhurst]

4. Impeach, convict. Indict, convict, imprison.

Recommended #1

:kick:

[gateley]

5. Which is why I think the Biden amendment is an OPTION that should be

pursued. Even he said there's no guarantee it would work, but it's an attempt to give control back to the Iraqis without just pulling the plug and saying "oops - sorry -- good luck" and splitting. I would feel even dirtier than I do know if that's the approach we took. We tore their country apart, in all good conscience and intent, we have to try to do what we can to help.

If the Biden plan doesn't work (and he said the other night he'd give it until he becomes President -- January 20, 2009) then we try again. He has faith enough to believe it will be working by then (and isn't it nice to get an actual DATE from someone?) but if it doesn't -- a possibility he acknowledges, he said he'd pull the remaining troops because they'd just be fodder.

No plan is going to get a hundred percent support from any corner, but we need to do SOMETHING to get it started, and hopefully this approach will be a good first step.

All we can do is see how it goes. I have high hopes.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

6. Should the majorty choose to awake and "deal" with this tragedy,

we luckily have space for tens of thousands in our new detention facilities... There have been gulags and stalags, what will we call ours? I am hopeful they will be called a waste of resources.

[gateley]

8. I hope they will be called "home" for Bush and his cohorts. nt.

Edit because I never proof until it's too late.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

10. ...

Much better. :toast:

[ClayZ]

9. K and R Up it goes!

[libodem]

11. You have been able to aptly express

the sentiments of many of us here. FUBAR. Now, Greenspan, has the audacity to come out and say it is for the oil. The oil company profits are up ??? percent each quarter? And the carbon footprint laws they are trying to get passed in Iraq so the oil can be privately stolen. Now this drumbeat for Iran. They will use any excuse to get in there. I think oil and pipeline routes. We want/we take. You are right Iraq is so messed up that it is beyond our wildest imagination. The Cholera alone is a crime against humanity because we have run off most of the Doctors and the drinking water is full of feces. A few months ago I claimed civil war every place i could type it. I figured when we finally admitted civil war it would become plain that we could only lose and we needed to get the hell out. Now it's plain that we are in the middle of a civil war and being shot at from both sides and maybe even a few more. The answer: ethnically cleanse Baghdad. Nice. Run people out of their homes out to the desert, Syria or Jordan. Good plan. Very humanitarian. CheneyBush needs to be tried at the Hague for every life they have taken over there!!!!!!!!

[Gregorian]

12. Yes. That is true. But let us also realize that we are partners in this crime.

This is the one thing that I do not see adequately addressed. And when attempted to mention it, brings great scorn.

I will say it again- Every drop of fuel that you use is a vote for this administration. And I don't care how you try to spin your way out of this. Americans are complicit in this crime by virtue of their consumption. I am appalled that we can put the blame on Bush, yet blindly fuel our vehicles day in and day out.

I don't want to change the subject from the original post. But this is critical. And people do not want to admit it. We are comfortable. And it's because of petroleum. We have oilmen in the White House for a reason. As I sit here typing this, the cars are streaming down every road on this continent. Think about it. Are you willing to do your part? Are you willing to stop doing what you are doing? I didn't think so.

Edit- And this is a progressive forum. And another thing- even planet earth is telling us to stop. Think about it!

[Az]

17. I do not disagree with this

It is our clamoring for cheap everything that drives our Corporate respresentation into other nations looking to extract whatever value they can out of them. They do so with no social or moral consideration. The only consideration being profit and feeding our demand for product. That is what initiated the conflict with these people and it is what continues to fuel the matter.

It started back in the 1940s when we realized we controlled a majority of the world's resources. We decided to protect our advantage rather than distribute the surplus to enable the entire world to catch up. And it was there and then that our modern era of greed was born. It is why the struggle against the idea of Socialism and Communism hit such a peak during that time. The very idea of approaching issues from a social standpoint versus a profit making standpoint was an anathema to the current thinking. And it persists to this day.

We are a people being made over in a Corporations image. People naturally are connected to one another. We are naturally empathetic to one another. We work and struggle together to survive. But a Corporation does not have the biological drive that we do and thus only operates by the rules of business that govern its existence. Thus profit is the only drive they know. And that has been shifted to our social structure via advertising, television programming, and emphasis on competition with one another rather than cooperation.

[Gregorian]

24. And we've been trained to just not think about it.

This is where I get so frustrated. I still see the flagrant misuse of resources. When bored- go driving.

And then there's population, which fuels this mess. Oh well. Some of us are suffering while enduring this. Others are just frivolously having a ball. I just hope I can find a way to live my live beside it all. I'm not doing so well. Although I think I decided today that it's time to start getting rid of some of my stuff. Like, why the hell do I have a Porsche if I don't even drive? Out with it! We're all affected by the attraction of the comfort that it all brings. And there is a degree of nature to it. The first one to kill a bear found that the fur made nice protection from the cold. And off we went... Limits. We need to observe limits. Population and consumption. To me, that's the solution to just about everything that ails this ball that floats through space.

That's my guttural rant.

[cali]

20. Bullfucking facile shit.

You bet it brings great scorn. It's deserving of it. There are plenty of people who drive to provide for their families, who heat their homes so they don't fucking freeze to death. By your absurd scandals, I'm pretty innocent, simply because I'm lucky enough to not have to drive more than 20 miles a week, heat my home with wood, and thus use very little in the way of petroleum products. I live in a very rural area and I know an awful of people who scrape by, and they NEED their cars.

They're salt of the earth folks, and I know where they'd tell you to shove your sanctimonious crap.

On edit: If you're talking about people who drive for no reason in hummers, or run snowmobiles and boats with huge engines- that's a different story, but you didn't differentiate between those folks and people just trying to live.

Oh, and I don't have blood on my hands over this war. I did everything I could think of to oppose it.

[Gregorian]

23. I want to agree.

I do agree with what you said. But does that "needing" change anything? No. The planet still melts. The wars are still fought over oil. And it IS sanctimonious in a way. But here is the problem I have with the word "need". Replace need with what the truth is. The truth is we have DESIGNED our lives around petroleum. That is where the need comes from. I am talking about the things people do above and beyond what they MUST do. And that encompasses a lot of our energy use. I designed my life so I don't have to drive. I have sacrificed a hell of a lot to be who I am. I won't give a list. But I will say I could be having a ball. And I won't. Because I care. That, isn't sanctimonius. And I am offended by those who don't care enough to think ahead. A lot of people are going to suffer over this. And mostly those who aren't even alive yet. The planet doesn't care whether these people need to drive or not.

I want to temper my statements somewhat. I know I come across draconian. I am exaggerating to a degree. I know that people need to drive. But most people who are living in this society are far more flagrant in their addiction with oil than just "need". This is why I am so radical in my finger pointing. And this is what someone like Gore might address. More than just the realization of limits, but the self-control to make changes. I am literally furious about what I see. The absolute overuse of energy. It's too bad that people are unwilling to alter their lives. Of course Bush isn't asking. Not that that would have any effect. I'm not even going to get specific. I want to. But at that point it comes across that I am asking people to make changes. And obviously if we can't even think about that, then no amount of pointing it out will work.

Are we going to change, or kill ourselves and the planet. That is what I ask over and over. All I get for an answer is "How dare you even threaten our way of living".

And I disagree. We all have blood on our hands. Some more or less than others. I also wrote and marched. We care. But it takes more than caring.

[cali]

25. Well, we part company despite your modifications.

I too have made a conscious decison to live in a certain way, and I made it many, many years ago, inspired by the back to the land movement, but I have a lot of tolerance for people who do things to survive. That's the most fundamental human drive.

As for the blood on the hands thing, I really do have cotempt for that. I believe the people who are responsible are those who took the actions leading to death and destruction and those who supported it. Those who opposed it, do not have culpability.

[Gregorian]

29. It's too difficult to look at.

And as a result, this planet is dying. I absolutely hate it.

I'm not talking about going back to a cave. I'm talking about just simply curbing wild consumption. It's not even in the conversation of Americans. It's taboo. It's treason. How dare I.

Right now I am particularly touched by this whole thing. I just sold a farm because I couldn't tolerate the raping of the forests around me. Every tree was like a dollar bill to these people. Some whom were already millionaires. So I moved back to a place that I used to know. And this little street that ends in dirt that used to be quiet is now a stream of CARS. Night and day. And for how many houses. Fifty? So what are so few people doing? It's undeniably outrageous. And that is going on all over this country. People who are just jumping in their cars when bored, for lunch, for dinner, for a soccer game, for anything. I have a friend who drove her son to Colorado for the xgames, and her daughter to Sacramento for a lacrosse game, and and and. It never ends. She's almost always in her infernal mobile.

They don't even know the damage they're causing. And all I can do is watch, and look for another place to live that isn't being destroyed in front of my eyes. I'm angry right now because I had a home. And I have one no longer. I can't even find a place that is worthy of living like a human with dignity. I'm at wits end over this. But the bigger problem is what is happening to planet earth. I wonder about the next generations. Not many others do.

[NNN0LHI]

13. There are going to be some grievous legal repercussions over this in the future for some n/t

[babylonsister]

14. Neither can the Iraqis:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x311090

[fooj]

22. .

:cry:

[democrank]

15. I`ll tell you, AZ.....

Some times I just hang my head and cry over this awful war, over what we have done to ourselves and the Iraqi people. It`s sickening. ~PEACE~

[enough]

16. I strongly agree with everything you have said, except for one thing:

This was not done "on a whim." This was done for transfer of wealth: tax dollars into corporations, and oil resources into US hands.

What you say about the crime is absolutely right.

[jillan]

18. The UN is finally getting involved - which is great since bsh keeps f-ing it up worse.

Hunt oil in Iraq really screwed things up worse.

Plus him and his leaders over there reject anything other than stay the course.
I cannot help but wonder if he is paying Maliki off. Why else would the leader of Iraq stick with such an insane plan and not
come up with a plan for peace?

I'm glad the Biden amendment is out there - it at least gives them something else to think about.

[Golden Raisin]

19. They are destroying this nation too.

But not on a whim. And I don't think Iraq was on a whim either.

[L. Coyote]

21. There is a legal concept, to "make whole" after damages are done. It is now our liability

as a nation to make Iraq "whole" again. Try to comprehend what that will cost.

Then there is the matter of punishing the guilty.

[OneBlueSky]

26. the entire BushCo mal-administration is a crime of such magnitude . . .

that we cannot deal with it . . . instead of crushing it into irrelevance, as should be done, the Congress repeatedly compounds the problem by giving them more and more and more -- of our tax dollars, of our young men and women, of our nation's credibility . . . a crime compounding a crime compounding a crime . . .

[autorank]

27. K*R This is topic #1 and thanks for the post. Bush had collaborators.

Just for the sake of argument, lets assume this:

1) The Iraq war is a war crime.
2) The initiator of the war, Bush-Chenet, knew that there was no basis to invade under international
law, yet he invaded.
3) The members of the legislative body who voted to endorse the war knew that there was no basis to
invade under international law.
--------------
4) Therefore, they're all culpable.

[Hydra]

28. I don't have any trouble envisioning a solution

and there are plenty of others who don't either. Quit being "overwhelmed" and start working toward getting the people who are in power OUT by any means necessary. And I mean EVERYONE who benefits from these wars.

If it's beyond various people's ability to comprehend and accept, perhaps those people should step aside and let us do what needs to be done.

[RiverStone]

30. Sad but true

Well said Az.

I can't fathom how Shrub and his minions sleep at night.

Oh, maybe it's called denial.

kicked this!

[L. Coyote]

31. So, focus on IRAN IRAN IRAN. Just substitute another issue to help forget

that we have a holocaust to clean up.