Is it OK to start a new Whoopi/Vick thread?

[AnnInLa]

I was trying to read the other thread/posts, but I got confused, so sorry to the other OPer, but can I please start another thread?? Just want to tell what I know about the subject:

Here in the rural, deep South, dogfighting and rooster-fighting are customary activities among certain groups of people. That sounds so elitist to say, "certain groups of people," but let me explain. During the Great Depression, in the South, most poor people couldn't afford any entertainment whatsoever, so the "cracker," "hillbilly," "blacks," and other poor groups used dogfighting and rooster fights for entertainment....usually groups of men, but sometimes women and children too. Jugs were passed around and small bets were made. Evident in the crowds were well-dressed men, in suits, obviously from the "higher class" there slumming and also drinking and making bets. Getting their jollies from the low-class version of entertainment, so to speak. I know this because my grandfather, who had participated, told me all about it many years ago.

All of my life, I have seen evidence of the dogfighting and "chicken fights." I have even attended the "chicken fights," but not dogfights. I was repulsed, of course. I have known many non-poor people who attended these events to "slum" and brag about it. One of my sons got involved with the dogfighting group locally when he was living with a girl whose brothers trained dogs (pit bulls) for the dogfighting circuit. These Boudreaux dogs are highly prized and are shipped all over the world and demand huge prices. Mr. Boudreaux and his sons made a fortune with raising, training and fighting dogs...they were busted last year in a federal raid. There is a whole culture of dogfighting (and rooster fighting) here in the deep South, with people making money by raising the dogs and selling them, with people who sponsor the venues for the fights, with the gambling. There are published reports of which dogs are fighting well, which dog-breeders are doing what with their breeds, upcoming events...all "underground" of course. People follow the dogs, their owners and trainers like other people in the U.S. follow the horse racing activities. It is a huge, commercial activity here.

Are these people soul-less? Of course.

But, it does exist, and Whoopi knew it. I don't think she was trying to excuse Vick anymore than I am trying to excuse Vick here. She (and I) was trying to explain that this criminal, uncaring culture does exist, and it is a culture that someone can be raised in and be desensitized to.

Thx for listening.

[BlooInBloo]

1. Just say "hicks" - sheesh - it's much easier.

[wicket]

22. I prefer Appalachian American

:P

[OneBlueSky]

2. we KNOW it exists . . . we also know that it needs to be eradicated . . . n/t

.

[BlooInBloo]

3. DU either didn't know or didn't care until about a month ago.

[Annces]

4. Thank you

[lazer47]

5. We used to have slavery also, and pick cotton by hand,

and plow with mules. I hope we have come farther than that, and is no reason to excuse it just because I was raised that way..

[AnnInLa]

10. I never tried to excuse it, just explain that it is out there

Because I try to tell DU people that this culture exists (many of my students lived in this culture, I can take you to one of three dogfights in my parish this weekend, I know many of these people casually)does NOT mean that I excuse it anymore than Whoopi was excusing it. Why is the messenger blamed? Yes, it needs to be eradicated, but I know that Vick could be raised in this culture and become desensitized to the suffering of the dogs. It is an explanation, not an excuse. I can tell you horror stories about the way horses are treated here too, there are so many casual non-official horse-racing tracks around here, and the horses are raised harshly, doped and mistreated on a regular basis, then disposed of the way you throw out a kleenex...all to win money with bets. This is another culture where people become desensitized to the suffering of animals.

There are all kinds of DARK cultures out there, folks, but because someone tries to tell you that these cultures exist (Whoopi) that doesn't mean they excuse these cultures.

[Freddie Stubbs]

6. Klan membership is also customary in some parts of the South

It doesn't excuse it.

[durrrty libby]

7. I appreciate your explanation, but Whoopi was trying to make

it sound as though a light bulb only recently turned on in Vick's head, and
he just now got it that people don't think this shit is cool.

This is not true. He already knew his hobby was wrong. There are plenty of
reports about that. He thought he was above the law, didn't care what others thought
and or didn't think there would be such a backlash, but he did know it was wrong and illegal.

[AnnInLa]

15. Yes, you are correct

Vick knew all along that what he was doing was criminal....whether he knew that it is immoral, I can't say. The people I know that participate in these activities that are cruel to animals don't think of themselves as immoral, I don't think. Yes, Vick thought he was entitled to break the law and get away with it, just like a lot of other athletes and politicians.

[yardwork]

8. Why start a separate thread on this instead of posting in the existing threads?

[durrrty libby]

14. If you read the OP, it explained that she/ he "got confused"

What difference does it make? Sometimes, I log on here and there are 10 threads titled

in one variation or another"Tweety is a Moran"

Do what I do. Read one, ignore the rest, or ignore them all.:toast:

[yardwork]

37. But Tweety is a Moran

and thus deserves ten threads about it.

[BlooInBloo]

9. Basically, people here are bitching because putting dogfighting in its cultural...

... context has the consequence of knocking the south. While this is deserved, DUers are squeamish about it. So they make shit up to avoid this, viz claiming that any reference to a cultural setting is a de facto mitigating factor, if not flat-out exculpatory, for Vick.

Additionally, reference to one cultural context within which dog fighting subsists draws attention to the fact that dog fighting has been entrenched in the US for a looooong time - much longer than the month or so DU has "cared" about it. Thus, to highlight dog fighting's cultural context is to highlight the fact that DU cared about a long-standing pasttime ONLY when *Vick* went down on it. This leads to awkward questions.

Dog fighting IS entrenched in southern hick "culture". And that fact does NOT excuse it in any way, shape, or form.

[Arkansas Granny]

18. Dog fighting is not, however, restricted to the south.

E. Idaho couple faces dogfighting charges

Associated Press - August 30, 2007 10:54 AM ET

MALAD, Idaho (AP) - Police in eastern Idaho say they intend to file dogfighting charges against a Malad couple.

Oneida County Sheriff Jeff Semrad says investigators uncovered what is believed to be a large-scale dogfighting operation near Malad Tuesday during a drug investigation.

<snnip>

Authorities say deputies discovered 26 adult pit bulls and four puppies, along with blood evidence indicating dog fighting was taking place on the property.

<snip>

Semrad says both will be charged under Idaho's new law making it a misdemeanor to be involved in dogfighting. The state has some of the weakest laws in the nation for dogfighting.

http://www.montanasnewsstation.com/Global/story.asp?S=7005217

[BlooInBloo]

19. I never said, suggested, nor implied that it was. That's why I prefer to call it...

... "hick culture". The *capital* of said culture is most certainly the south, but it has branch offices all over this great land of ours.

[Arkansas Granny]

23. I understand what you're saying. I just don't think a lot of people

are aware of just how widespread the practice is.

[BlooInBloo]

26. Yah. It's because the true root of their care is that VICK did it.

[Mike Daniels]

29. So if a white celebrity got caught dog fighting people wouldn't have made a stink?

If anything, Vick (because of his celebrity / not his race) brought the subject of dog-fighting out into the open where everyone finally got to see what goes on with this "sport".

I guarantee that if Harrison Ford was found to be be raising fighting dogs or placing bets on "bouts" or whatever it is they're called that he'd find his career in deep shit as well. Matter of fact, Ford, unlike Vick, probably wouldn't have any fans lining up outside of studio walls begging producers to give him a break and would find himself permanently out of a job.

Given that the "culture" that still accepts dog fighting as entertainment can be summed up as sadistic thugs (white/black/green/etc.) who get their jollies off torturing animals I see no reason to try to understand their upbringing or how they came to believe that this is acceptable behavior

[IndianaJones]

30. That is a narrow view. What is the difference between these "thugs"...

and those that participate in more socially acceptable animal torture?

[ProfessorGAC]

27. Well I Knew About It

But, i guess i didn't consider the evil with regard to "underperforming" dogs. I knew it was terrible from the fighting perspective, but i got more outraged the more i heard about it.


Maybe this is what happens when we turn punks into heroes.
The Professor

[CatWoman]

11. Thank you Ann

But some people are determined never to "get" it.

[Canuckistanian]

12. Vick grew up in a housing project in Richmond, Va.

He's as much a "country boy" as Gee Dubya.

[underpants]

13. um Newport News

not Richmond

I think I know the one that they are now saying that he grew up in "The Aquaduct" was REALLY bad news (sorry for the pun) in the early 90's but that is still no excuse.

[Canuckistanian]

16. Sorry, I was misinformed

That'll teach me to check out my info before posting. :banghead:

[Arkansas Granny]

17. I didn't see the entire conversation, just the clips that are being

aired, but it didn't sound to me like she was excusing his behavior. As abhorrent as these activities are, acknowledging that they occur and understanding why a person might become involved in these activities is not the same thing as condoning them or excusing the people who participate in them. This is true of any illegal activity.

[AnnInLa]

20. Well, you said in 3 sentences, what I was trying to say

in 14,387 sentences!! I just don't get why people here are jumping on "one of our own" (Whoopi) who was trying to give an honest explanation of how Vick was involved in this activity. Thanks!

[ProfessorGAC]

25. Sorry, Ann, But I Heard Something In Her Tone. . .

. . .that seems like excuse making. Not what she said, but the way she said it. And, i've been a Whoopi fan since she was still doing stand-up, so i have no bone to pick with her.

But, i picked up an exculpatory tone in her statement and i can't agree with her on this.
GAC

[AnnInLa]

31. Is that kinda like gwb looking into Pootie's soul?

lol

[IndianaJones]

21. You are correct. However, nothing unites white people of all political stripes like black people...

speaking up in regards to other black people.

[BlooInBloo]

24. Reverse racism is an abhorrent thing.

[IndianaJones]

28. Looks like everyone was a big Whoopi fan till she got uppity. nt.

[ecstatic]

34. LMAO. And of Andrew Jackson, the NAACP, Jamie Foxx...

the list goes on... Not to mention the (intentional?) twisting of their words into something they weren't. I don't recall anyone saying that dog fighting is a good thing.

[IndianaJones]

35. Correct. None of them ever defended dog fighting in any way. nt.

[AnnInLa]

32. oh, snap

[Mike Daniels]

33. So blacks who seemingly excuse bad bahavior by other blacks can't be called out by white folks?

Because that's pretty much the point you seem to be making on every Vick thread that pops up.

Whoopi's..."I don't think dog fighting is right but people need to understand the culture person "X" grew up in" approach is pretty damn close to asking people to cut Vick some slack. And in that case, she should be called out regardless of the race of the person calling her out.

[IndianaJones]

36. I think she is speaking the truth. I think the NAACP is speaking the truth.

I think Vick is treated differently because he is black. I think dog fighting is a convenient excuse for many to say things that may otherwise be seen as unacceptable. Thats my take.

[astonamous]

38. I think...

what people were looking for from Whoopi and others who have given their opinions in the media, is the same outrage that I/we have. When we heard the response from Whoopi today, which was measured, calm and logical, our knee-jerk reaction was to go off on her again, knowing that she does love animals and has even worked with us rescuing horses. Yes, we would have loved to hear her pull a "Rosie" (Love Rosie too!) but she didn't, she was making sense and discussing the whole issue and not just the gut wrenching part that keeps us awake nights.

I am on the front line of rescuing and every day I see the scars, both physical and mental, that are left on the animals. That is the part that no one seems to address. Yes we all know that dog fighting is a horrible thing, but we aren't hearing and maybe we don't want to hear, how horrible it truly is. Everyone is debating on the living conditions of Vick's childhood but no one is talking about the dog's living conditions. What they had to go through day in and day out. The mental stress that must have caused and the consistency of the instability of their existence. It rips at my heart to see their faces and the pain in their eyes.

Here are pictures of our newest family member, Casper. He was thrown away because he wasn't a good enough fighter...he was lucky.


Casper in the shelter...his ear was so painful and he had lost all hope.


After major ear surgery and 4 skin cancers removed. What a handsome boy.


Two months after we formally adopted him, he is just now starting to "live" with his new pack.


This is pure joy!