Iraq might descend into chaos if we pull out...

[Fovea]

As though they are experiencing some new golden age of democracy, peace, and freedom currently.

I simply am breathless when I see this sad line trotted out by Dems, like that idiot in Vancouver.

Today, Iraq is in chaos. While not total, you cannot say that our presence there makes one squat's worth of difference.

And now baby bush is saying how we are going to punish the Iranians for helping the insurgents. When are we going to punish the Saudis, who are doing the exact same thing?

We must show our opposition to this insanity. I suggest that Washington will descend into chaos if we attack Iran. But since there might be some profit in it for Blackwater or Halliburton, that will be ok by the Cheney admin.

I think that we need to take back the democratic party first, then we can clean house. But leaving the blue dogs and DLC in place will only get us corporatist rule with a donkey logo, and that is a non starter for me, and hopefully anyone else who wants America back.

I am entirely sick up and fed with the war on terror/middle class. And should demand the entire constitution back or bad things are going to happen.

[Cleita]

1. It probably will for awhile, but the fact is we have two bad

choices, stay or leave. If we stay nothing is going to change. If we leave, there will be chaos for a time, however, if we use Vietnam as a point of reference, the Vietnamese did pull themselves out of the chaos and rebuilt what was destroyed. Today they are a peaceful nation that we do business with. Perhaps the same will happen in Iraq and the ME at large if we stop meddling in their affairs for our own greedy purposes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Imagine what would've happened if we'd pulled out of Vietnam after 4 years.

Thank god we stayed around for 16 years and made that country stable before pulling out.

[On the Road]

5. That is a Useful Analogy

The aftermath of the US pullout was actually not all that bad -- not nearly as bad as Iraq would be.

However, if the US had seriously tried to pull out of Vietnam with a peaceful transition, there was a much easier way to do it. Simply fulfull the original agreement and hold nationwide elections. That was never an option because the "wrong party" would have won, but it would have prevented a lot of bloodshed.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. ROFLMAO.

"The aftermath of the US pullout was actually not all that bad -- not nearly as bad as Iraq would be."

[On the Road]

11. In Vietnam, the Leadership Was Pro-American

but 80% of the population were pro-North. After the North took Saigon, they had basically won and were accepted by the largest part of society. There was no drawn-out civil war among different blocks or ethnic groups. The Chinese who dealt with the Americans had their money confiscated and they were put on boats.

Iraq has much greater potential for catastrophe. There are already paramilitary forces killing members of other ethnic groups. The populations cannot be geographically separated without something like the mass chaos of the Indian partition (in which over a million people died), or the war of attrition in Bosnia. The oil means a straight partition is unlikely to work, since it would be economic suicide for the Sunnis.

Because of the US presence, the military has stayed under a single command structure. If the US leaves abruptly, that will probably break down.

[BOSSHOG]

3. Iraq DID descend into chaos when we pulled IN

a FACT lost on the trash which still consider themselves patriotic and still consider themselves bush supporters.

[On the Road]

4. Iraq Very Possibly *Will* Descend into Chaos if the US Pulls Out

Personally, I am not content with the prospect of a Bosnia or of an Indian partition. The country is nowhere near that today.

[Fovea]

8. How much is it worth?

the USSR did not want to give up the promise of a socialist Afghanistan, and it was on their border.

It destroyed them. Would it be ok for the NYSE to lose ~100 pts per day while we waited for a stable Iraq, for example?
Would it be worth losing another 2 or three highway bridges a year across major rivers?
Would you be ok with rationing gas, so that the military could keep fighting?
Would >10% inflation per year be ok?

If California decided to withdraw from the US, would it be ok to let them go because we could not fight in Iraq/Iran/Afghanistan and fight a civil war at the same time?

What if it required a draft?

Bush said we could fight this war with no more sacrifice than watching the news reports. Of all the wretched, damnable lies he has told us, that one will prove to be the worst, I suspect.

[On the Road]

10. How Much It is Worth

is a completely amoral attitude. The US owes it to the people of that region to leave Iraq in the best possible shape.

Most of the arguments that I've seen take the position that "it's already bad", "there's already a civil war." This ignores what could be a difference of hundreds of thousands of additional lives if the US leaves Iraq in turmoil.

It is not necessarily a long process. But it does have to be done correctly. And it has to include giving up all the idea of controlling the region and dictating to the governments.

Bush could theoretically do this, but everyone knows he won't. I just hope the next president is a Democrat who will take the right steps.

[Fovea]

13. I think that if we destroy our economy and capability

In the process of doing something best done by other powers in the region, whose interests are more real and direct than ours we do the world a disservice.

It is impossible for a multi-national force to even contemplate peace keeping with us there as oil pirates and subversives to the concept of Iraqi self rule. We have absolutely no moral force to give. Surely that is obvious by now. We are not now, have not been, nor have any possiblity of becoming an honest broker of Iraqi political stability. All we are there to do, have been there to do, and will remain there to do is to control the world's secon largest reserves of oil. All else is spin.

Just curious, how many of your friends/family are there or have been there in the last year?

I think we have almost zero possiblity to affect Iraq in a meaningful way that does anything but increase the likelihood of further attrocity the longer we stay. We are already in a hole and the Iraqis are in it with us.

And the first law of holes states...

[tabasco]

14. We owe the Iraqis their right of self-determination.

Any government or institutions we put in place at the end of a tank barrel will be destroyed the second we pull out and to think otherwise is utter ignorance of history.

The sooner we get out, the better for the Iraqi people. There was no cholera outbreak in Iraq until we got there and "helped" them.

[catmandu57]

7. Yes they will descend into a period of chaos

hell they're in chaos now, yeah it'll get worse, but we'll be out of it.

[Disturbed]

9. "stay or leave"

This is not the majority of Dems in Congress view point.

[MilesColtrane]

12. BushCo™ pulled the cork on that genie when they decided to invade.

Whatever carnage ensues was writ by their insane attack, not by the those who advocate ending the occupation.