For All Those Who Should Think Impeachment Should Be Off Of The

[malaise]

Table!!

Nancy Pelosi et al are you listening to Bill Moyers?
Are you listening to Bruce Fein and John Nichols

Impeachment is the cure for a Constitutional Crisis.

What a fabulous discussion.

The Constitution is more important than Bush and Cheney. Hold them to account. IMPEACH!!IMPEACH!!

This is the best program I've watched in years.

Edit headline, text.

[rodeodance]

1. gotta get this transcript!

[malaise]

2. Great program. Vote on this poll

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2007/07/poll_civil_liberties_and_natio_1.html

[madokie]

9. disagree 71%

[rodeodance]

59. will do

[jedr]

87. Done;

The framing of the argument was wonderful. It's not about Repub's vs Dems. it's about our Constitution and the future of our democracy.:patriot:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

7. The show should be available on Monday to stream online at the PBS..Bill Moyer's site.

Wowowowowowow!!!!!!!!!!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

3. Can you change the subject line to For All Those Who Think Impeachment Should Be Off Of The

Table???? Nancy isn't reading this but lots of DUers will be!!!!

I was going to start a thread stating this and then mention this program and its points! This is a must see by every DUer and EVERY AMERICAN!!!!!!!

[malaise]

6. OK n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

10. Thank you! Fein and Nichols rocked! I feel so emotional right now. eom

[rodeodance]

17. I have heard Nickols talk of his bk: The Genius of Impeachment" before and have

started to read it. GRAND

[malaise]

21. I'll order his book tomorrow

Oh yes.

[rodeodance]

34. ITs very readable and clear.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

24. And Fein was amazing. Here is a man that worked for Reagan, helped Impeach Clinton and

yet the love and knowledge that he has for the Constitution just flowed over.

[rodeodance]

41. He knows the constitution----says Congress does not (actually JN said that)

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

73. It's sadly true. American's send Constitutionally illiterate people to Congress.

As long as money is in the equation of electing Congressional members, we will always have problems. The best and the brightest, if they don't have the financial backing, don't have a chance.

[malaise]

80. That was scathing condemnation

they don't know the constitution.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

129. Then it is our duty, each of us, to send the link to the video to all of our Representatives.

They need a primer on Impeachment!

[stellanoir]

4. They nailed it totally.

[Nite Owl]

5. What a show

if only some in congress would listen.

He was right if congress knows that the emperor has no clothes and still wants to pretend the country is in big trouble.

[DemReadingDU]

8. Excellent Program

John Nichols and Bruce Fein discussing Impeachment

[malaise]

12. Hubby is screaming with delight

He's on the phone talking to family overseas.

[rodeodance]

31. Shout it from the ROOFTOPS

[lonestarnot]

11. Damn. I missed it.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

15. You will be able to watch it online, probably starting Monday.

Here is the link to Moyer's site at PBS

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2007/07/poll_civil_liberties_and_natio_1.html

I will keep an eye on it and post it when it's available.

[lonestarnot]

95. Cool. Thanks OSO.

[malaise]

16. Well you've been ahead of most people on this one

Superb program.
Started with Nixon, then Clinton and then laid out the case against Bush and Cheney. Absofugginglutely brilliant.

Gosh I miss intelligent discussions on television. Thanks Bill Moyers.

[RedEarth]

13. Not only the best program, but the most important program

that been on television in years. We have to demand that impeachment hearings take place.

[malaise]

18. Ditto

Love how they laced into the media.

Add.

[rodeodance]

23. says the founders anticpated over-reachment and the MEDIA should step up

[rodeodance]

14. we need to send this to the press AND all our congresscritters!

[rodeodance]

19. says Nancy took away part of the Constitution when she took Imp. off the table!

[hippywife]

20. The most exciting episode

I've seen in a long time and that's saying something coz Moyers is always good!!

Impeachment is the duty of the congress and a cure for the crisis, not a crisis in itself! Yeah, John Nichols! And I've never been so in agreement with a conservative in my life! Bruce Fein totally rocked in this discussion!

[malaise]

32. They were brilliant and Moyers asked all the right

questions.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

42. He also played the devil's advocate which was great as their replies to him were phenomenal! eom

[malaise]

49. What a difference a real journalist makes

We should send the video to KO - I wonder if he'd use it.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

116. I'll make a mental note to forward it to him when it's available. eom

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

133. .....

[rodeodance]

45. that was great

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

22. It starts here in Chicago in 30 minutes.

I can't wait to see this program.

[RedEarth]

27. It's an outstanding show.... I just wish I had recorded it

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

35. Thanks for reminding me. I will record it and pass it around to

friends.

[rodeodance]

47. send it to Pelosi!!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

81. Send it to Pelosi and JOHN CONYERS! Impeachment starts in the House Judiciary Committee!!!!

[rodeodance]

86. send them this thread

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

113. Are there direct email addresses for them? Everytime I try to send an email to a Rep that isn't

my own, they won't let me email. :(

[hippywife]

29. Don't let anything keep you from it.

Every American needs to hear this discussion. Enjoy!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

30. I wish I could watch it again right now! eom

[rodeodance]

33. lets all write to PBS and ask to RE-AIR it

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

38. It's going to re-aired on Sunday here in NY at 7PM. I don't know about other parts of the

country.

[hippywife]

43. It just got more

exciting and compelling as it went on! I could watch it again, too!

[lyonn]

88. While watching it, reasons would be put plainly forward for impeachment

The lawyers spoke so plain and absolute as to why Bush and Cheney should be impeached I thought I should make notes but was afraid I'd miss something. After the show it was like there is no other way to handle what this Pres. and VP have done to our Constitution except impeachment. It was like it is the only patriotic thing to do, insist on these two to be brought before Congress and explain themselves and why they have not honored the Constitution. This needs to be done or we will have lost our rights totally and become servants, peasants, something like that, maybe they said surf? They said that letting Nixon off the hook set us up for this abuse of power, it is Now time to stop this madness. They said we need a Dem who would say from the Gut and all their being that this type of leadership will not be tolerated. They were not sure who would or could stand up strongly for this cause. That is a sad statement. That it appeared that the politicians were more concerned about the next election than our Country! How sad is that?!!

Yes, I too would like to see it again. Reading it and watching it could be two different things.

They also blamed the media for these abuses. No shit. Will this show or any like it be on MSM? What a joke.

[eallen]

25. Damn good show! I'm grateful to the DUer who recommended it this am.

Impeach.

:hippie:

[rodeodance]

26. Lots of talk of similarity to NIXON--even worse as N. did not tell Dean not to testify!

[malaise]

39. The John Deanand Miers comparison was very important

Both held the same office and Nixon didn't dare prevent Dean from showing up at the Congressional Committee.
The Dems better not fugg up with Harriet Miers next week.

Another good program up now - on SAIC and the push for war in Iraq.

[rodeodance]

28. "Pelosi is violating her oath of office" WHOW

[rodeodance]

40. I have always said the Pelosi had NO right to take this tool off the table.

[TahitiNut]

36. Starting here now ...

8 WFUM: Friday, July 13 10:00 PM
Public affairs

Lawyer Bruce Fein and author John Nichols discuss impeachment; poet Martin Espada discusses how heritage, immigration, violence and war have influenced his work.

[rodeodance]

66. welcome

[rodeodance]

37. talking of how Bush is making this a perpetual war (war on terrorism)-and therefore

Bushco says he can do what he wants as Commander in chief.

[rodeodance]

44. Pelosi NEEDS to watch this show. Lets all contact her while our Passions are up!

[hippywife]

46. You're reading my mind!

I was just thinking the same thing! :hi:

[IChing]

48. Thanks for filling in west coasters

[hippywife]

50. Only 8 recs for this thread?

Everyone kick and rec this thread. Get it on up there! This is too important and the arguments too compelling to let it flounder!

[rodeodance]

57. I did but agree with your recommendation

[rodeodance]

51. talking of how there is no Repug in Congress who will stand up to Bush!--like

goldwater did to nixon

[rodeodance]

53. he is really disssing Congress right now (including dems)

[Fly by night]

52. "Impeaching a lawless pResident is not an option for Congress -- IT IS AN OBLIGATION."

That from Bruce Fein, the conservative commentator on the program.

Two other excellent (and patriotic) lines from John Nichols --

"By taking impeachment 'off the table', Nancy Pelosi is violating her oath of office."

"Don't view impeachment as a constitutional crisis -- IT IS THE SOLUTION TO A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS. Don't confuse the strong medicine (impeachment) with the disease (a lawless and despotic Executive branch)."

By hosting this hour discussion, Bill Moyers is our lone journalist standing against the fascistic tanks in our Tienanmen Square. Either the Congress (regardless of political party) will rise to its obligation to remove Duh Fuhrer or the American people must do so themselves.

Every American must see this program -- I am going to check to see if it will be re-broadcast here in Tennessee. If so, I will alert everyone I know to watch it.

[lyonn]

100. Impeachment a solution to a constitutional crisis, exactly

They were determined to make it clear how important impeachment is. This was so damn good. It is sad that probably so few Americans knew it was on or would bother to see it. Oh, and those guys said that during the Nixon fiasco that the media showed it daily as the proceeding went on, not so now. The media is worthless.

[rodeodance]

54. GOOD---saying Dems need to go talk to Pelosi--have COURAGE to do so.

[rodeodance]

55. saying as a GROUP--they need to go to PELOSI and say-IMpeach should NOT

be off the table

[rodeodance]

56. saying that Pelosi is making the mistake that many are making thinking that

Impeachment is constitutional crisis rather that CURE for constitutional crisis.

[malaise]

58. Don't forget to vote on this poll

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2007/07/poll_civil_liberties_and_natio_1.html#c19623

[lyonn]

102. Let's tell her to get out of that big building she works in and

take a deep breath and start thinking clearly, see what is really happening to this country, and what the people are saying and thinking, not just about the next election. That goes for All of Congress...

[rodeodance]

60. saying Congress has a duty to confront the Executive Branch!! BRAVO

[malaise]

64. The most important part of the discussion was

pointing out the danger of letting them get away with violating the constitution.

[hippywife]

69. That and I really liked Nichols point

about not viewing impeachment as the crisis but the cure for the crisis. People who argue against it in this situation are taking the wrong view of impeachment, entirely.

[anotherCTliberal]

79. Couldn't agree more. This is a cure for our present state of crisis!

So frustrating that 26% still support this a-hole.

[malaise]

84. I included that brilliant line in the OP

We should repeat it. I'll add it to my signature line tomorrow.

[TahitiNut]

98. Please note: A few of us have been saying the EXACT SAME THING repeatedly on DU. Repeatedly.

... only to attract (what I very strongly suspect are trolls or) VERY misguided people engaging in some of the most contorted rationalizations I've seen for a long time in order to maintain a sweaty grasp on their partisan pom-poms.

[flyarm]

61. THIS SHOW IS BRILLIANT!! WOW !! I AM BLOWN AWAY!!

impeachment is the medicine !!

we are the bosses ..and * is not the king!!
we know the high crimes and misdomeaner's!

this is making me cry...

to see this ..what we have all fought for for so long now..in a tv screen..a discussion..a discussion of what has been done to our republic..is just wonderful!!

fly

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

67. I loved it when they said that Impeachment is the cure for a Constitutional Crisis!!!

Fly, yes, it was totally BRILLIANT!!!!!!

:hug: :loveya:

[flyarm]

85. hey lady we have been on a long journey to finally hear this ..haven't we??

yes indeed it has been a long journey..but it is what bill just said ..lost body's and souls of our nation and our soldiers..and so many innocent lives that have been snuffed out by these mother fuckers in this white house...

we fight ..but finally it is heard...and for that i cry...

i cry for those, whose bones were left in a pit in Ny .and under roads ..and used for pot holes..those were my co-workers ..those were my neighbors kids..i want to scream when i see giuliani on any tv..smiling..i want to personally slap the smile off his mother fucking face..i have such hate for that man!!

.i cry for those who put our uniform on and trusted..i cry for those who tried to expose these mother fuckers who died trying to show us the way..

i cry for those in a country that has been left in rubble ..for no god damned reason but greed..

i am tired of crying..i want action..i want impeachment of these mother fuckers and i want it now..

i want accountability!

i want to put the cuffs on those mother fuckers myself..and i would gladly pull a switch to close a prison door on them for the rest of their natural lives!

we have been on a long journey dear OMMM..but it will not be complete without accountability.

I am tired..i am tired of waiting for someone to have the fucking guts or balls or whatever..let me do it..i have the balls and i have the guts.

i would gladly stand in front of pelosi and say..do it now or leave!

get out of our way..we are taking our country back ..with or without you.

sending love..fly

[malaise]

90. Lovely post

Do it now or leave. It may come to that. I hope not but the people will not take this much longer.

[flyarm]

97. i called pelosi's office this week and i said just that to her person on the phone..

as i type with tears on my keyboard..i am tired of the tears..i am tired..just tired..

i have spent more time up all night fighting for this nation of mine..

i was up for 3 nights this week working with 9/11 pilots for truth ..

i have run as a delegate and won..i have done speech after speech ..to wake americans up..but so many others have done it too..what do we have to do to make our representatives represent us??????

i am tired of calling..

i am just tired.

i am tired of the excuses.

i am damn tired of all the damn lies!

fly

[malaise]

99. Keep fighting Flyarm

the people eventually win when we fight.

[flyarm]

104. I will, i don't know any other way!! ..

i just don't know any other way..

there are angels on my shoulders ..that will not let me rest ..until we get answers for why they were allowed to die on 9/11!!

flyO8)

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

107. Oh dear fly, this journey seems monumental.

Your post is Beautiful!

From well before this war we have been trying to get the truth out there and finally people are waking up. I've had an Impeach Bush bumper sticker now on my car for 3 years and way too slowly the I word is creeping out into the open. Jack Cafferty even asked today for one of his questions how people feel about Pelosi saying that Impeachment was off the table! There is movement yes, the problem is, as the program states, members of Congress don't have a clue about the Constitution. Isn't that insanity? When they take the oath of office and swear to uphold the Constitution, most are swearing to uphold something they haven't a clue about.
So on Monday I will once again contact my Reps and this time implore them to watch the video and to implore them to do their duty. The Constitution above politics! I think Conyers has to be contacted. Impeachment begins in the Judiciary Committee.
When I wrote to thank Moyers for the program, I also wrote that this is The Most Important thing that has to be dealt with. More important than getting out of Iraq. Our country's soul is at stake and we have to bring that soul back to a moral center.
I love you fly,
sweet dreams :hug:

[flyarm]

112. remember when i said, when i was at the convention and i spoke to congress people

the stuff we know...and have known and they were clueless...

at the time i was blown away..now nothing surprises me..nothing...

i have not one ounce of doubt ..that many of them are totally clueless to the constitution..most people here and on the street know more than a whole shit load of of them..of that i have not one ounce of doubt!!

You know that..we have made this journey ...

oh yes sweet lady ..we have had a long ride ..but the journey will not be complete until we get accountability and truth!

we need a lunch in the city soon!!..i need a TOTG..fix!!

and i need to join arms with you..AGAIN.. for a walk in CENTRAL PARK!!

LETS..IN SEPT!!

:hug: :hug: :hug:

FLY

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

124. Good morning sweetie and how could I forget what you told me about the convention?

I also remember your talking to Robert Menendez when he was a Congressman, before he became Senator!

And It's a Date!!!!!!
:hug::hug::hug:
:loveya:

[malaise]

68. Hope you're recording

to show others

[flyarm]

89. i don't have a recorder in my summer home. eom

[rodeodance]

62. poll on pbs website:--about civil liberaties

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2007/07/poll_civil_liberties_and_natio_1.html

Statement: During a time of war, the government should take any means necessary to ensure national security. Do you:
3%
Agree. Safety of the nation as a whole takes precedence over individual civil liberties.
73%
Disagree, nothing diminishes the importance of protecting our civil liberties.
23%
Depends on the situation at hand.
Total: 1272

[malaise]

72. Going well

Statement: During a time of war, the government should take any means necessary to ensure national security. Do you:
3% Agree. Safety of the nation as a whole takes precedence over individual civil liberties.
73% Disagree, nothing diminishes the importance of protecting our civil liberties.
23% Depends on the situation at hand.
Total: 1320

[rodeodance]

63. Congress should be shamed into doing their duty!!

[babylonsister]

65. Every last Congresscritter, Dem or rethug; are you watching? nt

[rodeodance]

70. Well, folks--------I am blown over. This was great!

[rodeodance]

71. Constitutional scholar, Bruce Fein states:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2007/07/poll_civil_liberties_and_natio_1.html

Constitutional scholar, Bruce Fein states:

“Most important thing for the American people to know is that the great genius of the founding fathers, their revolutionary idea, with the chief mission of the state is to make you and them free to pursue their ambitions and faculties. Not to build empires, not to aggrandize government. That's the mission of the state, to make them free, chart their own destiny. And the burden is on the government to try to understand why that freedom has to be curtailed for a security purpose or otherwise.”

[Decruiter]

74. This program should be required viewing for every elected official we have!

This is it!

[malaise]

77. Every citizen should watch it

An educational discussion - damn how rare are these.

[RedEarth]

75. Impeachment article from Moyers website........

Bill Moyers guests' Bruce Fein and John Nichols view impeachment as an essential component to our constitutional checks and balances on power. Fein wrote the first article of impeachment against President Clinton because perjury is a legal crime and Fein believed no one is above the law. John Nichols has just published a history of the process in the U.S.: THE GENIUS OF IMPEACHMENT: THE FOUNDERS' CURE FOR ROYALISM.
The process of impeachment can be traced back as far as 1376, when the First Speaker of the English House of Commons, Peter de la Mare, initiated impeachment and removal proceedings against Lord William Latimer, for raiding the public treasury for personal enrichment.

Alexander Hamilton, in Federalist 65, "borrowed" the process of impeachment from the British, noting it to be a "method of national inquest into the conduct of public men." However, the founding fathers were not about to completely copy the British; they needed to adapt impeachment proceedings to the American governing system.

After much debate, it was finally agreed that the Senate would act as the court of impeachment, as some feared that the Supreme Court and other courts are two small to handle such a trial and could be susceptible to corruption; it was also agreed that impeachable offenses must fall under "treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors."

The process of impeachment was set in stone in the Constitution in two separate amendments by the First Congress. Article I establishes "the House of Representatives...shall have the sole Power of Impeachment," and "the Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments." Article I further establishes the parameters of punishment, as well as the proceedings specific to an impeachment proceeding against the President of the United States. Article II specifically outlines the parameters for impeachment against executive branch officials, including the President and Vice President.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07132007/impeachment.html

[malaise]

94. Thanks for that n/t

[rodeodance]

76. write a THank you to bill here:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/about/feedback.html

[malaise]

78. Done n/t

[rodeodance]

83. I wish I knew how to get Pelosi to watch this.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

91. Thanks for the link! Done and I added in my message to Moyers the link for this

thread!!!!! :)

[lyonn]

105. Also sent msg., and just as soon as it was sent

thought this site should have been mentioned. Glad you did.

[RedEarth]

82. Moyers website....... Bruce Fein on Signing Statements......

July 13, 2007

Bruce Fein, part of this week's panel on impeachment, recently testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee about the constitutional implications of presidential signing statements.

Often under the radar, these statements are beginning to gain attention, as scholars and critics debate their effect on constitutional checks and balances. How much do you know about signing statements?


What is a signing statement?

When signing a bill, the President often issues a written comment about how he interprets the bill and how he plans to execute it. Many statements are straightforward, simply expressing the President's opinions about the specific legislation.

Yet others are more controversial, when they dictate which portions of a bill the President decides he will not execute because he believes they infringe on the executive powers granted in the Constitution.

........

President Bush and the Growth of the Executive

President Bush has issued over 108 signing statements, which mostly remain unreported until early 2006, when the President issued a statement in conjunction with his signing of a torture statute, pushed through by Senator John McCain. After signing the statute, which was crafted in order to make illegal approved torture by the executive branch, President Bush wrote the following statement:

"The executive branch shall construe Title X in Division A of the Act, relating to detainees, in a manner consistent with the Constitutional authority of the President to supervise the unitary executive branch and as Commander-in-Chief and consistent with the Constitutional limitations on the judicial power which will assist in achieving the shared objective of the Congress and the President, evidenced in Title X, of protecting the American people from further terrorist attacks."

President Bush has most often asserted his deemed constitutional duty "to supervise the unitary executive," as reason why his Administration has chosen not to execute a specific aspect of a law.

As Bruce Fein explained before the Senate Judiciary Committee:

"If all other avenues have proved unavailing, Congress should contemplate impeachment for signing statements that systematically flout the separation of powers and legislative prerogatives. The epitome of an impeachable offense, as Alexander Hamilton amplified in the Federalist Papers, is a political crime against the Constitution."

Click here to read many of President Bush's recent signing statements.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07132007/signing_statements.html

[TahitiNut]

92. REMEMBER: Bruce Fein is a conservative's conservative

While he sure will be smeared and demeaned by the neoconservatives and corporatists, this is NOT A LIBERAL. He's a conservative with only very slight libertarian leanings. Mr. Fein has been an adjunct scholar with the American Enterprise Institute, a resident scholar at the Heritage Foundation, a lecturer at the Bookings Institute, and an adjunct professor at George Washington University. He was an associate deputy attorney general under Ronald Reagan. He writes weekly columns for The Washington ("Moonie") Times.

Let me STRONGLY suggest that Mr. Fein's GREATEST fear is that a liberal President - more liberal than Hillary, of course - will inherit the same powers that've been assumed (via a coup) by Smirk and SNeer.

[malaise]

96. That was clear but his overall message was way more important

We should all fear any President who violates the constitution.

[TahitiNut]

101. Oh... don't get me wrong. He's not said a single word on this show with which I disagree.

I absolutely agree with him on this ... and have for YEARS. I'm a fan of impeachemnt. I'd like to see it used often - for a variety of offices, including the SUpreme Court. I would've had a little problem if Clinton had been impeached. After all, I regard Gore as SLIGHTLY more liberal.

[malaise]

103. Here's Barbara Jordan's statement on impeachment

delivered 25 July 1974, House Judiciary Committee
http://americanrhetoric.com/speeches/barbarajordanjudiciarystatement.htm

[Poiuyt]

93. Every member of Congress should be forced to watch this program!

[lyonn]

111. The sad part of your comment is that Congress should already

know the jeopardy that our country is in under the destruction of our protections set-out in the Constitution.

[KharmaTrain]

106. Times And Situations Change

In January, when Pelosi made that statement, look at where we were and what we had to go on. The Libby case hadn't even been tried, few, if any people were paying attention to the recent US Attorney firings and Pelosi had 100 hours worth of legislation...12 years worth of very needed bills...that she felt were more important than focusing on what was surely seen at that point as a political vendetta.

Times have changed, and I suggest that Pelosi is changing too...but let's be pragmatic about what can be accomplished. Yes, boooosh and cheney need to be impeached...as well as criminally prosecuted and to have their ultimate judgement decided in the World Court. But I want a certain impeachment and conviction.

While a conviction of both war criminals is all but impossible right now, there is one that should be done, is do-able and would break the spirit and open the spigot to many more crimes...Impeaching Gonzo! He's been at Ground Zero, literally, for some of the most major crimes committed and his impeachment can be based on real crimes, based on solid constitutional grounds and would get a lot more popular support...negating the corporate media's non-stop attack on anyone who tries to cross the evil empire.

Unfortunately to get to impeachment, one faces a Constitutional crisis. I enjoy listening to Mr. Fein, John Dean, Jon Turley and other Constitutional experts on the high stakes game going on here. They speak in a very Constitutional and legal sense...unfortunately they don't speak in the political sense...and that's what's damn frustrating.

Instead of a jury of peers, impeachment is a literal kangeroo court. Almost half the jurors are owned by the defendant and the burden of proof is tossed out the window. The same goon who thought lying about a sleezy blowjob is worthy of impeachment, now thinks this is some political "lynching" or some other sanctimonious position. Others play weathervane...more concerned with their careers and donors than the truth and the Constitution. This is what frustrated me no end. But this is the system we have.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

108. Did you watch the program? eom

[KharmaTrain]

109. It Hasn't Played Yet In Chicago...

I do plan to watch it tomorrow.

Moyers is on my DVR...every week.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

110. Please watch it and then respond. It will blow you away. :)

:hi:

[KharmaTrain]

115. Thank You...

Please understand, I'd love to see this cabal impeached...it's never been off my table.

Have you read Senator Feingold's diary at DKos?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/13/141751/474

Let's definitely keep discussing. We make each others lives and common causes stronger that way.

:toast:

[DianaForRussFeingold]

117. Thank you! He is my inspiration and hope

I have a feeling he was watching this program! ;-) You can tell he really loves the Constitution :hug:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

125. Your welcome and here is the link to the video of the program thanks to Hissyspit!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1332753

I will take a look at Russ' blog now. Please understand I love Russ but his last position in regard to Impeachment is just plain wrong. Once you view this video, I think you'll understand!

:toast: :hi:

[DianaForRussFeingold]

114. K&R a great program for everyone who Can save our constitution

:hug: I have waited so long for this discussion on TV !!! :cry: “Most important thing for the American people to know is that the great genius of the founding fathers, their revolutionary idea, with the chief mission of the state is to make you and them free to pursue their ambitions and faculties. Not to build empires, not to aggrandize government. That's the mission of the state, to make them free, chart their own destiny. And the burden is on the government to try to understand why that freedom has to be curtailed for a security purpose or otherwise.” :patriot: Thank you Bill Moyers for your great journalism :patriot: http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2007/07/poll_civil_liberties_and_natio_1.html poll 75%

nothing diminishes the importance of protecting our civil liberties. 75%




:grouphug:


http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2007/07/poll_civil_liberties_and_natio_1.html Some great comments :applause:

[mzmolly]

118. It was great. I am sure she'll follow what the will of the people dictates.

I found it interesting that they felt the Libby pardon was the "straw" that broke the camels back?

[malaise]

121. It was for many people

Great program.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

123. Nichols said that it was straw that brought the dialogue into the open but from the transcript

OHN NICHOLS: You-- we're at this table because the fact of the matter is that impeachment has moved well up the list of things we can talk about because of the Scooter Libby affair. Now, should it be the-- one that tipped it? I think Bruce and I would probably both agree no. There are probably more important issues. But the Scooter Libby affair gets to the heart of what I think an awfully lot of Americans are concerned about with this administration and with the executive branch in-- general, that it is lawless, that-- it can rewrite the rules for itself, that it can protect itself.

It was very obvious that they wanted Impeachment before Libby's commutation, and the will of the people doesn't really matter. The people have to be given a civics lesson as to why Impeachment is imperitive in order to save our system of government and the Constitution.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07132007/transcript4.html

[malaise]

127. Yes Libby wsa the straw that broke

the camel's back

[mzmolly]

130. Right, they also drew comparisons tbetween the Libby case and Clintons impeachment.

Which I thought was interesting.

I agree we need a civics lesson as to why impeachment is needed. BUT, I don't think we can confuse impeachment with ending the war. Impeachment is not "removal" and that's our expectations as a people have to be realistic.

[AntiFascist]

119. K&R, there were also excellent reasons given for Republicans to also support impeachment:

If Bush and Cheney are allowed to get away with what they are doing then it will be like adding a lot of limitless powers to the toolbox of future presidents (paraphrasing). Impeachment will place proper constitutional limits on these powers with proper oversight, otherwise future Democratic or Republican presidents could also act as dictators and lying propagandists (just saying).

[Senator]

120. K&R

[malaise]

122. Video here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1332753

[Donald Ian Rankin]

126. Impeachment would be off the table even if every single Democrat wanted it there.

If she chose to, Pelosi could put impeachment *procedings* on the table, but they would be inevitably doomed to failure and probably hurt the Dems more than the GOP.

Impeachment, however, isn't merely off the table, it's not even in the larder.

67 > 51. This is a simple piece of maths an astounding number of DUers appear to be unable to understand.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

128. Removal is not the point. The process is the point. Please watch the program. The link is here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1332753

[FredStembottom]

131. You don't skip the prosecution of a criminal because

the jury seems inclined to toward acquitting him BEFORE the trial.

No vote count before the impeachment process has begun means anything.

Especially when it seems clear that the impeachment process in this case will display the worst constitutional crimes ever committed. Not to mention actual war crimes.

The process will make supporting the administration a suicide pact. A vote against impeachment will be a vote for child rape (at Abu Graib) etc.

Besides, what Republican wants to hand over the Bush/Cheney "toolbox" of royal powers to a Clinton/Obama/Edwards/Kucinich?

[malaise]

134. Good post

It's all about the process. Time to start the proceedings.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

143. Yes, you do!

Thank you very much indeed for that analogy with criminal prosecution - it strongly supports my case. A prosecution service will bring a case when they think there's a chance of a conviction.

[FredStembottom]

145. And there is a chance of impeachment here. A good one!

After the process has begun and the depravity is revealed to all, voting "no" on impeachment becomes the same as voting "yes" to the kind of shocking behavior now coming out in reports such as the "50 soldiers" interviews in The Nation this month.

I think it would be easy to shock and embarrass the required number of votes out of Congress. No=Yes (to child sodomy, rape and sadism in Iraq).

Counting imaginary votes now and thereby concluding to do nothing just gives cover and further enables the depravity!

I, for one, will not provide that cover!

Should Pelosi?

Should you?

[TahitiNut]

136. You condescendingly smear those DUers with whom you disagree, yet ...

... there's no indication whatsoever that you've viewed the Bill Moyers Journal to which this thread is addressed, the stances taken by Bruce Fein who appears on the program, or the valid, principled posts that've repeatedly been made on DU regarding the ethical principles involved, including this one. The posture you (and others) take is simultaneously one of prescient arrogance and authoritarian abdication - appalling in times like this, imho.

[Pacifist Patriot]

132. One of the few times those of us who do not watch television miss out.

Wonder how I can get a copy.

[malaise]

135. You can watch the entire program

on the PBS website. We have links on this thread.

[kiteinthewind]

137. Amen!!

[Highway61]

138. Does anyone else wonder what happened?

WHY Pelosi said it was "off the table"? There are a LOT of folks in high places who have softened....what are they AFRAID of? There is obviously so much more to this administration than any of us could possibly comprehend and they may know just enough to be terrified. I mean, things are SOOOOOO bad, In my wildest dreams I never thought it could get as bad as it is and hear we are. Yet...the outrage at the congressional level I would think would be at 99% and it's not. Very scary, that's all.

[BenDavid]

139. It is a waste of time and it will

give the repugs something to sham over the heads of our candidates...You show me something other then a blow job that is worthy of impeachment and then show me what dems right now would vote to impeach bush in the senate and then show me the repubs that will vote for impeachment and then maybe I will get on board.....Hell, you first got to get it out of the House and I do not believe there are the votes even in that chamber..

I do thank you
Ben David

[DKRC]

140. 74% Agree now nt

[Hubert Flottz]

141. I watched it and it told me I'd been right since November.

We need the "Cure" ASAP!

[Hubert Flottz]

142. Kick the criminals out of Washington...

Kick! :kick:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

144. Impeachment Is NOT The Cure For A Constitutional Crisis.

SUCCESSFUL impeachment could be.

But we won't have that here. Ain't even close. Ain't gonna happen.

Therefore, the entire 'protect the constitution! Impeachment is the cure!' spouting at the mouth is nothing but feel good rhetoric with no basis in reality whatsoever.

Impeachment as a process is not necessarily a cure for a damn thing, if not successful. In fact, it can even serve to make things worse.

So it is quite misguided and ignorant of a premise that impeachment is the cure, when there's no possible way the impeachment would succeed. And yes, that's a pretty goddamn important detail.