Listening to Randi, OMG, she's telling soldiers to not obey orders

[Cleita]

to deploy. It's not that I don't agree with her, I do, but that is really ballsey of her. The only reason the Bush administration has any power is because of the military. If there is no army, Bush has no power. She's saying get court martialed, go to jail because at least they will come out of it alive.

[The Straight Story]

1. uh oh...you said ballsey

:popcorn:

[Cleita]

4. And as a figure of speech, what is wrong with that?

[Kare]

5. Nothing...

Randi has a brass pair

[wicket]

84. Of ovaries?

:P

[The Straight Story]

7. give it time on the thread, and you will see :)

Me, I think it is A-OK.

[The Straight Story]

14. Ah - here we go, a DU classic :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=3096557

[originalpckelly]

16. OK, ovarysey!

:rofl:

[Bucky]

20. Ovaricious! Wombtastic!

"Fallopiamanic"?

[Jim Sagle]

48. Vaginalicious?

[devilgrrl]

2. I wish generals etc... would stop obeying the White House.

eom

[Kare]

3. And we could help them

once the pretzeldent is out of office.... They could all be freed (if they were jailed).
If enough servicemen(and women) did that how could the lock up the whole army without creating a stir?

[Cleita]

6. If they are going to court martial anyone for disobeying orders,

they should start with George Bush.

[Perky]

12. I don't.

Look I want us out of Iraq, but if you have a breakdown between the Commander in Chief anf the general its an eyelash away from a coup de tat. Maybe thatg work in this instance...but what if a Dem sees compelling interest to go into the DPRK and the Generals say no?


If their is no civillian control of the military then all bets are off.

[Cleita]

18. You have to listen to her case. She's stating that soldiers don't

have to obey a madman. The conditions over there are so bad because he is clueless and doesn't care because he's crazy. She's says no one has a duty to sacrifice their lives over nothing.

[teriyaki jones]

37. Don't know if you've noticed, but we've already had a coup d'etat

It's called the Bush administration!

Seriously, the selection of the pResident in 2000 and every piece of bullshit that has followed is nothing less than a silent coup.

IMHO

tj

[followthemoney]

47. Will the world end with an act of disobedience or an act of obedience?

No suicide pacts, please.

[mod mom]

53. Um...I believe it was a coup d'etat in 2000 that brought this regime to power.

It's time to stand up for the truth and expose the whole truth. I'm sick that this illegitimate pResident is making such serious decisions ( Iraq/Iran, global warming, choosing Supreme Court Judges, habeus corpus, and torture come to mind) when he was never elected by the people.

[mopinko]

71. it's not a coup. it's taking the f'ing nuremburg principles seriously

as in fucking international law. saying, "sir, no sir, i do not believe that is a proper and legal order, i am not going to obey it", is not in any way, shape or form a coup.

[Perky]

83. Proper and legal

Has to be more than jut disagreeing with policy. If ask to troture...you can refuse. If asked to massacre civillians of course. But to refuse to patrol Sadr city orresues to engage AlQuada In Iraq in in Al Anbar province?

[mopinko]

85. how about refuse to go, period?!

[Perky]

89. If they refuse to deploy then I guess they need to be ready

to spend some time at Fort Leavenworth. Not ssaying I disgree with the sentiment. But if you signed up as a volunteer, knowing there was a huge chance you would be spending time in Iraq and hen refuse to go becuase of the President's policies, you ought to be locked up.

That is not so much about this war as it is about duty and honor.

There are principles involved to be sure. But they volunteered. If the pricinple is strong enough to be willing to face court-martial charges of either desertion or dereliction of duty...go for it.

[malaise]

8. Muhammad Ali did that

decades ago. About time.

[Cleita]

21. Did he do time? I don't remember.

I do know that today, he is considered heroic.

[malaise]

26. Yes and lost his title in the process

He refused to enlist and served his time - three years I think. When he was released the entire country was anti-war and he was the biggest hero and not just in the US.

Yes 49 - Nays 47. Motion not agreed to.
Harry Reid enters a motion to reconsider the vote.

[followthemoney]

45. Ali did no time, but fought outside of the U.S. during his appeal of his conviction...

for refusing induction.

The Supreme Court reversed his conviction in 1971.

[Sydnie]

9. Court martial proceedings begin today against Army Lt. Ehran Watada

in Fort Lewis, Washington. On June 22, 2006, Watada stepped forward as the first commissioned officer publicly to refuse deployment to the Iraq War. He faces up to 5 years imprisonment if found guilty.

I am sure that is why she picked today to make that statement, although I admit that I am not listening to her at the moment.

More info here - http://www.thankyoult.org/

[Cleita]

15. You are absolutely right. She started the show with Watada

and segued into this.

[DearAbby]

10. I have been thinking that for some time

"Sir! No Sir!" I would support any soldier, respectfully refuse to obey a immoral or unconstitutional order. It is their duty.

[followthemoney]

46. Support the Troops. No, really. Support their acts of conscience.

Support their humanity. The troops were actually supported in the sixties. At least those who could tell right from wrong and chose to act on it. Hell, even the murderers were supported. Just by a different crowd.

[sam sarrha]

11. they are going to house the surge soldiers in Iraqi police stations in 'Neighborhoods', it will be

slaughter..

[shadowknows69]

13. We should be protestin in front of bases by the thousands

offering soliders sanctuary that leave. Or Someone should get some anti-war (IE Jesus' teachings) churches to offer AWOL soldiers sanctuary, that would make the religious right put up or shut up about this conflict pretty quickly.

[Bucky]

17. This will NOT win us votes. This will NOT stop the surge. This will NOT build our case.

This is a bad idea. I know people are frustrated, but this notion will only get Air America ignored by potential allies and could threaten the Democrats' ability to build a generational majority. Stopping the war is our job. Don't put it that responsibility on the troops, too.

[Cleita]

19. Oh sure it will. You obviously didn't hear the soldier back from

Iraq who not only agreed with her but added to it.

[Bucky]

27. Asking the military to interfere in politics is *always* dangerous.

One reason we've had 220 years of uninterrupted democracy is because the military acceeds to civilian commands. That is not the case in most countries in the world and it is not a precedent to be fucked with. This is a very slippery slope, as slippery as the Patriot Act or Gitmo or the military tribunals for presidentially declared "terrorists" and all the other unconstitutional shit Bush's puppetfisters have been concocting. .

This is a really bad idea. I don't doubt that the soldier on her show likes this. It's a very seductive idea. It's still Constitutional poison and horriblly negative PR to millions of swingable voters who are realizing how fucked up neoconism is. We need to return to the rule of law, not delve deeper into Bush's illegal swamp.

[Cleita]

29. Since there are no other ideas out there, we can't go on

forever with this idiocy like we did Vietnam.

[Bucky]

36. There are other ideas and the Congress is working to curtail the president's recklessness

It's just not going to happen immediately. It will happen soon. But undercutting support for the antiwar efforts among moderates won't help our cause.

[Guaranteed]

81. Idea: Win the presidency in 2008. nt

[kestrel91316]

42. This isn't the military interfering in politics. This is passive

resistance, civil disobedience, of the highest order.

"No, sir, you CAN'T force me to fight in an illegal war. I will refuse to participate. Punish me as you see fit. I will not fight it."

[Bucky]

44. As Gandhi pointed out, nonviolent resistance is anything but passive

There's a whole special set of military laws Randi is asking these soldiers to break. That a pro-active interference in military operations. It's not passive at all.

If the Marines had told Carter "No, we will not fly into Iran to rescue the hostages," how would you feel? If the Air Force told Clinton "No, we will not bomb Serbian troops trying to ethnically cleanse Kosovo" or the Navy told Kennedy "No, we will not interdict those Soviet tankers," how would you feel?

I don't like the war and you don't like the war. I think we as a country will probably face a terrible reckoning for this blunder. But the military simply cannot pick and choose what orders it wants to follow.

[femmedem]

49. I respectfully disagree.

Troops have both a moral and legal obligation not to commit war crimes, even if they were ordered to do so. Preemptive, aggressive wars are illegal under international law.

[kestrel91316]

86. Nuremberg says the military has a DUTY to disobey illegal orders

or face blame for their acts as individuals.

Whether or not this can or should apply in the case of Iraq is subject to debate. Too bad Watada's trial is not going to be able to provide a forum for this due to some ruling by the judge.

[Egalitarian]

55. It is the rule of law that Watada is contesting is it not?

[followthemoney]

63. "220 years of uninterrupted democracy" fairy tale

You must have blinked and missed that Bush was awarded the presidency in 2000. That was not democratic in any sense of the word.

[knight_of_the_star]

66. Not the same thing

It's one thing to urge mutiny or disobedience, it's another to urge soldiers to remember that part of their oath of service is that they have an obligation not to obey any immoral or unconstitutional order.

[Arkham House]

22. What about Iran?

Does the military have an obligation *not* to obey orders to launch a war of aggression against a country that doesn't threaten us? They managed to do so in Iraq, because they lied and we were still reeling from 9/11. But now? The whole world knows we're lying about Iran...should anyone be urging the troops to refuse? I genuinely don't know the answer to this...

[Cleita]

23. This is about Iran as well. No army no Iran unless they hire

mercenaries. It's the only way they could do it if most enlisted men refuse to take part in an unjust war.

[Bucky]

35. First off, there's not going to be an attack on Iran. Second off, I share your confusion on this.

The job of stopping the saber rattling at Iran is ours and the Democratic Congress's. It's almost certainly going to be halted. Bush can't possibly just up and attack them. Iraq's government itself is moving to prevent this by their calls to expel all foreign nationals.

Bush has far less power than he realizes, but is in the process of finding out. His (or rather Cheney's) efforts to goad Iran into attacking first isn't going to work, which is the only way they can plausibly do airstrikes on Iran without losing the whole region in a year long bloodbath (and more importantly a weeklong petroleum bath).

The military should never ever fail to follow a legal order. Obnoxious and unwise as it is, an attack on Iran would almost certainly be arranged to have a bare figleaf of legality to it. It's bad policy, but not illegal.

[shadowknows69]

51. Bush can't possibly just up and attack them.

Man, no offense but, where the hell have you been? We just bombed somalia for gods sakes, I don't remember there being any congressional approval for that one. GW will attack Iran. The soldiers know it. Most anyone who has been listening knows it.

[Palladin]

58. Multiple Congressmen

including Peter DeFazio and Ron Paul have already put Bush on notice that a preemptive attack on Iran will be in fact illegal, and
unConstitutional. It will be grounds for immediate impeachment - but it will be much too late by then. The military officers take their oath to the Constitution - not to the Commander in Chief. Enlisted mens' oaths include the C-in-C, but they in turn will be taking orders from their superior officers. This C-in-C is an incompetent, subverted, deluded fool, and everybody, including the military officers and enlisted, knows it. He needs to be neutered, for the good of the country and the world. It is no crime to remind the military officers of the former United States that their oath is to the Constitution, alone. That argument will be the basis of Lt. Watada's appeal. That and the precedent of the Nuremberg trials.

Congress, the judiciary, and the military need to enforce the Constitution. Too bad only the loyal military has the courage to do so - but they do care about Duty, Honor, and Country. We can be certain that Lt. Watada believes in this code. Bush/Cheney/neocons have a Louis XIV mentality - L'etat, c'est moi. I'm the Decider, and such rot. It is not so unless we allow it. This issue is the most important facing all citizens of the former United States today; we could not prevent the illegal, immoral, unnecessary, and unjust attack on Iraq, but the attack on Iran - which the military know would be catastrophic to this country - can be prevented, with the military's passive help and upholding of the Constitution. We haven't crossed the Rubicon yet.

[followthemoney]

67. Multiprong attack on this problem. You stop Bush and the soldiers can stop the war

the best they can. Your way hasn't been working very well. Unlike Bush, we should have a plan B.

[kestrel91316]

41. We all need to SHARE in stopping the war. Everybody needs to

do what they, in their circumstances, can do.

[followthemoney]

50. Yes, always consider the votes. Never take a moral position without ...

considering the implications for the party. Speak in guarded terms. Try to remain ambiguous. For God's sake, don't ever take a stand that you are not prepared to wriggle and spin your way out of.

Be afraid, but project bravery. You can fool everybody. No one can see through that, can they? Can they?

[Guaranteed]

80. Encouraging disloyalty in our military, en masse, is not a moral position.

The moral position is to change the policy and hold our civilian leaders accountable. It is not a soldier's job to even have to THINK about this kind of thing.

[Guaranteed]

79. Yup. It's stupid.

It's just anger, no thinking.

We're starting to get that level of power back, now, where we think we can just go around and act like idiots and there won't be consequences.

It sure didn't take long to get back to the mentality of the mid-90's where people didn't stop to think how grating the ultra-PC propaganda would be on the ear of the public. The backlash hit us hard. Now this crap. This is downright careless.

"Don't go back" is the kind of thing you tell a family member or a close friend. It isn't a policy position for a radio host or a platform for a Congressperson.

[LSK]

24. Randi has not been pulling any punches lately

I wonder if it has to do with AARs new ownership?

[Cleita]

25. Yes, and why is it the women who speak truth to power while

the men stop short of it?

[LSK]

28. gender has nothing to do with it, see Mike Malloy

[Cleita]

30. Has Mike Malloy said to disobey orders?

I haven't heard him say so, but I couldn't listen last week.

[LSK]

38. Malloy didnt get fired from AAR?

:shrug:

[Bonescrat]

54. Malloy is on Nova M now... nt

[Sydnie]

32. At the risk of getting flamed

because we carry the babies, we have a biological time limit on the years in which we can carry babies (although science is stretching that now), thus, limiting the number of babies that we can ultimately have in a lifetime. Men can impregnate as many women as they can convince to have sex, since they have no natural biological boundaries (as in an occupied womb for 9 months at a time) between each possible pregnancy they can contribute to. The daily talk shows (such as the Maury show) prove that every day with their "Three women say I'm their baby daddy, but their's all nuts" type shows. JMHO of course.

WE must save the species, one family, one child at a time.

[uppityperson]

31. good. k&r

[CBGLuthier]

33. WHat the hell is ballsy about that?

She will not go to jail. She will face no punishment. While I too agree with the sentiment I find nothing particularly courageous about a talk show host advocating this.

Now if she said we should march on Washington and burn the motherfucker down, that would be ballsy.

[AnOhioan]

34. Heard her on the way from work.....

I will admit, I was pretty surprised she was going as far as she did. Cannot say I disagree with her.

[symbolman]

39. I've been saying this for years

ALL of the troops need to shoulder their weapons and move/march/drive to the nearest airport/seaport to be REMOVED FROM THE AREA.

REFUSE. I DID IT, after three years of Air Force which I chose after being drafted during Nam, I Gave my TWO WEEKS NOTICE and QUIT.

They'd created a monster as I knew the REGS by heart and used their own REGS against them. Wore no hat, the most wrinkled uniform I could find from the bottom of my bag, saluted like Monty Python, and only showed up for work ONE HOUR a day, so technically I was NOT considered AWOL and could not be arrested and jailed.

It drove the base commander fucking NUTS. I HAD THEM, nothing they could do. Other troops began to emulate what I was doing, and the base was going to hell - so I was called into the Base Commander's office and asked WHAT I WANTED. Like I said, I HAD THEM :)

Told them I wanted OUT on a college deferment, early release program (as per their rules, with no intention of going to college), with an HONORABLE Discharge as I HAD served my country for Most of my enlistement, and with honor.

They told me that if I stuck to the Regs, cleaned up and acted like a true Military Man, clean uniform, salute,etc- in order to STOP the Mutiny of the other troops, they'd give me what I wanted.

I GOT THE HELL OUT, and Got that treasured HONORABLE Discharge, which I earned. Plus the War was over anyway, there was no point to my being there.

So I know FIRST HAND that it WILL WORK, it was Civil Disobediance and I WON. :)

[VP505]

52. Were you the

Air Force version of Corporal Klinger?

[symbolman]

59. Naw

No dress, just a wish to get out of an outfit when a stupid war was over, the place had filled up with Ghetto Rats due to an all volunteer force, and I'd worked like a dog doing a job that would have paid me hundreds of thousands in the private sector. :)

[cherokeeprogressive]

56. Honorable

The most wrinkled uniform you could find? Worked for ONE hour a day? I don't see much honorable about that. Not much at all.

[symbolman]

60. Graduated second in my class

in Technical Training as a Purchasing agent, and put in three STERLING years + supporting the troops, buying everything they needed for battle, wasn't sent to Nam as my brother was there, and two surviving sons cannot be sent into a war zone.

Yeah, I served with Honor and distinction, having been drafted, and fought for my country. I was doing a Job, working LONG hours all those years that would have paid me hundreds of thousands of dollars in the private sector. Within two years my Rank was only one stripe away from my own Brother's rank, and he'd been in for 14 years. THey don't just give those stripes away, Bub. I earned them.

How I got out is my business, and using civil disobediance, after having been conscripted during another FAKE 'war' was a brilliant stroke, and it was spreading, scared them. I only wish the troops would use my technique right now, and say FUCK YOU to Bush's ILLEGAL ORDERS.

Did you go throught boot camp? Vietnam? Three plus years in a bullshit war is plenty.

Or as Bush says, "Who cares what you think?" :)

Oh, and after I got out I took a job at a Veterans Hospital, with duties that included getting vets to medical help, all 300 of my patients, who had gone insane due to the 'war'.

So I did my time, either way, and ALL of it was honorable.

[BeHereNow]

61. Rock on Symbolman....

BHN:loveya:
In the words of Dr Suess-
Those who mind don't matter
Those who matter don't mind.

:yourock:

[symbolman]

64. Have I told you I loved you today?

Have you HUGGED YOUR BeHereNow today folks?

Thanks so much, I've been a bad boy at times, but when I'm good, I'm very, very good :)

No, YOU ROCK! :)

PS. We purchased one of Suess's Sculptures (a copy, limited edition) for our wall a few years ago, called a "Druberhannis" :)

[BeHereNow]

68. Why no, you have not...so thank you!

Would love to see a picture of the sculpture...
Hint, hint...
BHN:hug:

[symbolman]

75. Here's a link

They're sold out, we were one of the lucky ones, it is a favorite apparently

http://www.expressobeans.com/public/detail.php/32201/wanted

Click on the pic to see it.

Now THIS is a 'Kill' hanging on the wall that I don't mind :)

[followthemoney]

62. I salute you sir. I am a vet too.

[symbolman]

76. Thanks my friend

I salute you back, we've got plenty to be proud of, and protesting is the very same right that both we and our forefathers fought and died for, eh?

I guess that would include being drafted during a bullshit war, at least I tried to help as much as I could afterwards as well :)

Thanks for serving, it's appreciated, by more people than you know :)

[bpeale]

40. it's not even just that

but they can't put EVERYONE in jail. we don't have enough jails for that ... military or civilian. i think the military should do just that. we americans have to support them if they do however, not like we turned our backs on the vietnam vets who did so.

[not_a_robot]

43. Hmmm

It's nice to see people talking about this now. I hope it's voiced by more. Without those who act on ethics the henchmen will rule everything for their master. I know people who only think in terms of winning at all cost have no issues with telling people to be shipped of to another country to die or murder people, but you know, some people think that's wrong.

[followthemoney]

70. The sooner we get over the "Support the troops" propaganda the better.

"Support the troops" never been anything but an emotional ploy to keep people from thinking clearly about what is going on.

Bush was not elected president.

Bush violated international law and lied us into an illegal war.

Bush has shipped a lot of good people to Iraq and abandoned them there for political purposes. The troops have never been supported by this idiot pretender to the presidency.

[sakabatou]

57. Woah...

O_O

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. Good.

I'd be willing to help any such soldier in any way I can.

[Katherine Brengle]

69. Problem is, there are real life consequences to that action --

I know Randi has a military history herself so she is aware of this.

My husband would have defied the order to deploy, but it would have meant prison for longer than his deployment, no paycheck, and he has a family to support.

It's just not a luxury many service members can truly afford.

It is a nice idea though, and kudos to her for even saying it out loud on the air.

[Cleita]

72. If your husband was killed in action, there still wouldn't be a paycheck.

However, if he serves time, he will come out alive. I think this is the gamble she's asking soldiers to take. Since this war will be regarded an illegal war in the future, I'm sure pardons will be offered as well when Bush is neutralized.

[Katherine Brengle]

90. Trust me, I understand that --

lucky for us he made it home safe.

I'm not saying soldiers shouldn't do this, I'm just saying I fully understand why more of them don't - for some, the price is too high, even compared to the risk of dying in action.

Honestly, a lot of these men (and women) have families - families that at the very least get a payout from a life insurance policy if they die. Prison affords no such thing.

It's not right, it's just reality.

[sanskritwarrior]

73. I've said it twenty times

I'll say it one more......

People like randi have the right to say whatever they want, I defend that right everyday. However, if one of my soldiers tried this, I will do everything in my power to send that soldier to Leavenworth. We as soldiers do not get to make policy, we as soldiers carry out policy. We have a set of rules that govern illegal versus legal orders, we are taught the Geneva Convention and are aware of the Rules of Land Warfare. That being said, there is nothing about the Iraq War as of today that makes it illegal. You can cite Nuremberg all you want, you can cite Constitutional scholars all you want, you can cite activists all you want. Nothing any of them say has a legally binding force behind it. I did not take my Oath of Enlistment to listen to the aforementioned people. I take my orders from the Congress and from the President.

My own personal feelings are irrelevant as are the feelings of other soldiers. We are not authorized to follow whatever orders we feel like following. That way leads to anarchy and a potential Coup d'etat. I will not take part in a coup under any circumstances, I will turn my weapon and the weapons of my men on any officer or member of govt that orders me to remove any President. If however there is an impeachment that is ratified and calls for the arrest of a sitting President, I have no problem marching down to the White House and putting the cuffs on that President myself. Now that being explained let's look at the Randi issue.

Randi has earned the right to speak her mind and good on her for it. However, any man or woman in uniform that takes her advice, deserves to go to jail. We do not have the right to question public policy, that is not a case of "following orders" it is a case of military discipline. My statements do not make me a bush supporter or a war supporter, they make me mindful of the Oath I took, that oath stated that I would do many things, none of those things involved me disobeying legal orders.....

And as of today February 5th 2007, those orders are legal. Until Congress rescinds them, or impeaches the President, I and every other soldier, sailor, airman, and marine are oath bound to follow these legal orders. It matters not one whit what a Nuremberg lawyer says, it matters not one whit what a Constitutional expert says, it matters not one whit what activists say. They are free to say whatever they want, but their words carry no force of law behind them.........Congress and the President and the Federal courts must decide this matter before soldiers are allowed to disobey orders that are deemed illegal. Americans should be proud that the military is still disciplined enough to listen to its government instead of doing what the hell it wants....Instead so many people including some people on DU will plead with the military to ignore discipline, ignore 220 years of military subservience to the the civilian govt, and just refuse to obey the President........Sorry, I believe in the military and I believe in the discipline that holds us all together and I reject this appeal by Ms. Rhodes to get soldiers to forget their oaths......

One final thought be careful what you wish for......I could envision a scenario where Rush Limbaugh pleads with soldiers not to obey President John Edwards, or President Hillary Clinton.......How would people here feel if some soldiers did that???

[symbolman]

77. I assume you took the same OATH I did

when I enlisted?

In that oath did it not say to DEFEND THE US FROM ENEMIES BOTH WITHIN AND WITHOUT?

Bush is an Enemy of the United States as he does not Obey or respect his OATH to protect and defend the Constitution and the PEOPLE. Indeed, he SUBVERTS THEM for his own PERSONAL GAIN.

Therefore he cannot ISSUE a LEGAL ORDER.

He is a Treasonous bastard, and it is my wish that the Joint Chiefs of Staff ARREST HIM.

If was in the Military now, even after having served my time, I would RESIST him and tell others to do so as well.

Just like Randi.

Thanks for serving if you did.

[sanskritwarrior]

78. Who is deciding

if Bush is an enemy of the state or not?? You and I do not get to make that distinction. That is for Congress to decide....And yes I took that oath and am following it now by counseling young soldiers to do their duty and follow their oath and the UCMJ....You can say he is a treasonous bastard you are out of uniform....I cannot, and according to Congress Bush is none of those things you called him. Ergo in the eyes of the military to include myself and the Joint Chiefs what you said is not true in the sense of the law.

If you were in the military today and telling others to resist him you would go to jail. Good order and disicipline in the military are even more important when we have shitty leaders. And until Congress does something Bush is the President, and his orders are legal......saying he is an enemy of the state does not make it so.....I hope you understand why military members are oath bound to follow legal orders.....

Finally yes I did and am still serving.....6.5 more years until my 20 :)

[B Calm]

82. Limbaugh pleads with soldiers not to obey President John Edwards, or President Hillary Clinton

Uh.... they would anyway...

[MamaBear]

87. Where were you during the Clinton presidency?

Those right wing bastards did everything they could to make sure the enlisted men had no respect whatsoever for the legally and popularly elected President of the United States. In fact, the right wing death-to-democracy squads were doing their damdest to get Clinton convicted of something ... anything...

Plus, Clinton (of whom I am no fan) at least was sure he had some sort of legal basis for the destruction he ordered wrought on third-world nations.

Randi got several calls on Friday from people whose children were being deployed. These callers were frantic. Her show yesterday may have been her response to those calls. She was telling parents that it was time for them to grow up and be parents and accept responsibility for their kids, including the responsibility to keep them alive at all costs.

[sanskritwarrior]

92. In the Army proudly serving

I don't listen to right wing radio, but can someone show me an example where Rush Limpballs asked the soldiers to stop following orders concerning Bosnia or Kosovo, the two analogs of Clintons presidency?

[Cleita]

88. I'm not military, but if I had a son in the military, I would

tell him to risk Leavenworth to not enable this war for corporate profits. I don't know what your oath says, but I'm sure that there is something in there about defending the country, not raiding another country for the enrichment of Exxon, Mobile and Arco.

If these illigitimate wars are not stopped in their tracks by the people who fight and die for them, then our civilian commanders-in-chiefs will be able to abuse this power they have over and over again.

Speaking of Congress, aren't they supposed to declare wars? I don't think the Iraq war was declared by Congress nor the upcoming one with Iran. The IWR was not a declaration of war, which makes these wars illegal and I don't think anyone needs to obey the tinpot king's orders on these ones.

[followthemoney]

91. "Legal" means enforceable through violence, for a law not backed by the threat of

violence is merely a suggestion.

The constitution is social contract. The contract has been voided by failure to abide by elections, etc. The legitimacy of the Bush administration is continued through his maintenance of the monopoly on violence. You will be shot or deposited in jail for the disregard of the masters wishes. Or poisoned with weaponized anthrax.

Bush rules through fear, not through the power granted by the constitution.

Those who will not acknowledge this reality will comfort themselves that somehow everything is as it should be. The pain of cognitive dissonance is too great to bear without escape into the fantasy of an alternate reality.

[Hippo_Tron]

74. Go AWOL? that's unhead of

Oh wait, nevermind...