China Bashing on DU Getting Out of Hand?

[parkia00]

This is the first time I have started a thread here on DU and I hope this is the proper forum section to post this. Previously I have only replied to other threads. I have though long and hard about posting this mainly because I don't really know how fellow DU's would respond. I also hate getting into tit for tat flame wars and I know this post might devolve into just that. I'm doing this because I feel it is important and no one else seems to be bringing this up.

This post concerns China bashing on DU which seem to almost become a favorite past time recently. China bashing has always been around since the 19th century blaming Chinese people or the local Chinese community as a whole for anything that might go wrong for it was convenient to do so; to stereotyping Chinese people as being cruel, cunning and wear pigtails and always inventing tortures and throwing unwanted babies in rivers. But that was then. Anyone that implies such analogies today would be accused as a bigot.

However China bashing today has evolved. Most popular are cheap or dangerous Chinese products, pollution, labor practices and human rights. Although such subjects deserve to be given the spot light, the bashing always slowly spreads to other aspects of China and it's people. I have lost count how many times posts on DU concerning something about China has simply devolved into anti-chinese rhetoric. I've seen fellow DU members slam down Chinese culture, history, religion and calling China the biggest threat to the world. I've seen fellow DU'ers call Feng Shui, belief in various spirits and deities, praying at temples with joss sticks as bull shit and stupid.

Many recent calls for a boycott of Chinese products by some DU'ers have degenerated to an all wide call for a boycott of anything Chinese. I've seen DU'ers encouraging others not to patronize their local Chinese restaurants, grocery shops and Chinese owned launderettes and the arguments goes this has to be done because you never know what these Chinese might put in their food or in the laundry they wash. It's all dangerous. Others have called or wished the coming Olympic Games in Beijing would be a disaster simply because it's being hosted in China. I quote form one such post on DU some time ago that I bookmarked. Many others I did not bookmark and forgot who posted them and where but I certainly remember the remarks they make:


**************

"If the Chinese are such ardent practicers of Fung Shui, then why have they created the most polluted enviroment in the history of humanity and by their actions threaten life for all entities on this planet? Fung Shui is BS! And so is the Chinese government, state run capitalism, rampant cronyism and corruption, an enslavement of millions producing crap for the west to consume. I can't think of a more horrendous society, short of fascist Europe, Stalinism, and other brutal dictatorship run nations. Unless checked by western, african, south american and some asian powers, China's ugly culture, economy and military will dominate the planet for the next four hundred years, with unimaginable war making and horrors for humanity. The intelligence forces of those nations would be more useful spending their energies on disrupting the Chinese elites, by fomenting widespread discontent among the urban and rural populations, pitting ethic groups and regions against each other. Just as the Soviet Union - the model of state run capitalism, collapsed by its own weight with some help from the outside - not the least of which being the proliferation of PC's and the rapid spread of liberating ideas, so must the internet be the primary tool for the breakup of China."

**************

I was the only person who responded to this post. And to be frank I truly expected at least some others to do the same. Yet there was no replies nor was the thread deleted for what to me was insulting and ridiculing to one specific group of people simple due to their ethnic origin. I can only conclude that there were no replies because everyone seem to miss the post or many fellow DU members simply found it acceptable and nothing to complain about.

But why all this rabid hatred of China? Yes there are many things wrong like any other countries. Yes some factory owners treat their workers as shit and openly pollute. But to use this to paint all factories in China as this way? Worker pay is lower and unions are almost nonexistent. I hear DU'ers always point out saying

"Look, Chinese workers are only being paid $0.90 cents per hour. That's no better then slave labor. China is evil!"

Sure 90cents is not a lot of money. But fellow DU'ers don't seem to take into account cost of living. $10 a day gets you a lot more buying power in Ningpo than in New York City. $10 is a much higher wage than living in the rural countryside. But such facts are almost always ignored and people only focus on a few things that feed their China bashing and to give their arguments more substance.

China+heavy pollution+labor practices+cheap dangerous goods+low pay = slave labor conditions. China is bad. Boycott all China goods !!! Buy American!

I don't know how many times I have heard this. Chinese goods are cheap because that is the market the Chinese economy and industries can compete in. They cannot produce very advanced expensive products. If they do that as this time they will most likely fail. Both Japan, Taiwan and South Korea went through this same phase. Even the US went through such a phase on their road to being an industrialized nation during the late 19th and early 20th century where profit and growth was considered much more important than worker rights and environmental impact. In the 1950's and 1960's Japanese products were cheap and looked down upon by the West. So Japanese manufactures concentrated on making cheap less complicated products like transistor radios which they could easily export and in the mean time continued to make their products better until they could compete with the big nations. In the 1980's and 1990's Taiwan and South Korea had their turn. This time it was mostly electronic goods and computer chips. There is a huge difference in a 1987 Hyundai economy car than a 2007 Hyundai economy car. Because they got better.

Now it's China's turn. Just like Taiwan and South Korea, they focus on cheap goods but also concentrate on improving quality. 10 years ago China was hardly making any CD players. Today most of the worlds mid and lower end CD/DVD players are Chinese made. Why, because they improved. My cousin owns a factory in South China that manufactures CD/VCD/DVD players. He then sells them to Panasonic, JVC, Philips and Sony complete with proper packaging and instruction manuals for the proper company which then buys them and sells them as their own under their own name badge. I have one in my house, straight from the factory so no name badge simply blank. It's 7 years old and never had a problem. What's wrong with that? My cousin isn't evil. He does not treat his workers like shit. The factory is clean with worker housing both for workers and their families. They pay is much higher than anything in the area before the factory came along. Yet to many, his products are cheap, lousy, dangerous and must be boycotted simply because it's made in China or made by Chinese. You cannot use a few examples to paint a wide picture of how everything else must be like. If I used this same wide brush, I can argue that Americans are blood thirsty war mongers who have no respect for international law. Yet I know this is not true! Evidence is all round. Yet this is what's going on when it comes to China.

A few days ago there was a thread about Chinese made cars being sold in the US. Again as usual it degenerated to all out China bashing and the few brave souls who try to make the point that not all Chinese made cars are not the pieces of crap got called by all sorts of names and finally ending with being labeled by some as supporters of slave labor. Some DU'ers always start the China bashing and egged on by others while others simply follow and many times their points do not make sense if you really look at it. I doubt many of these DU'ers have been to China and rode in Chinese made cars. If so how can they be in a position to comment on it? I have rode in them. The Chinese WV Jettas, Santanas, The Buick Lacrosse and Audi A6. There is nothing wrong with these cars at all other than having the stigmata of being Chinese made. It's not unusual to see 15 year old VW Santanas on the road. If any of these cars were made else where like Mexico and exported to the US, I seriously doubt many DU'ers would have such a problem with it. Than it hits me that this is not really about badgering this China made product at all. What it was about was simply China bashing. This product is made in China, thus it is bad, it is cheap and dangerous and anyone that purchasing this China made product is supporting the exploitation of Chinese labor and causing unemployment at home. Period.

I am of Chinese heritage. I do not live in China or in the US. Maybe because of that I tend to be a little more sensitive when people start to bad mouth China which eventually usually leads to bad mouthing anything Chinese or in some instances reaching to a point of anything "Asian" is to be ridiculed. But think about it. Of all the things being said about China or anything Chinese made.. supplied... designed etc... here on DU everyday. Replace China or Chinese with African American, Muslim, Jewish or any other group and what does that sound like? If any DU members starts their bashing with these other groups you can bet there will be a host of other members coming down on them. But when it comes to China, it all seems fair game.

I was thrilled when I first found DU. A place of like minded progressive liberals can talk and write and get a wide variety of news faster than almost anything out there. But recently especially after the pet food and toothpaste incidents I have noticed that things have become decidedly hostile to China and sometimes even to Chinese people as a whole. You might think I'm over reacting. But those people making such off the wall comments and branding all China or Chinese products or people with a simple swipe of their brush as being dangerous, greedy, cheap, dirty, corrupt or even in some cases evil might think nothing of it. You might think differently if you are on the receiving end of such comments. It hurts.

I liken DU to a large tree with many people chatting away on topics under the shade. Things used to be nice with people respecting others that are different, from a different culture, country and beliefs. Everything is cordial and easy going until someone puts up the sign "Chinese Not Welcomed" I don't know what to do! I really like it here on DU and want to remain a part of this community. I can simply go on and try to ignore the best I can the many anti Chinese posts and comments even if it hurts a lot and simply say to myself that this is simply part of being on an online community as large as this. Should I remain on DU and simply make sure I don't reveal to people that I'm Chinese to avoid the possible scorn? If I do this then I would be admitting to myself that I am ashamed of my heritage for which I am not. I don't know how other non American Chinese members feel about what is happening here. I certainly did not expect something like this when I fist joined DU.

[Fredda Weinberg]

1. Welcome to DU! Over time, I've dealt with patterns as well

I got to recognize names and look for 'em ... they don't post often or in provocative threads, but they're the reason I stick around.

[Bluebear]

50. They've been here 4 years :)

I don't know what inspired them to emerge today, or to abandon the conversation they started, though!

[Systematic Chaos]

2. I work for one of the top makers of computer peripherals.

We sell countless millions of keyboards, mice, webcams and gaming products for the PC, gaming consoles, iPod, mobile phones and more.

Every single thing we sell is made in China but it is among the best quality you can buy, bar none.

Would I rather people in Europe and the US were paid to make these things, even though it would raise prices a bit? Absolutely.

Do I begrudge China for having these manufacturing jobs? No. Do I feel the need to bash China for making my company's products? Absolutely not.

Now, let's talk about the thousands of sick and dead pets from tainted Chinese gluten. Let's talk about the people getting sick and dying in other countries, from Chinese toothpaste. Let's talk about the tons upon tons of food products that are rejected at our ports because (luckily for us) they were tested and found to be spoiling or toxic. Or what about the Chinese-made lunchboxes that were found to contain large amounts of lead?

Do I feel the need to viciously attack China for that bullshit?? Fuckin' a right I do.

Sorry I can't agree with what you say. Maybe I will when Chinese products are up to decent standards across the board.

[William769]

6. Thanks for being so eloquent.

I at one point started to write a response, it just would not have come out the way yours did. I hope you don't mind me piggy backing yours.

[RPM]

31. Poison food; lead lunchboxes; etc... - all valid complaints

kudos to your response

[kurth]

54. It's a health and safety issue

and it's not just the American consumers who are complaining.

[Edweird]

75. I own a chinese motorcycle. Zongshen.

It's actually pretty decent quality.

But that doesn't excuse everything else. You are 100% right.
btw. There are also plenty of chinese made motorcycles around that are DEATH TRAPS. Poorly made pieces of un-road-worthy garbage.

[malaise]

3. Good post n/t

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. Thank you for taking the time to write this post

and to explain your position. You say you are of Chinese heritage but live neither in China nor the US. I am curious--have you been to either country? I'd be interested to have your impressions of them if you have.

As to DU--you are correct that it is a micro-community made up of progressives from around the world. One of the most interesting things about DU to me is that even progressives sometimes slip over the line when it comes to bashing/hurting people of certain groups. I will say that personally, I didn't realize I was doing so when it came to talking about atheists until I got talking with them and tried to see things from their point of view.

But in a group as large as this, there will be many who don't follow this practice of putting themselves in the other person's shoes. They would rather make what they consider smart comments. As a Muslim, I've seen my share of it here--and as a mystic, even moreso. Feng Shui is a valid practice, and can help change energies in places, and I respect it. However, there are some here who view it as "New Age" stuff to be put down. Just as there are some who have to put down any religious or spiritual belief. This sort of thing seems to come with being on DU. I've come to think of it this way--this is a forum where you can show yourself to be wise or make a complete fool of yourself--and trust me, I've done both.

I think it is legitimate to question the actions of any government or corporation, especially when you view those actions as being harmful to humanity or the planet. However, I would hope that DUers could rise above the old habit of going from trashing the government to trashing all the people living under that government. There is no such thing as uniformity when it comes to the members of a nation-or even a corporation or even a political party. And to go so far as to say to boycott Chinese businesses in this country--like restaurants--is just plain silly.

Perhaps the problem here on DU is a lack of understanding of Chinese culture and how ethnic Chinese living in other countries view it. I sincerely hope that you don't let those who bash China and by extension all Chinese stop you from coming here and posting. Your insight is valuable, and would make an important impact in any discussion. Do not be afraid to let people know your ethnicity and call them on statements that overgeneralize or that are bigoted. And realize that they are a minority here.

[parkia00]

81. Yes

I was in California for 11 years. Been a few times to China but never lived there for any extended period. Overall I would say overseas Chinese are pretty much split like Dem and the GOP parties. There are pro and anti China really depending on where they live. Most Chinese from main land China are mostly supportive of their government even when they are traveling outside of the country. Chinese from Taiwan are mainly opposite. They are pro Taiwan and generally anti PR of C. But what I do notice is that Chinese on both sides of the straits including those from SE Asia do tend to band together when they are faced with accusations by some party which so not distinguish between the various Chinese groups. Basically branding Chinese as one group without taking into account various histories or geographic locations.

[Annces]

5. I have a strong reaction to the Chinese government

not Chinese people. I do not see any flow of people power going from the people toward the government. I see the government as being exceptionally well run, and competent at running the show and dealing extremely harshly with people. What other country sentences scientists to death for being corrupt? What other country takes care of an outbreak of rabies by going door to door and bashing in the dog's heads. I see Russia as not listening to its citizens either, but I see a difference in that Russian government is incompetent. Whereas I see China as extremely competent in ruling the country, with extreme control.

I really do not hear much about Korea, although I know the leader is North Korea is supposed to be an extremely cruel dictator.

[DeepModem Mom]

7. I agree. My complaint is with the repressive Chinese government. nt

[SayWhatYo]

74. Why do you believe anti-Chinese propaganda?

have you ever been to China? If not, then I don't know if you have any right to talk about it like that.

[Berry Cool]

8. You make excellent points, and welcome to DU.

We need to be vigilant about making sure that our dislike of Chinese government policy, or anger and anxiety about some Chinese business practices, does not extend itself into general hatred of China and the Chinese people.

People are always individuals, no matter what country they come from and no matter what its policies. This is a lesson Americans should have learned from seeing "the Soviet Union"--which for years we were encouraged to think of as a monolithic entity full of nasty commies--break down and become what it really was: a group of countries with many wonderful people who only wanted to live their lives in peace and freedom as we did, who didn't necessarily love their government any more than we did, but dealt with it because they had little choice.

It sounds trite to say it, but every country is full of people you'd love to have as friends and people you wouldn't want to know, and every government has good and bad policies, and every country has greedy or desperate people who will do anything for money. China's entry into the global economy has been fraught with missteps, some of which have put lives at stake not just in the countries China trades with but within China itself. This isn't just a case of a country trying to screw over other countries. Greed is a universal human trait.

Americans need to get over their longstanding "You can trust what we Americans make, but God only knows what you get from that other country or its people once they come over here" attitude. The truth is there was a time when we were just as bad when it came to pure food and drugs, as anyone with a knowledge of our history should recall. Fear and anxiety about the supposed greed of another country selling goods to us should not be used as prejudice against its people.

[treestar]

12. Especially as we need that tolerance for ourselves

Many others say they don't have a problem with the American people, but with the government.

And our government is, at least in theory, something we chose.

[FloridaJudy]

58. I agree

Read some of the "muckraker's" articles and books from the turn of the last century, and you'll find that same complaints made about American products/working conditions are the same being leveled against Chinese industry now. It took a lot of hard work to improve the quality of American products, and the quality of life for the average American worker - advances that many of us now see slipping away. I certainly don't blame the Chinese people for this: I blame my own government for failing to assure that imported and domestic products are adequately tested for safety, and American corporations for buying the cheapest possible supplies without taking basic precautions to make sure they meet minimum standards for safety and quality.

It's just that we see so many dangerous products coming from China, now that the Chinese are going through their own rapid industrialization with all its dangers. We also see a China that is repeating some of our worst mistakes in dealing with public health and environmental issues.

As for bashing Chinese culture in general, what can I say? Some people are just ignorant bigots. I'm a huge fan of Chinese art, cooking, literature, and movies. If other people deprive themselves of the chance to appreciate another culture out of xenophobia, then we're all the poorer for it.

[trumad]

9. .

[treestar]

10. IA. Anyone making a lot of products will make some crappy ones

And the Chinese have as much right to scramble to make a living as we do. In addition, we have zillions of protections, and the distributors are ultimately American and can be sued in the event of injury.

As for Chinese restaurants, Americans must love Chinese food (or Chinese-American food, which it really is). There is a Chinese take out or restaurant in every shopping center in the county where I live. New ones open up across the street from already existing ones.

I noticed an attempt in the MSM to bash Chinese food recently, as unhealthy. Except for General Tsao's chicken (probably developed to meet the American market) it still must be way better than McDonald's.

[brentspeak]

65. Can we send your livelihood overseas to China? I'm sure you won't mind.

Well, what's the matter? Don't you think the Chinese have as much right to make a living as we do???

[Common Sense Party]

82. How does one "send" someone's "livelihood" over to China?

How does that work?

[HamdenRice]

11. As an African American who has worked in China ...

I completely agree. Although DUers are generally progressive and skeptical of the mainstream media, many also unconsciously buy into msm bogey men and simplistic ideas about countries and people overseas.

China certainly has many environmental and economic challenges, but what stunned me was how earnest they are in confronting them. I watched regional and village level officials in large meetings stand up and rail against pollution, corruption and mismanagement in front of central government officials in ways that local officials in the US would be afraid to do. It literally blew my mind to see how China actually works and I've never seen anything about this in the mainstream American media.

As for its economic supremacy, they can't help it that American corporations have hollowed out the American economy. If Americans want to buy their stuff, why on earth would they decide not to sell it?

Most Americans project evil intentions onto the motivations of foreign countries because we have so many evil intentions toward other countries. Another thing I learned working with the Chinese is that China's government is 99% concerned with China, not with projecting its power outside China. Their number one concern is how on earth they are going to continue feeding 1.2 billion people -- and they have a time horizon that stretches centuries into the future. Most Americans cannot grasp that the word for "China" in Chinese translates "Middle Kingdom." It's a hard concept to get across to Americans but it basically refers not so much to self-centeredness as selfishness, but being self-sufficient, independent, and somewhat defensively oriented toward the rest of the world.

We Americans are blaming China for the greedy, short sighted policies pursued by American corporate and governmental leaders.

Put a big dollop of plain old racism on top of this ignorance and anger and you get pretty much how Americans talk about China -- whether liberal, middle of the road or conservative.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. Well said. China has many problems...just like we do.

And, like we do, they sometimes sweep them under the rug. At other times, just like we do, they confront and do something about them.

But, they are a handy scapegoat to use as a comparison. And, "they" aren't white.

[brentspeak]

62. That's nice. In the meantime, people shouldn't hesitate to steer clear of Chinese imports

Period.

[Beelzebud]

13. So is it not PC to talk about China's horrible workers rights records or it's shitty products?

Give me a fucking break.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beelzebud]

23. Racist? You obviously don't know the meaning of the word...

[Chovexani]

71. Because black folk in America certainly don't know anything about racism

You know, I was going to bust out Fail!Cat, but I don't even think Fail!Cat can express the sheer level of LOSE and FAIL in your post. I think it might well be the single stupidest post I've read on DU.

Congratulations. :applause:

[JVS]

30. "The OP has a relative who owns a factory there. I'll take his word over yours."

:rofl:

totally unbiased perspective there.

[HamdenRice]

38. Yes, how horrible ...

Someone who actually has real knowledge rather than mainstream media cartoon knowledge.

The poor guy with the factory and the OPer who have lived and worked in China and are actually Chinese are probably some of those pathetic guys ... in what we call the reality-based community ... people who believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality ... That's not the way the world really works anymore ... we create our own reality.

On the other hand, someone who just brain-farts out uninformed stereotypes of China is much, much more reliable.

:sarcasm:

[JVS]

40. Oh absolutely. If one wants to know how the Union Stockyards functioned, best to take the word of..

the owners and none of this muckraking BS that's out there by outside agitators.

[Beelzebud]

59. Remember. It's racism to question their unfair labor and trade laws.

You might offend a business owner in China. We wouldn't want that...

[brentspeak]

63. Yup. The "racism" smear re. free trade/China/India has been a GOP strategy for over two decades

It's been picked up by other free-traders since then -- DLCers, Milton Friedman-types, etc.

I'm glad that other DUers see through the "racism" B.S. on this particular issue. The American people should never cave to the bogus pressure of the racism charges re. free trade/China/India, etc.

[parkia00]

85. No! It is NOT racism to question China's policies

I never implied that or said that at all! Where you pulled that from I can only guess! Many of China's policies need to be brought forthright and a big bright spot light shone on it. What I'm trying to get through and from reading your previous replies to my first post, seem to have completely missed, is that if you condemn some people or some policy or behavior, make sure you do not condemn everyone of that same crime that happens to be from the same group of people. Why is it important? Because that's stereotyping. And stereotyping a group of people is the first step on the path to racism.

[Beelzebud]

99. I was called a racist for mentioning their worker's rights record.

If I was a racist I wouldn't give a shit about worker's rights...

[parkia00]

84. I guess that makes me a liar then?

Because every smart person knows for a fact that there is no such thing as a decent factory owner in China. They are all money grubbing pigs hell bent on enslaving their fellow countrymen to make cheap shoddy products to sell to the unsuspecting world and just for the heck of it they pollute the enviroment simply to make themselves seem more evil. If that makes perfect sense to your reality, say "I do."

Concerning my cousin's factory. It's a small factory in Fujian and employs mostly people from the surrounding areas. Before the main industry was agriculture and various small village industries like granite quarrying making granite tiles, road shoulders and bricks for use in the local area. People seldom left the area and people were mostly very poor. When the factory was opened with the Chinese partner they were in the market for workers. The wages were higher and hours shorter. Typical work hours are 10 hour days not the usual 8 hour day in the US. No one forced the villages to work for the factory. The villages decided for themselves that working in the factory for 10 hours for better pay vs. working in the fields for 12 hours or more with less pay was a no brainer. These days, the small factory is used as a stepping stone for the workers. They work there to gain experience before going off to larger cities and larger factories for larger pay due to their experience they got first hand. Chinese people always go back to the village from where they are from to pay homage to the elders and those workers who come back bring their pay back with them. Their lives have improved quite a lot. Electricity, telephone and televisions are much more common these days. The muddy roads have been paved and new buildings built. These improvements were NOT made by the government but by the villagers themselves with the money they had earned. And this is the truth. It matters not if you believe me or further call me what ever names that comes to your mind. There is no way I can make anyone acknowledge something if they refuse to see it or have already made up their minds on what reality must be like.

[HamdenRice]

88. Just to check we're on the same page

If you were responding to me, I was being sarcastic -- that's why I used the "sarcasm smilie." I was agreeing with you and saying you and your cousin have actual knowledge of China and are part of the "reality based community."

If you are not in the US, that expression, "reality based community" comes from a bizarre quote from a Bush administration official who actually claimed that it is wrong to take account of reality.

[parkia00]

100. Oh No!

I was replying to Beelzebud. Replies can get really confusing when the thread gets longer. Thanks though.

[Ghost in the Machine]

68. Obviously you need to re-read the OP. He said he is of Chinese heritage

but DOES NOT LIVE IN CHINA, or the U.S. ....

"I am of Chinese heritage. I do not live in China or in the US. Maybe because of that I tend to be a little more sensitive when people start to bad mouth China which eventually usually leads to bad mouthing anything Chinese or in some instances reaching to a point of anything "Asian" is to be ridiculed."

in what we call the reality-based community, we like reality based on facts... please brush up on yours before you go any further.

Thanks

[brentspeak]

66. The OP has a relative who owns a factory there?? Well, that settles it, then!

You convinced me. Obviously his word is not to be questioned, and everyone else is just a sleazy racist.

I think we should all self-defeatedly kow-tow to your point-of-view, and self-repress ourselves when discussing China and its outrageous, predatory manufacturing and trade practices, for fear of being perceived as "racist".

The late 1970's GOP brain trust and the Club For Growth would be proud to know that their free trade talking points were still being disseminated into the 21st century.

:thumbsdown:

[parkia00]

86. All I'm asking is an open mind.

Maybe it's simply easier to label me a liar and brush me off rather than digest the message I'm trying to get across?

[PVnRT]

89. That's hilarous

The OP has a relative who owns a factory there. I'll take his word over yours.

Yeah, there's an unbiased opinion, someone who owns a factory in China. Good one.

[Virginia Dare]

93. I've never been to China...

but I work with people who were born and raised there, some of whom went through the communist revolution, spent time in gulags, escaped and are now here working to change labor and human rights policies there. I've seen pictures and video of some of the factories there, as well as photographic proof of some of the horrific violations of human rights that goes on there. It's pretty harrowing. I have nothing but sympathy and hope for the people.

Things need to change there, we should not be cozying up to that government the way we are until they do. We aren't perfect either but we are enabling them in a big way.

[BlooInBloo]

15. lol! Oh the irony.

[uppityperson]

52. That is not the point.Need to differentiate between workers rights/shitty products & everything Chin

and everything Chinese. Yes, talk about the shit, avoid the shit, but don't extend it to everything Chinese. I understand and have had these concerns also. Sort of like hating the bushco administration but not the people of the country. Or hating the fact that can't test for mad-cow here now, but not avoiding everything USA made.

[OzarkDem]

87. US workers shouldn't have to compete w/ slave labor,

against products made in a country that cuts costs by polluting the hell out of their environment and violates every fair trade agreement known to man.


I agree with a previous poster, I have nothing against Chinese people, but plenty to disagree with their government.

[Madspirit]

16. When I BASH someone

When I bash someone, I ALWAYS mean their system of government, not the individual people. ...and frankly, PRC sucks. ...and I have friends from there and they think it sucks too. PRC executes over 3000 of their own people a year. Makes us Texans look like amateurs with the ol' "he needed killin'". I think the government of PRC is one of the worst on the entire planet. It is totalitarian and brutal.

Once again, no government is immune to criticism on a political board. That is not the same thing as racism. I have friends from all over the world and that includes friends from China. ...and also as I said, they hate PRC too. I will NEVER stop criticizing that government or any other I think needs dissing. Jeez, I criticize my own government a LOT. Why would another be immune?
Lee

[question everything]

17. Bashing China?

Try searching for Israel, even outside the I/P forum.

There is nothing that Israel or Israelis will do that will get even a weak pass on DU.

At best, no one would comment to a post that is positive about Israel or its people.

[Madspirit]

20. Actually

I am a RARE far leftist, I guess. I support Israel and it's people. A lot.
Lee

[question everything]

24. That you.

You are, indeed, rare and courageous (in certain situations).

[Madspirit]

29. "You are, indeed, rare and courageous (in certain situations)."

...and I'm common and cowardly in others? :rofl:

Yes, I am pro-Zionist. Still, I do not support every policy of Israel.
Lee

[question everything]

69. LOL, sorry about that

Should have said thank you... I should really read closely what I type before hitting the post button..

No, what I meant is that often on DU openly supporting Israel requires acts of courage.

Thanks, again.

[Behind the Aegis]

28. Agreed.

I find the OP to be quite ironic. Hell, posts don't even have to be about Israel for someone to bring that nation into the conversation and begin a bloodbath! There may be a few that are "preoccupied" with China, I don't know. I do know there are more than few preoccupied with Israel and salivate like dogs anytime she is mentioned.

"At best, no one would comment to a post that is positive about Israel or its people."

True. However, more often than not a shitty comment will emerge. I posted about an Israeli being the first from Israel to win in a Wimbledon's doubles, the VERY first comment? "I wonder if he celebrated by going out and occupying east London!"

[Madspirit]

32. Irony is just so.....Ironic

It's kind of funny because other progressive sites list one of their problems with DU is it's lack of criticism of Israel. That is one of my problems I have a problem posting at those boards. I saw at one...a very well-known other progressive board, an actual "questioning the holocaust" thread. I cannot abide that. I will NOT abide that...but I am a rare far left person being pro-Zionist and all. That doesn't mean I agree with all of Israel's policies but I do support Israel.

I think that was a crappy-assed response to your Wimbleton post but there are crappy-assed responses to most posts here. If someone said they saw a rainbow someone else would say it's probably an Evil, Corporatist, Bushco rainbow. It's kind of strange and offputting and adolescent.
Lee

[xchrom]

19. it's U.S. trade policies i have a problem with -- not china.

our trade with china is hurting us -- and that's the fault of washington dc -- and corporations here.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. They're beating us at our own game, so we complain.

The irony is that "we" have used the "free market" as a selling point to the world, while doing our best to corner the markets, exploit the world's resources and labor, and now we bitch because the Chinese and Indians are doing it better than we are.

The Chinese make products at prices that Americans, a goodly proportion of the rest of the world, want. They not only compete with us for markets, but other nations, (Japan, S. Korea, Taiwan, Germany, etc). And, they're doing it successfully.

They have a surplus of labor, it would be downright foolish on their part not to use it to their advantage. Just as our corporations would if the situation were reversed.

[Madspirit]

33. The Reason I Complain

I complain because they execute over 3000 of their own citizens a year, kind of making us Texans with our "he needed killin'" philosophy, look amateurish in the execution department.

I am, first and foremost, a Human Rights Activist, much in the ways of Amnesty International. You should go read what they say about PRC.
Lee

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. I'm a member of AI and HRW, and I agree with you.

No argument here with bashing China, or any other country, for abusing human rights and state sponsored murder.

And, I think that the "we/they do it too" is the weakest of rationales.

[northzax]

49. actually, if you look at the numbers

Texas executed 24 people in 2006, roughly 1 for every 950,000 people. Amnesty International reports that China executed 'just over 1,000 people (est) in 2006. that's roughly one in a million for a population of a billion people. so proportionally, Texas and the PRC are just about the same.

[Madspirit]

53. Doesn't make it suck less

As someone who vehemently opposes the death penalty, this doesn't make it suck less. It just makes my home suck more.
Lee

[wuushew]

22. I would have delayed "free trade" several centuries

until the twin problems of peak energy and global warming had been addressed by the west. As it stands now the world is on an accelerating pace of systematic societal collapse.


Richard Nixon may have doomed us all.

[Nucular Terrorist]

25. I suggest registering to a Chinese Nationalist website if you don't want to view criticism

[Annces]

27. Powerful image there n/t

[pwb]

26. Half the apple juice sold in the u s comes from china.

made with water from the most polluted rivers in the world, according to bill moyers. Anything made with chinese water should be avoided in my book . I blame our FDA as well for allowing these goods into our country.. Our children consume most of that apple juice. Sad.

[Rosemary2205]

44. OH MY GOD

Is that true? :scared:

[kurth]

70. 40 - 45% of the apple juice consumed in the USA comes from China, says the U.S. Apple Association

About 40% to 45% of the apple juice consumed in the USA comes from China, said Shannon Schaffer of the U.S. Apple Association, an industry group. About 74% of all apple juice is imported, and 55% of that comes from China, he says.

China is the No. 1 apple producer in the world and the leading apple juice exporter. "They grow about 47% of all the apples on the planet. We (U.S. farms) grow about 11%," he said.

Because of USDA concerns about the introduction of new apple pests and diseases, China isn't allowed to export apples to the USA, but it is allowed to export apple juice concentrate because processing eliminates some of the health concerns.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-05-21-food-imports-china_N.htm

----------------------------

China's advantage is its cheap labor. A picker makes about 28 cents an hour, or $2 a day, according to the U.S. Apple Association. In 2005, workers in Pennsylvania made about $9 to $10 per hour, and those in Washington State about $14 per hour, the association said...

After Chinese juice concentrate entered the U.S. market, the average price for juice apples fell to $55 a ton in 1998 from $153 a ton in 1995. The industry filed an antidumping case but lost on appeal with the U.S. Commerce Department. Today, more than half of imported concentrate comes from China.

"It was an uproar within the industry," said Jim Allen, president of the New York Apple Association. "What can we do? It just takes the bottom right out of our market when the product is being delivered to New York City for less than we can process and harvest it here in the United States."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/25/business/apples.php

[entanglement]

34. Many of us have a tendency to reduce foreign societies to their pathologies

real, or imagined. So China equals slave labor and crappy products, Colombia equals a drug haven, Saudi Arabia equals terror, Mexico equals corruption and where "those" people come from, any other place we haven't heard about is a "third world hellhole" and on and on.

It's simplistic and somewhat frustrating at times, because I believe blind nationalism is the biggest obstacle for workers everywhere and ultimately leads to war and strife. DU is more progressive than society at large, but is definitely not immune to xenophobia or jingoism.

[Jed Dilligan]

35. The problem is America.

A mirror of America four times the size of America is going to poison the entire planet. If Chinese development isn't greener than American development, we are all royally screwed.

[sandnsea]

36. Uhm, where'd you go

:shrug:

Unfair trade practices don't benefit anybody. We would criticize any country that was producing products that killed people and put kerosene in kids' toys.

Pretending that it's racism or bashing is a right wing ploy to stifle debate.

[nolabels]

37. It seems your post has some of the same problems

It was a nice long dissertation but the critical element of seeing the individual as important the whole still seems missing. Other posts above also seem to point this out. Perhaps your life's training has made you way, not sure. The thing is every brick is critical in building a strong wall. The wall built of people though, unlike rocks cannot be just thrown to curb and have others selected in their absence. We have to value all people. You, yourself are not a system or process, you are an individual. Don't hold fast to anything, because in life all will eventually crumble away.

One of our strengths is our ability to change faster than the things that can hold us down. Life is fickle, and one day will pass before us faster than the moment we knew it was gone.

In the USA, i can denounce this country for many things and still live. Though we may or may not like it, being critical of things in productive manner is how some things get done here. Don't feel offended, but lucky, sometimes things just get shunned or ignored because they are perceived invaluable

[Babsbrain]

41. If we became dependent on Lithuanian trade

and if a huge percentage of our consummables were made with low or non-existent quality control...then we would hold the Lithuanians accountable and take our business elsewhere.

Nothing personal...just good and sensible business.

[davsand]

42. There doesn't seem to be a lot of respect for "non-traditional" spiritual views.

From the opening post: "...I've seen fellow DU'ers call Feng Shui, belief in various spirits and deities, praying at temples with joss sticks as bull shit and stupid..."

Yep, that stuff goes on here ALL the time. As one of the "moonbats" I'll tell you that we hear it here if we express certain views in GD. I will also tell you that I've seen the Christian faith get bashed by some--along with most OTHER belief systems out there. There are a lot of people who embrace some sort of "non-belief" system and they are particularly vocal. Their only saving grace is that they are Equal Opportunity Offenders.

I will tell you that I am a Union person and I view a lot of world nations (including a lot of Central America, the US and China) as being pretty hostile to workers. It isn't anything I hold against the workers--it is the corporations and the governments I am unhappy with. People gotta work--they do it to survive--no matter WHERE they live. I do not understand why they have to suffer while they work.

I do think the anti-China attitudes are especially pronounced right now, and I do find it sad. I think people are angry right now and I think that for many it is the threat to safety that has made them angry. They are pissed that the pet food was tainted--but I think they are most unhappy with the realization that THEY might also be unsafe. It isn't just the pets that are threatened by lax standards allowed by the government of china--it is the entire population of the planet. Fear often breeds painful actions and this situation is no exception.

I also think that for some folks it is easier to be mean about people that don't look like they do.

Ya gotta figure that sooner or later the hate will be directed at whatever group YOU are part of, and all you can do is work to educate people.

Peace to you all.


Laura

[AZBlue]

43. I haven't seen posts encouraging the boycott of Chinese restaurants or other

Chinese-owned businesses. That's absurd. You have to remember that there are nuts everywhere, including DU.

As for boycotting China-made goods, that's usually a response to the government's various civil rights violations and not against the people of China. It's actually a way of supporting the people of China - we're saying change your policies and treat people better or we won't buy your goods.

And, on the food issue, well, that's a health problem and can not be tolerated anymore. It would happen no matter what the country of origin was if their products were making people sick and even killing them. There's no need to jusify that.

Thanks for your post! K&R

[supernova]

45. Think of it this way,

China is having severe growing pains right now. If this were a 100 years ago and the economy were less global, and there were much less news, the industrial messes and unsafe products/practices we see might not be much more limited and a lot less well-known.

To a large extent, that's what happened when similar things happened in the Western Industrial Revolution.

But the fact is we do live (even the Chinese!) in a much more interconnected economy. So more of us across the globe are a lot more aware of it. That's good an bad for the perpetrators. That means that these slimeballs get caught much faster, less customers are injured. And countries have the opportunity to respond with needed reforms.

I don't have anything against China. It might even be fun to visit one day. And I hope they continue with democratic reforms.

But for right now, I'm staying away from things that I can' tell where they come from or what's in them.

[Rosemary2205]

46. Sorry but I think you are full of lizards.

I've seen a lot of threads bashing defective Chinese products -- but never once have I seen any thread bashing the chinese PEOPLE, CULTURE or anything of that sort. I've not seen any threads telling people to boycott Chinese American businesses. If it's there I'd like the links because quite frankly I think you are making shit up.

Sorry.

[Reterr]

47. This is a huge site

It is possible for things to be posted without your having noticed them :shrug:. For the record, I have seen a few posts that bash the Chinese (directly or more often indirectly). It isn't exclusive to the Chinese, it can happen to any group once in a while here. That stuff happens on discussion forums. It may not be a HUGE problem, but it is good to speak out against it if someone feels it is inappropriate-it makes people more sensitive about what they post. Most of that stuff is deleted by the admins but doesn't mean they never existed.
And it is also true in general I think that people notice stuff they are sensitive to. Just because you have never seen them, it doesn't mean the OP is a liar you know.

I agree with some of the OP's points. Bashing China's govt is fine, but it can be done without saying "the Chinese" which does indeed seem to be a slur against all Chinese people.

This sort of stuff is less common on DU, then probably 90% of the internet, but that doesn't mean it doesn't creep in here. However, here unlike at at the Freepuke site, that stuff is against the rules. And a good thing too. Chalk me up as being ok with "the PC".

[Rosemary2205]

48. Well I have to say

If the OP wrote that whole novella wondering if he/she will fit in to DU generally because one person said one thing in one thread that maybe sorta could be twisted to be a slam on the Chinese culture then it's likely the OP is right. Someone that nit picky probably will end up in a flame war.

Just MHO.


And I'd love to see links to the xenophobic crap the OP is referring to.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[parkia00]

80. This is the link....

This is where I took the quote in my original post. Like I said, I did not bookmark the rest and it happened over a period of many months. I'm sorry if you think I'm a liar. I'm just trying to make people realise that if one wants to critisize something please make sure you don't use a wide brush and paint everyone in the same color just because of the actions of some of them. Stereotyping people should be more appropriate to Free Republic then here on DU. I'm not really proud of my reply but I was angry.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x215563

[Common Sense Party]

83. That was ONE post from ONE DUer with a low-post count.

Hardly a widespread anti-Chinese sentiment.

I've never noticed any anti-China bashing here. Anti-Wal-Mart bashing, and Wal_mart's selling of cheap "Made in China" products, yes, I've seen lots of that.

I think you have fallen victim to the "We See What We Look For" trap.

[DutchLiberal]

51. A few points:

No, it's not okay to bash an entire group of people just because you don't agree with their country's politics/government/policies.

Yes, it is okay to criticize China for a whole lot of stuff that's going on in that country. No, you don't have to insult their culture, their history or religion, but to me, it's completely legitimate to bash their authorities, the politicians, the Communist Party etc.

It's also fine to me to bash their economic system, because really, wages are not SO incredibly low because of their lower expenses. No, they're low because they indeed ARE treated like slaves. Whether it's in Chinese-owned factories or in the factories of Walt Disney, McDonalds etc., people are treated like crap, they are forced to work 60 hours a week for 0,0001% of the price of the products they make. For every Disney T-shirt the produce that costs the consumer $ 150, they get $ 0,10. And then they're lucky. And when they're not lucky, they don't even get paid for the extra labor they're forced to do. Yes, not ALL factories are run like that, but 99 out of 100 are.

And their leaders? They don't care. They couldn't care less. They have no eye for their own people. They torture their own people. You know that. The human rights violation are terrible. Makes Gitmo look good. At least there, they are allowed to do some gardening now. China is also the biggest sponsor of the regime in Khartoum, Sudan. The reason that the UN security council never seems to be able to sanction the Sudanese government for the atrocities in Darfur, is because China uses its veto every time. They import huge amounts of oil from Sudan. And did we all forget that China is occupying Tibet for 50 years or so? Everybody is worked up over Israel occupying Palestine (rightfully, imo), but nobody's talking about Tibet! Don't the people in Tibet deserve to be free? So here's the Chinese government, who is allowing Western factories to practically enslave their people; who torture their own people; who contribute to the crisis in Darfur; who occupy the people of Tibet; who run a dictatorship. And in that country, we are going to the Olympics? Are we out of our mind?

So yes, I think it's perfectly normal to bash China over these issues and I don't blame anyone for wishing the Olympics will be a total screw up. I wish we wouldn't go. I wish they never elected China as a host. I wish The Netherlands would boycott it. The US boycotted the Olympics in Moscow in the '80s, why not now? I say: let's all boycott the Olympics. I'm also totally for boycotting ALL products from China. Economic sanctions, too. How can we hate Iran for the very same reasons (human rights violations, dictatorship, torture) we let China off the hook?

[yy4me]

55. I feel a lot of the China bashing is a result of our concern about

things we cannot control. Situations that can cause harm to all of us is a real reason to get upset. It our anti-China really about the people? I think not. It is about our inability to deal with what the Chinese are doing that could harm us in some way. It is hard for many of us to always keep in mind that China is a newly blossoming economic power. We have thrown our economic lot with them and expect them to meet our standards. I'm sure that will come but in the meantime, we must be careful of products manufactured to standards not our own.

Good manufactured to US specs and under our inspection are, I'm sure, far better than much of what is made for a general market. When buyers for large general merchandise concerns go to trade shows and buy a container of toothpaste, 1000 gross of kids jewelry, millions of toys...well, you get my point. We are subject to what they give us and what the stores buy.

I would be willing to bet that the situation improves as the Chinese get a bit more familiar with health and safety regulations. Meanwhile, I'll just keep my eyes out for the recall lists and hope that our inspectors find the stuff that should not be here at any price.

This strikes me as a little like the post-World War II mantra.

Don't buy anything "Made in Japan".

[TheFarseer]

56. I suppose we should just

send our entire manufacturing base and computer and IT industry to China because it's "their turn" Excuse me if I want something better for my country than rampant unemployment and 99 cent tube socks. Now boycotting Chinese restaurants is way out of control, I will grant you that. I have no problem with the Chinese people and I don't have a problem with their industry trying to compete. If American companies want to set up factories in China and sell the goods produced there to consumers in South-East Asia, I don't even think that's so bad. What I have a problem with is American companies sending their base of production to China and then trying to sell that cheap crap over here with no regard for how this is affecting the future of America. What if we get into a conflict with China and they "nationalize" those factories and use the goods produced there to fight us? Will you still think outsourcing to China is a good idea? I think this is part of patriotism to stand up for American jobs and our economic freedom and well-being.

I'd also like to add that I think the Chinese government and people are very smart in alot of the things they are doing economically and I think they are taking advantage of us economically, but that is totally our fault for letting them. What I'm really angry about is that I feel we are being sold out economically by our government and our corporate leaders. I will not begrudge China for having a smart economic policy.

[sendero]

57. When you start having ....

... to worry about what kind of POISON you are eating, you get mad.

Expecting people not to is a bit unrealistic. And frankly, for me, it is not just "China" I get mad at, but the whole "free market" bullshit system that gives rise to this "race to the bottom" with price, where the maxim "you get what you pay for" comes to fruition once again.

[The Straight Story]

60. We bash the US too - can't make much progress without talking about the problems

and how to solve em.

HOW we bash is, of course, where I think some of the problems lay. But in a big tent you get diverse methods.

Bashing how we bash if fair game, as I said - ya can't make much progress without talking about the problems you see :)

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Neshanic]

67. So your relatives factory workers can Google anything?

China is still Communist. Being a end of the Boomer period person, it was instilled in us the horrors of Communism.

Now we are being told by the same people that had us watch anti-communist films in grade school and read text books about the bad Communists are now the same jetting over to open a factory.

There is a large disconnect that you, nor anyone can bridge between China being a Communist country that censors it's news, and controls it's population, all the while trying to make the point of what a fabulous country it is. Our leaders and companies like WalMart and Microsoft have sold themselves to the China that exploits the vast majority, all the while raking in the cash, and making our debt to China the gaping hole it is now.

Please also do not try the old, "they are working on it gig" as far as freedoms, change, or anything else. It is still a Communist country, and because it's now embraced by republicans for monetary reasons, the changes, if any will be glacial.

We are in debt to China up to our eyeballs. Not a good thing. The last time I checked, the person borrowing money does not tell the lender what to do. In the very near future we will find that out very much to our collective discomfort.

[kurth]

72. China will remain a Communist country for a long time to come

or until the bloody revolution, whichever comes first.

[Matsubara]

73. So the next batch of poison-laden food from China should be met with silence?

I haven't seen anyone here bashing Chinese People.

The problem is US companies who outsource their production to China, where quality control is clearly not up to snuff. That's not bashing.

Hell, I live in Japan, and a lot of people here would never by food products from China for that very reason. They like not being poisoned.

I lived in San Francisco in a predominatly Cantonese neighborhood, and I loved my Chinese friends and neighbors (and landlady!)

The apprehension about cheap but dangerous products from China is rooted in a real and serious problem, not cultural bias. I'm sure there are plenty of companies in China doing their best to make safe, high quality products, but clearly, government oversight is severely lacking and there are obviously too many people wanting to make a quick buck, even if it means mixing melamine or other poisons with food. Until those problems are corrected, the concern will be warranted, and hopefully nobody will hesitate to use their posts to alert us to any dangerous products from China (or any other country - if there are any other countries left that still make things...)

[RB TexLa]

76. The NeoKnowNothing Party has a strong left wing presence on DU

Anything that has any benefit for non-Americans is bad to them. They think everyone is trying steal "American" jobs. They don't want anyone coming here that is not going to become similar to them, they refer to it as assimilating. What they mean is for someone to come here they should have to "become similar to me, then I'm ok with some of them coming here." They expect the children, grandchildren and great grandchildren of immigrants to join them in stopping others from coming here. Their attitude is "you've climbed the ladder. Now pull it up those people want to try to climb it!" They hate the world becoming a smaller place and see evil in integration of the world's economy. They won't quite join their right wing brothers and sisters in calling to "get the UN out of the US," but they fear governments cooperating with each other in security or economics.

[Skittles]

77. we don't like American jobs being pimped off to the lowest bidders

I'm in a postion to see who is being laid off and who is taking over and there is just no comparison - you get what you pay for and believe me, we are paying for garbage

[PVnRT]

90. Wow, I didn't know you were still allowed to post here

Still spewing out the same old nonsense, I see. Carry on.

[RB TexLa]

102. You think DU bans people for not being xenophobes?

funny

[WinkyDink]

78. Wah, wah, wah. Now it's to be Politically Incorrect to criticize, even mock CHINA?! GMAB.

Let me know how that "white rhino, tiger, and other endangered species killed for superstitions" is working for ya.

[parkia00]

79. Yeah sure...

I'm sure every single Chinese person believe in potions made from Rhino horn or bear bile and are all out to get a part of it. All Chinese clinics, hospital and doctors are searching for endangered species to grind up for their potions. That's a bottle for how many people now? Not a single Chinese is doing anything to try to stop it. Just plain evil like the Klingons. Your post is the exact same kind of post I'm trying or hoping to make people realise and understand. There are many things to criticize about China and it's policies but just make sure you aim right and not use a shot gun to blast into the crowd trying to hit one target. Believe it or not, just for your information, there are many people trying to change this. But I'm sure that not important to you.

[kurth]

94. Okay, explain this for me:

I have met many Taiwanese - who are Chinese as far as I know - who own, direct, manage or operate manufacturing facilities in mainland China. Every single one of them have told me that they try to avoid local restaurants and hospitals in mainland China. They would eat only at Taiwanese or other foreign-owned restaurants and get their medical care at Taiwanese-owned hospitals. Is this because they hate Communists or Chinese food? Hell no. They know mainland China well, and they do it out of personal safety concerns. Hong Kongers and Japanese I met in China have told me the same thing.

It is not China bashing to avoid unsafe Chinese-made products.

[WinkyDink]

96. I have zero interest in studying the intricate nuances of China. It's a specious argument,

used often, that, because we can't know EVERYTHING about a nation or EVERY (citizen/religious adherent/party member) that we therefore can't GENERALIZE.

I'm sure there are some fine Republicans, also; I'm still going to bash Republicanism.

[parkia00]

101. Oh that's wonderful!

So you are making it damn clear to everyone that you are not interested in any opinion or point of view other than your own! No matter if other people try to present facts. It's all nonsense to you. Your reality is the real reality. It's no better than the movie reviewer who writes out his review based on what other people say but never having seen the movie at all. Just parroting what others have said. I don't know where you stand but to me stereotyping people is not a joking matter that you seem to take so lightly and cordial.

[NewJeffCT]

91. Yes, it's out of hand, but nearly everything gets bashed to some extent

I mean, Elizabeth Edwards got bashed on here, for goodness sake. Democrats, progressives and liberals are famous for our circular firing squad mentality.

And, to add to the OP's point - there was a thread last week about how China had declared war on us. I think most responders disagreed with that point, but it was certainly not overwhelming.

[Vinca]

92. Let's see. The Chinese have taken our jobs, killed out pets and

shipped us bacteria-ridden fish and poisonous toothpaste. Why aren't we allowed to bitch about that?????? I'd be screaming if the country in question was Monaco. Sheesh!

[WinkyDink]

95. Read this about China's being the world's #1 counterfeiter:

"In its recent report, the OECD found that Asia is the largest source of counterfeit and pirated products, and China the single-largest source."
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/07/06/business/NA-FIN-US-Consumer-Counterfeits.php

"China is the single largest producer of counterfeit goods, accounting for a massive 80 percent of items seized at the EU Borders in 2006."

http://www.cosmeticsdesign.com/news/ng.asp?n=77427-colgate-counterfeit-diethylene-glycol

[blondie58]

97. I am sorry that some have offended you in the past, Parkia00

and I have had some replies to some of my postings that hurt my feelings, also. Fact is, some people actually enjoy causing trouble and raising a ruckus.

I don't think that most people have a problem with the Chinese people. It is more the Chinese government.

We see things such as-

Tianenmen Square

the pet food scandal, that killed many pets.

the rabies epidemic and the government reported command of killing all of the dogs- or making the owners kill them- JUST IN CASE the dog might get rabies

the polluted fish

the factories wanting to make more money and to substitute poisonous products for safe and healthy products- TO MAKE MORE MONEY

the alleged organ harvesting of prisoners- including the peaceful Falun Dafa practitioners. I say alleged as it is the government is so closed and people are not allowed in the prisons, so it is hard to say, but I have read reports that are very accurate.


Personally, one of my best friends is Chinese, although her last name is Vietnamese. I will have to get the story, but she tells me that she was raised in Vietnam and most of her family live in the USA now, although she has two uncles that she didn't know existed until recently who live in Australia and NZ.

I respect her so much and I like how her culture has shaped her. I admire the values that she holds and some of her old fashioned ways.

But I don't respect how the CHinese government and companies do business.

I hope that I haven't offended you. But it does make me worry how much of our food products come from China with their past history of using poisonous products and with the amount of pollution in their lakes and waterways.


I choose to purchase foods made in our country, as I perceive them as being safer. I think as consumers, that we have the right to know where our food is coming from. And that is something that we are having a difficult time with. Who even knew that wheat gluten came from a place that made it a practice of enhancing the protein count with melatonin?

[HamdenRice]

98. John Conyers and Dennis Kucinich are murderous neo-cons & Halliburton crony capitalists

After all, they are part of the "US government" and everything that Bush/Cheney are guilty of, everyone in "the US government" must also be guilty of, as well. Not only must Conyers and Kucinich be neo-cons, but so must your local city councilman, the assistant water quality engineer of your regional EPA office, and the local dog catcher. After all, they are all part of "the government."

That's the logic of much of the China bashing -- even China government bashing.

The Chinese "government" is an incredibly complicated institution. We might want to assume that everyone in the Chinese government toes the same line because it is, after all, a one party state. But that would be a mistaken assumption.

One of the strangest experiences I had was a meeting with environmental experts within the Chinese government who were trying to prevent the destruction of farmland in the provinces. One of them began complaining that the provinces don't do anything they are asked to do.

After a great deal of listening and research I finally understood why. One big reason was a reform instituted by the late Chinese leader Deng Xioping. Before Deng, the central government mandated laws and policies through the Chinese Communist Party, not through government channels. The Leninist theory was that the party ruled through "centralism."

Deng wanted China to have a more "normal" government system and abolished direct rule through the party. The central government would rule through government/bureaucratic channels.

The problem was that those channels didn't exist. As one official put it, if you are a provincial environmental officer, do you take orders from your superior in the Beijing environmental office? Or do you take orders from the provincial governor, whose office is down the hall from yours?

In the US we have had 200 years experience with federalism. The answer in the US would be that a federal environmental official takes orders from the EPA in Washington, but there is also a state department of environmental protection official as well. China has no such double system, leading to confusion.

Almost all provincial officials take their orders from their governors rather than from Beijing. Beijing cannot even pass laws that are enforceable in the provinces, unless the provincial legislature passes an identical "enabling" law. It was truly remarkable to hear how provincial officials wouldn't even turn over tax money to Beijing.

Much of the corruption occurs at the provincial level. These officials are cheaper to buy off and closer to the businesses that want to do the bribing.

China has many problems and there are many good people within the government trying to address them. There are also many brutal and corrupt people within the government, and the overall philosophy of the central government is one party dictatorship.

But China is a decentralized mess, not a single minded, unified mess. In fact one of the reasons central government is so shrill about Taiwan has nothing to do with Taiwan. When central government China screams about Taiwan, most of the time they are actually making thinly veiled, symbolic threats to their own provinces.