Iran: Woman will be stoned to death Thursday for having had a child out of wedlock 11 years ago

[kurth]

IRAN: WOMAN 'TO BE STONED' ON THURSDAY

Tehran, 20 June (AKI) - Makrameh Ebrahimi on Thursday will be stoned to death in a square in front of the cemetery of Takestan, in Ghazvin province some 100 km from Tehran, for having had a child out of wedlock 11 years ago, women's rights groups in Iran said. The Islamic Republic denies issuing stoning death sentences and carrying them out. Thursday's is the first death sentence by stoning to be publicly announced and rights groups say the population has been invited to participate and throw stones.

It is reportedly unclear how many stoning sentences have been issued and carried out in Iran since reports of a moratorium by the judiciary emerged in 2002.

The Iranian criminal code states that when stoning is carried out for offences such as adultery the stones should not be too large because "the punishment of stoning is designed to cause the victim great pain before death".

In Iran, the convicted person to be killed is wrapped in a sheet and partly buried. Male convicts are buried from the waist down, while women are buried deeper to prevent the breasts from becoming exposed...

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Security&loid=8.0.427604267&par=

[ourbluenation]

1. i'm gonna be sick.

[ourbluenation]

2. sweet jesus - that's tomorrow. what is to be done about this? i wannd do something..

write
scream
yell

[Lenore]

50. :::tears:::

This story overwhelmed me with horror and sadness. I explored further and it seems that these executions have been stayed (for the moment), mostly due to the protests of Norway, God Bless them!!

http://www.pr-inside.com/norway-says-iran-to-halt-stonings-r159396.htm

[ourbluenation]

66. thank for the link - her stay of exec seems to have a lot of international support.

[SteelPenguin]

98. the benefits of engagement

It allows countries to apply pressure for things like this. Whereas our relationship with Iran is almost entirely onesided at this point, in their favor. They don't give a shit about what we do or say, and we have to be worried about them having one hand on the spigot.

I'm not saying we should send them billions in foreign aid, and suck their cock, I'm just saying that when it comes to Iran we're behind the 8 ball currently. Luckily there are countries out there like Norway able to do something about it.

[angstlessk]

3. Damn..how barbaric..in Saudi Arabia.they would just behead her

we need to get behind the beheaders..and leave the stoners in the wayside!

[ShortnFiery]

5. How bout' just crop off an ear? or a finger? or a hand? like the good OLD SAUDIS?

[Marrah_G]

4. The Iranian fanbois will be here soon defending the "culture"

[ShortnFiery]

9. There are many beautiful aspects with regard to Persian culture if you cease with HYPE.

We have no right to be "self righteous" when we have breeched our own Constitution and have admittedly TORTURED prisoners of war.

No, it's ALL horrible, but I won't be a hypocrite and censure Iran without censuring an number of OTHER countries who have brutal laws. :shrug:

[Marrah_G]

22. Come talk to me when we start stoning single mothers to death okay?

[DeSwiss]

167. I swear!

:thumbsup:

[WinkyDink]

40. Yes, PERSIAN. IRANIAN, not so much. And we can condemn the excesses of BOTH Iran and the U.S.,

can we not?

[QC]

158. You mean it's not a competition? Wow!

One would never know that from reading many of the posts here.

[BoneDaddy]

102. Who is defending that?

This whole board has exposed and called out this administration. I really struggle with the radical Islamic apologists on this board though.
Criticizing this insane fundamentalist religion does not mean every aspect of their culture is wrong or bad.

[Solo_in_MD]

15. Its not about Iran, its about islam

[Malikshah]

70. actually it's more about the culture-- numerous academic studies have shown that

oppression of women in the Muslim world stems more from an overarching patriarchal culture in some elements of the society.

But hey, whatever gets you off.

[Solo_in_MD]

86. and others have said the opposite

Many cultures became more violent as there were overtaken by islam

[Malikshah]

93. Wow-- that is about the most ill-informed, bigoted, illogical, wrong-headed

statement.

What color is the sky in your world.

Would love to get a quote.

[Solo_in_MD]

95. Study up on nothern Africa after the arival of Islam

It should disturb your current prejudices

[Malikshah]

99. Prejudices? How ironic you should use that term.

No academic studies have shown any such thing.

Now, bigoted screeds by pseudo-intellectuals from the Bat Yeor Steve Emerson school of Islamic studies....

[HardRocker05]

90. correct; religion is nothing more than a reflection of culture. as cultures change, so do their

their religions, even when said religions are claimed to be absolute and unchanging. people see what they want to see in their scriptures and religious histories based on their present culture.

[Reterr]

79. Are you on the wrong site?

:wtf:

[Solo_in_MD]

85. Is there something unprogressive about opposing religious based violence?

[HardRocker05]

91. as an atheist, i won't hesitate to criticise religion, but the issue here is really culture, not rel

not religion. if you look at the Quran, which is supposed to be the basis of islam, it is really very similar to the bible, except that the bible gives a lot more history and fables, shall we say. what makes islam different than christianity in practice is that most christian countries are relatively liberal, secular western countries, while most muslim countries are less modern, very patriarchal, traditionalistic, and absolutely faith based. turn the clock back a few hundred years and christian countries were in pretty much the same situation as muslim countries are today.

[Solo_in_MD]

94. You need to read more than just the Quran, take a look at the sharia

and then maybe experience some of it up close. Then look at muslims in western countries, even those reared there, and consider their statements and actions (Australia comes to mind). Having done all of the above, I can assure you, the issue is not a patriarchal culture. Look at India with its culture and then look at the behavior of the muslims there as well.

Islam would deny rights to all other religions, destroy any semblance of women's rights, and take us back to 7th century. It exhibits this behavior regardless of region, nation, or locale. To blame it on a particular culture is to be an enabler. There are no free speech rights or any rights if it in their view infringes, defames, or insults islam. People died in countries where those cartoons were never even published!

Yes I am passionate on this, but then again, I have good reason to be. See http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Solo_in_MD/1

[SteelPenguin]

100. Yeah look at Muslims raised in Western countries

"67% of U.S. Muslims have a college degree, versus 44% of the general population. The U.S. average income is $42,000; 66% of U.S. Muslims earn over $50,000 and 26% over $100,000, according to Allied Media Corp. "
-- Adweek 4.30.07

U.S. Muslims tend to be more educated, and earn more money than the average American. They also tend to be exemplary American's. You imply that a Muslim American is incapable of being a good American. The Wall Street Journal would disagree with you.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007151

"21% of Muslim Americans intermarry, according to the 2001 Religious Identification Survey of the City University of New York--close to the national rate of 22% of Americans who marry outside their religion. And because 64% of Muslim Americans are foreign born, there is reason to expect that figure to grow among second and third generations."

Saying that the Taliban or Jangaweed and the Imam's who cover them are true reprsentatives of Islam, or that you should judge a tree by the fruit it bears is incredibly ignorant and single focused. These regimes use lies and highly incorrect treatments of religious texts to acrue them personal power. Impling that Muslim American's are basically no different is rude, insulting, and whatver the term for racist is that applies to hating and disparaging an entire group of people, even if that group isn't a 'race' per se.

[Marrah_G]

104. It's the Sharia Law that is the problem

From where I sit, the Muslims I know moved here so they live without the oppressive laws of so-called "holy" men and so there daughters would have more choices in their future. When you create laws based on religion it never works well. When you make your religious leaders your government leaders it creates a very nasty atmosphere. Our country's founders realized this.

[SteelPenguin]

106. It's important to note that Sharia Law is not the same as Islam

well it is, but Sharia is more a system of how to devise laws (using the Quran) rather than an actual set of laws. Mesh this with the disparate nature of Islam, the ability of pretty much any radical to call himself an Imam, and any Imam's ability to create "Sharia Laws" and Fatwas and we have a problem.

Turkey is a secular democratic muslim country. THey have their issues yes, but it's a far cry from the Taliban. They realize the same things that our countries founders did, that religion and government need to remain separate. Iraq under Saddam was a secular muslim country. Though it wasn't a democracy women had equal rights, held top posts, were scientsts and doctors and academics and didn't wear their veils. Lebanon has always had a fairly liberal aesthetic when it comes to these areas.

Yes there are problem countries, but they shouldn't be held up as a example of every single member and nation which particpates in that religion.

[Marrah_G]

107. Well said

[Exultant Democracy]

109. Dude way to use faulty info to make your point

if you look at the recent Muslim immigrants to Europe even up the the 3rd generation you are still looking at the same cultural influences.

What you need to do is look at the Muslim populations in Europe that have been long standing and integrated hundreds of years ago. These Muslims are culturally identical to Europeans, they don't pray five times a day, they drink booze and if you tried to put a head scarf on one of their women you better expect to get slapped.

In fact I know a few hundred Bosnian refugees who fled their country back in the 90's because they were being slaughtered by their xtian neighbors (yes I mean neighbors, my friend came home from school one day and he childhood playmates shot at him.)

In fact if you look over the last few generations conversion to the Muslim faith has been one of the best indicators that inmate once released will not be back (unlike the majority of inmates.)

[ProgressiveAmPatriot]

148. It is religion, faith to be more precise, not Islam

Whenever "I have faith that" becomes a "logical" justification for public policy or legal decisions, there are problems. After all, faith is a belief despite an absence of evidence. This leads to problems at home and abroad. I want religious progressives to play a stong role in the progressive movement. Dr. King was inspirational, however, his moral authority didn't come from the bible or faith. The way I know this is that he didn't go around quoting the passages which endorse (or at least don't forbid) slavery and he didn't ask us to simply have faith that their would one day be civil rights in this country. He upheld the principles of fairness and equality, which are secular progressive values. Everywhere religious progressives take solid, fact based positions, they are refusing to follow the basic prescription of religion which is faith. "Have Faith" or "Just believe" does not make for sound policy. Without faith, I do not know how you justify preventing scientists from carrying out promising embryonic stem cell research which is needed to improve people's quality of life and hopefully save lives. Without faith, I do not know how you can deny evolution. Without faith, I do not know how you can justify the concept of a God's Chosen People. Without faith, I do not know how you can get someone to strap a bomb to their chest and blow them self up in a crowded bus.

[jobycom]

19. The bigots will soon be here bashing all Muslims and pretending we are perfect.

See how annoying that is? I haven't seen anyone defend this stoning, I've just heard your reassurance that someone will. What's your point on DU, to have discussions or to, pardon the expression, throw stones?

[Reterr]

78. Of course just in case "they" don't show up to wave pom-poms about the stoning of this

poor woman, then lets just try to "smoke" them out with some pre-emptive flaming eh :eyes:....
I have almost never seen a non-troll poster here defend this sort of basic violation of human rights. Most regular DUers may say something when people start saying things like the "problem is with Islam" etc. and they should. And not all people are flat caricatures.
You can oppose bigotry against Islamic people and think this sort of backward thinking/such actions disgusting and horrific.

[Marrah_G]

82. Re-reading my post I am realizing I worded it badly

I meant it to mean the Iranian government fanbois. There are a certain group that seem to love the Iranian president and his administration because they hate Bush as much as we do.

I was wrong in the wording and didn't realize it until just now.

My apologies. I didn't mean to sound anti-iranian. I am however, anti Iranian government.

[MonkeyFunk]

6. Ugh... how horrible

It'll be a good day when we get fundamentalists out of every government.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

138. seconded. all fundamentalist religious bigots drain the humanity out of people.

[rzemanfl]

7. Remember all the beheading propaganda about the Taliban?

Remember the "if the international community built us a facility for public executions we wouldn't have to use the soccer stadium the international community built for us for public executions?" Remember the incubators in Kuwait? The Saudis behead people all the time and they are great pals of *'s. Remember who * wants to attack next. This stoning story may be true. Should we nuke 'em?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

11. I'm Sorry, What Was Your Point Supposed To Be?

I wasn't totally sure.

[rzemanfl]

13. Well, obviously we should nuke these barbarians. Right?

I am just wondering who benefits from a story like this? Is it anti-Iranian propaganda? Remember that in World War the Huns bayoneted babies and raped nuns.

[Marrah_G]

23. No need to nuke them

Talking again and trying to negotiate some change, especially among a much more liberal younger generation would work better.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

41. You Still Have Shown No Point.

I find it a bit simplistic to think that every story would have to have some 'benefit' to somebody. Maybe, just maybe, it's just a goddamn news story. Maybe, just maybe, it is an atrocious act of brutal violence that deserves attention.

What is your point in mocking the intent? You still haven't made it clear. Are you trying to put forth a silly premise that this story is designed as a trick to convince people to nuke Iran? I hope not, as I'd consider that to be a monumentally flawed deduction and distasteful minimization of what this story represents.

[rzemanfl]

111. Sorry, I just don't trust the media anymore about anything. n/t

[ShortnFiery]

17. Yeah, I'm waiting for another hype type "babies thrown out of incubator" stories.

Hey, yes, they are brutal in Iran, but NOT NEAR as brutal as when The Shah was in Power. He had secret police that were evil personified - the SS were rolling over in their graves screeching, "God you beautiful sadistic bastards!." :scared:

Therefore, before YOU disparage another *sovereign country*, consider our own mess here in America and also the GREAT DEMOCRACIES of our *Best Buddy Nations* = Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Communist Red China. :wow:

[Raskolnik]

72. Yes. Yes. Yes. They sure do. Iran. No.

Now what the hell is your point supposed to be?

[rzemanfl]

114. Apparently none. I am just suspicious of atrocity stories about

our next "enemies."

[bluestateguy]

8. That's not a culture I respect

If that makes me a bigot, fine.

[ShortnFiery]

12. Can you discern between the Persian culture and their brutal laws? - but THEIR laws.

You are making a horrible mistake if you choose to EVALUATE the ENTIRE PERSIAN CULTURE on the basis of their civil and criminal laws. That's a very small part of their beautiful culture: People, Customs, language, music, etc. :shrug:

[Solo_in_MD]

16. Its not Persian, its islam

[ShortnFiery]

20. Hello, Iran is PERSIAN, Iraq is ARAB. You are not being inclusive. n/t

[Solo_in_MD]

24. My point was that stoning is not part of Persian culture, its Islamic

[ShortnFiery]

28. Ok, and my point is that Communist China KILLS too, so does Saudi Arabia.

The most important point is that Iran is a *sovereign nation* and as such, we are free to protest with Amnesty International BUT DAMMIT if I will not try to stop Dear Leader and his warmongering neo-cons from bombing the hell out of many INNOCENT people who will be footnoted as "collateral damage." :(

[Raskolnik]

76. (Insert Nation Here) Does it Too is beside the point.

You're arguing an issue that, to my knowledge, no one is disputing. No one in this discussion is arguing that this state-sponsored brutality is sufficient justification for war. NO ONE. Similarly, no one is arguing that Iran is somehow unique in its mistreatment of its own citizens. No one is defending Saudi Arabia criminal laws, no one is defending China's human rights record. NO ONE.

If you are unable to simultaneously hold the *sovereign* Iranian regime in utter contempt while opposing military action against Iran, please don't assume the other posters on this thread are also so limited.

[HardRocker05]

92. it's not islam, it's the culture. look, religion is just a rorschach (sp?) test for the people who

practice it. they imagine that their god tells them to do exactly what they already believed was right.

[smirkymonkey]

33. Persian is not synonymous with Islam or Sharia law.

Persia and the Persian culture was around long before Islam came into existence and Persia's official religion was Zoroastrianism until it was conquered by Islamic Arabs in the 7th Century. Their culture was (and still is) beautiful with the exception of the ugliness that radical Islam has imposed upon it.

This woman is not going to die because of the Persian culture, but because of the misogynistic, hateful, ignorant brutality of Islamic fundamentalism and Sharia law.

[Marrah_G]

39. Bingo

I would love to eound up all the religious zealot leaders and drop them on a dewserted island. They can spend a lifetime hurting each other, rather then innocent people.

[ShortnFiery]

54. OK, let's also plan our attack on HATEFUL Communist China that kills girl babies and executes scores

of dissidents every damn day? No religion there, but a whole lot of evil, none-the-less.

Why don't we just PREACH and BOMB them all instead of accept that they are *sovereign* nations?

[smirkymonkey]

56. You really didn't read my post, did you. I never said anything

about attacking them.

[ShortnFiery]

57. True, You implied that radical islam was equivalent to EVIL - I get nervous with the all inclusive

evil-doer label. Therefore, I was just reminding you that Communist China is NO LESS brutal to their people.

There's no need to get in a lather ... work through humanitarian groups, but realize too that *our best buddies* The Saudis' and Pakistan practice Sharia law?

[smirkymonkey]

63. My point was that it was not the brutal laws of PERSIAN culture,

but of Islamic law. You had stated that someone was criticizing Persian culture and I was trying to distinguish that Persian (Iranian) culture was not inherently Islamic. The culture was around for about twelve centuries before it was conquered by Arab Muslims, therefore it was inaccurate to blame Iranaians (or Persians) specifically.

I do not condone bombing anybody, but I do despise all fundamental religious nutcases (and political nutcases) who bruatally murder innocent citizens for minor offenses.

[ShortnFiery]

64. Well then SM, we agree. I understand more fully now.

:hi:

[Strelnikov_]

74. Killing prisoners to harvest their body parts shows true entrepreneurial spirit, though

They show real promise. I think we can do business with them.

[jobycom]

14. See? If we drop tons and tons of bombs on innocent civilians, we can stop this!

[Marie26]

18. Amnesty Int. urges protests

Amnesty International has protested this stoning, and they are urging people to contact the Iranian Judiciary Head. The Amnesty Int. web-site has a form letter & email addresses for the official. Please, if you are outraged by this action, send an email or fax. It's not much, but it's something.

Iran: Stop imminent public execution by stoning

According to activists involved in the ‘Stop Stoning Forever’ campaign in Iran, Mokarrameh Ebrahimi and the unnamed man were sentenced to death after conviction of adultery.

Under article 83 of Iran’s Penal Code, execution by stoning is prescribed for adultery committed by a married man or a married woman. Under Iranian law, adultery can only be proved by the testimony of eyewitnesses (the number required varying for different types of adultery), a confession by the defendant (repeated four times), or the judge's "knowledge" that the adultery has taken place. In this case, the basis for the conviction of adultery was the judge’s “knowledge”, apparently on the basis that they had a child together.

Find out more:

Send urgently the appeal letter below by fax or email to the Iranian authorities calling for an immediate halt to the scheduled executions of Mokarrameh Ebrahimi and the unnamed man.

You can also fax the appeal letter to the Qazvin State Government Office using the following numbers: + 98 281 3682941 or + 98 281 3682895

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions_details.asp?ActionID=289

[ShortnFiery]

26. Yes, the Saudis' use large Soccer Stadiums to do their Public Be-heading and other de-capitations.

I was in Singapore when Teachers four miles away at a local school were be-headed and had their heads mounted on sticks. That was during 1964. :wow:

Kindly consider that WE (Americans in General) ARE SPOILED and SHELTERED?

In fact, the rest of the World is MUCH MORE HARSH AND CAUSTIC ... NO, fellow Americans, the entire world is not like our "lotto winning - SHELTERED - SPOILED America.

America does NOT, I repeat, WE (USA) do not RULE over other *sovereign countries* and we should NOT go out of our way to stir things up. IMO, it's not only a horrible way to practice diplomacy and find common ground - remember the adage "What goes around, comes around" - our sins and misdeeds will come back to US. :scared:

[Marie26]

27. It's horrible

In the time it takes to write a DU post, you can protest this stoning via Amnesty Int.'s site. I hope you will.

[ShortnFiery]

29. It's terrible, BUT it's THEIR *sovereign* nation, the USA has no right to BOMB IT!

NOT that it is any of your business, but I belong to Amnesty International - I joined during the 1988 - probably when you were still in grade school? :shrug:

[Marie26]

31. Dear Lord

I'm not asking you to BOMB THEM, I'm asking you to send a measly email to try to save a woman's life. You've ranted on this thread, maybe take 5 minutes to actually do something? If you're in Amnesty Int., I would think you'd also be upset about this violation of human rights, and want to help stop it, instead of engaging in apologetics & flame wars instead. My mistake.

[ShortnFiery]

36. Hey, why don't YOU say a prayer for my best friend who threw himself in front of a bus?

My point: Although I served honorably in the Army, I have a very strong Anti-Authority streak. Even more distasteful to me than Authority figures, are those busy-bodies who seemingly *self righteously PREACH for people to "do this" and "do that." :thumbsdown:

Here's a thought Marie26, instead of trying to BOSS me around, why don't you consider minding YOUR OWN business? Very few folks respect being TOLD to do something ... it's over the top. :(

[Marie26]

42. Fine

SOOOO sorry I posted a Amnesty Int. link, and a way for people to protest violations of human rights. What was I thinking? On a progressive board, no less! And I wasn't talking to you, by the way, you just jumped in to insult & flame me. If you don't want to do anything, fine, but why the need to insult someone who is? Anti-authority streak = jumping on people who want to stop authorities that stone women? Whatever.

[ShortnFiery]

47. No insults were EVER intended toward you - only that I don't appreciate being ORDERED to do

something by "a stranger."

Thanks, I think. :shrug:

[Marie26]

51. No thanks.

So you WON'T protest this, even as member of Amnesty Int, because someone posted the method to do so? That's mature. Your own issues are more important than two people who will die tomorrow? Apparently. I don't care if you like me or not, but to let your annoyance make you decide NOT to do anything about a serious issue is beyond immature.

[ShortnFiery]

53. I don't hold onto grudges, so if you forgive me we'll talk again - Peace Be With You

:hug:

[Ladyhawk]

55. You are arguing with "ignored"...

This happens a lot. I notice someone arguing with some jerk named "ignored." Too bad I can't see what asinine arguments he/she/it is making. Hint: the ignore feature is your friend. :)

[ShortnFiery]

58. Hey, Ladyhawk, the sentiment goes both ways :-)

"I notice someone arguing with some jerk named "ignored."

How mature. ;)

[Ladyhawk]

115. If an "ignored" person spouts off beneath you and you can't see

what vile thing he/she/it spewed...does it make a sound?

[ShortnFiery]

143. We all lose when we don't try to, at least, understand one another's view. n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

60. Why would you belong to an organization

Whose sole purpose is to interfere with the sovereignty of other nations and their right to treat their citizens any way they like? :shrug:

[Jed Dilligan]

21. US: Man will be raped to death Thursday for selling marijuana 11 years ago

Probably.

[spanone]

25. Stoning, Lethal Injection, Electrocution....all the same.

[Marrah_G]

30. You must not really know what a stoning is if you think that they are the same

Its like comparing being shot in the head to being slowly roasted alive.

[ShortnFiery]

32. I'm with spanone on this .. DEAD IS DEAD. whether it's quartering, stoning, beheading, etc.

I've got to level with you - the people who truly suffer the most (must live-on with the horrific memories) are the people who view the carnage. :shrug: But you're right, I'd much rather be be-headed than stoned. But I'd rather be stoned than burn up in a fire. Oh well. :eyes:

[Marrah_G]

37. Not only the ones who view it, but the populace who participate

They do so because they feel they have to. If they protest or do not join in that bring attention to them. The whole thing sickens me and I keep hoping and praying we will get a leader soon who knows how to communicate with others and rather then threatening bombs, offer a hand to those young Iranians who do not like the way their country is and want to be free from these oppressive religious asshats.

[ShortnFiery]

43. Yes, excellent thoughts - The Iranians are electing more moderate leaders.

Instead of overthrowing the regime, I say let these young people vote and SLOWLY take over? - I have faith that they will turn out to be much more tolerant and moderate than their fathers and mothers. :shrug:

[Marrah_G]

46. It all comes down to getting the hard-line fundies out of power

The young Iranian population needs to feel like the rest of the world is behind them, to help give them the courage to change their world.

[ShortnFiery]

49. Yes! It's the right wing religious nut-balls that love to abuse their power.

Yes, so true. :hi:

[Jonathan50]

97. "Slowly roasted alive"

Hmm... Sounds like electrocution to me..

[Marrah_G]

108. Electrocution is not the same as being slowly roasted

If you had to pick a way to die, would you choose electrocution or being burned at the stake?

[Lenore]

44. Not exactly...

There are specifications that dictate the size of the stones that will be hurled at these people. They can't be big enough to cause death in one or two strikes nor so small as to not qualify as a stone. Hence a purposeful, calculated method of ensuring that the condemned suffer greatly during their last moments of life.

That would be like zapping someone with smaller amounts of electricity, not enough to kill with the first one or two zaps yet while ensuring the multiple zaps are strong enough to cause suffering and ultimately death.

Respectfully, not the same.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

45. You've Got To Be Fucking Kidding.

[leftynyc]

119. Since when does this country

execute someone for having a child out of wedlock. Moral relativism is lazy thinking.

[Rex]

34. The Islamic Republic denies issuing stoning death sentences and carrying them out.

Of course they do.

[jmowreader]

125. Notice the weasel phrase there

"and carrying them out."

I remember back in the late 1980s the Saudis caught an American stealing a car and sentenced him to amputation of his "right hand and left foot." The world was aghast, but a Saudi legal scholar explained the judge was just trying to put the fear of Allah into this guy--no Saudi believed they were actually going to cut off body parts because the prescribed sentence is amputation of the LEFT hand and RIGHT foot. Also, amputation is the punishment for the third offense of stealing (unlike the American three-strikes laws that let them use ANY three offenses to lock you up for life, the Saudis only amputate if you STEAL three times) and this was his first.

They let the guy stew in prison for about six months to contemplate the error of his ways. On the day he was scheduled for punishment, they got him out of the joint, dressed him in the proper attire, took him to the place where they did it, told him Allah had decided to be merciful on this day, drove him to the airport and sent him back to New York.

In this case, they might sentence a LOT of people to stoning...then commute their sentences to Twenty Years on the date for execution. Or they might really stone her to death. Hard to say, but that "and carrying them out" thing gives me faint hope.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. All in the name of a loving and benevolent God. Who enjoys a little human sacrifice in his name.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

48. Ahhh Forget It.

[WinkyDink]

38. Tell me again why I should respect this culture.

And no, I don't respect my own, either.

[ShortnFiery]

52. Because just like us "little people" in the USA, the right wing crazies are still ruling ...

However, there are good signs and elections of moderates within the past ten years. Therefore, if we don't make the Iranian people FEAR the USA, these moderates will come into their own with a basically YOUNG Iranian Population. :shrug:

[Mind_your_head]

59. Can DU'er's help to prevent this from happening?

Rhetorical question: How does stoning this woman do ANYTHING at all that is POSITIVE? "Some people THINK" it will prevent others from having sex before marriage, but a LOOOONG history - thru culture & time - shows "THAT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN". People have ALWAYS had sex before marriage, not everyone, but IT HAPPENS! And, some people - always the WOMAN - gets 'caught/blamed'. The man walks away only as much as the woman 'allows' it or not.

That's the truth.

[ShortnFiery]

62. Can DUers prevent CHINA from executing political dissidents?

Dead is dead! The DEAD don't care how good of corpse they present for the funeral. :shrug: It's the living who are traumatized. Communist China has "most favored nation" status - let's start with them?

[Mind_your_head]

65. Where would all the junk in my house come from, if it weren't for China?

:sarcasm:

Oh wait.....the USA USED to produce things of long lasting value....innovative machines, we had GOOD IDEAS!!! And then China bought those machines, the ideas were purchased & shelved. China copied the machines, and is doing the same work the US used to do 'on the cheap'.....guess we're gonna be stuck in the 20th century for a LOOOONG time.

Back to the original point: I wish there was something we could do to help stop this poor woman from meeting the terrible fate that has been meted out to her. :cry:

[ShortnFiery]

69. I hope you can make a difference.

However, every day throughout the World Community people are brutally tortured and murdered ... each day. For trying to make a difference in one person's life, that's to be lauded. :thumbsup:

However, I think that, as a nation, we need to keep focused mostly on OUR Behavior toward our own citizens and consider CHECKING those nations we consider "our allies" with regard to human rights. We should pressure these countries first because we have their friendship and more diplomatic leverage.

I don't mean to be obtuse, but I've lived all over the world, to include Iran (agent Mike can verify - and he will :blush:), therefore, I have a *personal interest* in not seeing this beautiful country blown to "kibbles and bits" with our smart bombs.

[BlooInBloo]

61. Aaah.... The sweet stench of religion.

[Mind_your_head]

67. There's good and bad in everything.....including 'religion'

Everyone is looking for the black/white...but most of "this life" is gray. There must be discernment, thinking.....

Peace,
M_Y_H

[BlooInBloo]

68. True. And some things have more of one than the other.

[Canuckistanian]

71. We never hear about MEN being stoned, now do we?

Obviously, it took BOTH of the sexes to be involved in this "adultery". Why is the man who impregnated her not getting the EXACT SAME sentence?

Honest to Koresh, why the Hell don't they just kill ALL women if they hate them that much?

[BlooInBloo]

73. Don't tempt them.

[Mind_your_head]

88. Don't tempt 'who' then????

Women who go after the 'root' of their pregnancy "problem"? Women don't get pregnant by themselves, do they? I've got 3 kids....my ex hubby pays me $500/month. He lives in a $750,000+ house - and me and my kids are barely scrapping by - largely do to my ingenuity to 'make it all work' - do you think that's fair?

Who 'pays' for these children with "time & talent"....?????

It's not him, buddy.....it's 'ME' ....and it's ALL Mothers who do the same! And then we mother's 'who are "somewhat" successful are punished'.....

Resentful .....YES! I AM. Take it to the Bank!

on edit: all of you "divorce lawyers"....I can't trust any of you who get involved in such a dirty business as divorce anyway. Who would want to involve themselves in other people's trauma like that???? OH, an 'opportunity' to take advantage of people under extreme stress.....

I dislike (hate) you all....and the 'work' you do......

[BlooInBloo]

112. Um, huh?

[lukasahero]

136. I think it was just an expression not an indictment

"Don't tempt them" wasn't a directive toward women not to tempt men. I think it was supposed to be a saracstic challenge to the poster who suggested "they" just kill all women - as in, don't tempt them to kill all women because they might just do it.

Take a breath. I understand this probably feels personal but not everyone is against you here.

[Marrah_G]

75. Who would cook dinner and have the babies then?

[Canuckistanian]

77. Yes. Women have their status to these nutcases

Right above dogs, but somewhat lower than cattle.

[ourbluenation]

83. He did receive the same sentence. He is to be stoned too so their kid becomes an orphan

triple tragedy

[Reterr]

80. "the punishment of stoning is designed to cause the victim great pain before death"

:puke:

[Clark2008]

81. And no thought as to who's caring or will care for the 11-year-old

child once its mother has been killed?

I can't find in this story whether the woman was still raising the child or if it was adopted.

[JVS]

84. Terrible

[porphyrian]

87. Good thing our Iraq invasion and sabre rattling has kept the Iranian fundies in power...

It would've been such a shame if they had continued to Westernize and democratize - we wouldn't get to be responsible, however indirectly, for this woman's stoning. That's just so cool.

[Mind_your_head]

89. Western women get 'stoned' every day.....

it's just not so blatant in 'western' society. But it's DEFINITELY 'there'.

[Marrah_G]

96. Bullshit

Saying crap like that totally marginalizes what Women in these Islamic hard-line regimes go through. Please tell me when the last time a woman in a western country was declared guilty of having a child out of wedlock and was then marched into the town square where the men, women and children of her town pelted her with small rock killing her slowly and painfully while she is buried up to her fucking neck in the dirt so no breast might accidentally be shown.

As a western woman you have freedoms they could not even imagine and you are clueless as to how fortunate you are to be born female here and not there.

[BoneDaddy]

101. But this is a religion of peace

remember? And moderate muslims everywhere are speaking out about it in masse. I think, wait, I don't really see a large percentage.

"women are buried deeper to prevent the breasts from becoming exposed..."

Sorry but what a fucked up religion. I reject religion to begin with but this form of Islam has got to be the most vile.

[uppityperson]

113. Fundamentalists are vile.

[NashVegas]

103. On the Bright Side

At least they won't have to move the body far for burial.












I'm sorry; you expect me to put much thought into this piece of war-building propaganda?

[alarimer]

105. The religious Taliban in the US wants to be able to do the same thing

I just read American Fascists. The sooner the world is rid of fundamentalist religious freaks the better we all will be. I do not believe I have to "respect" a culture that does things like this; I will not be an apologist for this culture or any other that does this. It is true that we are not perfect but we are not as evil as this. And it IS evil. It's evil in Iran; it is evil in Utah or New York or China.

[BoneDaddy]

110. I don't buy it...yet

I am sure there are freaks of the "Christian" faith in America that are far out, bizarre and evil, but an honest comparison of Christianity and Islam demonstrates a huge discrepancy in behavior.

Where I would agree that we need to confront irrational religious thought whether it be that here or there, Christianity and Judaism have, at least, embraced modernity and have liberal and moderate wings.

That does not mean I embrace them, but religious fundamentalists are kept in check in America by the secular realm and we have the separation of church and state whereas they are pretty much dominated by theocracy.

[BlooInBloo]

116. You're right. Christians have probably killed more people than all other relgions combined.

[Louie the XIV]

117. It's amazing the hatred some of these 3rd world cultures have

for the people who bring us all into the world. It's shameful that in the year 2007 any individual could have such a disgusting and perverse opinion of women, let alone a whole religion and culture.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftynyc]

120. Are you saying you think

islamic fundamentalists treat women well???? And don't try the moral relativism with me - it's bullshit and nothing but lazy thinking.

[BlooInBloo]

121. Well.... *did* I say that? lol!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

124. Why Did You Call The Poster A Freeper? What's Your Excuse? Do Ya Think You're Acting Appropriately?

What you did was unfair and completely inappropriate. You should apologize.

[Orsino]

122. BTK.

Bound-and-tortured killers.

Bloodthirsty fools.

[ShortnFiery]

139. Yes, when our smart MOAB (mother of all bombs) miss their target, and they often do

I'd imagine those babies and livestock feel GREAT PAIN as they are blown to kibbles and bits and bits and bits.

My Point: How about that Catholic Inquisition? Don't kid yourselves to think that we are "all above it now."

Instead of moral relativism and passing judgment on entire segments of the world community, how about we keep our own house in order by helping to close down GITMO?

[Raskolnik]

146. Why do you assume a person can't do both?

Condemning this act does not mean a person doesn't also oppose bad acts performed by the U.S. I, along with the majority of posters here, am perfectly capable of being horrified by a regime that would stone a woman to death for having a child out of wedlock without needing a litany bad U.S. acts to remind me of what I should really care about.

[ShortnFiery]

156. Because at THIS TIME in our Nation's History, some very powerful people are itching

to stir up the masses against an entire nation, IRAN.

I'm not saying that this law isn't barbaric, but at least we hear about it and get Amnesty International and other Nations involved to intercede. :shrug:

The monthly be-heading ceremonies they have in Saudi Arabia does not get leaked.

No, I fully respect your points, but PLEASE be sensitive of the *covert agenda* that our political ruling class is trying to play on our sensitivities now? As I mentioned above, I was born in Teheran, Iran, so I have a very personal stake at that beautiful country with many warm and wonderful people NOT be blown to kibbles and bits.

[Orsino]

165. How about we pass judgment only on the torture killers?

Ignoring some and protesting others would seem to be the definition of moral relativism.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. Didn't a mob just beat a guy to death in Texas?

For being the passenger in the car of a guy who accidently hit a kid?

[Raskolnik]

126. Yeah, that's pretty much the same thing as state-sponsored stoning

as punishment for having a child out of wedlock.

Wait a minute...its not even remotely similar. So what was the point of mentioning it?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

127. Weren't we just talking about culture?

Is Iranian culture really more barbaric than American?

Talk about moral relativism.

[Raskolnik]

128. No, you just posted a non-sequitur.

Is Iranian culture really more barbaric than American?

I don't know. I do know, however, that I refuse to paralyzed by relativism when I see something so undeniably fucked up as this.

I don't have to live in a perfect society to recognize that stoning someone to death as a punishment for having a child out of wedlock is something that has no place in the civilized world. My government's criminal justice system may be flawed, but those flaws do not change the nature of this horrific act one bit.



edit for sentence fragment--not to change content, just to seem like less of an idjit

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

130. Yeah, and our society just beat to death an innocent passenger.

While our government's slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Iraq.

[Raskolnik]

132. Doe that make this incident any less horrible or any less worthy of condemnation?

Or does making this an exercise in compare & contrast just lend the appearance of thoughtfulness?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

133. Of course not.

So can we please knock off the us vs. them bullshit?

[Raskolnik]

137. YOU made it about us vs. them by bringing up the incident in Texas

It doesn't have to be "us vs. them", but it sure as hell should be "us vs. anyone who would condone STONING a woman to death for having a child out of wedlock".

If you can't oppose that without reservation, I'm not sure what you'd be keeping it in the holster for.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

140. No.

The anti-Iranian and islamophobic bigots in this thread are trying to make it us vs. them.

[Raskolnik]

155. And you're not helping

When you try to argue that a state-sponsored stoning as punishment for having a child out of wedlock is analogous to a mob action in Texas, you lose a big chunk of credibility.

Anyone who says that this act by the Iranian regime is indicative of the Iranian people as whole is an idiot, as is anyone who argues that incidents such as these justify military action. However, anyone who is so paralyzed by relativism that they cannot respond to actions like this with unequivocal condemnation is also guilty of a knee-jerk, unthinking response.

[Progressive_In_NC]

134. Some other examples of Iranian justice for women

From a quick google search of amnesty:


Atefeh Rajabi (f)

Atefeh Rajabi was a sixteen year-old Iranian girl who was executed in Iran after being sentenced to death by an Iranian judge, Haji Rezaii, for allegedly having committed "acts incompatible with chastity" (having sexual intercourse with an older man), and for removing her hijab while arguing with her judge in court.
Atefeh reportedly had no access to legal counsel during the trial and was allegedly not believed to be mentally competent. Her death sentence was upheld by a Supreme Court of conservative mullahs.

Haji Rezaii, the religious judge, was reportedly so incensed with Atefeh’s "sharp tongue" during the trial that he traveled to Tehran to convince the mullahs of the Supreme Court to uphold the death sentence. She was publicly hanged in Neka, Iran, in August 2004, by the judge himself. Her body was left hanging for some time so people could see what happened to teenagers who committed acts incompatible with chastity. Amnesty International, as well as human rights organizations from the international community at large, declared the execution to be a crime against humanity and against children of the world.

Atefeh's body was allegedly removed from the grave soon after the burial by unknown perpetrators.

BBC2 showed a documentary about the execution of Atefeh, called "Execution of a teenage girl." It can be viewed here. (Also on our Multimedia page)The Guardian has published an article about the making of the documentary, written by the director.


------------------------------------------------

Mona Mahmudnizhad (f)

16 year old Mona were together with 9 other Bahai women executed in June 1983. The primary charge against her was teaching Bahá’í children’s classes. Because her youth and conspicuous innocence became a symbol of the group in prison, she was lashed on the soles of her feet with a cable and forced to walk on bleeding feet. On the day of the execution she asked to be the last in line to be executed so she could pray for the others. All she had to do to avoid execution was to denounce her faith but she refused, and instead when it was her turn, she kissed the rope and put it around her own neck.

------------------------------------------------

Dina Parnabi (f)

Dina Parnabi was an Iranian high school student, accused of smuggling forbidden literature and criticising the regime in her talks with her classmates. She was hanged on the 10th of July 1984 in a Teheran prison. The hanging was done in private and after the execution was over, her body was stripped, washed and delivered for dissection at medical school. In Iran, female bodies delivered for medical studies often show the rope or cable burns around their necks, indicating that they were all executed by hanging.

[ShortnFiery]

141. It's WARPED Sharia law, don't go pumping up a rage for an ENTIRE Nation. That's just wrong. n/t

[Progressive_In_NC]

145. I agree, unfortunately their Supreme Court is made up of the religious folks

Everything I've read indicates that their younger population is ready for a change. I'd love to see them make that change and bring Iran into the 21st century in this respect.

Persia and Iran had a long history of innovation and high culture, it's a shame to see that torn down by a few.

[ShortnFiery]

149. Our SC is filling up with Catholics, but Corporate interest reigns SUPREME.

:eyes:

[Progressive_In_NC]

153. You definately have a point there !!! n/t

[ShortnFiery]

154. How kind of you to note. Best wishes back to you. n/t

[murloc]

129. What a disgusting 'culture'

[DS1]

131. fucking savages in my opinion

not all of them, but anyone who picks up a rock

[ShortnFiery]

142. So were the Catholics, to include The Pope during our "blessed" Inquisition.

Savages, all savages ... savage country ... they're not human ... ergo let's kill them all? :eyes:

[DS1]

144. I didn't say they weren't

and nice LEAP :eyes:

[ShortnFiery]

151. As horrible as it seems we all have "a dark place" capacity to throw those stones.

We must always guard against this darker nature. Does anyone doubt that it can't happen here? Especially with the way Our Congress is doing nothing about Gonzo's breech of The Geneva Conventions? The foregoing is one good FIRST STEP. :shrug:

[Marie26]

135. Iran Stays Execution By Stoning

"Iranian authorities have halted the planned stoning to death of a man and woman convicted of adultery following international protests, it emerged tonight. Mokarrameh Ebrahimi and an unnamed man, who have spent 11 years in prison, were due to be killed tomorrow in a cemetery in the town of Takestan in western Iran.

Western diplomats in Tehran and organizations including Amnesty International and Human Rights' Watch had condemned the executions.

The Norwegian foreign minister, Jonas Gahr Stoere, summoned the Iranian ambassador to Oslo to protest that "stoning is a barbarian punishment" which violated human rights. He also told the ambassador that the Norwegian parliament's foreign affairs committee would likely cancel a planned visit to Iran next week if the stoning was carried out.

He later told Norwegian news organizations that he had received information that Iranian judicial authorities had stayed the execution."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2107534,00.html

This is great news! It proves public pressure can make a difference, even against a regime as isolated as Iran. Bushco. should take some lessons from Norway - diplomacy and negotiation can be effective methods for improving human rights.

[ShortnFiery]

147. In addition to Our Amnesty International, the intercession of Norwegian foreign minister

assisted this stay of execution. Every life saved from injustice and torture is a precious victory to be savored. Congratulations. :applause:

Now let's go, as a nation, and discipline *our friends* in China, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?

[Raskolnik]

157. But shouldn't Norway have minded its own business?

I'm sure Norway is not completely free of flaws (with apologies to any Norwegians if I am mistaken), so why was it appropriate for them to register their displeasure with the sovereign nation of Iran about an internal matter?

[ShortnFiery]

160. That's not the point. Diplomacy does work, but working people into a lather to denounce a COUNTRY.

Slamming an entire nation and it's culture only serves to promote PNAC's agenda.

That has always been my point. Just look through the "Iran bashing" comments that some people have used to trash the culture and people that make up THE ENTIRE COUNTRY?!?

We need to keep focus on DIPLOMACY. I suggest Norway's diplomats are listened to more closely because THEIR COUNTRY is not threatening to NUKE Iran. Ya think?

[Raskolnik]

163. Respectfully, I don't think that has been the argument you've made in this thread

I very much agree that diplomatic engagement will yield superior results in Iran, but that isn't the issue here. The bulk of your posts have argued that criticism of Iran over this action was inappropriate given the dubious human rights records of U.S. allies along with U.S. actions of late.

[ShortnFiery]

164. Well my true intent was masked by countering those who tie all into "Iran" the country.

That's what happens in these-type threads, many members end up bashing the entire country. Please read my posts again? I stated then as I do now, diplomacy is the best answer, not threatening to nuke them.

All I'm trying to convey, is that, please be sensitive as to why all these stories are being leaked now. There are forces in play that would love nothing else for "the masses" to hate *all those savages in Iran.*

It's the attempt to spread the hatred of "their laws" to "the people themselves" that truly shines through and through this thread. :shrug:

No, I do not apologize for these brutal laws. However, believe it or not, The Shah's regime was even more brutal. :wow: Memories are long throughout the World Community. :shrug:

[slackmaster]

150. Our country does bad thing too, so we have no right to criticize Iran for its laws

:sarcasm:

[ShortnFiery]

152. We do condone torture of prisoners - we should not "key out" one regime as MOST brutal IMO. n/t

[LSK]

159. how credible is this source?

Sorry, I see a great number of powerful forces who want a war with Iran and propaganda pieces like this make their job much easier.

How do we know this is not made up from some right wing or Israeli thinktank?

[ShortnFiery]

161. OMG! Let me loan you my fire retardant suit? I need to complete some chores.

Best wishes and "fire in the hole!" :hi:

[LSK]

162. well if the story is true, its horrible

But is it true? Whatever happened to DUers not trusting everything that is posted and questioning sources???

[Dave From Canada]

166. But Islam's a religion of peace.

[LynnTheDem]

168. Yes, just like the bible.

[ourbluenation]

169. Bumping for Michelle Maulkin who I know lurks here...

she's outraged by the human rights abuses in iran and equally outraged that those on the left don't seem to care. oh really, michelle?
i dont wanna post the link to her site - you can look it up if you want. but here's some of it...

The human rights outrage in Iran…and a challenge to Rosie O’Donnell and her ilk

snip

A challenge to Rosie and Amnesty International USA members and America’s progressive left (I know there are a few on the story, but they are far between): How about taking a day off from Bush-bashing and America-blaming to raise your voices against the mullahcracy’s brutal human rights abuses?

How about posting the FARS/ISNA photos on your blogs and calling attention to the innocent Iranian men being bloodied to a pulp for the crime of embracing Western dress?

Or how about spreading the word about the work of Nazanin Afshin Jam on behalf of Iranian minors sentenced by sharia courts to death for defending themselves against rape or for crimes against “chastity?”

Or how about joining the campaign to stop public stonings?

In her tiny lil rightie world, progressives don't care about human rights. she should get out more.