Noam Chomsky Compares Right-Wing Media to Nazi Germany

[LongTomH]

Run time: 03:19 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MHEuudJ-o0   Posted on YouTube: October 14, 2009 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: October 15, 2009 By DU Member: LongTomH Views on DU: 18736

 
From ForaTv. Chomsky on the parallels between Germany in the 20s and America today. His premise is that, the right-wingers are speaking to real grievances that ordinary people have, and redirecting them toward liberals.

[anonymous171]

1. Once again, Chomsky cuts through the bs and exposes the heart of the issue

The common people know something is up.

[AntiFascist]

57. The Nazis themselves were experts at propaganda...

redirecting the trend toward "national socialism" into fascism was a real feat. Hopefully history won't repeat itself.

[FarLeftFist]

2. Noam Chomsky is my hero and I have read ALL of his books.

Although most would regard his views as very radical (i.e. socialist anarchist) his books make you believe his views are attainable and the only true way to run society. I would definitely recommend any of his books.

[hokies]

21. Which one of his books would be a good start?

:hi:

[makeanoise]

30. i recommend 3 of his books to start with....

1) Hegemony or Survival
2) Language and Politics
3) Understanding Power

[tblue37]

80. "Manufacturing Consent." nt

[Frank Cannon]

44. He has a little book available called "What Uncle Sam Really Wants"

You can read it in a single evening. It is THE book that opened my eyes to my then-status as a "Reagan Democrat".

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

50. "The Chomsky Reader" is a nice collection, I've always thought

[RoccoR5955]

72. "Deterring Democracy" is a good one as well.

Though I would agree that the little book, "What Uncle Sam Really Wants," will get you started, and wanting for more.

[PSzymeczek]

82. "Syntactic Structures"

;)

Edited for Typo.

[Fedja]

33. Most?

Most people in Europe consider Chomsky a mainstream liberal. Sure, he's a philosopher, so he mostly speaks in the language of values and ideology rather than individual number-crunch plans, but still. His platform is a typical liberal one, and is far from "socialism" or "anarchism".

But then again, what we Europeans consider extremely conservative, the US calls centrist these days. The bar has shifted fast and hard to the right, and Chomsky will have none of it. He still stands the same ground he has for years.

I absolutely adore the man, one of the few truly great philosophers of our time that can be understood by a commoner. He thinks great thoughts, but then goes and tells them to us, rather than himself.

[NoSheep]

36. He's a linguist who philosophises (is that a word?)

;-)

I like him very much as well, yet was always blown away by how "hopeful" he seemed to be in the face of what I saw as a doomed society and planet. He seemed to have a faith in humans that I didn't share. I have wondered how someone so smart couldn't see things the way I did. I never thought I'd hear him make such a negative remark. Times MUST be worse than ever.

[Fedja]

37. Hm I don't know...

I honestly think he transcends the superficial labels of good/bad we like to use. I think Chomsky, being himself, simply illustrated that there was a connection between the GOP and a historic experience we should have learned more from.

Chomsky saw a link and he called it out in his rational, factual, and empirical style. Good or bad is not for him to decide, but for every one of us, or should I say "you", the voters. He's just telling you what one of the choices leads to with a verbal equivalent of a smug wink.

[digidigido]

59. would you say he's a cunning linguist? : )

[PSzymeczek]

83. Absolutely!

:)

[FarLeftFist]

46. Very true.

In Europe where socialism isn't a bad word, his views are very much mainstream liberal. He is a true genius in every sense of the word, hence being a professor at MIT. Yes I used the word hence. He truly is one of the great philosophers of our time. Socialism and anarchism sound scary to most westerners until they realize it has nothing to chaos and destruction, yet more about freedom and liberty. He views socialism as a form of humanitarian Govt. and anarchism as freedom from oppression of Govt. Although he puts it in far better wording and understanding then I could ever do it justice. Great to see him speak out on this subject.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

51. Chomsky has described himself as an anarchist

- specifically an anarcho-syndicalist.

[JDPriestly]

3. As one who lived in German-speaking countries for years and

who is married to a German scholar who lived through WWII in Austria, I agree with Chomsky: the right-wing media in the U.S. and the right-wing of the Republican Party are using the same kind of rhetoric that the NAZIs used. And in true Rovian fashion, they are deflecting legitimate analyses that point out that they are using NAZI-like propaganda techniques (and used them during the Bush era) by claiming loudly that Democrats and Obama are the NAZIs. Of course, for them, "NAZI" is just a bad word. They have never studied the NAZIs and have no idea what they were about or what they did -- other than the concentration camps. There was much, much, much more -- like their domination of the media with hysterical speeches and scare-tactics (my husband vividly remembers hearing this as a child). Limbaugh comes to mind. Limbaugh with his rhythmic speech and the hypnotic swaying of his body and his voice as he speaks. Limbaugh -- who speaks for dramatic effect not for the sake of honest discussion.

Even here on DU, I have heard people argue that the NAZI label should not be used for the right-wing. But, I assure you it is appropriate. Read The Lost City which describes how the right-wing gradually took over the city of Vienna and literally decimated the far-left (much further left than anything we know in the U.S.) voices there after the banks crashed and the political mood in Germany darkened and shifted further to the right.

We live in perilous times.

I speak out against Obama's appeasement of the far right here on DU. I do that not because I think Obama is a bad man but because I know how dangerous his appeasement is. That is what the center right did in Austria. They appeased the far right. They reached across the aisle. They were eventually destroyed. The far right does not tolerate any kind of dissent. They do not appease. We saw that with the Bush administration.

I am far more centrist than Chomsky on many things, but I do agree with his statement on this short video.

[bertman]

7. Thank you for giving us that information, JDPriestly.

[defendandprotect]

9. Remember that Hitler also used "god" which we've been seeing here for decades . . .

The right wing CHRISTIAN movement in American isn't grassroots -- it's created with
right wing money -- from the GOP and from wealthy right wingers who together financed
start up of Christian Coalition and Dobson's organization - Bauer's, as well.

There's a heavy veneer of CRUSADE in our attack on Afghanistan and Iraq --
and add TORTURE again to that CRUSADE menu!!

Here's an interesting interview with James Carroll who wrote "CRUSADE" about these wars
and connecting the dots to past history.

http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/05/05/int05022.html

Also overwhelmingly agree with Chomsky -- and he well knows when CRUSADES get going that
eventually Jews will be in danger.

The GOP has been studying NAZI propaganda since the Nixon administration -- and using it!!!

US/CIA also created Taliban/Al Qaeda -- Americans have to wake up to that --
AND, they worked for decades to create the violent Islamic JIHAD in Middle East and move
it along.

I'll print info on that below -- the second part has to do with the creation of Islamic JIHAD...
Please read it if you have the time!!




FIRST PART OF THIS DEALS WITH HOW US/CIA CREATED TALIBAN AND AL QAEDA . . .
TO BAIT RUSSIANS INTO AFGHANISTAN . . .!!!


SECOND PART DEALS WITH THE TEXTBOOKS --



The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs <"From the Shadows">, that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

Q: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Q: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

http://www.takeoverworld.info/brzezinski_i... ...


---------------------------------------------------

SECOND PART --


The US spent $100's of millions shooting down Soviet helicopters yet didn't spend a penny helping Afghanis rebuild their infrastructure and institutions.

They also spent millions producing jihad preaching, fundamentalist textbooks and shipping them off to Afghanistan. These were the same text books the Western media discussed in shocked tones and told their audiences were used by fundamentalist teachers to brainwash their charges and to inculcate in young Afghanis a jihad mindset, hatred of foreigners and non-Muslims etc.


Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal?

Or perhaps I should say, "Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal that's waiting to happen?"

Because it has been almost unreported in the Western media that the US government shipped, and continues to ship, millions of Islamist textbooks into Afghanistan.

Only one English-speaking newspaper we could find has investigated this issue: the Washington Post. The story appeared March 23rd.

Washington Post investigators report that during the past twenty years the US has spent millions of dollars producing fanatical schoolbooks, which were then distributed in Afghanistan.

"The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books..." -- Washington Post, 23 March 2002 (1)

According to the Post the U.S. is now "...wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism."

So the books made up the core curriculum in Afghan schools. And what were the unintended consequences? The Post reports that according to unnamed officials the schoolbooks "steeped a generation in violence."

How could this result have been unintended? Did they expect that giving fundamentalist schoolbooks to schoolchildren would make them moderate Muslims?

Nobody with normal intelligence could expect to distribute millions of violent Islamist schoolbooks without influencing school children towards violent Islamism. Therefore one would assume that the unnamed US officials who, we are told, are distressed at these "unintended consequences" must previously have been unaware of the Islamist content of the schoolbooks.

But surely someone was aware. The US government can't write, edit, print and ship millions of violent, Muslim fundamentalist primers into Afghanistan without high officials in the US government approving those primers.

http://www.tenc.net/articles/jared/jihad.h...


If you read this and get it -- please pass the word along --

"God" has for too long been used as a tool for violence and conquest!!!

[sabrina 1]

11. Excellent post, thank you ~

I remember the 'school book' story and the pretend shock at what Muslim children were reading. How sad that all we can think to do with power we have, to create more and more violence and suffering around the world.

[existentialist]

31. I think I can safely add that

the right wing "Christian" movement isn't really Christian either.

[Enthusiast]

19. Thank you for your analysis.

I have long studied history, especially the events leading up to and WWII. I agree with you wholeheartedly. This propaganda is dismissed by some as simply "entertainment". Nothing angers me more than someone telling me Rush Limbaugh is an entertainer. Rush Limbaugh is a pure propagandist, of the highest order.

[Hubert Flottz]

25. I have read tons of books on the NAZIs and have lived in...

Germany and seen the scars left by the NAZIs on the country and the people there. I agree with you and your husband's assessment of the rabid GOP, 100%. I have said all along that the Bush gang and their following may not be card carrying NAZIs, but they conduct themselves very much like the NAZIs once did.

I think that many of the right wingers such as Karl Rove, do know what the NAZIs did and how the NAZIs pulled it all off. Coupled with the Prescott Bush/Nazi connection in the 30s and 40s I'm inclined to believe that the right wingers know exactly what they have been doing and are still doing, with the help of scoundrels like those at FOX/WSJ and CNN.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

52. I Guess I Can't Help But Think...

that your position is a bit of a stretch. There was a lot more to the early Nazis than telling the people who's to blame for Germany's woes. For instance, groups of brownshirts beating the holy hell out of their political opponents whenever they held meetings, attacking opposition presses, regularly assassinating opponents, etc.

[Enthusiast]

65. They simply haven't

gotten to that stage yet.

No, seriously, I actually do suspect they, Rove, Rumsfeld, Cheney, etc, might be ideologically Nazis.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

67. For the Nazis

violence was part of their movement from the very beginning, though. It was not some separate stage that came later. With that said, it's always important to keep an eye out for such violence, but unless it's taking place, it's awfully tough to make the comparison.

[Enthusiast]

68. Not exactly.

"With that said, it's always important to keep an eye out for such violence, but unless it's taking place, it's awfully tough to make the comparison."

If they are having their way politically why would they arouse suspicion by engaging in violence.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

70. I Would Just Like to Point Out

that you're comparing a party that used violence to achieve power and advance its agenda to a party that isn't doing so. That alone is enough to make this is comparison a stretch.

[Enthusiast]

100. It's not a stretch.

Why use violence when they can get everything they want without it?

[defendandprotect]

107. We've had overt right-wing political violence in America for more than 50 years . . .!!!

And, of course long, long before that --

From genocide of Native American to enslavement and murder of Africans here --

And all the way along -- Dag Hammarskjold/UN -- Adlai Stevenson -- who knows how

many more --

Plus organized election steals possibly going back to mid and late 1960's when the

computers first began coming in --

Coincidentally just about the time America was passing The Voting Rights Act!!

The only way the right can rise is with violence, intimidation, stolen elections!

[defendandprotect]

106. If you read some of the Homeland Security stuff . . . it's clear they have . .!!!

[Hubert Flottz]

99. Think whatever you like...

I'll do the same.

[Lena inRI]

28. Hear Hear, JDPriestly. . .

. . .that's the game plan for right-wing minority parties to gain power. . .scare the majority and give 'em tax breaks.

Surely Obama is educated about this point.

I'm appalled at how cocky these right-wingers are where ever they rear their ugly heads. . .

For example, Italians are wrestling with Berlusconi who struts about, so much like the arrogant Mussolini, getting immunity for bribery cases against him last year. . .deja vue all over again.

Though the court just overturned his immunity, his cohorts and he are all over their media (he owns 3 of 7 Italian free-to-air TV stations + influences state TV RAI) saying how the PEOPLE still want him.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/09/berlusconi-boast-best-in-history?CMP=AFCYAH



That's how I see the Nobel Peace prize being given to Obama. . .

the Norwegians smell the right-wingers in Europe, Middle East, and here. . .

so they appeal to Obama to hold the line against them, NOT TO APPEASE them.

:smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke:

[Diclotican]

41. by Lena inRI

by Lena inRI

Im not so sure about that every norwigians have understand the right wingers in the world.. If you can managed to read norwigian newspaper it is many who disagree about the nobel institutes desision to make president Obama the next winner of the nobel peace prize.. Some also say that mr Jageland should resign over it...

But many norwigias understand and smell the faul taste of neo-nazism and extremism.. That is true. It exist still a generation who know first hand what happend in Europa between 1933 and 1945. And still know how bad it was when the nazist was in power..

I for one do hope that US dosent have to learn it the hard way Europe did when the nazis was marshing into power and then using all type of scaring tactitcs to get where they wantet, total power...

And mr Shomsky is absolutely right about how the right wings of US is similar to the nazis of old europe. They do share the same distain for everything that is not like them self, and want to mars into power, and be there for the next 1000 year or so.. It was lucky for the world, and for US that mr Bush was not fully comited to the neo conservatives cause, but in some prospect was looking as a brake for some of the more radical idead that Cheney and Rumsfelds was loving to make..

And still you haven't close down the ilk of mr Rush Humburg and Co, who most surly would not have had more than ONE hour of broadkast in the airwaiwes in Europe, if they ever was to make a stand here. The Right wing of US is to far right to even get a voice in Europe legaly.. Not in Main stream broadcast anyway..

Diclotican

[Lena inRI]

76. Hey, Diclotican of Norway!

I appreciated your report from the Norwegian ground about President Obama's Nobel prize. . .more on that later.

First, is your moniker for Diocletian, Roman Emperor who tried to save the empire by dividing it East and West? Uhmmm, more fitting for you to select Norwegian explorer Leif Ericson, the true discoverer of America 1000 B.C.E., not Christopher Columbus, no? Course, maybe that's your real name. . .uhmmmm, so your parents like Roman names??? LOL

Any-hoo, 2 of your comments reflect how deficient our US press has become because if the Norwegians were told the news of Bush and Obama from a fair and balanced US press, you would not say:

1--Bush put a "brake" on the neo-conservatism of Cheney/Rumsfeld. Truth is he was a puppet on a string, delivering their agenda to the smallest detail without any discretionary thought. The US press suppressed how profoundly CLUELESS this DIM SON, George W. Bush, was.

2--Most Norwegians would not think Obama did not deserve the Nobel Peace prize if the US press truthfully reported how far right the Bush years were and continue to be in the lingering propaganda mouthpieces of Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck (you heard him yet??? Crazier than even Limbaugh!) As I said in my previous post, Obama is our last chance to turn the tide from the right-winger Bush tsunami to more peaceful waters of a balanced democratic republic.

As for Chomsky, he's insightful like so many of us educated citizens who also learned from their World War II ancestors the horrors of that war. . .we have automatic sensitivity to rightist techniques. The closest I got to Norway was Malmo, Sweden, and Copenhagen, Denmark, 1971-73. . .some day I'll see the fjords!

I've always admired those Swedes, Danes, and Norwegians who sabotaged the Nazis persecution of Jewish citizens by helping them escape to neutral Sweden. The Danes defied the Nazi law requiring all Jews to wear a yellow Star of David armband by, in fact, all wearing the armband to foul up the Nazi plan. Did Norwegians do something similar?

My ancestors were partigiani (partisans) against Benito Mussolini, one cousin in fact was taken from his family for dissenting Il Duce publicly. . .he was found dead in an alley from forced drinking of benzene solvent. Four other relatives were lined up outside their house in a mountain rural village by Mussolini's squadristi (Blackshirts) to be shot point blank for espousing communist beliefs.

So, to you and me, Chomsky's warnings have a ring of familiarity as we never forget our European ancestors' stories of Nazi/Fascist World War II.

Frid vare med yer. . .peace be with you :fistbump: :fistbump: :fistbump: :fistbump: :fistbump:

[Diclotican]

81. Lena inRI

Lena inRI

Yes, my screen name is indeed from the Roman emperor who in the late 280 early 300s managed to keep the empire together - by the treads by the way, and ended up as an old man on pention in Split.. Or to be correct, the palace/mausoleum he build for himself as an retainment home wasn in due time rebuild as a City, and even as the old palace and mausoleum is more or less goon today, the city of Split is still there, and until the 1700-1800s it was inside the roman wall limits of the early 300s.. The split between the different parts of the empire The Balkans and the western parts was more the fault of them who came after than himself.. But yes his partition of the empire, for the sake of better governance was the first sign of the division who always had been there, and who in the 300 and 400s AD was going to be worse and worse, to the time when the last west roman emperor was put into a luxurious retainment and the Western empires symbols of power was given back to Constantinople, with the letter telling that they was no more needed in the west.. Justinian tried for a while to keep the two parts togheter again but it was futile, and the eastern roman empire had their own problems with the arab Bedouins in the 600s... And the Western parts collapsed soon into the dark ages who lasted for many dark hundred years.. But still there the flicker of light was seen here and there, most in the monastery of the roman Catholic Church who in many cases started the rest of european history...

Bush Jr was indeed a puppet no doubt about that, he was also a terrible horrible leader who bl owed up all chances of going together with most of your NATO alliance to go after Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qauda with "either you are with us or against us". And he more or less blow all chances ha might have had to build a really big solid coalition against Iraq in the 2002-03 if he had coming up with real facts instead of the comic mr Powell was given UN in early 2003.. Even Powell was against the evidences...

Your current President Barack H. Obama really deserve the Nobel peace prize, because he have already by being elected by the AMERICAN PUBLIC showing the world that he and the american public at a large wanted a better future than the past had been.. And I for one was up to 5 in the morning the day the election happened to just se who won the presidency.. And I am afraid I wake up most of the neighborhood when I was standing outside the house to shout on the top of my lungs YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES OBAMA IS ELECTED THE NEXT AMERICAN PRESIDENT (in Norwegian off course;))

And yes Obama is your last best chance to turn the tide and to make it possible to work togheterer with the US than to be dragged kicking and screaming before the bulldozer that is the US war machine... Obama is not just YOUR best chance, he is also OUR best chance to a better future than mr Bush and the right wings of the republican party ever managed to give us.. And still many Norwegians was telling that mr Bush deserved it better than Obama when it was confirmed that Obama got the prize. Obama have heritage a lot of horrible problems from your last president, and it will be a mess for many years ahead before the big ship who are the United States of America is in better water than today.. YOu will need at least a couple of presidents like your current (maybe even some little more to the left) to even try rebuild the damage that your last republican president was doing to US

I have never had the displeasure of listening to mr Deck, but I did have the displeasure of listing to mr Rush "humburg" Limbuagh by accidence sometimes.. And I for one are pretty sure that he is a man man, as in really sick.. And I'm also pretty sure the rest of the gangs is like him, mad as hell and with an illness of sorts..

The danish helping of the jews, who most surly would have ended in the gas chambers of Treblinka Sorbinol and so on is something that is really admirable.. Of the jewish population 99 percent get out of the country and over to Sweden who was neutral and not occupied by anyone and survived to the end... I would say our own history about the persecution of the jews is less admirable because just 24 of the more than 3000-4000 member of the jewish community survived the war. That was they who was arrested and send to germany - Stettin in Poland was a important port of entry - before a long way to the east where they was gaset.. But many also helped the jews, specially children to escape to Sweden and some sorts of peace there the rest of the war..

Denmark is a small country compared to Norway, and it was somewhat more easy to transport the jews to sweden than it ws to help the jews in Norway. But it is a shame to admit that in many cases the authorities and the german occupation force (SS and Gestapo and SIPO) did their work and put most of the jews on the trains and then off to the ships to Germany... It is a shame we have to live with - but after the war Norway have been a good friend of the state of Israel then - even that we do have our things there too.... But it surly messed up the german plans to first segregate and then get the jews into the trains who is been send to concentration caps, when half the population is going around with yellow stars and armbands... It would seen to be a hopeless project, and the danish Resistance groups was also really good in given the Germans hard time when they blow up railroads and such all the time... Compared to be in Denmark to Norway was more or less day and night.. In Norway the "parole" was more or less, be carefully and doesn't let the germans have a chance to go hard on you.. And compared to the danish Resistance the Norwegian was pretty peacefully, and it was not before 1943-44 and the winter of 1944-45 that Milorg really get into action against german targets... (Milorg was the official military branch of the Resistance) Their main case was not to fight the germans in every faction, but to inform the allied forces what happened and where the german forces was.. And in many cases they did a excellent work and many german war ships was clipped down as they was sailing true Norwegian sea water... Even the mighty Tirpitz, who after the sinking of Bismarck was the most mighty battleship on the Atlantic ended her days in the bay of Bodø in 1944... And for the point of history, the airport was using the panzer plates from Tirpitz to build rwy 07/25 /main civilian runway by the way) And most of what was salvageable was also used to build some forts in the harbor of Bodø.. Even some of the canons was been used that way to defend the inlet to the habour... And the last of the canons I believe was out of commission in the late 1980s...

Your family have to be an really brave family if some of them was telling Il Duce in public what a rat he really was.. That is hugely admirable I would say.. It could not be easy to have "different belief" in the fascist Italy - not that it ever have been easy to be public communist in Italy in any cases. Admirable it is, to tell the Duce that he was a rat... Something like the students of Oslo did when they was ORDERED but he occupation forces to stand in the streets up to the royal Palace in 1942 when no less than Heinrich Himmler was wisting Norway.. The students was rather against the whole case.. And as the Reich fuhrer SS was coming up Karl Johan (our parade gate) 3000 students and civilians turned their back on the mighty leader of the SS, and showed just their back as he was driving up to the Palace.. The Reich fuhrer SS Heinrich Himmler was furious and it almost ended the time of one of Norway's other nemesis in the war a Rhinelander with the name Terbhoven.. Who by the way blow himself up instead of been arrested 4-5km from where I'm living today... And most of the students who was not running for their life to Sweden ended up arrested and put to concentration camps in Germany for some "re-eduction" for the rest of the war.. Many of them died too

Yes mr Chomsky is warning for what can because of US.. And I for one would say he has been better and better as his age progresses.. Very sad he cant live forever - but as long as he is alive it is still some hope for the democracy in US i would say... But he tend to be somewhat arrogant when asked about things...

You all must got it Fred være med deg - peace be with you also my friend:fistbump: :toast:

And no, my parents have not given me a roman sounded name, I'm named after both my grand Fathers, and have a solid Norwegian sounding name to boot.. Hopeless for anyone outside scandinavia to really understand when I'm telling my name.. But if I write it down, then some of them understand it:P

Diclotican

[defendandprotect]

108. Wow . . . all the ducks in a row . . .

I feel as you do -- very concerned!

Have been for more than 20 years!

[Fedja]

34. Scary comparison

What's even more frightening is that it has a solid base.

"But the most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success."
--- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

If that's not something we've seen from the birthers, teabaggers, Beck, Limbaugh, and the lot, I don't know what is. The whole GOP machine revolves around screaming the same 3 lies over and over again.

[clarence swinney]

47. Karl Rove and Jospeh Goebbels

Rove calls Goebbels greatest propagandist in history.

He studied his techniques and has practiced them on the American people.

He taught Bushaloon to lie but never stop and admit it is a lie. Tell it so often it becomes truth.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

53. Interestingly Enough

the Nazis studied the propaganda the United States used in order to get its populace to support the American entry into WWI.

[Truth2Tell]

109. Definitely Interestingly Enough

Most interesting post in this thread IMO. :)

[AlbertCat]

56. the NAZI label should not be used for the right-wing.

You are right that people don't know what the Nazis were about. They did a lot more than round up Jews and invade countries. ( they were very effective with putting Germany on top.... even after the humiliation of WWI! They were a complete success in that respect.) Propagandists are propagandists and I'm sure you can find versions of all the Nazi propaganda tactics in the USSR and Cambodia, even Afghanistan and Pakistan, and anywhere totalitarianism is being nurtured. And that's the point! Not that the Right Wing are the Nazis....no one will ever be them again. But that the SAME OLD tactics that these awful regimes used are being used openly and exactly like they were used before by the Right in America.

Like I've said before: Here I thought the GOP hated the USSR and Commies, and now it turns out it wasn't hate, it was ENVY.

[Shireling]

71. Thank you

My thoughts exactly. This is a very serious situation, and making light of it and pretending it will simply go away by itself is just plain naive. :hide:

[sulphurdunn]

73. Advertising makes it happen.

With this most excellent post, I would only take exception to this excerpt regarding right wing media in America: "They have never studied the NAZIs and have no idea what they were about or what they did -- other than the concentration camps."

Huge advances have been made in the study of mass psychology since WWII. The people who run corporate media know exactly what the Nazis were about. I would be surprised to learn that Rovianesque political hacks, PR stooges and propaganda pimps have never read Mien Kampf. I've read it, and I'm just a sorry ass, tree hugging, bleeding heart liberal. I would posit that our infection of ubermencsh is both historic and a fundamental manifestation of capitalism. National Socialism was never socialist. The sons of bitches who run our version of it are richer, smarter, more sophisticated and far more powerful than Hitler and his thugs ever were. Had it not been for the investment opportunities of private corporations and banks here and in Europe, it is unlikely there would have ever been a Third Reich. Initially, fascism was a golden egg layer for Wall Street. WWII in Europe became inevitable when it became apparent that the Third Reich could not repay the debt for its military buildup without the war Hitler had always threatened. At that point, war became the golden goose investment to rid international finance of the albatross Germany had become around its neck. Germany was simply the derivative investment of its day, guaranteed by the full faith and credit of the United States. We saved Germany from the fascism that capitalism helped spawn while saving capitalism from itself. Just like we continue doing. I apologize for the length of this post.

[phasma ex machina]

91. "We are not fighting Jewish or Christian capitalism, we are fighting every capitalism:

we are making the people completely free." - Adolf Hitler 1921

[ProgressOnTheMove]

4. He's looking real healthy and very sage advice getting truth out is critical...

potentially life and death. Especially regarding what the misinformation the Cheneys are putting out that has to be debunked regualar and often and forcfully. With a few large scale advertising campaigns.

[vanbean]

39. Yes. I heard Liz Cheney on a talk show saying that Obama should have a mother of a dead

soldier from Iraq or Afghanistan accept the peace prize. She implied that the Nobel prize was won due to those wars. That sickened me.

[janedum]

5. TV AND Radio remind me of Nazi Germany.

[bertman]

6. It's a clear warning. We must heed it. Recommend.

[troubledamerican]

8. 15 years too late. Thanks, Noam.

I remember Noam back in the early '90s answering a question about Rush Limbaugh by saying "Nobody takes them (right-wing hate radio jocks) seriously."

Thanks, Noam.

[defendandprotect]

13. I know what you mean . . .

and understand the frustration . . .

but do you think Chomsky had dishonest intentions in not pointing this out earlier?

Perhaps his own Jewish heritage may have made him feel vulnerable in calling media "NAZIS" like?
I don't know.

Look at Ralph Nader -- he's been warning us for decades -- but, I think when he really,

really saw the fascism of the Bush administration that even he was in shock!

Michael Parenti tells us what they really are --

"People who would shoot you as fast as look at you" --

I've known this since the late 80's . . . but it still shocks me to see it !

And how many of us saw "Crossfire" with Pat Buchanan with his sexist, racist, homophobic

game-playing on display and understood what was going and GE putting him on and keeping him on?

GE was powerful enough to do it -- lots of profit in weapons making.

Now . . . I think you have to say Buchanan paved the way for Glenn Beck ... ?

Who's keeping him on?

And what takes the public so long to wake up??

I never watched a Sunday morning show in my life except a few seconds --

it's obvious it's heavily controlled.

The only real TV we ever had was when JFK, Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Jr. -- Malcolm X
were alive --
James Baldwin and a few others --

[troubledamerican]

14. Ask Michael Parenti about Noam. Ouch.

http://www.tucradio.org/parenti.html#Parenti

MP3, second one down, "Gangster Nature of the State"

[defendandprotect]

15. Will listen to it tomorrow -- thank you!!

Didn't know such an archive existed -- he's one of my favorites.

Used to frustrate me no end that no one ever spoke about "right-wing propaganda" --
no one -- not books - progressives -- no one. Finally, Michael Parenti did!

Right -- Chomsky also wrote a book supporting the OCT on 9/11 -- and he frustrates many
with his lack of questioning JFK coup -- and evidently, even worse, supports Warren Commission!!

I had posted a Michael Moore video recently where he's talking about 9/11 and someone is
trying to push him a bit to do more -- and, of course, he did Farenheit 9/11 -- and he
is obviously not going away on it. But, he makes clear he has to do things his way, his
time, according to his own lights.

What's up with Chomsky I don't know.
Maybe Parenti will make this clearer for me tomrrow -- ??!!

:)

[glitch]

32. Have you checked out radio4all.net? They have quite a few Parenti audio archives too. nt

[defendandprotect]

48. Thank you . . . I'll plug it in and try to get to listen to some of it --

[defendandprotect]

55. Enjoyed listening to this --

While I'm fairly up on the JFK stuff, there's always something to be learned
and did pick up a few things I didn't know. Will hope to have more time to
get into these tapes.

As for Chomsky - yes, Parenti is well worth listening to re he and Cockburn -
And the oddity of their complete anti-JFK fervor. Also agree that "The Nation,"
is not a reliable liberal organ. Also their willingness to admit that they know
nothing of the JFK assassination and refuse to amend that situation.
Parenti, in fact, says they "are unable to grasp" what the coup really means.
He also points to their hatred for JFK and their fear that we will like him!

Still it doesn't answer the question of "why?" --
Originally, I thought it was because you can only get so many messages out -
and it is a lot of work to be aware of all that goes on with JFK coup - actually a
coup on "people's" government - and defend your position.

Cockburn is very often a complete idiot -- yet I have to congratulate him for pointing
to the destructive force of "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" --
two licenses for exploitation which I've always looked at askance.

I guess this is kinda like the argument between the "Plane Huggers" and the "NO Planes"
9/11 blocs. Are any on either side actually counter-intel?

Are Chomsky or Cockburn counter-intel or just stupid about some things.

The fact that Chomsky not only defended 9/11 against challenges of conspiracy, but
actually wrote a book defending caused me to feel a chill about him.

And for whatever sense either of us might make of this, it kinda reminds me of Ben Bradlee
whose comments on JFK I often find ring the wrong note -- and of whom I'm always somewhat
suspicious. But that did come to mind as I began to close here.

Thanks again --



Edited to add that I went looking to see if you had a "Journal" and evidently not -
but I will be looking for your posts!


:)

[troubledamerican]

92. always enjoy your posts

somewhere out on the wild web you can find a document linking Ben Bradlee to the CIA in Europe in the 1950s... puts a different light on the Washington Post role in Watergate...

Which also reminds me that in "The Chomsky Reader" (look for it in the index under "CIA"), Chomsky asserts that the CIA has zero independence from the White House and contains no rogue factions or players... Which would seem to be contradicted by Iran-Contra, Frank Terpil & Edwin Wilson, among others.

[defendandprotect]

105. Agree with you on those two bits of info I was NOT aware of -- !!!

[Diclotican]

42. defendandprotect

defendandprotect

It took most germans a lost war to understand what they had been coerset to accept as normality.. And even that many germans had tried, and died for making most germans aware of what the nazis did do, the Nazi-regime still had large support in most of germany til the end, when the russians was outside the Fueher bunker in Berlin, and the children of Dr Gobbles was lying dead in their beds inside the bunker where Hitler once had believed to rule the largest empire on the face of the earth. In a capital who should dwarf the rest of the worlds capitals...

Diclotican

[defendandprotect]

60. Trying to think of the name of a poet . . .

checked internet briefly, but she was a lesbian -- Grace something? - friend of Hemingway,
she had a female lover who was also a writer --

Anyway, right after WWII - like the minute it was over - she was on French border and walked
into Germany -- she concluded that "obedience" was the problem.
In that regard you could again look to patriarchal religion as creating that obedience.
I've seen some truth in that.

As Noam was just pointing out from 1920 to 1930 - ten years - the Germans were turned from an
intellectual/humane population into something totally distorted. The original NAZI party did,
of course, have true social interests --- Unions, Female Equality/Abortion,Health, etal.
Hitler co-opted that party and used it, reversing all it stood for.

It's impossible, however, IMO, to move from the power of patriarchal violence/aggression as
being responsible. Violence is a mirror image of patriarchy.

When our laws are ignored and the right wing is set loose, when right wing political violence
goes unchecked as it did in Germany and as it has done here in America, then the fight-back
becomes very difficult. Ignoring the JFK assassination for what it really was -- an attack on
"people's" government -- and embracing a cover-up which most people in government had to know
was a lie has moved us to where are now.

And, I'm also of the opinion, gave us 9/11 -- and probably future political violence.

In fact, the entire record of patriarchy is one of violence -- occasionally tempered -
sometimes reigned in -- but too often succeeding.

Part of my family were German -- came here before the turn of the century - 1900's.
Intelligent people and certainly understood the dangers of the right-wing.
Also horrified at what happened to the German people.
It's amazing what right-wing propaganda can do!

That's my insight so far --
It beats "If you could understand them you'd be as crazy as they are!"

But without doubt we did nothing to hold the Nazis responsible nor to prevent their escape
thru the Vatican ratholes. Indeed, we seem to have worked to aid all of that -- including
bringing tens of thousands of them here - families included -- under "Operation Paperclip"-!

These Nazis were used in the founding of the CIA, funneled into the FBI and NASA -
in other words, we never really defeated the Nazis. And I think probably you understand/know
all that!/?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

61. Patriarchy?

Was the obedience due to patriarchy or was the obedience due to the fact that the Nazis were the only group to provide some semblance of order in the chaos that was post-WWI Germany? Also, I would add that Chomsky was only partially correct in his analysis of 1920s Germany. The have-nots were without jobs and concerned about how they were going to eat, industrialization and urbanization were creating massive social tensions, political violence (both right AND left wing) was commonplace, etc. etc. One should not exclude these issues when talking about Germany during this period. After all, what was happening in Germany was bigger than what their art scene or advances in science alone might lead one to believe...

[defendandprotect]

64. Patriarchy . . . and a lot of help from Allen Dulles, Prescott Bush and elites all over the world ..

Still can't remember the name of the poet -- and in fact in one of my personal journals I
have a copy of the article she wrote at the time -- which was reprinted some years ago --

but she is writing that her conclusion was that they were an OBEDIENT people.

Guess you could look at that as the "first strike" against them --

I'm of the opinion that organized patriarchal religion always has something to do with that -
especially religion which for so long operated as a substitute for one's own conscience, for
one's own free thought and personal conscience -- an "infallible" Pope - an authoritarian church.

Needless to say the terms of the Armistice after WWI were harsh and often commented upon.
HOWEVER, many of the ruling elite worked in America and around the world to support Hitler and
raise money for him. Allen Dulles and his legal firm - Sullivan & Cromwell - with the help of
Prescott Bush and many others raised money from elites all over the world. They also succeeded
in overturning the restrictions on the RE-ARMING of Germany! Dulles cashed in American dollars
for gold which was shipped to Hilter.

Also think that your information re the true state of Germans post WWI suggests not quite as rosy
as Chomsky may be indicating -- but they certainly were not am INHUMANE SOCIETY, IMO . .. ????

Was the obedience due to patriarchy or was the obedience due to the fact that the Nazis were the only group to provide some semblance of order in the chaos that was post-WWI Germany? Also, I would add that Chomsky was only partially correct in his analysis of 1920s Germany. The have-nots were without jobs and concerned about how they were going to eat, industrialization and urbanization were creating massive social tensions, political violence (both right AND left wing) was commonplace, etc. etc. One should not exclude these issues when talking about Germany during this period. After all, what was happening in Germany was bigger than what their art scene or advances in science alone might lead one to believe...

And with that final thought in mind . . . I think we have to recognize how another go-around with
TORTURE by the Bush Administration - scenes of dogs again controlling humans -- can very readily
remind us of the NAZI camps and that era -- but can also in some way, IMO, dissipate the uniqueness
and shock and horror of those times!

It should also remind us of the original CRUSADES, the
sexual license, the brutality - the setting of new precedents of brutality and barbarism --
and that the NAZI ERA was, indeed, not that unique!!!

The right wing are not to be underestimated, nor is right wing propaganda to be underestimated!

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

66. I Somewhat Agree

I do agree that 1920s Germany was not inhumane, at least not anywhere on the scale that Nazi Germany was.

I question this idea that the Germans were somehow more obedient than other people though. In fact, I would argue the opposite was true. Case in point - there was little to no obedience to the Weimar Republican, the established government, on the part of the German people as a whole. As time went on, they consistently flocked to parties that openly rebelled against it/sought to undermine it. The most notable of these being the Nazi Party and the Communist Party, though these were by far not the only ones. They favored rebellion and competing factions to such a degree that the Reichstagg became completely non-functional, often devolving into screaming matches, and unable to pass any legislation whatsoever. Add to this what was taking place outside the Reichstagg, as many Germans began forming themselves into politically oriented gangs and fighting each other in the streets (the Red Guard, the brownshirts, etc.) Also, the high level of political awareness and electoral participation on the part of the German people in this period. These are not the indications of a people who are particularly imbued with the idea of blind obedience to authority. At least not as far as I see it.

I do agree that we shouldn't underestimate the right wing or right wing propaganda, at the same time, however, I can't help but think that many of these Nazi comparisons are a stretch. That is not to say we shouldn't learn from what occured in Germany at this time, but simply to say that we should always strive to discuss such matters honestly, which doesn't always happen in this country.

[defendandprotect]

79. The poet was Gertrude Stein . . ..

I do agree that 1920s Germany was not inhumane, at least not anywhere on the scale that Nazi Germany was.

Right . . . and same relationship I guess with America pre-Bush . . .
Reagan homeless, cutting off of our safety nets. Ketchup for children's lunch veggie.
We weren't yet running prisons with dogs and torturing people . . .
But the right wing had made lots of negative difference in our legal system -
numbers of people we were imprisoning - the conditions were becoming inhumane --
they used the Drug Laws in large part to do it -- but also in overturning
many of the 1930's reforms that liberals had made in our prisons.
Currently, some in our prisons are claiming to be being tortured!
We've let this tremendous build up of prison population go on without too much noise.
Story recently about some youths being sold into our prison system.

We've also seen tremendous right wing interference with the right to free assembly --
penning up protesters -- attacks on peaceful demonstrations -- tremendous incidents of
police brutality and that's been true in my home state of NJ! Racial profiling, etal.
Sensational cases in California with Rodney King and in NYC with Abner Lumina.
Needless to say, the Drug trade could not go on without cooperation of some high elected
officials and police enforcement.

So, perhaps, the answer is that these things begin slowly - people don't speak up/protest
and things progress further? Overturning of the ban on Capital punishment.
Look at Homeland Security - look at the way our police/"public servants" are dressed like
Gestapo! Habeas Corpus. Patriot Act. Blackwater.

And this was interesting to read . . . and I agree --

I question this idea that the Germans were somehow more obedient than other people though. In fact, I would argue the opposite was true. Case in point - there was little to no obedience to the Weimar Republican, the established government, on the part of the German people as a whole. As time went on, they consistently flocked to parties that openly rebelled against it/sought to undermine it. The most notable of these being the Nazi Party and the Communist Party, though these were by far not the only ones. They favored rebellion and competing factions to such a degree that the Reichstagg became completely non-functional, often devolving into screaming matches, and unable to pass any legislation whatsoever. Add to this what was taking place outside the Reichstagg, as many Germans began forming themselves into politically oriented gangs and fighting each other in the streets (the Red Guard, the brownshirts, etc.) Also, the high level of political awareness and electoral participation on the part of the German people in this period. These are not the indications of a people who are particularly imbued with the idea of blind obedience to authority. At least not as far as I see it.

And, therefore, we must be saying that those who helped enforce the NAZI regime - it's brutality - were people acting out of their own free will? There are lots of arguments for that, in fact.


I'm not quite sure here ....

I do agree that we shouldn't underestimate the right wing or right wing propaganda, at the same time ---

however, I can't help but think that many of these Nazi comparisons are a stretch. That is not to say we shouldn't learn from what occured in Germany at this time, but simply to say that we should always strive to discuss such matters honestly, which doesn't always happen in this country.

which "many of these Nazi comparisons are a stretch" you are thinking of?

Comparing Hitler and NAZI era to the Crusades, for instance, doesn't take much.
Hitler, himself, told us he was imitating the Roman Catholic Church.
He also evidently found further inspiration for the concentration camps from our own
government's Indian reservations.
We know the Russian government immediately compared 9/11 to The Reichstag Fire ....
calling 9/11 "The Reichstag Fire in NYC" --

Nor is it difficult to compare Bush's "Crusade" on ME to the original Crusades.
To the Abu Ghraib torture and rapes and sexual obsessions turned into various torments.

When we consider how far Bush/right wing went down this road, we can imagine what another
8 years of a right wing administration might bring!

But I don't think we can yet answer the question of Germany, except to say that we can see
we are just as susceptible to manipulation and "god" driven wars and having TORTURE go without
accountability as any other people.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

85. Appreciate the Discussion

I guess I should start off by saying that I really don't consider many of these to exclusively be Right issues. For while Clinton didn't start the War on Drugs, one could hardly argue that he scaled it back in any meaningful degree or that he made decreasing America's outrageously high prison population a priority. On issues like these, I see little difference between liberals and conservatives, at least as far as those holding office are concerned.

With regard to treatment of demonstrators, it's been fairly similar as well, from my experiences. For all that's been said for the treatment of demonstrators outside the RNC in '04 and '08 (which was poor in many respects, don't get me wrong), it wasn't those demonstrations where I got the snot knocked out of me by the police. That happened outside the DNC in Boston in '04. They had a free speech cage set up for us there as well, and came at us clubs a flailin' on the last day of the convention. A handful of delegates came out to voice their opposition to the cage, but only a handful. The rest couldn't have cared less.

As far as which comparisons are a stretch, at this point, I would have to say all of them, including the one made by Chomsky in this video. In this case in particular I find the comparison rather useless because much of what the Nazis learned about propaganda they learned from the United States and the British in their efforts to whip up support for WWI. To argue that the Right is similar to the Nazis because the Right uses similar propaganda methods to the ones the Nazis borrowed from us in the first place seems nonsensical. Frankly, I'm a bit shocked that Chomsky is making the comparison, when this is a fact he's well aware of.

I don't see much room for comparison between 9-11 and the Reichstag fire, personally. They were attacks launched for very different reasons, one clearly did not involve a conspiracy while the other clearly did, etc. etc. Same with the Crusades and Bush's efforts in the Middle East. Bush was not waging wars in the name of protecting Christianity or in the hopes of securing it a lasting place in the Middle East, he wasn't openly advocating the slaughter of all non-Christians, etc.

[defendandprotect]

87. Not too much happens by accident . . .

Certainly the Nixon Administration installed the War on Drugs and as they made clear
it had the added side effect of ensnaring African Americans in prisons/legal system.
The numbers of AA who can't vote because of that are tremendous.
Granted Dems have not overturned it, but liberals/progressives working for that.
Some conservatives, as well.

We've just had the G20 protests end in violence on Obama's watch.
We might also remember Chicago and the anti-VN demonstrations during a Democratic Convention...
which they tried to ignore!

As far as the comparisons, I think Chomsky used "NAZIS" because it would make immediate and
truthful impact. The go-around of who first did what, a lot more complicated.
But, even agreeing that this propaganda is "borrowed" from Britain and US, we have to acknowledge
that it is right-wing propaganda in its entirety. As I recall it, US put something like 75,000
right wing propagandists on the streets to try to combat the left-wing anti-war propaganda.

To argue that the Right is similar to the Nazis because the Right uses similar propaganda methods to the ones the Nazis borrowed from us in the first place seems nonsensical.

Not exactly. If you picture a propaganda machine/typewriter . . . it depends upon who is composing
what is said and the nature of what is said. IMO, "Pro-War" is right wing propaganda.

We might also recall that Nixon's White House studied old NAZI propaganda films and there wasn't
much in them I'd call left-wing.

Same with the Crusades and Bush's efforts in the Middle East. Bush was not waging wars in the name of protecting Christianity or in the hopes of securing it a lasting place in the Middle East, he wasn't openly advocating the slaughter of all non-Christians, etc.

Presume you don't think that 9/11 was a conspiracy, as in "inside job"?
And, therefore, you might see the failure of Bush/Cheney administration overall, Pentagon/NORAD/CIA
as just coincidence? Even keeping in mind that on top of the many nations warning WH and our
intelligence agencies ... in AUGUST 2001 the United Nations Security Council also sent their
representatives to the White House and our intelligence agencies to warn them ... given the
Bush response to the warnings having been "Operation Ignore"?

Re the "Crusades" and Bush's "god" driven wars, there's an interesting interview
with James Carroll who wrote "Crusades" about those comparisons.*
And, recall that Bush did originally call it a "Crusade" which certainly is insider code if not
the reality of the situation. Nor do I think the slaughter of 1.5 million Muslims at this point -
after 20 years of bombing Iraq - is just incidental to Bush's intentions.


* Interview
http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/05/05/int05022.html

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

90. Maybe I'm Missing Something, But

We may have to agree to disagree on whether or not pro-war propaganda always equals Right, politically. As I see it, there have been numerous instances of Leftists advocating war throughout history and using propaganda as a means of bolstering their cause. The Spanish Civil War, in particular, comes to mind. While the Leftists were generally reacting to the fascists and conservatives assaults on the Republic, their choice was war nonetheless (not general strike or some other means of showing opposition).

With that said, I would agree that, in general, the propaganda that the Nazis put forth was Right as was most U.S. and British propaganda aimed at bolstering support for WWI.

No, I do not think 9-11 was an inside job.

Nor do I think Bush's use of the term "crusade" amounts to much more than a poor choice in words on his part. To me, it's clear he had a vision of what he wanted to accomplish in the Middle East, one that he thought would bring the world greater peace and stability - that being furthering the advance of democratic ideals in the region. However, is it really comparable to the Crusades? If so, I don't see it. The continued bombings of Iraq throughout the 1990s were unnecessary and had horrific consequences, but I don't see how they could be portrayed as some effort to squash Islam, spread Christianity, etc. Unless I'm missing something?

[defendandprotect]

104. Franco was a fascist . . .!!!

And those who were advocating that we assist pretty much joined the resistance....

Meanwhile, FDR - presumably on the left -- didn't assist -- which seems in retrospect

still to be a mistake. Evidently, the number of Catholics in America who were being

swayed by the Vatican support for Franco caused FDR to make that decision?


No, I do not think 9-11 was an inside job.

Nor do I think Bush's use of the term "crusade" amounts to much more than a poor choice in words on his part. To me, it's clear he had a vision of what he wanted to accomplish in the Middle East, one that he thought would bring the world greater peace and stability - that being furthering the advance of democratic ideals in the region. However, is it really comparable to the Crusades? If so, I don't see it. The continued bombings of Iraq throughout the 1990s were unnecessary and had horrific consequences, but I don't see how they could be portrayed as some effort to squash Islam, spread Christianity, etc. Unless I'm missing something?

As for the balance of your post, I find it extremely naive . . . if that's truly what you believe.

So -- I'll just say goodbye now --

[phasma ex machina]

93. The definition of "Nazi" evolved until it now means "my political opponent(s)."

It originally meant National Socialism obsessed with genocidal anti-Semitism.

Yet another useful word politicized into oblivion.

[TuxedoKat]

78. Gertrude Stein? Alice B Toklas? (nt)

[defendandprotect]

88. Thank you --

I did finally recollect her name --
but had tried on internet and no luck!

"Sweet-T-Pie" . . .
I enjoyed her comments about writing poetry --
obviously we remember and learn things with meter --
as Shakespeare makes obvious.
But, she also made clear that she "listened" first to
the words being added to her poems.

[TuxedoKat]

101. You're welcome

I find when I'm trying so hard to remember something to just tell myself to relax and it will come to
me in five minutes as I noticed that happening in the past, so now it almost always works.

Did you see this article abuot Pres. Obama and writing posted here in DU? I think you would enjoy it
from what you've wrote here. Cheers!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8704131

[defendandprotect]

102. Happily . . . what a long, long, long way this is from Bush ignorance/stupidity . . .

“I also have to say, one of the great thrills is to watch him work on a speech. It’s not just the content—he’s very focused on that—but more than anyone I’ve ever worked with, he’s focused on the rhythm of the words. Like, he’ll invert words. He’ll say, ‘I need a one-beat word here.’ There’s no question who the best writer in the speech-writing group is.”

I'm sure we all worry about him --
"No-nothings" don't much like intellectuals -- !!!

Thanks again --

:)

[PSzymeczek]

84. Gertrude Stein?

She was a friend of Hemingway.

[defendandprotect]

89. Yep . . . thank you -- !

[troubledamerican]

95. the Underground Reich

defendandprotect, if you're not familiar with Dave Emory's anti-fascist research podcast, you should check it out. The website (linked below) contains about 25 years' of free MP3s dating to the mid-1980s.

For a sampler, I recommend starting with Episode #644, "Ed Haslam on Dr. Mary's Monkey"...

Start with Part Two first, then Part One. You'll find a plot twist on U.S. history unlike any you've heard.

http://spitfirelist.com/for-the-record/audio-600-699/

[defendandprotect]

103. Ooooohhhh.....intriguing . . .

I am fairly familiar with Dr. Mary . . . Dave Ferrie . . .

I have some stuff I was supposed to get back to and was going to buy the book
at Amazon. I've also got about 15 books on a list my library doesn't have which
I need to get Reference to get for me a few at a time!

Internet is causing me to get behind in reading -- and right now I'm trying to
listen to Randi Rhodes and read text on my TV of C-span . . . Rep. Ed Markey, Chair:
Radioactive Waste Imports and Rocky Mtn. Low Level Waste Board

PM me with a little run down if you can -- but I will try to get to this ...
It's that sad time of year again . . . and keep thinking that some day all of these
cover-ups have to fall apart!

:)

[Bgno64]

45. Who's keeping him on?

I think you have to say Buchanan paved the way for Glenn Beck ... ?

Who's keeping him on?


The people who find his misdirection useful.

Look, Chomsky's right but the reality is that what's going on is simply too complex for the average American to understand. Derivatives? No way. Your average American probably couldn't pass Econ 101 and this is way above that. So yes, they know something's wrong, and yes, they are looking for answers - and the right is giving it to them.

The left ought to have some answers too - like, finance must not be permitted to be the heart of our economy; Wall Street's clout needs to be reduced. But the Obama team isn't doing that - and that gives even more credence to the right's claims.

Meanwhile, the oligarchs find it very useful when the average citizens' ire can be directed at the government. Glenn Beck thinks lower taxes and less regulation will solve our problems! That's EXACTLY what his corporate masters want, too - what a coincidence!

[defendandprotect]

58. Well, I think we're agreed that it isn't the average sponsor . . . ???

There's a lot of power behind this --

And we have to push harder and harder to get rid of people like Beck and O'Reilly --
If O'Reilly could get Dr. Tiller killed, could Glenn Beck succeed in arousing enough
Christian fanatics to actually try to assassinate Obama?

Of course Chomsky's right . . .
Is it too complex for Americans to understand fascism when they see/hear it?
I don't think so once their minds are free -- I think the problem is that they've been
taught that America is to be trusted - capitalism is to be trusted - and don't worry
about anything because your elected officials are in DC working for you!/?
I think they certainly understand the difference between honest investment and cheating
someone - between honest investment and speculation/exploitation!/?

Unfortunately, they're still looking to the TV for answers rather than to the internet
to find what is truly going on -- C-span -- library.

Agree "finance"/"Wall St" cannot be the hear of any economy -
And agree re Obama's "team" -- OUCH!
But just watched a Barney Frank hearing on re-regulation -- C-span 3 - take a look if
you can - think they'll repeat it -- went on almost all day. And, as usual, interruptions
keep me from hearing all that goes on.

Agree re the ruling elite - and misdirection --
Don't imagine they're too happy with Michael Moore's new movie?

SICKO, I'm sure woke up many Americans -- !/?

[kenfrequed]

35. Maybe..

It was ecause Chompsky was busy analyzing the corporate bias of the media that enabled the right wingers.

Imagine if we had actually listened to him and tried to embrace more progressive voices and work against the filters that control the information we recieve.

Really bitching about Chompsky now, after we have had a powerful and active corporate friendly wing of the democratic party calling the shots for about 20 years, seems absurd to me.

[defendandprotect]

63. Granted, I can agree with you . . .

re one's work going along as one can do it - handle it -- and Chomsky certainly had enough
to do to wake Americans up to the corporate-media/power, ruling elite control of nation's
wealth and resources, on and on --

As mentioned elsewhere, when Chomsky not only denied a 9/11 conspiracy but wrote a book
defending against such challenges -- it chilled me on him.

HOWEVER, my anti-Chomsky argument goes to this level, and includes Bill Moyers, to name
another ....

And, it mimics the Betty Friedan call-out of Simone de Beauvoir who wrote "The Second Sex"
when she was criticized for having written a book - "Feminine Mystique" which was pretty
much saying what de Beauvoir's book had said --

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/still-the-second-sex-simone-de-beauvoir-centenary-13373379.htmland

and Friedan's reply was that HER book had gotten females up off the couch to do something about
it --- de Beauvoir's hadn't!

And later Friedan's criticism of Gloria Steinem . . . which I HEARTILY agree with . . .
being that she was an interesting author but not a political leader - and certainly not an
international political leader.

I think that's the way to look at this -- who is getting anyone up off the couch to do something???!!!


And you also make a great point here . . .

Really bitching about Chompsky now, after we have had a powerful and active corporate friendly wing of the democratic party calling the shots for about 20 years, seems absurd to me.

however, Americans have been trained/taught to think capitalism is everything, including being
synonymous with democracy -- and that this is "conspiracy-free" America!
How much longer will it take them to see that Ruling Elite/corporate money has bought our "people's"
government, Congress, elected officials and corporate-press?
And TV has played a large role in that -- if it doesn't happen on TV it's not happening?
Is that still true?

Nader has been working on the selling of government for 3 decades or more --
Greider -- but that's reading!
You're not going to see them on TV!

The power of right wing propaganda repeated over and over and over again on TV is hard to beat
with a book.

[kenfrequed]

97. Your statements are not coherant

Chompsky was never a political leader. He was always a writer and an intellectual and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Taking him to task for not being obsessed with a conspiracy to create 9-11 is a waste of time and energy. It is schismaticism at its best and is pointless in its self hatred and inner directed energy. For my money it doesnt matter if buch and company blew up those buildings or if they stupidly ignored all warnings that it was a possibility. In either case it would have been absurdly difficult to be a greater opportunist or to take ore advantage of the situation. In fact the Bushites did not need to cause the WTC collapse to use it completely.

I think rather than some obtuse analogy to feminism (which ends up being a study in personality rather than policy and systemic conflict) you really ought to sort your points a bit.

[Mr Rabble]

62. You remember incorrectly sir.

In fact he specifically addressed this entire issue in 1995 in one of his most widely distributed talks- Propaganda and Control of the Public Mind.

During the Q&A, he talked about creating a mood of anti-politics, whereby the govt is blamed for everything, instead of placing the blame where it belongs- on the shoulders of the owners of the media and communications systems.

[TommyPaine]

10. Though the Nazis were better at public speaking. (nt)

[defendandprotect]

16. Nixon was pretty good at Nazi-speak . . ."peace, dream, peace, dream, peace, dream, peace" . ..

They were studying Nazi propaganda in his White House!!

Hope Obama is studying FDR!!

[Hansel]

49. My greatest fear is that they find a charismatic orator

Without Hilter's oratory skills there would never had been the raise to power by the Nazi's. Sarah Palin would be the person who could really bring them to power if she could string a coherent sentence together.

Pray that they do not find someone who can speak like Obama before the MSM, the RW and the perpetually whining "I want my cookie right now" LW completely destroy him. Unless Obama is allowed to line up some successes in a more REALISTIC time frame, we will be looking at a close resemblance of Nazi Germany as soon as the right is able to find "the one".

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

54. Unlikely.

I really don't see a repeat of the Nazi's rise to power taking place. What occured in Germany was the culmination of a number of different factors, many of which are absent from the American political landscape (an idealized view of past authoritarian rule, an unexpected and humiliating defeat in war, large chunks of the country chopped off and occupied for by foreign powers, etc. etc.)

[Hansel]

69. Encouraging and smart answer.

A Tea Bagger with speaking skills and charisma stills is my biggest fear. But you are correct that it would unlikely ever look like Nazi Germany. More likely just a very backward 3rd world nation of people going "what the hell happened?"

[defendandprotect]

12. k i c k

[Joe the Liberal]

17. k&r. n/t

[Electric Monk]

18. k&r

[Enthusiast]

20. Excellent.

This has been a systematic effort by the right wing since they did away with 'fairness doctrine'. It started under Reagan. There was/is a method to their madness.

Is/was it a conspiracy? Fuck yes.

I fear we have already lost and just don't know it.

[RedCloud]

22. If we do NOT SEE their crimes, they will NAZI their crimes.

[DeSwiss]

23. K&R

They use it because they know it still works very effectively.

[The Wizard]

24. Those who ignore History

are destined to repeat it.
For the love of Zeus, they've got a nationwide radio propaganda network and a TV station dedicated to the fascist model. All they really did was put on business suits and took off the jack boots and pointed hoods.
Fox is the favorite channel of the Ku Klux Klan and all other ignorant terrified bigots, and Limbaugh is the Grand Kleagle.

watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SScW9r0y3c4

[zbdent]

26. Watch the Beck apologists start screaming about this

and saying "Have the RW media sent millions to the gas chambers?"

:eyes:

[Lenomsky]

27. Not a conspirarcy theorist but ...

it stands to reason aiding and abetting Fundamentalism gives grounds for further control of us all in our best interest (yeah sure).

Chomsky ever rational speaks the truth as always.

[Diclotican]

43. zbdent

zbdent

"Have the RW media sent millions to the gas chambers?"


My answer to that is "not yet". The nazis of the 1930s dosent start to gas chamber peopole right away when they got into power, it took years to build up the systems, and to make the men capable of gassing their own friends, their own families and their own nabours. It took years before the "final solution" where millions of inocent woman, men and children would be killed, not becouse they had did something, but becouse they was who they was..

Give the right wing of the republican Party enough time, and the nazis wil be like a trip in the park compared to what the republicans can do. In the 1930s it was clear limits to what the nazi germans could do to kill others.. And most of their victims was not killed by gas but by rifle rounds.. In the age of the nuclear weapons, millions of "inferiour humans" can be killed in an instant, and no one is sercure at all.... It is a nightmare I really hope never to experience...

Diclotican

[zbdent]

75. well, when you consider that any person having an abortion, by the RW standards,

makes fill-in-the-blank-flavor-of-the-day Democrat party to genocide,

then the argument could be made that fighting tooth and nail (up to the point of actually signing up to go to war, which is the step that today's "patriotic and military supporting" Republicans hesitate to take) against making healthcare affordable to the masses, let alone providing it, is tantamount to murder, if any person dies because they can't afford health care.

I can see it now ... (or then?) ...

"Ah don want no King telling me not to touch this rat, or regalatin me to warsh my hands ..." - unnamed conservative during the Plague ...

[Diclotican]

77. zbdent

zbdent

When it comes to abortion I would say it this way, it is the law of the land, both in US and here in Norway, and even tho I have some resevation about it I wil never, ever kill or harm peopole who have to use abortion.. I wiuld never attac another becouse of that, why, becouse I KNOW that it is many reason before a woman goes to a abortion clinic to terminate something than in 9 mountsh is a living child.. And I wil never condemd they who do it - even tho I do have some resevation about it.. That is just what I feel about the whole affair. But I accept that this is tha law of the land, and it is NOT law of the land to kill pepole you are in disagreement... And to say that abortion is like the gas shambers is just... mindblowing becouse it cant even be on the same case at all...

I for one would say that it is becouse if the public as a whole get the knowlegde about what HEALTCARE for everyone really is, and what it can do for them who need the healt care most.. Then americans maybe start to rethink other parts of the right wing policy.. The hestiation of give healtcare for the masses is a clever way of controlling, and put fear into the masses.. If you dosent slave into your old ages, you cant affor your medical bills.. And then if you is sick and need healt care - then they deny you it, becouse it was not part of the deal - or the close your account and trow you out to the wolfes...

Thankfully in our neck of the wood we have healtcare for everyone, and even that we might pay a lot mot taxes than You are doing at the current, we have also a healtcare for everyone, and if i got ill, I wil be given proper medical need..

Diclotican

[makeanoise]

29. couldn't say it any better....

Chomsky has always been able to nail exactly what most progressives are feeling, the way he expresses it leaves little room for misunderstanding.

It's not subtle either, how I wish he had more US media exposure and how i wish the DEMS had the balls and the intelligence this man had.

well said Mr. Chomsky!

[Uncle Joe]

38. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, LongTomH.

[LaPera]

40. There is absolutely no doubt republican ideology is corporate fascism

It's why so many republican industrialist & politicians sympathized, supported and did considerable business with the Nazi's before and during World War II - Not the least of whom was the idiot George W Bush's granddaddy, Prescott Bush who at the time was a US Republican Senator.

[RoccoR5955]

74. K & R,,, Chomsky is one of the best

philosophers of our time. His analysis of current events is astounding. How he distills them, and gives us what they really mean is just as remarkable.
Thanks for the thread.

[iandhr]

86. NOTHING CAN BE COMPARED

TO THE SLAUGHTER OF 6 MILLION PEOPLE.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

98. way to dumb down the discussion with knee-jerk bullshit

did you even watch the video?

he's not comparing rightwing radio to the Holocaust.

He's pointing out similarities in the way rightwing propagandists advance their arguments to the types of propaganda used in germany that brought the Nazis in to power.

and he's right.

[DuaneBidoux]

94. I read a bunch of Chomsky in my anthropology undergraduate. He deeply influenced me.

He had a unique idea of a "deep structure" in the form all language took in the species. His workvbased mostly on secondary data such as 3rd person description of language is now being found valid by some of the evolving "hard" "soft" sciences such as bio-linguistics.

He's more brilliant and more evolved than ever.

[DuaneBidoux]

96. Sorry wanted to add: He is a brilliant man. And he is speaking truth.