It's Easter Eve, and my Multi-Cultural Extended Family Won't go to Church!

[KoKo]

We have a huge amount of "fallen away Catholics, some Protestants and some Skeptics.

Yet they've watched the Religious Right take over America and the REFUSE to STRIKE BACK!

Why is it that the children of Parents raised in Catholic and MAINSTREAM Protestant faiths REFUSE to find a Church who can satisfy their "fallen away ethics?"

BECAUSE...by not finding your own reconciliation with the "failings" of your "mainstream" or "childhood faith" YOU ALLOW THE FUNDIES TO RUN OUR GOVERNMENT!

Where are you CHRISTIANS? The ones who don't follow Falwell/Dobson and the others who are blasphemers?

Why do YOU ALL REFUSE to find a Church or GROUP who can put forth the basic principles of the New Testament and what that "hippie Jesus" taught us?

If we have a hope to take back America then we need to pick out the New Testament Humanistic teachings and Push Back and Root Out the Corporatist EVIL of the Falwell's/Likudists/and Extremists of ALL SIDES?

Anyone else having trouble within their OWN families with fallen away Religous...and yet YOU are not ready to "give it all up?

On Easter EVE?

What's the REAL MESSAGE of Christians?

[eleny]

1. Have you been nipping at the cooking sherry?

[KoKo]

5. no....I just spent a day with fallen away Catholics, Episcopalians and

a Baptist Fundie who used to play trumpet in fundie religious cult band.

None of them will set foot in a church again. I also have one Wiccan friend...who just can't deal with it all.

If NO ONE will deal with IT ALL...then the Fundies WIN!!!

I'm not "nipping at the sherry" this is my family....:-(

[eleny]

10. You've made some assumptions that aren't necessarily accurate

And you've got expectations about church-going that nobody is obligated to satisfy. Why not chill and enjoy your holiday as best you can. Your demands are pretty much over the top, imo, and might serve to alienate you from your loved ones. They sound like people who know how to think for themselves.

As someone else replied, going to church isn't necessarily the way to fix what's going on in the country. That reply sounded quite sensible.

[Warpy]

11. Churches aren't the only places to gather

and letting the fundies and Calvinist assholes who drove us out "win" is exactly what they deserve. One thing you can say about Calvinists, they're stingy, and those churches will be hurting with all the liberals gone.

It's normal for people who have been turned off by one church to be turned off to all of them for a while. Believers will eventually go back and try to find a sane church. Skeptics are generally not joiners and will find other ways to volunteer their time.

You can't decide anyone else's belief system and trying to guilt them all into some church is simply not going to work. They won't like you for it and family gatherings will become even more tense.

If one of the believers ever says something about missing the community afforded by a church, then you can suggest the Unitarians. Otherwise, just let them be who they are.

[the observationist]

2. I'm a fallen Christian by your definition

but I believe in God and Christ. I left the "church" for many reasons, but the main one was that they were preaching Bush politics from the pulpit. I don't see a whole lot of Christ in the Bush or the R party. Someone once said that there was a liberal, open-minded church in town, but I never followed up. I can't speak for all Dems, but in my opinion we get tired of hearing the do's and don'ts of Christianity rather than the love of Christ. In my opinion, the man-made church has fallen.

[KoKo]

7. as an Episcopalian...when they call for prayers for "George Bush

our "President" I had to have my hubby restrain me from jumping up and yelling: "I've prayed for that George Bush...but neither HE listened or even my GOD listened when America invaded Iraq and brought MISERY,DEATH and DISTRUCTION on them...and on our OWN who were innocent in being sent there.

I could not go back to my CHURCH because they constantly PRAYED for HIM!!!

HE WILL NOT LISTEN... There's a CRISIS THERE!!!

[RB TexLa]

12. At our Easter Vigil tonight, the prayer was for

"leaders" and all of us to do our part to bring about peace to the world created by God.

[annabanana]

43. It is part of the service. Prayers "for the President"..

and all in power, worldwide.. Our services never mention the guy by name.

In some forms it's followed by "Lord, hear our Prayer", and in some by "Lord, Have Mercy".

I have no problem praying for God to break through to that pig headed, wrong way, murderous, amoral, avaricious, atrocity. Who know? If we reach "critical mass" the devil-formed bubble might weaken. I don't believe that anyone is beyond redemption.

[bliss_eternal]

8. I left one of those, too...

Quote:
the main one was that they were preaching Bush politics from the pulpit

This was an alleged non-denominational church. My husband was already done with the Catholic church and their need to aid and abet child molesters. We hoped non-denominational would be better. We were wrong.

[KoKo]

13. I know that folks replying are probably conflicted like me... or may you

feel you've resolved it all...

But, EASTER is tommorrow...and it's RE-BIRTH...and WHY HAVE WE LET THESE FUNDIE/BLASPHEMERS and some PEDOPHILES because of Church Politics LEAVE US CHRISTIANS IN THE DUST?

Does ANYONE THINK that the Neo-Cons have given up their religious affilications because they sent America off to war to kill their version of "infidels?" Does ANYONE THINK that the Neo-Cons aren't where they need to be during their religious holidays?

Why then are we Christians denying WHO WE ARE ...because some Pedophiles and Corporatist P.T. Barum Hawksters (religous Fundies i.e. Falwell, Dobson, Robertson, etc) managed to get the "ear of CNN/FAUX/MSNBC and the
whole Radio Spectrum plus the Networks?

We NEED THE POWER! They are sitting and laughing...while some Opus Dei, Likudists/Fundies DRIVE THE REST OF US OUT OF CHURCH!

Or...are many saying that we shouldn't blame the MEDIA POWER? We should blame the FAILURE OF THOSE OF US WHO BELIVED IN OUR MAINSTREAM CHURCH VALUES???? :shrug:

[saracat]

28. Some of us no longer believe in organized religion.

I was raised as a Catholic , educated in Catholic schools and I will NEVER step foot in any kind of a church again. There are many reasons for my decision. Some are personal, others are obvious. I have no desire to find another church.Why would I even think of such a thing? I am probably not Christian anymore and I don't feel I need a "crutch" Why do you seem to think we all should be part of the "opium of the people' ? Can't we depend on our faith in ourselves?

[bliss_eternal]

39. That's where I am too, saracat.

:hug:

I only ventured into a non-demoninational because this one tried not to do all the things more traditional churches do. Long story short, beyond one of the pastor's need to stump for bush from the pulpit I was tired.

My husband, like saracat was educated in Catholic school, had attended Catholic churches his entire life--we married in the Catholic church as I was raised with it, too.

We both believe we can have spirituality outside of church. We choose to do so without religion.

I'm sorry this is upsetting you, koko01. But what works for some isn't going to work for all. Continue to practice your religious beliefs, but try to understand that not everyone that left church did so because of the right wing or the funides. If I REALLY wanted to attend church, I would. But I sincerely don't.

[NVMojo]

3. the fundies of the Bush generation are the worst thing to happen

to Christ since the crucifixtion.

[silverweb]

4. Sorry.

Joining "a church" isn't something people have to do to fight the radical right.

Trotting off en masse to pray a set formula of prescribed devotions on demand in a public setting is not necessary for a person's spirituality.

Maybe the members of your extended family are just sick of all the posturing among various churches and prefer to commemorate the occasion privately and personally.

As for myself, if I felt pressured to "go to church," I'd be sure to dig my heels in and refuse.

[KoKo]

9. How then do we ever confront the Right Wing Fundamentalists, then???

:shrug:

[greyl]

16. Wal-Mart!

and it's just as unlikely you'll find me inside one of those. :)

www.walocaust.com

[KoKo]

22. How about? " McChurches"....with Plasma TV's and Silk Suited Hawkers?

who make it all seem like MTV for the Religious? Or, maybe CNBC with Bells and Whizzers...selling commercialism to the masses raised on Hype!

[silverweb]

18. Confront them how?

At the ballot box and in our everyday lives seems to me to be the best way.

Do you think gathering in various churches for different worship services "confronts" them?

What happens IN church means absolutely nothing without what happens OUT of church.

[KoKo]

24. I think that we've allowed THEM to take up the message for COMMON

GOOD! Don't we have SOME PRINCIPLES that we could stand UP FOR?

I got mine from my New Testament Religious Upbringing...I was outraged at "SELCTION 2000!" Now I could have been "non-religious" and just read alot of Aesop's Fables or writings with morality themes from other cultures.

We all can find "principles" that we found "somewhere" to understand our OUTRAGE of what's been done by the Bushies and others in "OUR NAME" ...but I can bet you that many here on DU came to their beliefs through some sort of religious training.

However we got there...we need to stand up...and back up our priciples...whatever way we came to them....but if it was some kind of religious background then we BETTER START STRIKING BACK!

Our Dems can't do it alone. And Politics won't do it alone...being that these days it's not just a COMPROMISE between Commerical Interests and What's Good for the Common Folk i.e. "Average Americans" but what's good for the Tom Delay/Bush II type Religious and the REST OF US ...FALLEN AWAYS...that they USE...because they "THINK" we DO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING!!!

[silverweb]

37. I understand where you're coming from now.

But I don't think our flocking to progressive counterparts of their RW religious indoctrination centers is the answer.

My mind is strongly drawn back to a scene of Starhawk's The Fifth Sacred Sign in which a hilltop is the scene of multiple and varied religious/spiritual observances.

Each family and religious community has its own site on this hilltop to conduct such observances as it pleases... all within sight of each other, all with respect and tolerance from/for each other -- the Catholic nuns, the Jewish clan, the Wiccans with a labynrinth, the Buddhists with a prayer garden... all able to observe when and as they please, with respect for their neighbors to do the same.

So tell me again why we need to fight the radical right by following their pattern of flooding en masse on specific dates to specific places to pray in prescribed ways per a specific doctrine.

Nah.

Pray in your own way on your own time ... and more importantly,

LIVE your faith.

[saltpoint]

6. Such a prickly thing that Constitution is, giving anybody in town

the right to go to church or not.

[KoKo]

15. One always has that RIGHT...but when the RIGHT RULES...shouldn't

those of us who really are affiliated with Christianity in some form of belief...STAND UP?

I am a Christian....but am not a believer in literal interpretation of whatever political body has defined "their" latest political version of the "New Testament" to be.

:shrug:

[saltpoint]

17. Ain't nobody stopping them is there?

I'd like to see "Christianity" become the leftist force it seems designed to have been in the first place, before the goddamned Paulists and early Bishops got their evil little fingers on the gospels.

I'd like to see that return as a force, yes. But in the meanwhile, I don't think mainstream churches and certainly not the fundy churches are doing anything much to attract progressives.

The mainstream protestant congregations, just to single out one branch, are quarreling like idiots over gay marriage, over gay priests. The Catholic Church, to single out another branch, refuse to ordain women even as their priests' numbers dwindle.

What's the attraction, exactly, for a progressive?

I like Bill Moyers. He's a Baptist, a Texan, a liberal, and has a full command of the language.

I'd go to hear him speak on the truer veins of Christian thought any day of the week.

[KoKo]

20. I know...I hear what you say..

But, still...unless many of us get our butts back in gear...what is happening? The damened Falwells, Opus Dei (Cokie Roberts, etc.) Likudists and others are DEFINING WHO WE ARE?

While we take pride in our "fallen away" status...THEY ARE WINNING!!!

But, I hear ya........

[saltpoint]

23. You know, KoKo01, I would be pleased to see a cadre of progressive

spiritual people -- of any and all stripes, doesn't matter -- play the same public role for Falwell and Robertson et al as the Swiftboat folks did with Kerry, only instead of telling lies and smearing someone's character, they would challenge the televangelists etc. on the points. You know -- they'd speak in clean, true defiance against the false claims and demogogery of the Far right nutcases.

What Move.On.org is to the political arena, this cadre could be for the spiritual arena, with the ultimate goal of uniting and motivating spiritually left folks and joining them together.

I think I could get behind that sort of thing, and I'd contribute time and cash.

[KoKo]

25. Ain't that the damned Truth of it!

Where are They.........I've been waiting ....and am a fallen away religious myself looking for those in my FAITH who will stand UP!

But, I think my post was about...why we "fallen away" haven't stood up.

I was horrified that on Easter Sunday the Pundit shows are going to have Jerry Falwell as a GUEST!

I read here on DU that the Mainstream Protestants were going to make an effort to pressure the Cables to include voices that weren't from the Fundamentalists/Literalists in their Bible interpretations.

I think it must have been just a PR STUNT...when I saw the post here on DU that Falwell was the Easter Guest on the Sunday "Talking Heads Shows."

It tears me in knots about this.... Cowards. I swear these "Mainstream Churches" in today's America would have stood by while the trains passed by on the way to Concentration Camps in Nazi Germany...and they would have denied it ever happened.

But, without our OUTRAGE...and my own "do nothing fallen away Multi-Cultural family" getting BACK into their FAITH...then WHO CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE..

I'm just so pissed off at my Family....and MYSELF....:-(

[saltpoint]

26. I still don't see it as any fault of yours.

It's the red voters, the red-meat Far Right fundies afraid of gay marriage -- that bunch -- who stood in the rain for hours in line to vote for that little twit.

I lay the blame on them first.

The rest of us can always organize and volunteer and donate time and money.

We're on the right future track.

I'm optimistic.

And you're part of the solution, not the problem.

Be of good cheer!

[Warren DeMontague]

33. Believe it or not...

people who aren't religious and don't go to church regularly (or at all) are still perfectly capable of being a moral force in the world and actively driving progressive change.

No shit. I'm totally serious.

[knitter4democracy]

42. We already have them.

Sojourners Magazine has a great website with a lot of great ideas and stuff on it. There are groups on-line for liberal Christians. There are other more liberal churches in pretty much every town.

The thing is, those Christians who are true are busy doing the real work of being Christ in the world. They're feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and doing much for the least of these that our Savior told us to help. They're too busy to get on TV and yell and scream about anything, and they wouldn't even get there, as they wouldn't make for good ratings.

[TreasonousBastard]

14. I hear ya...

but can't think of much worthwhile to say.

Having known many people who have "fallen away" for many reasons, I would ask just why they have no interest in going back, if not to their own churches but to another that might be more in line with their ideas.

A lot of people I know just got pretty much bored with it all and found it pointless, but don't actually disbelieve. They've found better things to do on a Sunday morning, but are often receptive to a suggestion for a religious community that actually works.

The fundies have, in fact, set up spiritual communities that work for them, and the rest of us just haven't kept up the idea of religious community with all the other things that beg on our time. Religion, for moist people, is a part time endeavor, and not paricularly important one at that.

[KoKo]

19. Well said....it's what I see....and I have so many questions

after my weekend with family "fallen away" that I just had a need to post on DU to get more perspective.

Thanks...you said what I'm thinking...I just think to counter the Religious Right Wing "literal interpretation" those of us who believe in some basic tenants of what an historial consesus of the basic teachings of Jesus were....maybe need to find some WAY to get that MESSAGE OUT THERE!!!

And our own MAINSTEAM FAITHS seem to be as "spineless" in "push back" as some of us feel our own Dem Party has been. :shrug:

Without some code of ethics or values how can we STAND UP and FIGHT?

If one falls away from all ethics or core of values then what are we? Who are we...what do we stand for?

Why so many "ostriches with heads in the sand?"

I just can't understand it....:shrug: And to talk to former Catholics who will no longer go to church because of the Priests and to talk to former Mainstream Protestants who can't go to church because they don't know what to believe...yet see in my Red State the rise of the BIG BOX WALMART CHURCHES...with Plasma TV's that cue folks with a rolling ball how to sing a hymn or how to read a passage in the Bible and to see the kids be with the "Contemporary Rock & Roll...or Country and Western...PRAISE JESUS type of Music.....I really don't even know the hell what I'm thinking any more.....

We are CONFUSED....We "maistreams"...BUT...we've allowed EXTREMISTS to DOMINATE US...because we DON'T PARTICIPATE and we've allowed the EASTER BUNNY and COMMERCIALISM to DOMINATE US...and that allows the Fundies to got at us from every side....

Pretty soon the Fundies will declare WAR ON THE EASTER BUNNY....Then what? Parents trying to teach some values while not taking kids to church will then not even be able to talk about the Bunny as Spring and Spring is Awakening and Renewal and a chance to do GOOD for the NEW YEAR and to cleanse the bad stuff and replace it with new blooms for good.

How will kids even be able to distinguish between "good and evil" and what "renewal means."

Will they think that "renewal" means when P-Resident George gave up his Coke and Booze and became "born again?" How does one explain this to ones little kids...?

[TreasonousBastard]

27. I became a Quaker for those reasons, and...

am now attending a local UU church in my new town. Nice thing about both of them is that they don't bother you with doctrine or possibilities in the afterlife, but concentrate on living a proper life here and now.

It's not really the denomination, but the individual congregation that counts, and the other things they sponsor. Those holy Presbyterians have the Witherspoon Society that some of their churches take very seriously. Catholics have not only Opus Dei, but Pax Christi.

Even Baptists have the Welcoming and Affirming Baptists and the fledgling Baptist Peace Federation of North America and are heavily into Every Church a Peace Church. Not many Baptists there, but they exist and are growing.

United Church of Christ has many liberal Congregational churches, and I've been to some Methodist and Reform churches that are hotbeds of social action.

The list goes on with Lutherans, Episcopalians... so many churches have peace, social action, and community intergal to them, vbut so many others do not. And it's largely the tone set by the clergy and congregation in each individual congregation regardless of what the denomination itself may say.

And every one of these that I have had anything to do with has stood out there saying the message of their Christ is peace and prosperity for all. And none of them insist on doctrine, creeds, or decrees when it gets down to the individual and his or her needs or spirituality.

But, so many more don't. So many are either locked into doctrine or struggling to survive to get past the sermonizing that worked for them in the past.

The fact remains that the fundagelicals need their churches a lot more than the rest of us think we do.

[Warren DeMontague]

31. Actually, the Easter bunny is an ancient pagan symbol representing sex.

And more power to 'im, as far as I'm concerned.

[KoKo]

34. lol's...maybe he represents "sex" to some...but not to others...but thanks

for whatever......

[Warren DeMontague]

35. Where do you think the eggs (fertility) and bunnies (sex) come from?

Jesus?

[bumblebee1]

21. I was at my nephew's wedding Mass last summer.

My sister was leading the "Lord, hear our prayer." n She asked for prayers for our president and all the world leaders. It took an awful lot of restraint to keep from saying about praying for the President: May he get a brain and then a clue.

[KoKo]

32. I know...what one has to "cough down" to keep "peace" in one's family

these days. If all the "prayers for our P-Resident" could matter then he'd have changed course long ago.

And, to sit and have to listen to that crap because we don't want to hurt our kids or relatives .....well...it's really too much to bear when one wants to yell out: "WOULD YOU HAVE PRAYED FOR HITLER???!!!! WOULD YOU??? WOULD ALL YOUR PRAYERS HAVE CAUSED A MAD MAN TO CHANGE?

WHEN IS EVIL JUST EVIL!...AND NO AMOUNT OF PRAYER WILL CHANGE?

When does Principle of GOOD CAUSE FOLKS TO RALLY? TO ROUT IT OUT? WHEN DOES FORGIVENESS Pale as a Concept because the EVIL IS TOO GREAT?

I don't know....I wish the heck I did....but I know that what's going on here in America...with these people...torture of the most inhumane kind and LIES, Deceit and the rest...just doesn't fall into any category of how fellow humans should treat each other....Mainstream Religion or whatever one has found to guide them as principle through life.....

It's just Evil is ...as Evil does. Call a Spade a Spade ...whatever.......

[bumblebee1]

45. KoKO1

My nephew would have had a good chuckle. He was a Kerry supporter.

[cynatnite]

29. Well, if I thought organized religion was worth anything...

sure, I'd find a church...but, nope. ain't gonna do it.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. So?

I'll say it again.


So?

[alittlelark]

36. The REAL MESSAGE - go into your 'closets' to pray

Those that do otherwise are Pharisees/Heretics. Jesus made the ways to worship well known in his Gospels......NONE of them involved 'praying for all to see'.

Too bad modern-day 'Christians' ignore the New Testament.

[dweller]

38. i recommend the cooking sherry

and let's just call it communion.

Peace KoKo01,
dp

[knitter4democracy]

40. For us, it's not Easter yet.

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, it's Palm Sunday today. We still have Holy Week coming up and Holy Pascha next week.

I'm not ready to give it all up. I was an evangelical Christian but couldn't stay in that church. I feel that God lead me and my husband to the Eastern Orthodox Church--it's far from perfect, but it's the best I've been able to find. Now we're in a church under the Russian patriarch that's half convert with everything in English.

The real message of Christianity has never changed. It's just that our faith has been hijacked by Phariseeical leaders. Read the Seven Woes in Matthew 23:13-36--how does that not sound like so many "Christian" leaders?

There are many, however, who are not drinking the Kool-Aid, who are faithfully trying to be as Christ-like as they can be. Don't think they don't exist just because they're not in the kleig lights screaming away.

Try hitting an Orthodox church for Easter next week--it starts Saturday night, usually around 11pm. It's definitely an experience and probably unlike anything else you've participated in.

[annabanana]

41. How about the U2 Eucharist?

New on the scene, and growing.

(with apologies for the fox link)
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,191761,00.html

[scordem]

44. What are "fallen away ethics"?

Just because someone has not replaced the church of his youth with another more in keeping with his or her changed beliefs, as an adult, that doesn't mean they have lowered their ethical stance in the least. I'm sure they are still as good a people as they were before....

[pitohui]

46. i'm sorry my friend

but my extended family has been pushed away from the church, church is not what it was when religious defended the black slave aga. the slaveholder or fought aga. jim crow

the church, today, is a prime enforcer of prejudice and hatred

the church has been assimilated

so we turn away at what has turned away from us

jesus changed and adapted, he did not just go meekly to synagogue and go w. the roman flow

i think you have to accept if it ain't working, it ain't working