Nationalism Sucks.

[LeftHander]

I can't believe some of the stuff I am reading today.

Some guy just said it is okay to deny healthcare to undocumented aliens, that includes children...

We have a a pretty big party with a broad range of ideas and values but what the hell is that!!

American's this American's that, citizens this citizens that....

FUCK THAT!

I am sick of that designation.

WE ARE ALL PEOPLE!

illegal, citizen, gay, striaight, black, white, brown, tan....blah blah blah... rich, poor....

One thing I can tell ALL who think that we need to protect our citizens first.....you go down that road there is no coming back until it is just one class, one belief, one set of values, one skin color, one orientation.

It makes me so sick to hear a white Red State Democrat taking up the flag and waving it back and forth yelling a "citizen first argument"... "I'm an Amerikuhn..don't that count for somethin'?"

Well FUCK NO IT DOESN'T.

If you are ready to deny people in need a basic right then you are nothing but a selfish brat just like any run of the mill Repuke. That goes for immigration and gay marriage.

I'm ripped up right now. Pissed off. Sick to death of Bush. Amazed he is still office. I'm sickened by paint chip eating Republicans and brown nosing hand wringing Democrats in Washington.

Then to hear it here by so many at DU....it frankly makes be gag.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE!

I hope it is simply freeper sleepers. Because I can't imagine any Democrat taking on positions that deny people rights.

ANY PEOPLE from ANYWHERE.

[Goblinmonger]

1. I'm with you

I am appalled at some of the things that are being said by Dems regarding this matter.

[FiveGoodMen]

5. But, but ...

Doesn't the Statue of Liberty say, "Screw the tired, the poor, anyone who isn't immediately useful...?"

[iamthebandfanman]

15. im pretty sure

that they had 'stay in line' 'line starts here' at ellis island.

isnt that all we are asking them to do , really ?

[Goblinmonger]

19. But if they are here

and are in dire need of medical attention, you think we should just ignore them?

[iamthebandfanman]

60. no, i didnt say that

but i dont think because they need medical attention means they can get a faster or easier road to citizenship than anybody else either.

the real question is, can I get medical attention....oh wait... i cant ...cause itd make me broke ...because i cant afford medical insurance.

[Goblinmonger]

78. Sounds like

your problem is with the medical complex and not illegals. If you are in a medical emergency, you can get medical care without insurance. Don't you think illegals should have the same level of care? That is the point of the OP.

[iamthebandfanman]

143. sure

in an emergency.
the OP says healthcare generally, not just in the event of an emergency

[AngryAmish]

86. My grandfather was sent back to Ireland, he had TB

[Goblinmonger]

91. SO

are you in favor of kicking people out of the country that are ill or not?

[AngryAmish]

95. Well, you can't tell from my comment

[Mrspeeker]

2. agree We are all people

We are a world that needs to start thinking globally what happens to people in this world is our problem to because we are all in this together!

When will discrimination end?
People are People!

[Don Claybrook]

3. Please allow me to attach my name to your words

I've been silent about all of this immigration noisemaking the last several days. I haven't read anything yet that I agree with more than I agree with your post.

Nationalism sucks.

Thank you.

[Ksec]

4. Maybe youre sheltered from the effects

I see from your profile you live up in Wisconsin.

Maybe when it reaches up there and your streets become gang infested crime waves, full of homeless people youll feel differently. Until then , lay off.

[LeftHander]

6. Milwaukee....murder capital....every day another death.

I guess you need to drive through Milwaukee....it is everywhere man.

Our own citizens do most of the shooting. So don't sing me the sob...crime song.

That is pure BULLSHIT.

People resort to violence when they persistenly shit on over and over and over again....it doesn't matter who they are or where they are from.

[Ksec]

14. OK so your own citizens are killing each other

And you say its because they are shit on (which is generally because of poverty and other great things, like outsourcing) . I agree totally. So how is adding 12 million more people living, in those roles on the streets, good ? We have enough problems as it is with our own citizens. For the life of me I dont see how allowing a entire country to immigrate here is going to do anything but make more unemployment and all the lovely things that spawns. How is that good for anyone?

[LeftHander]

28. Apparently it is not good for you....so it seems...

That you want to deny people something as basic as healthcare base don citizenship. Pretty selfish.

Maybe some Americans...would like to go to Mexico and live and work...everthink about that....maybe someday that will happen. If it hasn't already. Americans are already investing billions in development and job creation in Mexico. Soon WE will be going there to look for a better life. Hell many already have.

The world is changing. It is becoming borderless. Face it....the "American way of life" is a dinosaur. it has become a lazy, bloated, unfair, small brained animal destined for extinction. America will persist but it is not going to become the pre-war " Ideal Germany" that many here want.

Nope. It will be a much different place. A new melting pot that starts at Hudson bay and extends to the Magellian Straights...

Racists need not apply.

[Ksec]

33. Realists need not apply

Wow, you have a lovely way of looking at the World. It'd be great if it were really like that , but unfortunately it isn't. You fix your own problems before you take on the entire worlds. We haven't even begun to fix our own yet and you wanna save the world. Baby steps . And I hope you didnt just call me a racist. Ill have you know my children are black, my wife is hispanic, and my parents came from VietNam. Just kidding. Lightening the sour mood a bit.

[LSK]

39. the illegals are not the problem

This is:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2006-04-09-ceo-compensation-report_x.htm

[Goblinmonger]

8. Dad?

I thought you died last year?!?

Seriously, so your answer is to just send back AMERICAN CITIZENS to Mexico because they are too young to live without their parents? Your answer is to deny medical treatment to a HUMAN BEING that is in need of it because they aren't a citizen?

Nice. I think there are other websites out there that would agree with you more on your stance in this issue. www.freerepublic.com

[Ksec]

20. So..

Millions of Americans cant get healthcare. Lets add another 12 million that cant get healthcare. Sounds kind of dumb . How is adding twelve million more to the already swamped healthcare system in this country ,supposed to happen. Open to suggestions, son.

[Goblinmonger]

23. Well

They are here already. What is the future impact that you are talking about?

But secondly, the OP was about turning these people away when they need health care. Badly need health care. What should we do then as a "developed" country? What would you suggest as a progressive that we do in that situation?

Finally, what about the fact that these kids of illegal immigrants that were born here are AS MUCH A US CITIZEN AS YOU AND I? What do we do with them. Bushco sends them back to Mexico. Sound fair to you?

[Don Claybrook]

24. here's a starter suggestion

How about nationalizing health care and bringing costs under control? You'd have to start by throwing out most everyone currently serving in Washington, but I'm good with that.

Health care is a problem with an extra 12 million on the books the same as it would be with 12 million less on the books. It's by-and-large a racket designed to squeeze every penny out of you that it can. The underlying problem isn't the foreigners that you don't like; it's the corporate-controlled healthcare industry.

[Ksec]

30. So

How do we change the corporate controlled healthcare system? I agree that everyone should get healthcare if needed, but were already turning down millions and this movement to privitise everything along with the new global economy ....thats a bit daunting. I think we need to focus on providing healthcare for our own citizens first, and then we could work on fixing the rest of the world. I would love to be able to provide for everyone, but to me that will come after we fix our own internal problems. Once we do that then we can talk about fixing world problems.

[Don Claybrook]

43. how do we change corp controlled healthcare system?

You walk in the door and take over. I realize that this will never happen with the current set of players in Washington. But that's also the reason that this problem is much larger than one of immigration. It's a problem that exists whether we have illegal immigration or not. We are a large country and we can do more than one thing at a time.

Thanks.

[LostinVA]

26. Talk to the government about the lack of Healthcare

We can and should have an NHS... blame YOUR government for the mess, not anyone living -- and working -- in this country. It's their fault. Apples and oranges... but you know that.

I think it's time to put you -- and your disgusting racist avatar -- on ignore. Not fooling anyone with that, either... as other posters have noted.

[Ksec]

37. Please do

You have contributed nothing but namecalling to the debate. If you had any ideas , you could actually contribute without the childish remarks.

[Horse with no Name]

66. Yet the Republicans wanted to keep Elian.

:crazy:

[xchrom]

11. hey i live in mexifornia -- and i LOVE it.

oakland where shit is really tough -- and i don't want to exclude healthcare to anyone.

so called ''illegals'' come here make this a better place -- not worse.

so i suggest you lay off.

[LostinVA]

22. So... immigration brings gangs, crime waves, homeless people

NIce to know none of this existed before the "current" probl-- oh yes! It has! IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN LIKE THIS.

And, before you start your usual stuff: lots of immigrants in VA and NC, where I moved from before here. Actually, some of the fastest growing immigrant populations are in these states. I grew up in NJ, moved from there in 1982 -- and this same damned Bircher rhetorics was going on THEN -- about legal Puerto Ricans. Like it did about Krauts, and Micks, and Bohunks, Wops, Chinks, Japs, etc. It never ever stops -- the GOvernment just pulls out the bugaboo whenever they need something...

Unless you're 100% Native American, your ancestors also contributed to "the immigration mess" of their era.

[K-W]

180. Why blame poverty when we have immigration to scapegoat.

I grew up in a rich CT suburb with lots of immigration... doctors from India that is. And let me tell you, the gangs were aweful...

[radio4progressives]

32. Bullshit.

You're not going to get away with this canard. I live in California, and have for all of my adult life and short time in Santa Ana in the early/mid fifties when most of Orange County were bean and onion fields and Orange Groves.

In the 1930's, 1940's and 1950's and to this day, the White Privigled class made their wealth off the sweat blood and tears of migrant workers from MEXICO, particularly in California Oregon and Washington in Big Agricultural business that put FOOD on your goddam plates for CHEAP.

Demonization of undocumented workers is the same goddam thing and absolutely no different as the demonization of African Americans post Reconstruction and to this day.

BASTA!

[cali]

7. Or in more elegant words:

"Nationalism: A state of mind in which a man hate another's country more than he loves his own."

- Freidrich Reck Malleczewan

[Finder]

9. Nationalism is the first step to fascism. n/t.

[Goblinmonger]

13. Much like the words of Sinclair Lewis

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

[LostinVA]

107. And that has always been so true...

[Crazy Guggenheim]

10. I have no problem about helping people with a "human need", such as

a medical need, etc. even if they are illegal. However the larger problem I see is the open border and labor problems.

That's all I have to say.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

12. I agree with in in principle

that we are all humans, obviously, and need to help one another. But given the logistics of the situation, the finite supply of dollars, what is your solution?

Mine is to get out of Iraq and spend the money elsewhere, but that isn't happening.

[Goblinmonger]

16. Grannie

Why do you hate America?

If we spent just a percentage (and a small one at that) of the Iraq money on education and health care, we would see fantastic improvements.

Sometimes we just suck as a nation.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

34. Indeed we do

what we could do if we really put our minds to it. We'd have money and resources to welcome the entire country of Mexico and put on a heck of a Cinco de Mayo celebration.

[LeftHander]

21. Out of Iraq good first step...no doubt.

Then lose the conservative strangle hold on the media...

Enter into talks with Canada and Mexico to create a "open border". People free to move about. To work to live.

You can't force balance and harmony. It has to happen naturally.

Hell I would like to go work in Canada....or Mexico. How cool would that be?

To live and be accepted, sounds idelaistic but why can't we be for harmony and peace?

What is wrong with those things?

I'm simply not accepting any argument that is based from a nationalistic viewpoint. And I am not going to let people tell me who belongs where and for how long.

Economically we are all becoming more and more tied together. We now have to accept that we really all do belong together.

I leave to policy makers to work out the details....on that...but lets first remove corporate and military influence from every goddamn policy we make.

And people who believe we are equal need to start acting like we are equal....

And to quote a old gospe tune...start living the life we sing in our songs....

[radio4progressives]

17. Hey LeftHander, You're singing my tune...

What's wrong these people? they're a bunch of fvcking freaking terra-stricken, ignorant racists morons ..that's what's wrong with these people.

And it can be all boiled down to the White Supremacist agenda.

[LostinVA]

18. I am TOTALLY behind you!

[Crazy Guggenheim]

25. LeftHander. I'm going to start a thread called Nationalism vs. Patriotism.

It's not to begin a flame war. OK? LOL.

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[LeftHander]

41. Sounds like a worthy topic for discussion...

Many similarities....where does patiotism stop and natinoalism begin....are they linear or do they coexist in parallel?

Ooowwwww.....my head...it....it...

I AM NOMAD....

I AMMMM NOMAD.........

:nuke:

[Deep13]

27. Nations are a reality, sucky or not.

"Some guy just said it is okay to deny healthcare to undocumented aliens, that includes children..."

We deny it to citizens every day. There is no national healthcare system in this country like there is in just about every other one including Mexico. I don't see why American taxpayers should foot the bill for people who have no right to be here anyway.

"American's this American's that, citizens this citizens that....FUCK THAT! I am sick of that designation."

Nevertheless, that changes nothing. People are people and people, being people, are consumers. The economy that depends on ever-growing cheap labor and ever ravenous consumption of resources cannot be sustained. How many Americans are enough? 300 million? 400M? (predicted for 2050) A billion? All that cheap labor has to live somewhere and eat something so we will need more cheap labor and energy to take care of them? Every other industrial nation has a stable population. It is only our greed that makes us different. The people who want to let everyone in for cheap labor are the same ones that bitch about NAFTA! Insteading of sending jobs to cheap labor, we are bringing cheap labor to the jobs.

Nations exist because of sovereignty. Sovereignty is control over a particular chunk of real estate and its people. Possession ultimately is the right to exclude others.There is probably a better way to do things, but as along as nations do exist those nations have a right to protect their borders and their citizens. Jesus! do you expect to be able to sneak into Holland and find an underthetable job and be granted Dutch citizenship just because you evaded justice for ten years?

"One think I can tell ALL who think that we need to protect our citizens first.....you go down that road there is no coming back until it is just one class, one belief, one set of values, one skin color, one orientation."

That's horseshit. The slippery slope is a logically invalid argument. Just because a particular standard is set does not mean another one must be. If people with no legal status are allowed to remain in this country what is to stop us from sliding back into slavery? (Slippery slope again.)

"'I'm an Amerikuhn..don't that count for somethin'?' Well FUCK NO IT DOESN'T."

And with that we loose the swing voters and most of the Democrats. I think we should come out of our holier-than-thou towers and take our cues from the people instead of deriding them for not thinking like us. Give you an example. Here in Ohio in what some call the heartland, about half of Kerry voters also voted to ban gay marriage for all time. Like it or not, these are the people you need to impress to take the country back from the corporate whores.

"I'm sickened by paint chip eating Republicans and brown nosing hand wringing Democrats in Washington."

At least we agree on something. Those hand-wringers, however, seem to be on your side for this issue.

"Because I can't imagine any Democrat taking on positions that deny people rights."

Rights for some invariably means the denial of rights to others. The right to be free from racial discrimination obviously (and rightly) denies the right to discriminate to others. In other cases it is more of a trade-off. The right of a landowner to exclude people from his or her property denies others the right to travel over open country. Frankly, I think that sucks. Granting rights to aliens who have sneaked into this country is unfair to those who have worked for citizenship and those who have worked to create a liveable wage for the middle class. It devalues citizenship and the law. No rights and no freedom is possiple without law to enforce it. Instead of standing up for crime, the Senate Ds ought to be standing up for those whole play by the rules.

People who tresspass into this country don't have any rights to deny. If they want rights, get a passport and come in through the normal way. I suppose you think that anyone who would deny a burglar the right to live in his house should not be a Democrat either. "But look, he fixed the sink and did the dishes!" So fucking what? He is still a burglar. Is it harsh to prosecute illegal aliens as felons? Considering that they have no legal status in this country and, therefore, may be held indefinitely without any legal recourse, I think prosecution is a humane compromise.

P.S. To clarify, I am writing only about those who sneak into the country, not about those who are "illegal" because of technical problems like an expired VISA. Those people were invited here, came with full disclosure of who they are and may very well be permitted to stay under present law once their legal issues are resolved.

[LeftHander]

38. Thanks for the middle school social studies lecture....

IN another response I told a person the this world is changing. Economically we are all very tied together and becoming more so every day. It makes sence that we all need to also become more tied together as people too.

the only reason so manycome to this country illegally is because we are selective who we accept. And since the Republicans have contolled congress over the last decade we have had tighter and tighter controls. The result is people cross the border and look for work. By the millions. And what happens? they find work. Work that was not available to them at home. But that is changing too. We are investing billions of dollars in creating jobs in mexico in a variety of industries.

We are finding that balance.

What would be best to end restrictions on immigration and simply making it okay for people to cross the borders in North America to search for work, both ways. As we invest in factories, agriculture, resorts and entertainment to Latin America.

Look around. Our cultures are already dependent upon one another. There is no going back. In my own city, the latino's have singlehandedley rescued neighborhood after nieghborhood. Bringing commerce and small scale economic growth. Something America abandoned for the big retail box many years ago. Now the clotheing stores that occupy my downtown where JC Pennys, Montgomery Wards and Sears once were are mexican gorcery stores, resturants, shoe stores, western clothing stores....etc...etc...

While were shopping at WalMart....a new economy formed. And we are starting to feel the effects of that.

these are all POSITIVE things that will be destroyed if we yank the rug out from under our friends to the south....

yes our FRIENDS.

When you look at it from this perspective...what each of us have gained by our cultures integrating together there is not anyother solution but to open our arms and say...Welcome.

[Deep13]

42. 'scuse me for condescending, but your post suggested ...

...that you did not understand why nations are nations.

"the only reason so manycome to this country illegally is because we are selective who we accept"

We are more restrictive than Canada, but less restrictive than most other industrial countries. At any rate, the fact that people break the law is not a reason to change it. That is the rationale Hannity uses to say Bush show be allowed to spy on people in violation of FISA.

I agree that illegal aliens provide many valuable services. The fact that we need them to do it is a problem, not an indicator of success. As I said, our system feeds on itself. Because we are greedy and wasteful and because windfall profits stay at the top, we need cheap labor and cheap resources. That cheap labor requires yet more resources and services to support it. It is not sustainable. This is why OPEC runs our country, China owns our treasury and perfectly good farm land and forests are disappearing for suburban sprawl. We must end this by capping our population growth (of which immigration is the sole cause), causing the rich to spread the windfall and capping the consumption of nonrenewable resources like open space and energy use.

[LeftHander]

50. Just becasue it is the way things are....

doesn't mean that they are to stay that way.

So many times we see refusal to accept inevitable change because of the way things are or this is how we do things.

To me that is conservatism. Refusal to change on a basis that it has always been done thus. Progress requires change.

real progress is when we recognize that change is going to take place or has already taken place and then recognize it.

Take a look at the millions of people in the street.

MILLIONS

Americans were so full of ourselves we never even saw the cahnge occur...I did. MOst kept eyes closed and heads down as entire sections of EVERY CITY in America became latino. We allowed it happen.

No crime has been commited by honest hard working familes that came here....even the illegal ones.

ONe of our greatest strengths as a nation is our immigrants both legal and illegal. Many nations are growing older and the work force is gettign older and older and the available work force is getting too young and to few to cope with global economic growth.

India has the strongest population pyramid. the majority of the nation is under 30. Japan on the other hand has the inverse. they have next to zero immigration a rapidly aging population that will drain the economy as they grow old. America does to. We need the infux of families and young people to pay for care of the againg population.

Let them come. Open the doors.

Stop kidding ourselves the baby boomers are going to cost billions and billions of dollars to care for as they grow old and we need a new influx of immigrants to keep our poplulation balanced and the work force strong.

Rule of Law...is a double edged sword and is only valid based on how that sword is used. Behinfd any law is the essence of fairness and justice. Bush breaking a fair and just law does not require changing and needs to be enforced.

Immigrants coming to this country illegally are not to be punished by a law that is no longer fair or just in for our time.

Are we still going to arrest people for dancing..? Many states still have laws that ban dancing on Sunday's.

So the Bush/Hannity argument doesn't fly.

We need immigrants now more than ever. Our population is aging. Our time is slipping away and a new America is going to emerge long after we are gone. It will be much different that the one we know today. I hope I get to see some of the New America before I die....

If you don't know what that New America is...go spend some time in your local latino neighboorhood and find out.

[Deep13]

54. Unless a population pyramid can create a real estate pyramid...

...your model is unsustainable.

"We need the infux of families and young people to pay for care of the againg population."

And who will pay for them when they are old? More people will create more labor but also a demand for it. It will not create more energy, natural resources or undeveloped land. What will we do when the entire nation looks like the Northeast seaboard? Don't you understand that the more people there are, the less each one is worth? So we will produce less. If there are less people to need products, that will be a good thing. Do you care at all what all this production is doing to this once lush planet? It now appears to be in a death spiral because of us--Americans. The icecaps are melting, the reefs are dying, there are huge dead zones in the water where nothing can live. The water is poisoned, the air is unbreathable, cities in the desert are one water stoppage away from disaster and the lakes here in Ohio have not frozen in years.

"So the Bush/Hannity argument doesn't fly."

The Bush argument is to let them stay to provide cheap labor.

The bottom line is the vicious cycle you are advocating will ultimately kill itself. An economy cannot expand forever. Besides, our economy is bigger than it has ever been, so production is not the problem. For America to say we need more labor, more energy and more jobs is a bit like a fat man saying he needs more Twinkies. Economists need to learn how to subtract.

[LeftHander]

84. So turning away immigrants is going to solve what?

It will actually create more problems that we would gain.

The world is changing. we can't continue to live as we have for the past 30 years and expect this world to survive.

"And who will pay for them when they are old" - People have a funny way of making more people.

Here is where we are:

1. Oil is a finite resource
2. Populating is growing
3. American consumer culture is poisonous to the planet


We will learn to live with less. And we will learn to live together. Immigrants included.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. "Patriotism is the most foolish of passions and the passion of fools."

Schopenhauer

"Patriotism is the egg from which wars are born" - DeMaupassant

[Deja Q]

64. John F Kennedy must've been one muthafuckaofafool then...

"Ask not what your country can do for you... but what you can do for your country."




:hide:

[Lib Grrrrl]

31. But...But...But

And I know you will hate me for this...but damn it...I was born here. I'm a citizen! and if there is not enough to go around, then it damn well ought to be ME FIRST.

I'm over a year unemployed now, so cut me a break, okay? i'm sick and tired of everyone else GETTING...while I keep GETTING SCREWED.

[radio4progressives]

35. i'm unemployed too, job was "outsourced" to India.

Don't blame the indigenous workers for your job loss.

[Lib Grrrrl]

44. Well, Who DO I Blame, Then??

Because it is SOMEONE'S fault! And it sure as hell ain't mine!!

I didn't ask my company to lose it's contract...and I didn't ask the company that won the contract to recruit us to work for them...and I didn't ask that company to LIE to us about the salaries they intended to pay...and I didn't ask for my salary to get cut 40%...to the point where it was below entry-level standard for my industry!

I wasn't willing to accespt a 3-dollar-an-hour cut to do that same job and so I quit.

I haven't had a decent job since.

WHO DO I BLAME for the "race to the bottom" in terms of wages...and who do I blame for the scarcity of jobs that makes this sort of dispicable act even possible??

SOMEONE is to blame. And it sure as hell isn't me!

[Goblinmonger]

93. Yeah

you're right. Blame the spicks. It's THEIR fault.

Look, I'm sorry for your situation. I have it pretty good. I am a teacher; I have good health insurance. Did someone kick you out of teacher school? You had a job. You CHOSE to quit. I know, it was a $3/hr cut in pay. In hindsight, don't you think it might have been better to keep the job?

Scarcity of jobs? Really? Or do you mean scarcity of jobs that you would do? Because you could come here to central Wisconsin and there are signs on a hell of a lot of convenience stores looking for 3rd shift people. Just saw a sign on 3 different department stores looking for night stockers. They even provide benefits for those people.

But, you know what? Just keep blaming the beaners. It must be THEIR fault.

[Lib Grrrrl]

109. Yeah, You Got ALL The Answers, Don't You??

do you think I built up 15 years of professional office experience, so that I could work third shift at a convenience store, and thus become cannon fodder for some junkie who wants to rip me off for fifty bucks and a Mars Bar?

I don't think so. they don't pay enough to make me want to risk MY life on the third shift. More and more, the crooks don't just leave with the money, like they used to...now they KILL THE CLERKS!!

Well, I tell you, my life is worth more than $6.50 an hour, which is all these places want to pay. I'm not putting MY life on the line for that kind of shit wage. Maybe YOU'D like to? since you seem to think it's good enough for me, maybe it is good enough for you, too?

Tell you what, I'll take the nice job you have now..and YOU can go take the jobs you suggest are good enough for me. Hey, if they are good enough for me, then they are good enough for you, too.

YOU can go and get shot up by some guy looking to make a quick score for some crack, okay?

And, just while we're on the subject...would YOU accept a $3/hr pay cut on your job? Especially after you were specifically PROMISED that wages would not be cut? would you stay with an employer who LIED TO YOU IN THAT WAY??

No, I'll take your teacher's job. and you can fill any one of those jobs you think is good enough for me. since you have all the answers.

Hey, if it's good enough for ME...then why isn't it good enough for you?

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lib Grrrrl]

112. Excuse Me

just HOW is it bigoted, just because I do not want more immigrants here - FOR PURE ECONOMIC REASONS??

did I say one disparaging thing about them because of their race or nationality? No. I merely do not want them to do well AT MY EXPENSE.

I'm not a bigot, I do not appreciate being called one, and you had best take back the accusation.

[Goblinmonger]

114. Addressed below

Let me add bully to the list, too. "...you had best take back the accusation." Or what? You'll kick my ass?

[EstimatedProphet]

133. You answer your own question and still you complain

Think about what you said. think about how the company treated you. think about how you are now apologizing for them.

Illegals aren't screwing you over. the company did, and the company was empowered to do so by Bush. You want to blame someone, blame him.

[Lib Grrrrl]

144. Why, Oh Why Does Everyone Here Wish To Twist My Words?!!?

Damn, this is frustrating!!

I never said illegals caused me to lose my job.

I said I fear illegals, made legal...will not be satisfied to stay in the crap jobs they now hold by force, because other jobs are not open to them due to their illegal status.

Once they become legal, they may be competing with me for jobs I might wish to fill. And I believe they will demand lower wages than I would. Which will create a downward pressure on wages.

I fear for my own economic welfare. How is it bigoted to simply not want to be pauperized?

[EstimatedProphet]

147. If they're LEGAL then why would they take less money?

That makes no sense.
You're still trying to excuse the companies hiring people as slave labor. It doesn't matter whether you said they specifically caused you to lose your job-the blame falls squarely on the companies, and you refuse to blame them for it. Instead you're claiming that illegals are encouraging companies to hire cheaply, as if they are compelled by some sort of electromagnetic force.

[Lib Grrrrl]

153. They Are Accustomed To Getting Less

Therefore...

Here, let me try it this way...

Let's imagine worker A has been getting 2 dollars an hour to pick fruit. but he has skills that mean, if he were legal, he could compete for jobs now closed to him...jobs I might wish to take.

Worker A is used to getting only 2 dollars an hour. He becomes legal. Company X has a job opening. Entry-level standard in my industry is roughly 9 dollars an hour. Company X offers Worker A six dollars an hour to do the job.

Worker A thinks he's getting a GREAT DEAL...after all, he is now making three times what he used to make. I know, though, that worker A is getting screwed. And I'm getting screwed, because now I cannot demand 9 dollars an hour for that job.

Thus, a downward pressure on wages.

See?

[EstimatedProphet]

158. And you honestly think that would work?

In this scenario, what exactly do you think would happen when everyone finds out that the company is paying lower wages to American citizens just because they are immigrants? Can you imagine the shitstorm that would come out in the press? Can you imagine how fast the workers they hired would be walking off thier jobs? Didn't YOU walk off your job because you were going to be paid less? Do you honestly think that illegal immigrants are going to come here, become legal, and still act like they are illegal immigrants?

[Lib Grrrrl]

162. Yes

There would be no shitstorm in the press. Look at how much outrage Bush has committed and the Corporate Media refuses to report it!

Hell, if they won't report about ELECTION FRAUD what the hell makes you think they would report on companies paying lower wages to immigrant americans? Besides...they wouldn't be paying lower wages to immigrant Americans...in my scenario, they would be paying lower wages to ALL AMERICANS...because the born-here Americans would not be able to demand as high wages, and remain employed...or get jobs in the first place.

What would happen is that, in order to get a job at all, I would have to lower my wage demand to the level that the immigrants are asking for.

And the immigrants would not be walking off their jobs. First...companies work very hard to keep their workers stupid about how much other people are amking. How many companies do you know that have a company policy forbidding the discussion of salaries? Every company I have ever worked for had such a policy. And it's designed to keep workers stupid.

I walked off my job because I was being paid less to do the same job as before...AND because I had been PROMISED my wages would not be cut. Well, when they reneged on thier promise, I walked.

No, I don't think the once-illegals are going to continue to act like illegals. But I do not think they have enough knowledge to know what they ought to be asking for...and that they, therefore will ask for lower wages than they ought to...and they will be happy with what they get (because it'll be more than what they were getting.)

I do not think that once-illegals becoming legal will suddenly become all assertive and demanding to be paid what they are actually worth.

I think they will create a downward pressure on the wages I can demand.

That's what I think.

[EstimatedProphet]

173. Have you ever heard of Equal Employment Opportunity?

http://www.eeoc.gov/

It is ILLEGAL for a company to do what you are talking about.

A company can get away with hiring illegal workers only under a few conditions - that's why it's done off the books. They pay cash, so as to avoid records. Once a person becomes a legal worker in this country, they are required to have a social security number on file, and they can be traced. They are on the books at that point.

Now tell me a LEGAL worker, wherever they are from, is going to accept being paid less if they know they have the right to be paid more! The government, even this government, intervenes in discrimination cases all the time - do you really think that they are going to quit looking into unfair employment practices just because there are more people gaining legal status to work?

[Lib Grrrrl]

187. This Government?

Yes...I do believe this government would turn a blind eye and a deaf ear.

Since when has this government shown itself to be the friend of workers?

and, before long, the downward pressure on wages will be such that the now-legal immigrants are NOT being paid less than the born Americans...but the born Americans will be being paid less than they used to get!

[EstimatedProphet]

193. THEY CAN'T!

A business cannot simply ignore an EEO claim! And if someone files a claim, EEO is not going to get away with burying it just because Bush is in office! Don't be absurd! There is a big difference between businesses hiring people under the table unfairly, and hiring legal workers that are on file with the Social Security Administration who are able to file legitimate EEO claims! If the best argument you can come up with is that illegal immigrants are going to drive down wages AFTER THEY BECOME LEGAL, just because the government says it will ignore claims just because it doesn't wanna bother, then your argument is pointless!

[Lib Grrrrl]

195. You're Completely Missing My Point

You are refusing to admit that the less workers demand, the less they are going to get paid. It won't BE an EEO issue. Companies do their best to keep their workers stupid, anyway.

Eventually, no one will get hired, unless they want to work for the lower wages, and there will BE no EEO case.

[EstimatedProphet]

197. This is ridiculous

It is not even remotely realistic to assume that people will come to this country, become LEGAL, and then still accept wages that are lower than everyone else as a group, because they USED TO BE ILLEGAL. Why in hell will they demand less than anyone else, if they have legal status? Don't you get that they don't have a choice now because they don't have legal status, not because they like to work for less? This is paranoid nonsense.

Several people have already disproved everything you have said so far, and your answer so far has been to say no they haven't, rather than actually addressing what they say, and then just keep spouting the same nonsense as if nothing happened. Your argument is absurd-the only point you have brought up so far is that you don't have a job and you want to blame someone for it. It is a decision YOU MADE, yet somehow illegal immigrants are responsible, and still you bend over backwards to excuse the poor helpless little company for trying to cheat you. I'd swear you have Stockholm syndrome the way you keep trying to pin all your troubles on immigrants and excuse corporations.

I quit. I've already shown your arguments to be paranoid fantasy enough times. The fact that you keep rehashing them doesn't mean you're winning.

[Name removed]

201. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

159. Once the illegals become legal--they will still work for less?

I know quite a few legal immigrants. They do NOT settle for lower wages.

How are you surviving now, with no job? I know that jobs can be tough to find--but surely you've at least applied for a few? Or have you found no "jobs I might wish to fill"?

[Goblinmonger]

45. I'm sure you could

get a job picking strawberries in California for the wages that are paid to the "illegals."

[Lib Grrrrl]

46. And I'm Supposed To Live On That HOW?!?!?

considering that I live with my mom in Pennsylvania already, because I can't afford to live on my own anymore?

considering I am not willing to share a motel room full of cockroaches with nine other people, just so that I can make ends meet?

Look, i know...the illegals got it crappy...but, damn...I still say they are causing OUR wages to go down, and that is hurting us!

I have to blame someone!! Because it isn't my fault! would you like to name another candidate?

SOMEONE is to blame for the rotten conditions I find myself in...and it isn't me.

[Goblinmonger]

47. Bush

I don't know that you are correct that illegals are bringing the wage down. But if we had Americans doing those jobs, tomatoes would jump to $6/pound overnight. Cause ain't no Americans gonna do that job for those wages (re: your post).

[EstimatedProphet]

148. Not if the corporate pigs didn't expect salaries of $5 million/year

Then the prices wouldn't jump. Corporate execs want salaries in the millions, and they're hiring illegals to keep wages down so they can pocket the change.

[Goblinmonger]

156. I hear you there

but pigs will fly out of my ass before those bastards take a cut in pay.

[EstimatedProphet]

174. True, but take heart

the day is fast coming when we will forcibly shit pigs.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VLC98]

52. That would be advice, not advise. nt.

[LostinVA]

58. Lots of "Legals" do it, too -- it isn't the immigrants fault you lost

Your job -- it's the corporations who outsource and the government who allows it. Illegal hiring is causing some wages to go down, but in very few sectors.. and mainly very low-level ones. Again, blame the corporations and the government for this.

Ans, I am not being cold -- I really do understand. I was jobless for a year, and had to move in with my parents when I was 28... it sucked.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lib Grrrrl]

68. Wrong

If THEY weren't here...then employers wouldn't be able to get away with offering crap wages.

The immigrants drive wages down. Because they are willing to accept less...it hampers my ability to demand more.

And, no, I won't "shut up." Just because I disagree with you, you have no right to tell me to "shut up." Unless, of course, you are admitting that you cannot counter my argument.

My argument, for the record is this. There are a limited number of jobs available. The more people who are available to fill those jobs...the lower the wage will have to be in order to fill it. Couple that with the fact that the immigrants are willing to accept a lower wage than the average American - because the average American cannot get by on what the average immigrant will accept. The result, wages driven down to the point of unreason.

No, these are not jobs americans are unwilling to do. They are jobs Americans are unwilling to do, because they do not pay a subsistence wage.

To that end, we need to crack down on employers who exploit illegals, and shut down their businesses and imprison them.

We also need to make the adoption of U.S. labor laws and wage standards part and parcel to any "free trade" agreement.

I'm quite sure these illegals would prefer to stay in their home country, if they could make a living and support their families there.

We also need to penalize businesses who "outsource" jobs. No federal contracts for them. No tax incentives or breaks for them. We need to make it COST American business more than they will save by outsourcing. then they will stop outsourcing, and keep the jobs where they belong...HERE. And they will pay a decent and fair wage, that someone could actually live on.

Whose side are you on, anyway? I'm on the side of people.

[alarimer]

71. Well I apologize for that post

I think we basically agree.

[Lib Grrrrl]

72. Apology Accepted

I think I would prefer that conditions be made such, in their home country...that they needn't come here in droves to support their families. I think THEY would prefer it that way, too...I don't really think they want to leave their homelands...and leave their families so far behind...and be ruthlessly exploited here because of their illegal status.

even though they are ruthlessly exploited here...their lot back home is even worse, which is why they keep coming. And THAT is the root of the problem.

Like I said..I'm on the side of PEOPLE.

At the same time, I AM looking out for my own self-interest here...I'll not pretend to be entirely altruistic here. I'd like to see others do well, just not at my expense, okay?

I don't think that is an unreasonable attitude to have.

[alarimer]

74. NAFTA was supposed to help with that

But I actually think it made it worse because the only people that got rich are those that already were rich. Mexico is a very corrupt society in which the very few control the majority of the wealth and the leaders do not seem to be interested in solving that. Plus the migrant workers sent back millions which helps the economy. I hope they elect a populist in the next election, like other Central and South American countries have done. Maybe that will help in solving this issue for everyone.

I personally am not terribly worried about illegal immigration per se. Migration is the story of the human race and we can't stop it, no matter how big a fence we build. I am much more worried about the illegal wiretapping and various Republican criminal enterprises. I am worried about illegal immigration as an election issue because I think the current uproar is a Rovian plot to divert attention from the Bush family's crimes. It is extremely important that the Democrats gain control of at least one house of Congress. And we can if we can focus on the Abramoff/Delay scandal and the illegal occupation of Iraq.

[Lib Grrrrl]

Well, It Didn't!!

And, incidentally, I'm willing to bet YOU have a job. So you have the ability to CARE about other things.

I don't. Right now I could care rat's ass about wiretapping and various Repuke criminal enterprises...I CARE ABOUT GETTING A DECENT RELIABLE STEADY GOOD-PAYING JOB.

When things are okay in my pocketbook, I can start worrying about other things.

As I said...I'm betting YOU have a job already, so this stuff doesn't really affect you and your income...the way it affects me...and my ability to GET income.

Trade places with me, and then see how you feel about this issue.

[Goblinmonger]

79. Please explain

how illegals picking tomatoes and strawberries for shit wages was a result of YOUR wages being brought down. Seems like, from your description, that YOUR job was lost because of outsourcing. AND your not wanting to accept the lower wages.

Are you ready to pay the increased price for all the goods if we start increasing wages. THAT is the economic reality to your plan.

[LostinVA]

102. I asked that yesterday

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lib Grrrrl]

110. EXCUSE ME

I do not appreciate being called a "bigot."

You take that back.

I have nothing against anyone based on race, nationality, etc.

I just don't want more immigrants coming here, competing for jobs, creating a downward drag on the wage I can demand. I don't care what race or nationality they are, I don't want them here. Period. not till the economy gets better.

That's not racist. That's looking out for my own self-interest.

Oh, holier-than-thou finger-pointer, I bet YOU have a nice, steady, solid, decent-paying job, and haven't been unemployed for a year!

Let's trade places, bub, and see if you don't feel the same way I do about this.

I am not racist and I am not bigoted. I will admit to being scared shitless, because the economy sucks so bad...and I do not want policies enacted that cause it to get even worse, okay?

I do not appreciate being called a bigot.

[Goblinmonger]

113. Not sure I care what you appreciate

Let's see some of the gems that you have spouted in this thread. (Just so you know, before I responded to you the first time I did a search of everything you posted because I thought you were a freeper troll. Jury is still out on that).

First a definition of bigot from dictionary.com

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Here's a couple gems from you that seem to fit the bill--all from this thread

I still say they are causing OUR wages to go down

If THEY weren't here

the average American cannot get by on what the average immigrant will accept

Again, don't care what you appreciate. If the shoe fits, you must be Cinderella--or a bigot. Do you mean to be? Probably not. But you are. I found this most recent quotation quite ironic:

I have nothing against anyone based on race, nationality, etc.

I just don't want more immigrants coming here

Notice the word choice. Not ILLEGAL immigrants. Just immigrants. Damn foreigners. :rofl: Yeah, you're not a bigot.

[Goblinmonger]

122. Are you going to respond

to my explanation, or just continue to hit the alert button?

[Lib Grrrrl]

123. No

I have nothing to say to the likes of one who will accuse another of being a bigot, when such is not the case.

YOU obviously have a nice, steady, good job, and won't be hurt by more immigrants coming, and so YOU can afford to be on what you seem to consider the "right" side of the issue.

You have no idea what it is like to be in MY position.

I hold the position I do out of sheer "looking out for one's own self" as it were. I hold the position I do out of fear that the guest worker idea will hurt me economically. Not because I am bigoted.

And I do not appreciate being falsely labeled a bigot.

Oh, and I might add it is against DU rules to insinuate someone is a freeper troll, so I suggest you not try that one again.

[Goblinmonger]

128. Not even

an explanation of why you aren't a bigot? That makes a lot of sense. Let's see, I defined the word for you and gave three examples of things you said that matched the definition. No, wait, four things. Perhaps you might want to actually ENGAGE IN DISCUSSION about this and explain yourself. I am not the only one in this thread that thinks the things you are saying are bigotted. Being new, perhaps you might want to address those issues and make it clear to us that you aren't. Instead, you just whine about it and suggest I "not try that one again."

For the third time, I DO have an idea what it is like to be in your position. I have give two solid examples from my life now as to when I have experienced what you are experiencing. Seems you alerted on one. Perhaps you will read the other one before telling me again that I don't know what your pain is like.

Just saying that you are "falsely labeled a bigot" does not make it so. Please explain yourself.

[Lib Grrrrl]

129. I Do Not Owe You An Explanation

You made the charge. It is up to you to substantiate it.

I refute your "evidence."

I am not bigoted...I merely do not wish to have more workers available for fewer jobs. If you REALLY BELIEVE that all these "guest workers" once they are legal...will settle for only the shit jobs...and not the kinds of jobs I myself might be pursuing, then you have another thing to think about.

These illegal immigrants currently take the "shit jobs" because it is the only kind they can get, because of their illegal status. Once they become legal, do you think they will not try to better themselves, and move into the kinds of jobs I would like to do...and have the skills for?

Do you mean to tell me, you think that these currently illegal immigrants have no skills other than to be migrant farm workers? If you think THAT...then you are the bigot, not me.

[Goblinmonger]

134. You are right

You don't owe me anything. But if you don't want people to perceive you as bigotted, you may want to take some time to actually discuss what I presented.

Another hint from a former college debate coach: just saying you refute something with no explanation doesn't mean you have ACTUALLY refuted ANYTHING.

So you don't want people from Mexico coming here an bettering themselves. Is that it? And that isn't xenophobic and bigotted? Give me a break.

I don't think the only skills they have are shit job skills. But the people coming across the border are not professionals in Mexico. Or they would stay in Mexico. They are usually the native Mexicans that are crapped on by the Spanish decendants (see, not only in america do we abuse the indiginous).

You know what, address the examples of bigotry or don't. I don't care. But by not addressing them, you are letting the people that think you are a bigot continue thinking it.

[Lib Grrrrl]

140. Again, I Ask You

How is it bigoted to not want additional immigrants coming here to compete for fewer jobs? It is simply a matter of me looking out for my own economic self-interest. I don't care where they come from, I don't want them coming here...our economy cannot absorb them currently. It is as simple as that. I am not bigoted. If you could prove to me...and GUARANTEE ME that there would be no negative impact upon me, economically, I would have no problem with this "guest worker" program.

I, however, believe that it will result in a negative impact upon me, economically.

I will state, once again, for the record...I am not a bigot.

How is it bigoted to be looking out for your own economic self-interest? If the economy could be healthy, and absorb that many workers, it would be one thing. But it can't.

Ask high-tech workers how they felt about the H1B worker visa program. I suppose you think the high-tech workers who could not find jobs, as a result...and who begged the Congress to end the H1B program were also bigots, just because they were looking out for their own economic self-interest?

[Goblinmonger]

151. Here's what you need to do

Go to post 113. It is right here http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x904809#914596 ACTUALLY read it. Respond to the selections I gave you. I define bigot and I give you examples of things you say that show your bigotry. That post contains my argument as to why you are a bigot. DON'T just SAY you aren't a bigot--actually have a discussion where you talk about my evidence and explain yourself GIVEN THOSE QUOTATIONS. I will have the dialogue with you. I will listen to your arguments if you actually make them.

on edit: Please remember that the capitalizations in the quotations are YOURS and not mine. I would argue that your use of caps to highlight certain words feeds my argument about you being bigoted. You clearly make this an us vs. them discussion which hits at the heart of bigotry.

[Lib Grrrrl]

154. You Do Not Tell Me What I Need To Do

YOU can go take a flying jump at the moon.

I have nothing further to say to you.

You are absolutely REFUSING to credit my legitimate fears about my economic security, instead choosing to drag a red herring across the issue.

I will no longer be sidetracked.

My issue, and my concern, has always been for my own economic welfare. I don't give a crap if the immigrants are white, brown, black, green, or pink with purple polka dots...I don't want more immigration at this time...our economy cannot support it.

That remains my ONLY reason for being opposed to this guest worker program...and if you cannot or will not accept that, then there is nothing I can do or say to convince you otherwise.

But I refuse to be labelled a bigot, because I am not. Just because you say I am does not make it so.

Now go away, leave me alone, never respond to me again. Because I am placing you on ignore. I have had enough of you.

[Goblinmonger]

155. Hard to refute those arguments

Being an English teacher, I laughed quite hard at the irony of these two statements:

You Do Not Tell Me What I Need To Do

Now go away, leave me alone, never respond to me again.

I know you are, but what am I. Oh, wait, that's right, we aren't in grade school anymore.

I think, in the last few days, I have been trying to tell you how to get along on a site that you have been on for less than two weeks. If you don't want my help, fine. Just know that the attitude you have exhibited here (your general statement, ignoring what others say, general attitude) are not looked at positively here. If you continue, I will not be the only one to call you out. Trust me.

Though I am worried about your reading comprehension. You say this:

You are absolutely REFUSING to credit my legitimate fears about my economic security

On three different posts I talked about understanding where you are coming from. I even gave you two personal examples of times when I was in a similar situation. I am not sure how that is me REFUSING to address that issue. Though, when pressed by 3 or more different people to explain how YOUR JOB was lost to illegal immigrants, you failed to provide that explanation.

I don't give a crap if the immigrants are white, brown, black, green, or pink with purple polka dots...I don't want more immigration at this time...our economy cannot support it.

Can you not see how that is xenophobic. Plus it is nationalism to the extreme which is a vital component of facism. Something most people on DU want to fight. You did not respond to the person who pointed out to you that the US GDP is one of the highest in the world. We have enough money to deal with our problems. It is our market-based economy that is screwing people like you and me over.

I know you said you were putting me on ignore, but I am guessing that you are the type of person that cannot resist reading what somebody responds to you. :hi:

[LeftHander]

160. Might not be bigoted but certainly selfish...

"Me, me, me..." I'ts all about you....

the future of this world is one of vastly dimishing fossil fuel resources.

Continued exploitation by the wealthy of people and resources for personal profit.

Face it....We are all going to live with a lot less. Not more.

We all have to start taking our own energy needs into our own hands and be prepraed to compete with people who have a long track record of living on a lot less that we do.

So my young friend. Wake up and smell the future because you will be living with it despite these vain attempts at protectionism that the dinosaurs are laying on us now.

In the future we will be generating our own energy, solar and wind, we will collectivly growing more of our food locally in small cooperative farming ventures. We will not be driving but riding more and more mass-transit. We will be working side by side with immigrants in ever increasing numbers and we will learn to live and enjoy one another as people living in peace.

That is the future that everyone is so afraid of.

Face it grrrl....you are going to have to work, and give more, stop being so godamn selfish and expect to get the American dream simply becasue you are "American". The American dream is not a birthright any longer.

As long as people somewhere are willing to work harder for less money then you have a problem. So YOU have to get busy. Start contributing to society and stop simply taking and taking....

Give a little of yourself and you will get more out of life than moaning about immigrants and foreigners taking your job...

the immigrants make people nervous because they are reaching out and siezing the opportunities and establishing themselves in solid communities with solid families. While we argue about how to get what we deserve and complain about having to compete and spending all our money and money we don;t have on shiney trinkets, makeup, cable TV, mobile phone text messeges that say..Hi! What's Up!

Booo fucking hoo....get off your pride filled wagon and start humbling yourself. Go help someone besides yourself for change.

[Lib Grrrrl]

166. Yeah...Say That When It's YOU Who Has To Sacrifice!!

I will gladly own up to the charge of selfishness. But not bigotry.

you'd be selfish, too, in my position. How'd you like to be unemployed for nearly a year?

[LeftHander]

177. Been there...I didn't like it.

And I was dreadfully poor for a long time. Then I made a a good living for a few years and again became poor again. Now I am living light...

And I fully expect to be unemployed again at any time.

But it didn't make me bitter and selfish. I still helped my friends and neighbors and in return they helped me without even asking.

I don't think you are a bigot. But I do think you are bitter and that is sad. Becasue being bitter...is... well.... a bitter pill to swallow.

I know how you feel. It is very hard to keep from displacing anger onto others. But you should try.

We can be angry. But not at innocent people who have come to this country with nothing but a strong desire to make their lives better. To survive.

We can't hold ourselves above others and blame them for our own misfortunes in life when those had nothing directly to do with our situation.

We move on. Like the pioneers did. They survived by leaning on each other. I think you can too.

Our nation has grown so cold and callous. We have fogotten how to reach out to people. To ask for help and to even give help. This world is a hard and beautiful place. The only way any of us will truely survive is to help one another in any way we can. Locking people up, declaring entire housholds criminals and removing them from society does not solve anything.

The only special favors you will get is when you ask a neighbor for help and help a nieghbor in return.

[Lib Grrrrl]

188. Then, Since YOU Didn't Like It...

why are you asking ME to support it?

Oh, I get it...it's okay if everyone ELSE makes sacrifices...just not you!

Bet your ass I'm bitter!

No, not a bigot. I totally refute that charge. But I will plead guilty to bitterness and selfishness.

I am currently doing what little I can to better myself, and it is not easy.

I'm currently disabled, with chronic sever depression, as a result of the lack of work. I work part-time as a mystery shopper, making less than 200 a month, and get a minimal stipend from the County...in all, I live on about $350 a month. That and I do have Medicaid right now, and am seeing a therapist, and am on antidepressants...trying to get my life back.

To that end, I am enrolled in an online course trying to learn Medical Transcription, as I believe this will be an explosive growth area in the job market, as the baby boomers age, and begin to need more medical care.

My point is...I already have it hard enough, my recovery is already hard enough, and I just plain don't want anything to make it harder, okay? Now does that make me a bad person?

[LeftHander]

211. I understand...and if I can help...please PM me..

Are you in dire need...?

[Lib Grrrrl]

219. Thanks

No, not at the moment. I certainly have far less than I'd like, but not in dire need.
I live with my mom, and she isn't about to throw me out, so I have a roof and food. I am on Medicaid, and am temporarily disabled, due to depression, so I get a small stipend from the County ($130 a month) and I work part time as a mystery shopper, and earn up to $200 a month doing that.

My only bills are cell phone and car insurance. And I need the cell phone for my mystery shopper business. Student loans on forebearance.

I'm also enrolled in an online course for Medical Transcription, seeing a therapist, I have prescription coverage thru Medicaid because I'm also on cash stipend, so I can get my anti-depressants.

Additionally, I'm working with my state's Office of Vocational Rehabilitation, they will be helping me to obtain some decent interview clothes, mock interviews, and resume preparation. Currently, they are monitoring my progress with the class, to make sure I'm keeping up with it thru my depression.

They will also be helping with job placement assistance once I finish the class. Additionally, the school thru which I am taking the class will give me one year's worth of job placement assistance, once I graduate.

I don't like living the way I am, but no, not in dire need. There ARE folks out there who have it worse. I'm just wondering when the shitstorm is finally going to end...and hoping no one does anything to make my recovery even harder - like dumping 11 million once-illegals into the legal job market, and creating additional competition, and a downward drag on wages...because, the more workers available for fewer jobs means wages come down.

So, things could be a lot worse...and I'm just hoping our lawmakers will, for once, take the interests of the born Americans first and foremost. Our economy cannot absorb 11 million more people into the legal job market at this time. Not to mention how many more will come once they learn that they, too, can become legal.

There just aren't enough jobs around for that sort of thing.

Although, I do believe that, as a welfare recipient, there are certain incentives to businesses to hire me, once I'm able, as part of the welfare-to-work program.

I just need to get over this damned depression enough to where I can function well enough. Making progress, but it's slow going. I've suffered depression all my life, but this is about the worst it's ever been for me.

[Bridget Burke]

161. The jobs "I myself might be pursuing"?

What jobs are you pursuing NOW? Are you just sitting at your Mom's house, waiting for the Right Job to Come Along?

Yes, there is currently competition for many jobs. Employers look for skills. They also care about attitude.

Rather than imagining phantoms of the future no-longer-illegals who WILL better themselves--perhaps you should concentrate on improving your own lot.

[Lib Grrrrl]

168. Actually, I Am, Thank You Very Much...

I happen to be taking an online course for Medical Transcription, and the course includes one year's worth of job-placement assistance after graduation.

So, unless you know someone's situation, you can cool your finger-pointing and your rhetoric.

[Bridget Burke]

178. Don't blame the immigrants (legal or not) .....

When you find the Medical Transcription jobs have dried up. A friend lost most of her freelance work to outsourcing--to India. However, she has skills. She was able to find a job.

I am being serious here. Do you KNOW that you will have good jobs prospects in Medical Transcription? Do not simply depend on those who are selling the online course.

[Lib Grrrrl]

189. No, I Don't Know, Really

I'm taking something of a chance. But the school DOES provide one year of job placement assistance. In addition, because I am disabled (chronic acute depression) I am working with my state's Office of Vocational Rehabilitation...who will also help in that regard. I don't know what else to do, or where else to turn. Life has just been too damned hard, and I do not want anything making it harder, because if it gets much harder, I might simply crack. I can't take much more adversity, okay?

Now does that make me such a horrible person?

[Bridget Burke]

200. The "illegal immigrants" who might better themselves are NOT ...

Going to be competing for your job at any time in the near future. Please try to work on your own life right now. Do not reach out for phantom enemies.

In the long run--especially if you hope to relocate back to Texas--learning Spanish is a good job skill.

[Lib Grrrrl]

202. Yeah?

And THEM learning ENGLISH would be a good job skill, too.

[Bridget Burke]

205. I'm not just talking about immigrants--legal or not.

There are plenty of native born Americans who can speak Spamish as well as English. And the phantom competitors who haunt you are hard at work learning English. Not to mention the folks who do offshore medical transcription--who a real threat to your chosen career.

[Goblinmonger]

206. *head slap*

Do you even listen to yourself? How racist is that?

[EstimatedProphet]

184. Apparently you don't get it

You made the charge. It is up to you to substantiate it.

He did substantiate it. He gave multiple examples. And for some reason, you think refuting those examples is just a matter of saying that he needs to substantiate them.

[Lib Grrrrl]

190. I Am Not Going To Continue This Discussion

For the last time, I am not a bigot. Bitter, selfish...I'll plead guilty to both of those charges. Now, if you want to continue any discussion with me whatsoever, you will drop the bigotry charges, because I will not tolerate it.

One person was already placed on my Ignore list. And I'm warning you, you are next if you again insinuate or imply that I am a bigot.

[EstimatedProphet]

194. That's good, because I don't see any point to this either

You don't even bother to refute the points being made. You just pretend they aren't there, so that your argument doesn't have to change.

And for the record, I never once said you were a bigot, or even made a statement implying it. I simply pointed out that you claim to have refuted the points made by gomblimonger by saying "I refute your points". That's not valid.

[Lib Grrrrl]

196. Nor Is It Valid

for whats his face to drag a red herring across the issue, by throwing a charge of bigotry at me...so that he does not have to address my REAL issues.

[EstimatedProphet]

198. Yet I still didn't call you a bigot

And you're mad at him, so I am guilty as far as you are concerned.

[Lib Grrrrl]

203. ???

How do you figure? I haven't placed you on ignore yet...which I said I would do if you said or implied I was a bigot.

You're still not on my ignore. He is. What does that say?

[TorchTheWitch]

222. Dammit, I am so fucking SICK of this argument

illegals picking tomatoes and strawberries for shit wages

It is so damn condescending to illegals to say crap like this as if picking fucking fruits and veggies is all they're capable of. Illegals have been and are doing SKILLED jobs for shit wages. Construction, roofing, masonry, landscaping, tree cutters, paving and other road work... the list goes on and on. If they have good English speaking skills, they're clerks, secretaries, telemarketers, receptionists, bookkeepers, data entry... any WHITE COLLAR job you can think of that doesn't require special licensing or certification.

And it always seems it's the ones that are quick to point and call "racism" to those opposed to illegals when it's so incredibly racist to use this damn "onion plucker" language as if illegals are such bumbling morons they can't accomplish anything more than binking a berry off a vine.

[Goblinmonger]

119. You are on the side of people...

just not THEM.

I'm sorry you lost your job as migrant worker.

[Lib Grrrrl]

124. Wrong Again

why will you insist on twisting my words to suit your agenda? Your agenda, obviously, is to make anyone opposed to the idea of a guest worker program to be some sort of bigot and freeper troll, and horrible human being, etc. etc.

Why will you not accept that there are other reasons to oppose this, instead of sheer bigotry?

The fact is, and I state, once again, for the record...I'd like to see everyone do well...JUST NOT AT MY EXPENSE!

If it is going to HURT me, then I am not for it. Too bad. i'm sure you would feel the same way if the idea would hurt you, economically. sorry, but I don't treasure the idea of policy that is designed to pauperize me.

I look out after my own interests first and foremost...as, i'm sure, most everyone else does, whether or not they will admit to it.

The fact is...I see no way in which such a program does anything other than hurt me economically.

Again, I contend that YOU have a nice, safe, steady, secure, well-paying job and will not be negatively impacted by this idea...and so you, from your self-appointed pedestal of "holier-than-thou" point the finger at me for expressing my legitimate fears that such a program will harm me economically.

Let me ask you to be honest - if this idea was going to hurt YOU economically, would you still support it? I sincerely doubt it.

Try being long-term unemployed. when you are in my boat, you quite frankly want as little competition as possible for jobs. And that is what I want. Less competition for jobs. That makes the wage I can demand higher than if there is more competition for fewer jobs.

It's simple economics, and nothing more.

[Goblinmonger]

127. For someone

8 whole days into the DU experience, you wave the rule finger pretty mightily.

Do you know what? I do have a good job. Just bought a new house and a new car. Is my job secure? No. Why? Because I am a teacher and there are always fuckjob Republicans out there looking to cut education. Have I always been comfortable? No. Why? How about the three years that my wife was in law school and I was in grad school? When the week's groceries depended on whether there really was a $5 bill in one of our pants pockets and we could splurge on something other than ramen. When finding $2 in change in the couch meant that we actually got to go to a movie at the cheap theatre that month. Or how about the 2 years before that when my wife and I both taught at a Catholic high school and raked in a whopping $18,000 between the two of us and got to work 70+ hours a week for that priviledge. Don't tell me that I don't understand. I tried to tell you that earlier, but you must have hit the alert button.

Look, you are clearly spouting bigotry. I defined it for you and gave three solid examples. You have yet to respond. How about if you explain why those things aren't rather than repeating the same tired lines over and over again (hint: When people are sick of you after less than 50 posts, you aren't off to a good start. You may want to lurk a little bit.) At least three people have asked for an explantion of how an unskilled illegal immigrant took your job that needed 15+ years of business experience. Last I heard, it wasn't the professionals in Mexico that were risking their lives crossing the border. Please, explain how the immigrants took your job.

Until you explain those things, go spout your bigotry somewhere else.

[GirlinContempt]

126. Wait

Illegal immigrants are to blame for you losing your job, your professional 'need experience' job? :crazy:

If you think you aren't to blame, maybe you need to look at the COMPANIES that engage in this behaviour, not the people who're trying to feed and clothe themselves and their families.

[Lib Grrrrl]

130. I did Not Say That

Now you are making me angry, because you are putting words into my mouth that I did not say.

I never said any illegal immigrant caused me to lose my job. what I DID say, is that I fear that this "guest worker" idea will cause it to become more difficult for me to obtain a job...or to demand the type of salary I am accustomed to.

As I said before, the currently illegal immigrants take the "shit jobs" for one reason only: they are the only jobs they CAN take, because of their illegal status.

Once they become legal, do you honestly believe they will continue to be content to take only the "shit jobs?" do you really think they will not try to improve themselves?

do you truly believe that these people have no skills beyond the skills required to be exploited by unscrupulous employers with only shit jobs to offer?

And once they become able to apply for and accept the kinds of jobs I might be interested in, they will likely demand lower wages than I am accustomed to receiving. They are willing to accept less. I fear that this would cause my ability to demand a fair wage to be diminished.

After all, if someone of equal, or near-equal skills...is willing to do the job for less money - and you are a business...which person will you hire? The one who demands less salary, of course!

If you honestly believe that once these people become legal that they will be satisfied to remain in the same shit jobs they are now forced into...and if you believe they have no skills beyond what is required for the shit jobs they now hold, then you are the bigot, and not me.

I happen to believe a great many of them possess skills they are not able to use here, because the jobs are currently not open to them, due to their illegal status.

I would like everyone to do well...but not at my expense. and that makes me a bigot, how?

It doesn't.

But your apparent idea that these people do not possess the skills or the ambition, or the desire...to fill other than the shit jobs...well,l that seems a little closer to bigotry to me. Because I believe these people DO have the skills, and the ambition, to do better for themselves.

The problem is...not being accustomed to our wage standards, they will demand far less than the native-born American is accustomed to receiving for the same work...and the result will be a downward pressure on wages.

After all, these people have already been working shit jobs for below minimum wage. Now, what happens when these same people are offered three times as much as they made, doing the shit jobs...doing a job I am trained to do? they will think it's terrific - whereas I know that 3 times what those people made before is still below entry-level standard in my industry.

I believe they will demand less, because they are not accustomed to the sort of lifestyle that we are. And that will cause me to have to demand less...or not get a job.

It isn't bigotry, it is merely the fact that I believe this will hurt my ability to demand a reasonable wage.

Because, apparently unlike you...I believe these workers WILL attempt to better themselves...and will move into better jobs. They will not stay with the crap jobs they do now. They, I believe, have the skills, the ability, and the ambition...to better themselves, and this could have a negative impact on my economic well-being.

I believe them to be better than the jobs they are currently forced into by their illegal status. you, apparently believe them to be only skilled enough to continue at the shit jobs they now hold. so which one of us is the bigot?

[GirlinContempt]

132. Yeah, now you're putting words into my mouth

Good job. You're fucked.

"I have to blame someone!! Because it isn't my fault! would you like to name another candidate?"

[Goblinmonger]

138. Your pants are on fire

Right above, you claim this:
"I never said any illegal immigrant caused me to lose my job."

Yet in message 31, you say this:
"And I know you will hate me for this...but damn it...I was born here. I'm a citizen! and if there is not enough to go around, then it damn well ought to be ME FIRST.

I'm over a year unemployed now, so cut me a break, okay? i'm sick and tired of everyone else GETTING...while I keep GETTING SCREWED."

Hmmmmmm, which is it. You might want to read Mark Twain. Something about always telling the truth so you don't have to remember the lies.

You are probably a very nice person. My guess is that you are pissed off about this issue and said some stuff that you didn't REALLY mean and didn't realize that people would see bigotry in it (and it is there). The better tactic for someone new like you would be to just suck it up, realize you said some stuff you didn't mean, and let it go. This twisting of your position after you realize the problem is not going to help. People here on DU are not that stupid.

[Lib Grrrrl]

141. Yes. I Said That

And I was referring to HEALTH CARE.

there is not enough to go around that everyone can have it free. If there is a limited amount of resources, well, then, I believe...as a citizen of this country, MY NEEDS should be addressed first. After all, they came here...not the other way around.

I'd expect them to prioritize their own natives if I came to thier country.

No different.

Again, I am not going to tolerate charges of bigotry being thrown at me. The fact is, I am scared shitless about my ability to earn a decent living for myself, and I, right now, do not want any more obstacles in my way than already exist, okay?

Does that make me a bad person? does that make me evil? Does that make me a freeper?

Or does it make me human? That I do not want any more obstacles thrown in my way than already are there?

Look, I have said before, and I will say again...if the economy were healthy enough to absorb these additional workers, I'd have no problem. But it isn't. And you have to know that...once these workers obtain legal status...many of them are not going to be satisfied to keep working the crap jobs they have now.

they are going to move into jobs I might wish to take...like data entry and administrative jobs. And they will demand lower wages than I would.

Which will cause there to be either fewer opportunities for me out there...or cause me to not be able to demand a wage that I am accustomed to.

I am merely concerned for my own economic welfare here. what do I have to say to make you understand that?

It is not bigotry...it is merely me looking after my own economic welfare, first and foremost - and me not wanting others to do well AT MY EXPENSE.

If they can do well for themselves, without hurting ME...I'm all for it. But if it hurts me, then I have to be against it.

who in their right mind supports policy that will pauperize them?

Hell, even a lot of liberal (like me) are opposed to this "guest worker" idea. I suppose that you think everyone who is opposed is a bigot? that we don't have good REASON to be opposed? That our fears are entirely unjustified?

[Goblinmonger]

149. You weren't referring to health care

When someone called you on it, you then went into the rant about "I need to blame somebody because it isn't my fault." :nopity:

Then you continued to talk about "THEM" and "THEY" and "Immigrants" and "I don't dislike immigrants I just don't want them coming here and taking my job." All of which fit nicely into the definition of bigot that I gave you. You have never denied that. You have tried to spin it, but I don't buy Bush's bullshit when he does it and I ain't buying yours.

And as I've said before, I feel for you. I've been where you are. BUT you clearly state that YOU QUIT YOUR JOB. YOU admit that you have options but YOU DON'T WANT TO TAKE THEM. They are too scary for you. :nopity: Unlike you, when I was in the same position, I worked 3 shit jobs to make ends meet until I found something better. You might want to try that. It actually feels good.

[Bridget Burke]

164. "Skills, ability & ambition" are worth emulating.

What are you doing RIGHT NOW to apply for "the kinds of jobs I might be interested in"? Are you really worth those wages that "I am accustomed to receiving"?

If I were you, I would determine how much I needed to move out of Ma's house. Then find a job that pays enough, whether or not it's the salary you got at our last job. Whether or not it's the most fascinating job in the world. (Are there really NO jobs available where you live now?)

I doubt those evil folks are competing with you right now. But they will be. With skills & attitude. And they will have no need to accept lower wages.

[Lib Grrrrl]

170. Well, Given As You Do Not Know The Economic Landscape

where I live...I suggest you research it some before opening your big mouth.

Give you a hint...I live in a seriously rural area. Give ya another hint...the letter to Auntie Pinko today was written by me...and I gave my location.

Now, do a little homework, and you tell ME what the job prospects up here are - I'll save you the trouble, they are jack-shit.

[Bridget Burke]

176. Have you always lived in your rural area?

Or did you move there after you quit your last job?

Lots of people move to improve their prospects.

[Lib Grrrrl]

192. No

Lots of people also move because they have no choice.

My choice was to continue to live in Austin, Texas...in a cardboard box - or, go back to rural Pennsylvania to live with my mother.

I decided I'd rather not live in a cardboard box.

As it is now, I am disabled, suffering from chronic acute depression, brought on by the lack of work. I am seeing a therapist and am on anti-depressants. Meanwhile, I'm working part-time as a mystery shopper, while taking an online course in Medical Transcription, trying to better myself.

Now will you lay off? For Christ's sake, I'm not a bigot! It's just this: I have endured a long, hard road to recovery, and I am, by no means, yet recovered...and I just don't want anything making it harder than it already is. Now I'm a really horrible person for not wanting more obstacles...aren't I? I'm just a huge ogre, an evil Grendel...aren't I?

[Bridget Burke]

199. You need to concentrate your energies on your own recovery.

Instead of worrying about phantom competition in the future. I can understand that you have severe problems. But you can't blame your current situation on people who will NOT be after your theoretical job at some point yet to come.

Next time you have a job you don't like, please find another one before quitting. Especially if you have a narrow margin--this from someone who's lived on quite narrow margins.

[Telly Savalas]

150. The United States has the highest per capita GDP in the world.

There is enough to go around. But so long as we fixate on a purely market-based distribution of wealth people will get screwed. That's the fault of right-wingers in Washington, DC, not people from other countries.

[LSK]

36. K & R

We should learn from Europe who is opening its borders.

[ThomCat]

40. Agreed.

Nice rant. Thank you. :)

[El Fuego]

48. Who do you think is going to pay for this free health care?

I doubt illegal aliens are denied medical treatment. But who do you think pays for it? We all do. The costs are passed on to the rest of us in form of higher insurance premiums.

[Bridget Burke]

165. We pay for the health care of US born uninsured, too.

And we pay for the health care of Congress & high government officials.

What if we poured out onto the streets to demand affordable health care for all? No--it's easier to blame the powerless.

[foreverdem]

204. How do you figure that?

We pay for the health care of US born uninsured, too



One of my friends is still paying off the $15,000 it cost her for needed surgery she had 4 years ago and my uninsured tenant(a legal immigrant) is still paying off his chemo treatment from 2 years ago. I'm sure both of them would love to know that the we are picking up the tab for their medical treatment and they no longer need to pay.

[Bridget Burke]

208. Here's the story in Texas...

The Uninsured: A Hidden Burden on Texas Employers and Communities
April 2005

Texans living in urban areas are less likely than the average U.S. citizen to have health insurance. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, almost one in six Americans is uninsured; in Texas, the ratio is one in four. While there is substantial variation among Texas cities, every major city has an uninsured rate higher than the national average.

The U.S. Census March 2004 survey reports that an average of about 5.4 million Texans, or 24.6 percent of the state’s population, were uninsured.<1> Based on a Comptroller analysis of Census data, Laredo, Brownsville and El Paso had the highest rates of uninsured—one in three residents of these cities lacked health insurance. Houston’s uninsured rate was almost 28 percent.<2> Austin has the lowest ratio of uninsured for this period, at 18 percent.

Census data are used in this report because they constitute the most common measure of the uninsured and the only source that provides data based on actual local observations. These data are discussed in the appendix. The data on Texas MSAs is an average of the three most recent census surveys.

The sheer number of uninsured Texans makes healthcare less affordable for Texas employers and individuals. Much of the cost of providing health care for the uninsured ultimately is transferred to those who have health insurance through higher health insurance premium costs—and to Texas taxpayers who pay for uncompensated care in public hospitals and other programs.

www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/uninsured05/

Immigrants are among the uninsured, but are NOT the majority. And not all the free care is handled through emergency rooms. Even our major hospitals offer care for the indigent. Not enough to care for everyone, of course.

[foreverdem]

209. Oh, okay, thanks for the link!

I'm up north, I didn't know that's how it worked in Texas.

[Peace Patriot]

51. It's a classic fascist tactic to pit one group of oppressed people against

another. And the idea, here, I think, is to destroy labor protections and fairness--and to squeeze everybody but the super-rich--in both countries.

I'm way left on the immigration issue. I think most Mexicans have a lot more right to be here than I or my white-skinned brethren and sisteren do. Our forebears came and stole the country right away from them, and even those who came later, themselves as immigrants, capitalized on the that original theft.

And I'm seeing the whole thing--this multicultural society (quite a marvel, I think)--and the porous border with Mexico, as an organism of people and communities. I don't see it the way bureaucrats and flag-waving chauvinists see it. And I think that there really IS something to Mexican family values--sense of family and community responsibility and connectedness to each other, to nature and to the spiritual forces of the universe--that many of us have lost, and need to recover. THAT contribution to U.S. culture is of higher value to me than any weighings of the financial balance sheet (which, if done honestly, always favors the host government of immigrants, legal and illegal).

However, I want to talk about nationhood in a different context--that relates back to this context in roundabout but very important way. About 40 years ago, I read a 3-part article in the New Yorker about corporate plans to destroy national governments, here and elsewhere--to weaken them, to erode their powers to regulate business and to tax business and the rich for the common good, and ultimately to replace the state by corporate rule. I can't remember who wrote it. But it sure was prescient!

Some associate "nationalism" with war, and also with excluding other people on bigoted grounds. That is certainly how the nation states evolved, out of the original idea of a monarchy--and it was certainly a component of Hitler's rise (although not limited to that situation as to war). And there are also economic aspects to it--a country protecting its own interests, and, theoretically, the interests of its own people, as to trade policies, business regulation, resources, travel, etc. These latter have been one of the main focuses of the Corporate Rulers, some of whom are US-based, and all of whom are now global corporate predators, roaming the world like pirates, looking for weakly protected resources and cheap labor, and for governments that are easily bullied and corrupted.

So, while nationalism has some militaristic components--that can be somewhat benign or horrible, depending on people and circumstances--the nation-state is STILL the only entity we have by which we can protect ourselves from rampant predation by essentially stateless entities with enormous riches and power.

The US is rather unique among nation states, because it is so big, and so multicultural. "A nation of immigrants" (that is very unique, in modern history). Most other nations are held together in part by their biological and cultural similarity--they are smaller; they have more homogeneous populations. The US does not have that glue; it has the rule of law, the Constitution, a tradition of freedom and tolerance, and, to some extent, the English language--and perhaps also its riches, its great natural resources--to hold this vast country together in the absence of any single indigenous culture. We have the American culture that is promulgated by the movies, and by corporate TV, but not everyone belongs to it. We have lots and lots of subcultures. This needs to be taken into consideration, when the previous immigrants--all of us--start dissing the newest immigrants, whoever they may be. The same thing was done to the Irish--and with every other large immigration to this country--as is being done to the Mexicans. "We don't want that riffraff here!" It's almost laughable--if it weren't so sad. But the Mexicans are unique in that they are the one group that has a right to be here, but for the artificial boundaries of the nation state, created very recently here, in the Western Hemisphere (compared, say, to the borders of India, or China, or France or Italy). To the extent that Mexicans or other Latin Americans carry indigenous blood, this had been THEIR land for over 10,000 years!

This latter truth may be why Latin American immigrants are so threatening to some. The kind of white Americans who are never comfortable in their own skins, and who flag-wave and rail about the immigration of the brown, may feel more than a bit insecure, in this mostly brown hemisphere, and mostly brown world. They are to be pitied, in a way--and also fought. What idiocy! The Latin Americans are the most democratic people in the world right now. THEY are the future. And they are showing US the way out of our difficulties here, with our Corporate Rulers.

In Bolivia, for instance, where they just elected their first indigenous Indian as president, Evo Morales--a socialist and ally of Hugo Chavez and of the many other new leftist leaders in South America--they started by throwing Bechtel out their country, for privatizing the water and then jacking up the prices to the poor. Full scale, organized, grass roots revolt. Goodbye, Bechtel! Then they elected Evo--who campaigned with a wreath of coca leaves around this neck (sacred plant in the Andes).

Grass roots movements like that have been spurred by electoral reform--a long term project of the OAS and other election groups--as well as by community-based organization over a long period of time. Democracy, in other words, is happening in South America.

The US has been taken over and exploited by the very rich, and by global corporate predators, who have been using the power of the US for their own ends, to further enrich themselves. Prior to the last few decades, that purpose of the rich has been tempered by the purposes of the poor, in our democratic country with its "balance of powers." When the oligarchs got out of control, the labor movement fought back and eventually won good labor laws, and decent wages, creating a powerful middle class. All that is under serious assault here, and has been since Reagan. The global predators have now found it convenient to outsource huge numbers of jobs to places like Mexico, the Marianas, Cambodia and wherever they can find NATIONAL governments that can't or won't protect their own people, or who permit egregious exploitation of imported workers.

So, you see the dilemma. We NEED a strong national government to protect us--that is, a binding union of people, land and government--as long as there are global corporate predators in the world. Right now, in the U.S., these predators are eating their own--us. But, theoretically, anyway, we could throw them off. We could de-charter them (if they are chartered here in the states). We could dismantle them, and seize their assets for the common good--and get them off of EVERYONE's backs. We could ban them from doing business here. We could tell Halliburton, and Bechtel, and the Carlyle Group, and Chevron, and Chase Bank to go take a flying leap. That's the power of the sovereignty of the people--banded together as a nation.

OR, we need some new ENTITY. I don't know what it would be. But there is value to a strong national government--is all I'm saying--as long as there is agreement between people and government about what government is FOR. And democracy is certainly the best--and may be the only--way of reaching that agreement. And to have a strong national government, you have to have NATIONALISM: a belief in the components of the nation, its people, its laws, its ideas, its character. It's not at all a bad thing, necessarily, to see yourself as part of a larger community or nation. You don't necessarily have to despise others as less than you, in order to identify what YOU are a part of, what YOU believe in, and what YOU support and would fight for.

It's only when such belief and support is exploited and misused--generally, when the will of the people has been thwarted, and when demagogues take control--that nationalism is bad, in and of itself.

Take Peru, Bolivia, Venezuela, and Argentina, for instance--and, indeed, almost any So. American country you could name right now. "Nationalism," to this new leftist revolution that is sweeping South America (also in Brazil, Chile, and Uruguay), means SELF-DETERMINATION and INDEPENDENCE from the US. It means being proud of being Bolivians or Venezuelans. But it does NOT mean hatred of your neighbors; on the contrary, these countries are cooperating with each other.

And none of this (the need to be a nation) means that we can't create a special arrangement with Mexico, because of the unique circumstances of our history. But the arrangement would have to be premised on BOTH our governments curtailing global corporate predators, and forbidding the exploitation of labor. Both would have to agree and cooperate on social services. And perhaps, with a new gov't in Mexico--led by the leftist mayor of Mexico City (who is ahead in the presidential polls)--and a new gov't here (after we reform our election system, and throw the Bushite electronic voting corporations out), that could be achieved.

It's a time for new thinking--not for old protectionist patterns and war patterns. But we need to be careful of aiding the Corporate Rulers by opposing the good elements of nationalism and strong government. If the nation that we wave the flag for takes care of its own people, truly advocates for peace and justice, defends the defenseless, and extends the hand of cooperation to others, it's a good nation and it's okay to be proud of belonging to it and supporting it. And that kind of a nation--a good nation--may be the best we can do, for the moment, as to human organization.

"The time of the people has come." --Evo Morales

[Horse with no Name]

67. This deserves it's own post.

Very nice prose.

[RagingInMiami]

73. Loved it

"The Latin Americans are the most democratic people in the world right now. THEY are the future. And they are showing US the way out of our difficulties here, with our Corporate Rulers."

[LeftHander]

88. Corporatism sucks...

Maybe the post title should be that.

I agree there is a portion of nationalism that is needed....but would that be more patriotism?

Any grass roots change for the better is going to extremely difficult in this nation as long as the keys to government are held by the wealthy.

Without meaningful campaign finance reform and election reform here in the U.S. the world is at the mercy of multi-national corporations.

[nonconformist]

53. I too agree on principle... but here's the hair in that salad

It's not wrong to expect the U.S. government to put the interests and welfare of American citizens first. Above corporations, above anything. It's supposed to be their JOB - which of course they're failing miserably at. But it's not wrong to expect that.

As well, there's nothing wrong with expecting - hell, DEMANDING - a reasonable standard of living for all Americans. That is the mentality that *causes* people to rise up and demand fairness and change. The entire middle class movement that built America into what it is today was based on the principle that we deserved to be treated humanely and paid fairly for our work.

But I do agree with you about health care - NOBODY should be denied the basics of health care. Nobody.

[Balbus]

55. So we should open up the doors to our jails?

Murderers and child-molesters and rapists and arsonists are people too. Should they have the same rights as the rest of us?

[LostinVA]

59. Apples and oranges, and you know it

Violent, sociopathic criminals are not the same as immigrant (legal or not) workers. Totally ridiculous.

[Bridget Burke]

167. Maybe he identifies with the "Murderers and child-molesters and rapists...

...and arsonists."

He's just trying to get equal treatment for HIS group.

[SoCalDem]

56. Rove's plan is working perfectly

In times of plenty, the whole immigrant issue is of little consequence, but human nature being what it is, there's always trouble just under the surface...waiting to bubble up.

Rove and his pals KNOW this.

People everywhere want their families to flourish, and if others can at the same time, well great...BUT when the going gets tough, most people will still want their own families to do well, even if it means that others' will not.

Limited resources, or the appearance of limited resources, triggers that greedy, uncompromising part of our brains, and reason goes on haitus.

The sad thing is that none of the horrors we are living through even HAD to happen. We should have had national health care DECADES ago.. There WOULD have been a national ID card for us all issued back then, and by now we would have all become accustomed to it, like millions of Canadians & Europeans have.

Part of ANY international trade agreement and the attendant globalization SHOULD have been a worldwide "fair wage" agreement. Think of how many companies might have decided to NOT reloctae, if they had to pay an untrained overseas workforce wages close to what they paid here? Why move if you can keep the workers you already have for little more than you would have to pay in a foreign country?

To understand what's happening, just look to animal behavior.. When there's plenty of food and shelter, herds/packs/whatever all get along, BUT when habitat shrinks and resources get slimmer, eventually some will be forced out of the group or killed by the stronger ones..

We have been tricked into survival mode by a pack of evil, scheming politicians.

[bryant69]

57. Total crap

I don't know what rights you are talking about for illegal immigrants. One of my reasons to oppose illegal immigration is that those who come into this country are exploited - plus the ease of getting into this country illegally is a danger, both to us and to those who would use that route to better themselves.

We can talk about the need to improve legal immigration, by making it easier, less bureacratic and more meaningful, and I might very well agree with you on those points - but simply saying that people shouldn't come to this country ILLEGALLY does not mean I am opposed to their rights.

The solution to a broken system is to simply go around illegally. Rather the system should be fixed.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Goblinmonger]

62. But what do we do

with the people that are here and are in need of medical attention. The OP is stating that there are those arguing that we not treat them for medical emergencies because they are illegals. Do you support that?

What about the kids that were born here and are as much citizens as you and I. They should be booted out because we want to send their parents back home?

[bryant69]

77. We should treat them for emergencies and then send them home

Children should be with their parents - if their parents are here illegally they should be sent back home. And their kids should be sent with them.

Bryant

[Goblinmonger]

81. The kids that are/were born here

are 100% US citizens. They have EXACTLY the same protections from the constitution that you and I do. They are not one iota less of a citizen than you are. Pretty easy to just say "they should be with their parents" and then kick their ass across the border.

[bryant69]

82. What is your solution?

Put them in orphanages or fostercare? Or simply saying "Any illegal immigrent who manages to have a child on American soil gets a free get out of jail free card?"

Oh and at any rate I would be opposed to kicking their asses - that strikes me as adding insult to injury. Bad enough that their parents chose to break the law by sneaking into America, thus putting them into this lousy situation.

Bryant

[Goblinmonger]

85. Well

Saying their parents can stay here with them seems like a better alternative than forcing an American citizen to live in a foreign country.

I said "kick their asses back across the border." I was not saying you were advocating violence.

We need to re-evaluate the concept of borders. Much like Europe is doing.

[bryant69]

87. Perhaps we should reevaluate the concept of borders

I don't know that I'd end up agreeing with you, but it's a subject worth discussing. But until we do, people should live with in the law.

If you favor dismantling the idea of borders, what does it matter whether the kid lives here or in Canada? I mean if there's nothing special about living in America, who cares?

Kicking their asses sounds like violence of a sort to me, but maybe I'm looking at it wrong.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Goblinmonger]

90. Oh, come on

You have NEVER used the phrase "kick their ass out" when talking about removing someone from somewhere. OK.

Doesn't this seem to all be coming up at a really convenient time for the Republicans? I mean, these people have been here forever and NOW it is a problem? Right in the middle of Scooter Libby, the Hammer, Iraq becoming an even bigger shit hole? Seems like a diversion to me. Rove's wet dream.

I do favor dismantling borders. And, IF THAT WERE THE CASE, it wouldn't matter where they live. But we haven't done that yet. So making a US CITIZEN live in a foreign country seems a little harsh.

[bryant69]

98. It's rhetorical violence

COnsider how the tone changes if you change "kick their asses out" to "escort them out." Consciously or subconsciously you picked those words for a reason.

You might be right that this is a diversion - I don't think it's much of one - if anything it's helping Democrats by setting Republicans against the Latino community, one of the few minority communties they have made some inroads with.

Letting every body that can have a child on American soil stay here seems stupid.

Tell me, are you going to require Mexico to change their labor laws, once we remove our borders? Or are you going to remove the protections granted the American Worker by current laws?

Bryant

[Goblinmonger]

100. I will agree

that it was wording to make things look better in my favor. It was conscious. It was not advocating physical violence. If you want to have a "rhetoric is epistemic" discussion sometime, we can.

It may seem stupid, but those kids ARE american citizens. I was almost born in Canada when my mom was on vacation. That would have given me Canadian citizenship. Should we change those laws then? I think it gets pretty dicey if we do.

If we are going to "remove" our borders, it would clearly have to be something that is done in collaboration with Canda and Mexico, much like the EU. Too bad our current leader is too much of an asshat to make that happen.

[bryant69]

103. I doubt it will happen any time soon

The labor market is only one potential problem.

Well, than perhaps the best thing is give the kids dual citizenship, remove their parents from the country, and let the parents make the call (or the kids if they are over 18). Not an ideal solution.

But let me reiterate, the ideal solution is for people in other countries not to try to come here illegally. Obey the law.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[The Straight Story]

117. Maybe they should have thought of that before having kids here?

Seems they care less than we do or they would not have put themselves and their kids into that position in the first place.

Someone should take responsibility for things, and the individuals doing such actions would be a good place to start.

[Goblinmonger]

118. You might want

to check out www.freerepublic.com

Damn those hispanics for having so many kids. Damn those kids for demanding to actually have the rights that are granted them IN THE FUCKING CONSTITUTION.

Yeah, send em all back. Who gives a shit if we are deporting legal, legitimate US citizens to a foreign country.

[The Straight Story]

120. So who is responsible for their actions?

They know they are here illegally, they have kids here knowing that, do they bear zero responsibility for it at all? Or do you think they are too unintelligent to make the right decisions and cannot control themselves?

They are people, smart people, who make poor choices. They made the choice to come here and risk deportation. Their kids, if born here, are not subject to that so they are forcing the situation to be one where they move back with their children or leave them here. Why would someone choose to do this?

[Goblinmonger]

121. They choose to do it

because their life is shit where they are. Bad enough that they would rather come here and work for slave wages. And faced with that reality, far too many liberal progressives want to just ship them back home in a circle jerk of nationalism. Surely we can do better than that as a country.

[LostinVA]

106. American citizens have the right not to be deported

Whether they're an infant or 105.

[lumberjack_jeff]

70. Well said.

The people in the United States got together to set up a society that served them. That is OUR birthright, and I think it's fair. Everyone who comes here has a society back home that was established for their benefit.

There are processes in place to allow immigration. If those processes are flawed then that should be corrected, but I am not supportive of establishing a peer relationship between those that are citizens, non-citizens who are here legally and those that are here illegally. I also don't agree with the establishment of a form of second-class citizenship (guest worker) because there's only one kind of citizen and everyone else is either a visitor, a guest, or a criminal.

Illegal immigration drives down wages for the working class american, and I will not apologize for advocating that the Democratic party should represent them first.

Do I agree with cutting off medical care for illegals? No, because it's impractical. Doctors will still treat illegals regardless. If the government doesn't pay, the hospitals will just push the costs onto the rest of us.

[Goblinmonger]

83. Karl Rove's Wet Dream

All of this in-fighting is exactly what the republicans want.

Don't you realize how nationalistic you sound? Don't you realize how vital a role nationalism plays in fascism. YOUR birthright? YOUR ancestors were the founding fathers? Or, more likely, did your ancestors come here later? My ancestors came here in this century. Should I go back to the Czech Republic. My wife to Ireland? Give me a fucking break--YOUR birthright.

And if a kid is born here, even if their parents are illegals or just here on vacation, that kid is AS MUCH A US CITIZEN AS YOU ARE. What do we do with them?

[lumberjack_jeff]

92. "Karl Rove's wet dream"? I was thinking the same thing

Do you not realize that the only people that choose elected officials are citizens? Do you like belonging to the minority party?

Every citizen deserves the blessings of citizenship. Every legal immigrant deserves the courtesy of being considered a guest. Everyone else doesn't.

I don't care how nationalistic that sounds to you. I do care that the Democratic party is becoming so sensitive to the perception of inclusiveness that the concept of self-interest (even collective self-interest) has become anathema.

If you were born here, you're an american, just like me. Get used to the idea, because even if you don't want to look out for my interests, I fully intend to look out for yours.

[Goblinmonger]

94. well

I don't think I ever advocated that illegal immigrants be given the right to vote. I just supported the notion of the OP that people here--legal, citizen, guest, illegal--be given health care in the case of medical emergency. That doesn't seem to odd to me. You seem to be saying that someone comes into an emergency room with a life-threatening condition and they are illegal they should be sent back home and not given health care. THAT was the point of the OP.

I do not have a problem with the concept of rights for citizens. I DO have a problem with the type of nationalism that gives way to the thoughts above. THAT is the beginnings (or worse) of fascism.

And if an illegal alien has a child here, THAT CHILD is an american just like you and me. What do we do with them? I'll look out for you. Trust me. But don't you think all of this chaos about illegal immigrants which is dividing the democratic party seems too nicely placed in the middle of lots of problems for Bush? Don't you think the Republicans are just distracting us with a shiney object?

[lumberjack_jeff]

99. I agree with this more than you realize, but...

1) Unless the government is willing to pass a law forbidding medical providers from treating illegals with a medical emergency, refusing to pay for that treatment via medicaid just transfers the cost to citizens in a different way. In that sense the law in the OP is pointless, and yes, punitive.
2) Anyone who is born here is a citizen. I thought I said that. Children who's parents commit crimes go into foster care. Tragic? Yes. A better solution would be to prevent their parents from committing that crime.
3) Having lived through the last 25 years of Republican indignities (I'm old enough to remember that this country wasn't always like this) I'm willing to do what it takes to get them the fuck gone. One requirement is convincing voters that we represent them better.
4) This isn't a shiny object for the Republicans, it's brilliant tactics, actually. They want that cheap workforce, but they don't want to say it too loudly. Their tactic is to give amnesty (or guest worker status, or whatever) to illegals to provide that workforce, while using our public, heartfelt compassion as a wedge to divide us from the working class citizens we should be representing. ("It's all those bleeding heart liberals who passed this bill, I did what I could voters-of-my-district, but I'm sorry, the power of the liberal establishment is just too strong. Re-elect me and I'll try to get your jobs back")

We need those votes, and I'm surprised we're falling... nay, leaping, into this trap.

[Marie26]

61. Sometimes. Xenophobia always sucks. nt

[alarimer]

63. Human history is all about migration

For thousands of years people have moved from one place to another. There is nothing new under the sun here. Nothing. It will not stop; I don't care how many barriers you put up. In the short term it may cause problems but in the long term we are better for it.

The health care system is broken for a number of reasons, not the least of which are 45 million uninsured Americans, a number that gets bigger every single day, thanks to the current occupant of the White House. The system needs more help than simply excluding illegals from receiving health care. NO ONE who needs it should be denied health care. EVER. That is cruel and inhumane and I cannot believe anyone here is advocating it. Some Americans really make me sick.

[Lib Grrrrl]

69. I Agree

I am one of those 45 million uninsured Americans.

BUT, if resources are limited...and there is not enough to go around...then, damn it, hate me if you will, but I say that...as a citizen, MY NEEDS should come before those of an illegal alien. that is to say, if there are only enough resources for one of us toget the health care we both need, then I ought to be the one getting them. After all, I am here LEGALLY...I paid my taxes for years, and I believe that entitles me to priority.

That said, I am on Medicaid now, at least temporarily. But you should see how much I had to fight, and how much buraeucratic bullshit I had to go thru to get it.

[LeftHander]

169. The world is out to get you....

Here it comes.....streaming over the border.

Maybe if bomb them into submission you will get a nice check in the mail...

maybe the GOP will toss you a bone.

Selfish.

Many many people have been living hand to mouth for a sometime now in the U.S. People around the world have been doing it for generations.

So you want to round up people who came here to work. they left home. Everything they know and love because they pretty much had no hope.

YOu being one in the same boat I would of thought you would of been there helping. Working with homeless. Volunteering your "unemployed" time at local shelters, food banks, hospital, nursing home etc...


Did you? Do you? I hope so. Maybe if you got close to people who have less than you have you will appreciate all that you do have. And understand why your arguments sound selfish and shill.

Again get out and give more of yourself. Find some goodness and humanity somewhere and hold onto it. You will get ten fold back in return.

[El Fuego]

185. Why don't you come to Florida and help them NOW?

Are you so selfish that you will safely ensconce yourself in Wisconsin and ignore the needs of the illegal immigrants? And the needs of those who would dare call themselves "American citizens" who are negatively impacted by illegal immigration?

Why don't you "give of yourself" and help counsel the victims of violent crime committed by illegal immigrants.

"Give of yourself" and counsel the children of illegal immigrants to help them stay out of gangs and stop the growing violent gang culture.

"Give of yourself" and dissuade illegal immigrants from driving without a license (they kill people with motor vehicles regularly around here).

"Give of yourself" and provide a ride service for illegals so they don't drive illegally.

"Give of yourself" and sponsor illegal immigrants so they have always have medical care.

"Give of yourself" and volunteer to teach in the schools where non-English speaking students take up all the resources and prevent English speaking students from getting an education.

"Give of yourself" and volunteer to help illegals learn to speak English.

We don't have to wait for your utopian, open border future, the time is NOW.
We have problems NOW. Find some "goodness and humanity" in YOURSELF. If you're not selfish, come to South Florida and see the cancerous effects of illegal immigration up close and personal. I guarantee you will find it so alien that you will high tail it back to white bread English-speaking Wisconsin.

[LeftHander]

207. Correct, the situation is now...

See post #152...

I have some suggestions to find some sort of way of being welcoming without criminalization and punishment of people.

You must hate where you live. Sad for you, maybe instead of all the energy you put into maintaing your animosity for undocumented immigrants you should start packing and move to South Dakota....they are really welcoming there. As long as you are White and male.

That is a white bread as it gets.

My OP was intended to gather lots of emotional responses..

there have been lots of emotional response and people have real strong feelings in this matter...but I hope that we can still remember that for every young angry latino gang banger drug dealer...there are ten folds of families silently getting up everyday to go to work, send the kids to school, going to church, building new communities, opening new businesses. It is these people that matter to us all. Every ethnic group has "bad people". And luckily many times more that number are simply good, loving people.

We have a tendency to paint everyone with a broad brush. Myself included. It is our nature. Yet as the numerous posts have shown here is that there is a true division in this nation. I used to think it was political, then ideological but now I think it is personal.

People expect the "American Dream" and anything that threatens that dream is to be attacked, belittled, dehumanized and removed.

So effective is the logic of exclusion. The orginal core message of caring and compassion is what has gathered the strong responses. It is the fear that we are losing something. When in reality we are gaining so much more.

I welcome our friends to the south. I am glad they came and I want them to stay. Our towns and cities across the country were abandoned by white middle class America. We chose to build strip-malls and McMansion and hid in "Elm Grove Vista" subdivisions.

Our developers enabled the decay and destruction of our micro-economies. We went big. Well we left the door open and left everything in place. All that was needed was someone to step in and reoccupy our abandoned nieghboorhoods.

I've seen it. Right here in white bread Wisconsin. In my own town of Waukesha. Our downtown, once domintated by Penny's, Sears and a host of other small retailors was abandoned. And "bad" white people moved in. Hookers, drug dealers, porno and sleezy bars that cater to the chronic abusers and wayward homeless.

Well...the latino community came in and started opening old store fronts. Now the only grocery store left in downtown Waukesha is a lation grocery. the only clothing stores are latino...The most popular resturants are you, guessed it...Mexican.

Because of thier pioneering spirit other businesses came. Now we have a multi-cultural thriving downtown with art galleries, pubs, resturants, coffee houses and much of that development is because of the initial investments by people from across the border are they all documented...I highly doubt it. Are they part of our community....you bet. Are there some bad people too...yes there are. Not 8 years ago many of these store fronts were empty and people were afraid to go downtown.

America needs this. Micro-economic development.

So I still see people who would like to see all the "brown-skinned" people leave and take their buisnesses and language with them. But what good does that do...really?

[El Fuego]

212. Please explain your concept of "compassion"

Most people living in Mexico or Guatemala (just for example) aren’t suffering. They aren’t getting daily beatings. They don’t need our “compassion.”

They are merely poor. And there’s no dishonor in being poor. The poor are "people" too. It’s not a disease to be cured. You’re saying they need our compassion only because they live simple lives, without air conditioning, the Internet, and satellite TV. Believe it or not, it’s possible to live a fulfilling life without those things. You say we have “friends to the south,” but your denigration of these countries (which have proud heritages of their own) as merely something from which people need to escape shows that you are basically racist.

It’s very arrogant and shallow to say the American way of conspicuous consumption is the only meaningful existence, and it’s right and noble to anything you can to get here, including violating our laws. Our way of life is artificial anyway, made possible only by our oil supply.

They’re not coming here because they’re being oppressed and persecuted, they’re coming out of greed. They want more more MORE. They want to live The Life. They want The Bling. They want Tivo. They have my understanding, because we all want more, and they’re no different from me in that respect. But they don’t necessarily have my compassion.

While I respect anyone’s desire to improve their lot in life, it’s just NOT POSSIBLE for the U.S. to absorb everyone in the Third World. We don’t have the resources. If the borders were open, millions and millions of poor uneducated people would continuously stream in. Then WE will be a third world country.

It’s a fine and noble idea to want to care for every poor person in the world, but it can’t be done in reality, and it’s a dangerously naïve notion. It’s like one of those wacky cat ladies who takes in every stray out of compassion, and after she has accumulated 200 cats they just start to die and starve in their own filth.

[LeftHander]

216. Hmmmm not quite...but close...

I think we (Americans) all will live simpler lives more like the honorable poor people you speak of.

And we have to accept that inevitability. No I don't think I was saying that people need our compassion because we want them to live our conspicous consumer lifestyle. Quite the opposite.

In the bigger picture looking out 50 or more years...the image I see is one of as described. The wealth and opoortunity this world has to offer is more fairly distributed but at the same time there does need to be realistic limits to the expectations of what a comfortable lifestyle is.

For many americans right now that expectaton is that gated McMansion, three of four cars, electronics (guilty on the electronics), etc...but for many it is simply food, shelter, family, something to cook the food on and store it in. We are moving together there will always be poor and wealthy but I think that will be measured on more common grounds....sometime in the distant future.

The gross over abundance of things we have now simply won't be possible in the future.

As long as WE expect to have the highest standard of living in the world to the deteriment of the peoples of the world then we are not really very compassionate are we? I would say that that is more selfish.

No my compassion is to not leap from my car and rescue the deer before the car hits it.

But it is to recognize that taking more than one needs in this world is harmful...I like to think of compassion as more of a "loving kindness" to all. (Easy to say hard to practice being a rather emotional opinionated individual.)

what that is...I'm not sure I really know. I don't have all the answers. I do have lots of questions and I am continually trying to find answers for them.

If we get to a point where each succeeding generation is going to live greener and more peaceful than the previous then that is a wonderful place to be. It won't come in my lifetime but I think if we take up the call and teach our children and turn the world away from war, violence, greed we will be on the right track. We make small changes now. Beocme more green and try to slow uneeded exploitation of the worlds people in as you said...baby steps. Cutting military spending and handling immigration in a inclusive rather than exclusive manner would be a baby step to me.

You are probably right too. Maybe I am a racist. As I really know little of other cultures even African American, Native American and Latin American. I have not "lived" inside these cultures as a member of them, maybe you have and have your own justifications your positions.

But I do know is that we are divided from one another and both sides are leery and untrusting of each other, one is fearful and the other envious. that is not a good relationship to have in any community.

A big challenge I have in my life is to reach out in some way and come to know people better. All people if I can. I also know if something appears to be unfair and callous it is. And the recent immigration legislation from congress is certainly that. And so to are many of the comments about "illegals" made by many on this board.

Unfortunatly for our expectations as a nation...we will be absobing most of the third world maybe not physiclally but certainly economically (we already have almost)...we will all become more equal. Because the people of the world who are exploited and made to suffer while we reap the benefits of thier labor and resources will rise up and stop it.

Indirectly the way they are doing it is by flooding over the border...eventually we will reach a leveling effect. Maybe in two or three generations. Or we will kill millions upon millions of people to preserve our precious standard of living for another generation or two. Our own consumer culture will ultimately force us all to live with less. Because we will simply have consumed it all. So all the more reason to start cutting back now....it is going to happen.

I am willing make sacrficies in the way I live and to teach my children that they should too. Are you?

Is it really that much to ask of people to not want war, discrimination to maintain our bloated lifestyles?

I think that many fail to recoginze or acknowlege the good that immigrants have brought to the U.S. in recent years. It is so easy to see only the crime and violence. I want to see more of the good things by getting to know my neighbors. (meaning the people in my community)

I hope you have a wonderful holiday weekend...surrounded with family and friends.

[adwon]

75. Curious

"I can't imagine any Democrat taking on positions that deny people rights."

If illegals are not subject to the same duties as citizens, then they simply have no claim to those rights. It sounds harsh, but it really is necessary for balance. To borrow from Dean Acheson, "duties older than and as fundamental as rights."

[LeftHander]

152. "illegals" not People....A solution?

The term "illegals" is being tossed around the immigration issue pretty easily.

We seem to be able to toss aside the fact that people and families are part of this equation and side with the "legal" definition of people who have crossed our border doing nothing more than what human beings are programmed to do....survive and protect thier families.

The dehumanization of people first begins with a term that seperates a population from the mainstream.

"Illegals" is that term. We need to stop the dehumanization of people.

Here is my first stab and devising a solution to our immgration conundrum.

1. Open Borders - Registration at entry with sponsorship, signed lease, open bank account and balance that enables to live for 6 months. No drugs or weapons obviously.

2. No sponsorship or insufficient means of self support, referrals to organizations that help migrants get to that point. But they can still enter if they choose and are reffered to local organizations that are set up to recieve them if they so choose.

3. Undocumented migrants that are employed, those businesses are asked to register the worker and distribute identification and resource information. Again on a voluntary basis. If a business benefits from migrant labor then it is to there benefit to offer entry into the system for migrants.

4. Undocumented homeless migrants are treated as such. they are referred to an aid organization, registered and entered into the system. The "system" is a referall program that connects people with agencies and organizations to help people find work, education, healthcare, housing either in the U.S. or back in native country...they are offered help and options. But none mandatory and can fend for themselves if they so choose. But I am talking about people who would be starving, homeless or sick.

5. Basically if a undocumented migrant seeks help, help is available not punishment. Temporary shelter and food can be provided. But only for people who have already made there way here and are seeking help. Entry into the system can be made at any point with not punishment only help.

6. No undocumented immigrant is denied any service. They simply enter the system at that point.

7. U.S. Citizenship is possible once the migrant is established.

The underlying piece is that it must be structured to actually work and be helpful so that migrants will want to use the system. And are always given the choice to not do so as long as they are registered and are able to take care of themselves. When they fail to do so they are not puniched but given the tools and resources to help them get back on the track to find work and housing. they can obviously choose to not do so.

The systems is to be compassion and reward based not punishment based. Always the underlying theme is not one of punishment but of actually helping people find there way to personal security. Personal Security being the basic needs for survial. Food, shelter first, then education and useful work.

It would be expensive. Yes. We might have to forego plans for more pre-emptive wars and cancel the next air superiority fighter jet contracts, or death rods from space, bunker busters.

What is key is that we are people. We can choose to help one another or punish and kill one another. Somebody has to start somewhere and I choose helping over punishment and killing.

In the short term there will be problems. But what a great problem to have. How to enable people to live better lives without using bombs but simply opening your arms and saying...

"It's okay, I understand and I want to help you find what your looking for, if you want me to help, I would be glad to do so."

That is the key part. Criminalization, involuntary detention, racsim, bigotry, selfishness and hate are not part of equation and if any of those are brought into the system it will not work and again...entry into the system can be done at any point. That is the big difference between this and our current immigration policy which create a single point of entry.

I know many will say...this is toothless and no one will follow any of the procedures because there is no punishment. Well....then I guess you won't be the one helping then.

[rucky]

76. My sentiments, down to the very last f-word!

Lately I've been thinking I missed a left turn somewhere and ended up on the Free Republic.

[genie_weenie]

80. Time to remove the sickness of the Earth which is

Nation-States. And governments.

Woo-Hoo, Anarchy!

[chicofaraby]

89. K&R

[IChing]

96. Nationalism is used by the powers that really rule to :

Manipulate opinion for their own desires.

.".the nation-state as a fundamental unit of man's organized life has ceased to be the principal creative force: International banks and multinational corporations are acting and planning in terms that are far in advance of the political concepts of the nation-state."

1971, Zbigniew Brzezinski

I saw this in the 73 Yom Kippur war when oil companies created a OIL crisis and we got stuck at the pump.
I discussed this with my Political Scientist Professor at that time in which he reminded me of examples of
US businesses that supported the NAZIs (Prescott Bush IE).

Read this post to understand how things really are: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2564356

[rman]

101. The powers that really rule manipulate everything to their advantage;

including religion, education, nationalism, and the definition of certain words. But that does not mean that all those things are bad things in principal.
I recall clearly calls on DU not to long ago for nationalization of US oil/petrol industry as a means to prevent price gouging.

Re the 70's oil crisis, although that to was manipulated and many forces played a role in it, the root cause was unavoidable: the production peak of oil fields on US soil (mainly Texas).

[rman]

97. "deny healthcare to undocumented aliens" = corporatism, not nationalism

Nationalism is about using the wealth of the nation (resources, labor etc) to the benefit of The People, as opposed to the benefit of corporations and the wealthy minority that is in power.

The US could very well be "nationalized" and still care about people who are not US citizens. If we'd set policies according to such an agenda, NAFTA would look completely different than how it is now, and Mexicans would have at least far less reason migrate to the US, illegally or otherwise.

[KyuzoGator]

104. People don't know the difference between patriotism and nationalism.

Nationalism is loving your country. Patriotism is loving your country's ideals.

[ronnie624]

108. Hear! Hear!

Well said. There are very serious problems that transcend national borders that all of humanity must confront in the coming years. What a shame so many will not allow us to come together to solve these dilemmas. Drawing borders and waving flags seems to be of far greater importance. This can only be dealt with through education and thus a complete global revolution of our system of values. This is a tall order because the machine against which we must struggle is firmly entrenched and will destroy us all before willingly giving up any of its power. But attitudes must change if our species expects to survive beyond this century.

The corporatists who rule over our lives do not divide the world with borders. They are far more concerned with profits, power and future markets but their propaganda keeps the rest of us divided thus are we easier to control.

[LeftHander]

115. well said! - nt

[ronnie624]

116. Thank you for the compliment.

I believe the working class throughout the world are our allies in our struggle against those who would enslave us all in their drive to consolidate all of the world's wealth, resources and political power into the hands of a few. The multi-national corporatists are our true enemies. It is they who seek to scarf up the remaining resources instead of trying to create a system of equitable distribution as a part of preparing for the future as they are obligated to do.

Nationalism is a useless emotion that serves no one but the corporatists and fascists as they attempt to divide and distract us with propaganda designed to appeal to a deeply ingrained sense of tribalism. Perhaps we will be able to successfully resist these tendencies before it is too late but time is most certainly of the essence.

[Zynx]

125. Nationalism killed more people in the 19th and 20th centuries than

almost all other ideologies put together in the history of the world. I bet, depending on how you count it, you could top over 150 million.

It goes hand in hand with the racism that we are seeing even in our own party today.

[YouthInAsia]

131. So who's gonna pay the $100,000 hospital bills they cant pay?

You? Me? Why should I have to pay for people who broke the law by coming into this country illegally? Its not fair to the american people. The hospitals on the border are going BROKE from having to treat all these illegals.

[GirlinContempt]

135. Yeah. God damn that crap.

They should just crawl back into the sewers and die.

[YouthInAsia]

136. dont remember saying that.

[GirlinContempt]

137. You didn't.

I was being sensational and adding emotion to convey my sarcasm more fully.

[YouthInAsia]

139. oh, gotcha!

[Lars39]

142. Federal distribution of funds is the problem.

Illegal immigrants pay more in taxes than in what they receive in services.

[ronnie624]

145. The hospitals on the border are going broke?

I can,t help but question the veracity of such a claim. Perhaps you could provide a link to support this contention.

As for your question regarding who should pay for health care; of course you and I should pay. There is no excuse for not having nationalized health care in this country.

[YouthInAsia]

146. I have no prob paying for the healthcare for

AMerican citizens, but why should I be foreced to foot the bill for illegal aliens?

A New York Times article earlier this week tells the story.

"The American Hospital Association estimated that in 2000, the 24 southernmost counties from Texas to California accrued $832 million in unpaid medical care, a quarter of which was directly attributable to illegal immigrants," the Times reports. "Now, the financial pressures are spreading north into larger cities, pushing the overall unpaid bills well into the billions of dollars and straining a health care system already stretched thin by rising numbers of uninsured citizens, inadequate Medicaid payments, ballooning federal and state deficits and federal laws that allow United States border agents to wave through anyone who claims to need emergency care."

<“Burden Grows For Southwest Hospitals,” By Michael Janofsky, New York Times, April 14, 2003>

and here's another article from Mother Jones magazine

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2000/06/border_hospitals.html

[Bridget Burke]

171. Yeah, the Texas Medical Center (Houston) is going broke!

All those shiny new buildings & construction cranes are only mirages.

You are already paying far too much for health care--your own & all the uninsured. The HMO's & Insurance Companies are really glad you are NOT blaming them.

[Ron Mexico]

179. Pick one of these

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-13,GGLD:en&q=hospitals+closed+illegals

I'm not going to point to one in particular; I understand that some sources (WND, for instance) are heavily slanted towards the right, but I don't know about others - at any rate, not all of them can be wrong.

[Ioo]

157. I could not disagree more with a single post.

And we wonder why rural America things Dems are a bunch of nuts...

If you want to be a one world - happy people person, go for it, I will not come along for the ride.

Right now, we are ruled by the far right, scary! Ruled by the far left, just as scary.

[LeftHander]

163. Ruled by the wishy washy middle....scarier...

Becasue they will sell out to bigots, racists, corporatists, liars and cheats.

A little cool cheap technology, a little tax cut here and little rebate there...in return you get war, discrimination, regressive social policy....

Nice ride you are on.

[Bridget Burke]

172. Well, this Red State Democrat waves lots of flags....

All that money being wasted on illegal wars & crony deals would pay for a lot of health care. And education. And fixing the infrastructure. But the powers that be prefer we blame the "illegals."

Where are all these xenophobes coming from?

[Ron Mexico]

175. I wonder what those racist, xenophobic Mexicans would think of your post.

You're not even entitled to EMERGENCY health care down there if you get hurt. Here, our of 12-15 million illegals we have a large number of them with nothing emergently wrong, using the emergency room as primary care, sticking taxpayers with the bill and closing down a bunch of hospitals in the south.

One of the reasons we lose elections is because of posts like yours, in which you show an amazing eagerness to have Americans pay for the woes of the entire world. Most Americans, at least by every poll I've seen, want less spent on foreign aid and less spent on social services for illegals. If I weren't already a Democrat and was reading through DU to see the positions in issues, most threads here would steer me towards becoming a Democrat. Your post would have sent me rocketing to the other side just to see if they sounded any more reasonable - and they'd pretty much have to.

I don't have a problem with real emergency care for an illegal whose life is in danger or who has broken a bone, but I have a problem with providing them any other kind. I have a problem with illegals in no real danger being driven up to our hospitals because they know we have to pick up the tab, but most of all I have a problem with your post.

I DO think we need to protect our citizens first, I do NOT think my tax money is a foreign entitlement. You don't agree? Fine. But what really has me "ripped up right now," as you put it, is the "and fuck you if you don't agree with me, you piece of shit" tone of your post. First you imply that those who don't agree with you are freetards, and then you adopt the tone of a freetard yourself. What you wrote is no different in principle than the freetardish "if you're not for the war, you hate the troops and hate America."

Reasonable people can disagree. I'm not sympathetic towards people who want freebies at our expense and can't be bothered to register, whereas you are. That doesn't make me scum or a fucking freetard for not buying what you're selling, and a skillful Repug politician could spin you into a communist who wants Americans taxed to the hilt to pay for everyone. That's how we lose fucking elections and why we have such a fucking dildo in office.

I know lots of people who think exactly as you do on this issue, and we get along very well. There's always the chance that you and I agree on most other issues, but after hearing the way you presented this one I really couldn't care less what you think. By putting up a post that actually makes you sound as maniacal and unreasonable as a freetard, you're really not helping, but if it makes you feel better just keep on pounding everyone who doesn't think EXACTLY as you do on every issue. Spread the word in your style, get it to everyone, after which you and I can get together in January of 2009 and we can watch the inauguration of President Allen.

Like I said, you're really not helping.

[K-W]

181. And your exageration is helping?

One of the reasons we lose elections is because of posts like yours

If only internet posts had that kind of power. Luckily for all of us there are no such consequences to sharing our opinions on a forum and we can discuss things freely.

you show an amazing eagerness to have Americans pay for the woes of the entire world.

Except of course that this is completely bogus. Nobody has suggested this.

Your post would have sent me rocketing to the other side just to see if they sounded any more reasonable - and they'd pretty much have to.

If someone is so fickle and stupid that they pick parties based on whether or not they agree with one post on a forum setup by some members of that party, we really cant be concerned with pleasing them, can we?

I don't have a problem with real emergency care for an illegal whose life is in danger or who has broken a bone, but I have a problem with providing them any other kind. I have a problem with illegals in no real danger being driven up to our hospitals because they know we have to pick up the tab, but most of all I have a problem with your post.

We don't provide them with any other kind. Although you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. It would be much cheaper to provide preventive care to all people. This goes for poor people as well as immigrants. Preventive care is much more cost effective than emergency care.

Regardless, if you have no problem with providing illegals emergency care, then why are you going off on a tirade about a post that suggests pretty much the same thing?

Your post is every bit as hostile and exclusionary as the post you are replying to, perhaps moreso.

[Ron Mexico]

183. Wow. Exaggerating my "exaggeration." Superb.

If only internet posts had that kind of power. Luckily for all of us there are no such consequences to sharing our opinions on a forum and we can discuss things freely.

Think that way if you like, but I wouldn't underestimate the power of the Internet. I think it had a lot more to do with Bush's second term than those AM radio assholes did. We can certainly discuss things freely, but spitting on people who disagree with you generally doesn't make either side look good.

Except of course that this is completely bogus. Nobody has suggested this.

Plenty of people have, and in the case of the OP I honestly didn't think I needed to ask the "okay, who is going to pay" questions that were already asked elsewhere in the thread. I kind of thought the implication was obvious, but it wasn't in your case. Mea Culpa.

If someone is so fickle and stupid that they pick parties based on whether or not they agree with one post on a forum setup by some members of that party, we really cant be concerned with pleasing them, can we?

I was merely describing the effect the post can have on people. All of us on this board are voting Democrat anyway, but there still is a swing vote out there. When I read the OP's tirade,I didn't just see an opinion which opposes mine, I saw this:


"AAAAAH! WE MUST PAY FOR ILLEGALS' HEALTH CARE, AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T AGREE WILL BURN, BURN, BURN!"

There is no cause that this guy in the picture can be for which is likely to attract voters with that sort of approach, and in the case of the OP I would have been shaking my head reading that sort of post even if I agreed. Giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that your "stupid and fickle" shot wasn't directed at me, those who are truly stupid - likemost of the freetards - have a vote that count just as much as yours and mine. And in the case of the OP, I truly believe that anyone who posts telling others how to think deserves anything that comes. Freedom of speech doesn't mean a guaranteed adoring audience. Just as you're free to scoff at my post, I will feel free to scoff at the OP. But thanks for your input.

We don't provide them with any other kind.

Yes, we do. I was talking about receiving EMERGENCY CARE (care in an actual emergency), not just seeing a doctor in an emergency room like you or I would see a general practitioner, which illegals and the homeless do all the time. That costs billions. Further, my wife's best friend is a nurse in a D.C. hospital and tells us that illegals come on all the time complaining about whatever will get them this prescription or that, and in accordance with law the hospital has to provide a full battery of tests, most of which are expensive and go unpaid until the tab is passed to the taxpayer. For that matter, we provide school health care (and, for that matter, education) to kids here illegally. We DO provide them with other kinds. You couldn't be more wrong.

To address your second point: You may well be right about preventive care being cheaper (I assume you mean society-wide, not just for one individual who happens to get smacked by an emergency), but that's another issue entirely and wouldn't change my mind about taxpayer-paid services going to those here illegally. I'll discuss that in another thread if you start one and PM me the link, but not here. My point was that if the OP wants to change minds, the approach chosen is as poor of a choice imaginable.

Regardless, if you have no problem with providing illegals emergency care, then why are you going off on a tirade about a post that suggests pretty much the same thing?

It doesn't suggest the same thing, and even if it did, I was commenting on the "you're a fucking piece of shit if you don't take my view as gospel" tone anyway. I can't believe you read both posts and didn't get any of this.

Your post is every bit as hostile and exclusionary as the post you are replying to, perhaps moreso.

I'll agree with your use of "hostile," I admit that I intended that, but not with "exclusionary." Even if you're referring specifically to my indicating that I didn't care what the OP, personally, thought on other issues, at least I wasn't spitting on everyone who disagrees with me. Unlike the OP, I can hear different points of view without blowing a gasket and putting up a thread to bark at everyone who doesn't agree with me. Tolerance means tolerance of different viewpoints, no matter how distasteful you may find them, and the OP is anything but tolerant where this issue is concerned.

If you think that the OP's approach is effective, more power to you. I don't, and was exercising the same freedom of speech that the OP was. I showed him what you just showed me: nobody is guaranteed freedom from disapproval.

[El Fuego]

182. Great post.

The original post sounds like a freeper parody of DU.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

186. "Wahhh, they did it first" diplomacy. Beautiful. EOM

[LeftHander]

210. You said communist....how perceptive...

I have more affinity with that than a corporatist monarchy. To many I'm a leftist radical mother fucker who doesn't really want a government bought and paid for by the rich. I also think it might actually be nice for a change for people to really WORK for something. People who think all the immigrants are freeloaders looking for a free lunch do so because they are too. You want the free lunch. YOu want the easy life. SIpping cocktails poolside in your gated community safe from the media hyped "evil" of the world.

Yup send in the GOP piggies. I'll take them on. Because I can stand on my own two feet. I grew up with haters, bigots and racists. I learned early what makes them tick and I know how to bring that ugliness out in them. All you have to do is say word like "caring", "love" and "peace". And BOOM they jump out of the woodwork and jump all over my shit. I love it. They love it too becasue they then just say..."bleeding heart, irrational idealist." And wave it off. But in the back of the mind and in the black recess of the stone cold heart there is a crack opening and it starts to eat away. I am there to drive in the first spike. Call me a muck raker.

I don't stand by and let people justify bashing people for the color of thier skin, or the origin of thier birth to protect the perception that being white or a citizen entitles your to put themselves above others. (notice how I spun that...aligned racism with harsh immigration rules...I did that on purpose to force you to defend yourself, but ask yourself honestly how close are those two...? Is it fair...probably not...but there it is the 400 pound gorilla, deal with it. it is jsut like Marriage Protections is about marriage...nope it is purposly about discriminating against gay people.)

I wasn't put on this earth to bend over and grease up and play for the "man". Be the good little puppy, go to work and take on the debt, listen to AM radio and trust in "the lord" all for the token pat on the head and bowl of food.

Oh BTW we have a dildo in office because the wishy washy jelly filled center keeps getting licked up by the right. They sell out thier values because they are afraid of what it is really going to take to move this world into the future.

We all know what that is.

Peace, love, caring and compassion. Try those words on for size.

YOu know I am sure somewhere else we would have a wonderful conversation and find many shared positions. But on these boards...sometimes a little up the head smacking gets the ball rolling. So...with that I can say I understand your desire to have illegal aliens caught, punished and removed from our communities to protect your right as a US citizen. But are you really willing to do what it takes to accomplish that?

Rounding them up. Hunting them down as they hid in cupboards and hidden attics and basements. Forming citizen Patriot groups to inform on friends and nieghbors suspect of harboring illegal aliens. Spending your tax dollars on intermment camp, confiscating property and seperating families.

Is that what you want? Doesn't sound like America to me. But that is what Congressional Republicans want based on attitudes of the center and right concerning immigration.

I mean what else can be done to protect you from them?

[Ron Mexico]

213. I'll be happy to tell you how I'd handle it. No need to track anyone down.

Peace, love, caring and compassion. Try those words on for size.

If I don't completely gree with you, I'm lacking in all of these, I suppose. Groan.

So...with that I can say I understand your desire to have illegal aliens caught, punished and removed from our communities to protect your right as a US citizen. But are you really willing to do what it takes to accomplish that? Rounding them up. Hunting them down as they hid in cupboards and hidden attics and basements. Forming citizen Patriot groups to inform on friends and nieghbors suspect of harboring illegal aliens. Spending your tax dollars on intermment camp, confiscating property and seperating families. Is that what you want? Doesn't sound like America to me. But that is what Congressional Republicans want based on attitudes of the center and right concerning immigration. I mean what else can be done to protect you from them?

I am more than willing to do what it takes, but your suggested "hunt 'em down in attics and cupboards" stormtrooper approach - which I take as being facetious, since I've never heard anyone in office suggest it (I only hear it from assholes on barstools) - is neither necessary nor feasible. Simply remove all incentive for people to be here illegally. In other words, make this society welcoming to people who want to play by the rules and sheer hell for those who don't. Threaten employers with extremely serious penalties for hiring illegals (a year in jail for each one hired, confiscation of all business holdings), end all social services for illegals except for health care in life-threatening (and only life-threatening) emergencies and deport them after they're released from the hospital, deport them when they're charged with any other crime, no more drivers' licenses for them, no bank accounts for them, make it illegal to wire money out of the country without first proving legal status, declare all deported personnel persona non grata and then make violation of such an order an offense warranting a minimum of 20 years of hard labor, etc.

There are a couple of things you mentioned that I would be more than willing to add to my list. As for separating families, I have no problem with if it involves illegals sneaking across the border just to give birth here and play on our sympathies while collecting social services as illegal parents of a child citizen. It just goes further to my "remove all incentive for people to be here illegally" plan. I would also confiscate property, bank accounts, etc, of anyone here illegally. Now I'm not talking about someone whose visa expires one day and loses everything the next - I'm talking about people who clearly intend to live here without ever registering.

There's no need to actually hunt them down. Remove the incentives - ALL of the incentives - and they will leave (or at least stop breaking in and staying illegally). If there's so much more opportunity here, expecting people here to register with the INS isn't too much to ask. Slow process? Tough shit. Red tape is part of the American Dream. Bad law? Change it. But the idea that people can be here in violation of our current laws and other people can expect we here legally to pay for them irks the shit out of me. If the federal government wanted to set up a charity to help illegals that existed on voluntary contributions only, that'd be one thing - but I am completely against being forced to pay for them myself. If they don't respect our laws enough to follow them, I don't have any sympathy for any of them, period.

Remove all incentives, make it as bad (or worse, if possible) for illegals here than it would be where they came from, and the problem grinds to a halt. Regrettably, neither party wants to enforce immigration law, so this is all theoretical discussion, but I would happily do everything I mentioned if I were in charge, and I resent having my tax dollars support illegals in ANY way. That's not nationalism, it's not racism, because my attitude is one of open arms towards legals of all races / nationalities and one of contempt towards illegals of all races / nationalities. I just want people to respect our laws when they come here, just as I would when visiting any other country. We shouldn't be picking and choosing which laws to break simply based on convenience (or rewarding people who break laws like that, much less applauding those who do) - that's what Republicans do.

[LeftHander]

218. Interesting...

I one of my ideas for policy I treid to make entry into the system available at all levels. Be it beofre during of after the border crossing. I tried to purposely stay away from penalizing the immigrant but in an almost oppsite manor to your proposal...to make it desrieable to enter into the system. becasue of the resources available.

Not handouts per se but given choices. Non-mandatory choices. I think the reasoning is one thing we all agree on is we don;t want an entire culture and economy running within our own economy that does not pay taxes...

By making it really easy to register and not penalizing or criminalizing undocumanted immigrants will allow more to become legitimate and actually provide real tax revenue. Of course this is based on the assumption that in general people are honest and want to do the right thing when given the choice.

RIght now I don't see where many undcumented immigrants have a choice. If they are discovered they are deported and lose everything.

I'll read your post in more detail this weeknd.

Have a wonderful holiday.

[LanternWaste]

215. Cost me all of $15.

Odd. I received ER care when I lived (illegally) in Quitana Roo. Cost me all of $15.

[imlost]

191. Fucking Great Post!!!!

[LanternWaste]

214. I'm in fundamental agreement for different reasons...

I'm in fundamental agreement for different reasons...

It's all an accident of birth. An ACCIDENT. A random turn of the wheel and for some people it stops on Red 21 and for others it stops on Black 16.

Borders don't exist anywhere but our own narrow imaginations. Imaginations that have always seemed to need a "them" to counteract "us". The cultural habit of nationalism/tribalism that is buried so deep in our selves that regardless of how enlightened we perceive ourselves, we always seem to take a mental step or two back when the imaginary red and black lines drawn on maps are "violated" by "them".

In the end, we are all humans doing the best we can-- sometimes that means attempting migration, other times that means attempting to deny others migration; but it's going to happen with or without our condemnations or our tolerances, it's a concept called 'acculturation'.

Humanity cannot control the directions of individual imaginations-- some think the red lines are an absolute reality, others think them mere fantasy.

[LeftHander]

217. Oh...that is really beautiful.....

"Humanity cannot control the directions of individual imaginations"

That is one of the most profound things I heard in a long time.

You said in so few words all that is so true...we are in the end just riders on a much larger path of humanity. How we navigate that path depends on how we perceive our own individual places in that continum. Lucky for us we have concepts like "love" that we all share to guide us. Hopefully we choose to listen to it.

thanks

[SnoopDog]

220. Just what will it take to unite us all...? Aliens from another planet?

C'mon you should have prepared for this - pull yourself up from your bootstraps. But, but, aliens just death rayed my spouse... Oh, doesn't matter. You should have had an anti-death ray. But but your mother was just death rayed. Thats ok, I'll get her inheritance. But but life is being destroyed on earth. Oh c'mon - like global warming... ha ha ha what a crock. But but what about the space ships - I can see them - they are death ray'ing everything. Hold on, I am abusing some little children. Ok. what now...

[hansberrym]

221. Does the US Constitution suck? Does the Bill of Rights suck?

Does the rule of law suck?

Ultra-nationalism (i.e. Nazism, Fascism, and the like) does indeed suck.
But lets not go overboard and slander the Nationalism that made this country great by confusing it with the Ultra-nationalism that seized so many countries and caused so much destruction in the 20th century.

Oddly the One World Order crowd presently occupying the Whitehouse agrees with you on the issue of open borders, but then it is their goal to submerge the USA into regional government -what's your plan? If not Independence, then what?



Blasts from the past:

Independence forever!
http://www.heritage.org/Research/AmericanFoundingandHistory/BG1451.cfm


"...that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/gettysburg.htm