Sun Tzu on long wars

[GAspnes]

This guy really knew what he was talking about.

1. Sun Tzu said: In the operations of war,
where there are in the field a thousand swift chariots,
as many heavy chariots, and a hundred thousand
mail-clad soldiers, with provisions enough to carry them
a thousand li, the expenditure at home and at the front,
including entertainment of guests, small items such as
glue and paint, and sums spent on chariots and armor,
will reach the total of a thousand ounces of silver per day.
Such is the cost of raising an army of 100,000 men.

2. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory
is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and
their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town,
you will exhaust your strength.
3. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources
of the State will not be equal to the strain.

4. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped,
your strength exhausted and your treasure spent,
other chieftains will spring up to take advantage
of your extremity. Then no man, however wise,
will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.

5. Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in war,
cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays.

6. There is no instance of a country having benefited
from prolonged warfare.

I wonder why we have to keep re-learning these things? In 500 B.C. dollars, the Iraq war has cost $18.7 million. Allowing for inflation, I think Sun Tzu was pretty accurate.

[Beacho]

1. Art Of War

By Master Sun.

One of the books that war fans love to reference but never read.

Good quotation, that these war freaks would never understand.

[WiseButAngrySara]

5. The same applies to their (mis)understanding of Thucydides

and Machiavelli. People interpret as they see the world.

[Aviation Pro]

19. Also Adam Smith....

...although anyone who has waded through that tome understands why.

[Fovea]

22. Machievelli

Was also a successful military commander and theorist. But most of all I can't shake the feeling that, ** and Karl would have done well to read his advice to Princes that look to aquire a principality that was formerly a republic.

[Aviation Pro]

18. It was mandatory reading in three schools and two units....

...that I was a part of. I still have my dog-earred copy in one of my bookshelves. (Side note: every time I have guests, they stand in awe at the number of books I have. My question is, why?).

[Vexatious Ape]

2. Something tells me this book will not be found in the

GW Bush library.

[The Doctor.]

13. No, but the jacket will. nt

[WiseButAngrySara]

20. Yes it is! Hu Jintao gave the book to Bush... Check out the remarks!

http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=537040

*************************************************************************************
Sun Tzu and Bush

The relevance of Sun Tzu
The Art of War translated by John Minford

Reviewed by Dmitry Shlapentokh

The classics are always worth reading. The Art of War by Sun Tzu certainly falls in this category, and this is apparently the reason it was republished recently in English. Sun Tzu's treatise is regarded as a classic of military science and seems to be especially appropriate reading for the English-speaking public at a time when the United States and its major European ally, Britain, have engaged in wars or are in preparation for new wars on many fronts. Indeed, Sun Tzu has become quite a popular author and is frequently quoted.

Therefore, it is not accidental that when the general secretary of the Chinese Communist Party, Hu Jintao, visited the US, he gave the book to President George W Bush, as a hint on how the United States should deal with its numerous geopolitical challenges. Yet one could doubt that Sun Tzu's advice would be of use to a US administration, regardless of who sits in the White House.

The message of the book is clear: war is won not through strength but through skillful manipulation - a victory of the writing brush and brains over sword and strength. This vision of war is related to another major point of the book, or at least can be interpreted in this way: war is not just the function of the military but is the exercise of the entire societal body. And it is here that the US military behemoth fails: America's socio-economic fabric as a whole is not designed to win the current wars, regardless of what seems to be enormous and constantly increasing investments in the country's military machine.


Sun Tzu

Giving a book to George Bush, is like
Giving a laptop to a monkey!

Sun's book is about the "Art of War"

Seems painfully obvious that neither he or his administration has read it.

Most of America's generals think Bush and Rumsfield are idiots!


************************************************************************************

[xchrom]

3. here's the kicker:

3. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources
of the State will not be equal to the strain.

this is what radicals are counting on in the long run.

they don't have to have the equivalent of a hiroshima or 9-11 all the time -- rarely in fact.

what america can't do -- especially now with our federal and personal finances in ill helath -- is stay in the field for a long time.

but here's what the extremists can't stand up to -- good co-ordinated international police work, and economics that do a better job of lifting all boats.

[UTUSN]

4. But the NeoCons & classsicists advocate PERPETUAL war

Victor Davis HANSEN, CHEENEE's guru, who provided the illiterate Shrubbites with examples from history for doing what they wanted to do anyway, sez that PERPETUAL war REJUVENATES the country. He, PAGLIA, NIETZSCHE, STRAUSS are from the Classics Department. I don't grok how they get around the depletion of blood and treasure.

[WiseButAngrySara]

6. Thanks. Excellent post.

4. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped,
your strength exhausted and your treasure spent,
other chieftains will spring up to take advantage
of your extremity. Then no man, however wise,
will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.

5. Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in war,
cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays.

6. There is no instance of a country having benefited
from prolonged warfare.

God, we're doomed. Stupid leader, stupid haste, prolonged warfare, and just too much waste of everything, most importantly lives.

[GAspnes]

7. thank you

I was re-reading him tonight and that is what leapt out at me.

[WiseButAngrySara]

9. There are several free copies of this on the internet. I had

downloaded a copy a few years ago in an attempt to understand the NeoCon philosophy of War, and tried to find the link using Google, but no luck. Here is a link to one of many.

http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html

Thanks again for a thought provoking post.

[Malikshah]

8. Sun Tzu... Should have been required reading for all in the Admin and Pentagon

Any civilian/military official who states that they've read it and utilized it in the Iraq war are liars.

Need proof?

See below



7. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted
with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand
the profitable way of carrying it on.

500 Billion much? Such profits...

8. The skillful soldier does not raise a second levy,
neither are his supply-wagons loaded more than twice.

Stop loss? Surge? Turning a corner??

1. Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best
thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact;
to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is
better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it,
to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire
than to destroy them.

Looting? Thousands of sorties?? 100,000+ civilians? No infrastructure left to speak of?

2. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles
is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists
in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

Hmmm?? W/O fighting? Who'd a thunk it?

3. Thus the highest form of generalship is to
balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent
the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in
order is to attack the enemy's army in the field;
and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.

Falluja? Hilla? Anbar province? Samarra?


12. There are three ways in which a ruler can bring
misfortune upon his army:--

13. (1) By commanding the army to advance or to retreat,
being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey.
This is called hobbling the army.

14. (2) By attempting to govern an army in the
same way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant
of the conditions which obtain in an army. This causes
restlessness in the soldier's minds.

15. (3) By employing the officers of his army
without discrimination, through ignorance of the
military principle of adaptation to circumstances.
This shakes the confidence of the soldiers.

Three letters: GWB. Nuf said

18. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy
and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a
hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy,
for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will
succumb in every battle.

15. Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist
only seeks battle after the victory has been won,
whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights
and afterwards looks for victory.

Truer words...

All warfare is deception-- and the best general knows this and avoids battles at all costs.

Win the war by other means-- means that you control. Battles have too many variables... It's so simple even an idiot could understand-- at least I used to think even an idiot could understand...

[emanymton]

15. "The Art Of War" Is Required Reading By Military.

The book is a good easy read. Professionals read it and live it. BUT -

The failures come not from the military side of the issue. Please remember, the military leadership was ordered to conduct military operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. They have done a fine job. Generals/admirals know their business. shrub and Co. do not.

Militarily, the marketing campaign in Iraq was over a long time ago. shrub and Co.'s failures are political, not military.

[Malikshah]

17. I would have agreed, were it not for statements of some of those in

the top brass who showed their ability to ignore Sun Tzu's precepts. After a number of discussions with someone close to me who spent 30+ years in the military, it's clear-- they read it, but there are those who focus on career first, principles second.

Folks like Odum-- know the deal.

It's clear though, that those who're military and have spoken out regarding these issues, often do so after they retire.

I agree that the 90% falls on the shoulders of the civilian "leaders" The implementation of the policy at the highest levels, though, must fall on the shoulders of those who must see the failed policy be put into place-- and for that they, too, bear responsibility.

[ourbluenation]

10. wow. thx n/t

[fNord]

11. Machiavelli on controlling the masses

"Therefore a wise prince will seek means by which his subjects will always and in every possible way be in need of his leadership, and then they will always be loyal."

[WiseButAngrySara]

21. Apparently Rove has Machiavelli memorized, but he sure

did screw up on this one... (or have you checked B*tard's recent poll numbers? If that's any indication of loyalty!)

BTW, Welcome to DU! :hi:

[intheflow]

12. I love this post!

Everyone should have a daily dose of Taoism to keep themselves in balance.

Naturally, the extremists who have hijacked our country will never get it.

[PerfectSage]

14. Gotta love Colonel John Boyd

FMFM 1A 4th generation warfare, a ripoff/extension of MCDP 1 (Marine Corps Doctine Paper Warfighting) which is the Marine Corps attempt to make manuever warfare(3rd generation warfare) their doctrine.

How to win guerilla warfare on Sun Tzu's moral level.
http://www.d-n-i.net/lind/fmfm_1a_r3.pdf

And the the highest level of the warrior archetype is service... ....which is what Sun Tzu's moral level is all about? The delicious irony

http://robertmoore-phd.com/Th_Structures_of_the_Self.cfm


What if John Boyd and Sun Tzu did a National defence review.
http://www.d-n-i.net/richards/sword_4_boyd.pdf

[trof]

16. K&R

OP and comments very enlightening.
Thank you.