Will the United States be no more. A look at a possible Future for us

[illinoisprogressive]

I ran across this interesting article in a Toronto newspaper questioning if the United States will remain so.
Apparently there is a movement to annex the north to Canada.
There is a growing disgruntlement of the north with the southern states and the divide is growing to pre civil war status.
the north is growing sick of the south and it's ultra conservitism and it;s far evangelical religions. It's growing irritated with the south's rejection of technology and science, it's lack of environmental conscience and the economic disparity.
There has always been tension between the ideas of the north and the south. but, apparently it's gotten wider and wider apart in it's thinking and ideas and morals.

If interested in reading this here is the link:

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/article/164488

[KamaAina]

1. You mean something along these lines?

[illinoisprogressive]

2. lol. seems like it won't be a joke afterall. maybe the cartoon gave

them the idea....hahahaha.

[dysfunctional press]

5. those are boundaries that i could definitely go for...

nt.

[Clark2008]

7. Really?

You guys would actually abandon the 42 to 47 percent of us in the South and the mid-West who consistantly vote Democratic?

Really?

You would leave your fellow Americans?

Good Lord.

[MissWaverly]

23. No, not really, you folks are on the mark with Bio Diesel

Bio Willie-biofuels being promoted by Willie Nelson, and the plan to develop 500,000 local farmers growing crops for bio-fuel, supplying America with the fuel it needs while rebuilding the middle class. Best idea I have heard in a long time, thanks, to everyone helping with this. Willie says that he drives his Mercedes with biofuel and it burns clean
so it will make the polar bears happy, the fumes from the processing actually help the
plants still in the ground. And the best part as Willie Nelson says: No War Required.

Plus I like Wes Clark, I think he's the most intelligent candidate we have and am a big
fan of President Carter.

;-)

[haymark]

74. Who will grow crops in sufficient quantities?

Ma and Pa or Monsanto?

[MissWaverly]

111. they think it will only be workable as a Mom and Pop business

where each farm would produce for local processors.

[dysfunctional press]

38. in a heartbeat.

nothing says that you have to stay in jesusland.

[Dover]

123. Then where would all the snowbirds in their Winnebagos go for the winter?

Of course with global warming, that little seasonal exchange may end on its own.


You have to at least include the Southwest folks and a big pink circle around Austin Texas which is and will continue to be a leader toward enlightenment, civic involvement, music, the arts and sustainable living.

[Blue_In_AK]

46. WRONG!

Alaska is part of the United States of Canada. This is NOT Jesusland up here.

[roamer65]

3. Michigan has more in common with Ontario than Alabama.

I would vote "yes" on any referendum to secede from the United States and join the Canadian confederation. Most definitely.

[BayCityProgressive]

4. I am in Michigan

AND SO WOULD I!

[roamer65]

8. ...and since we have a Canadian born governor...

that means she could run for parliament in Ottawa and be our next Liberal or NDP Prime Minister!!:bounce:

[generaldemocrat]

6. I for one, wouldn't mind union with Canada.....

Half of my friends are canucks and they've got great skiing up there.

[TahitiNut]

119. Well, when I was younger, I had a union with a Canadian, so I'm in favor of it.

:evilgrin:

Eh? :dunce:

[seabeyond]

9. utah and idaho more conservative than down here .... gonna be a jagged

borger

[Change has come]

48. sigh...

What to do with the hundreds of thousands of our liberal sisters and brothers in Utah and Idaho?

[seabeyond]

51. same thing you do with your liberal"ish" sister in texas.....

battin eyelashes.

just the whole north and south thing is steeupid.

[IDemo]

95. Save a spot for me in Alberta

[and-justice-for-all]

10. Fuck Jesusland...

Ill has some conservative elements to it, anything south of I-70 seems to be rather cristo-facist. Indiana, where I live has parts that are not conservative like Bloomington (IU) and parts that are. the parts that are are the ones that are not in touch with world. Small/isolated towns.

But I will agree that they south is dead weight and need to shack off the dogma, they are living in a illlusion that has no benefits. Why cant they all just move to El Salvador?

USofC could then join the EU, that would rock.

[Clark2008]

15. Wow...

The bigotry on this board is amazing.

You do realize that the South has more black voters than any other region in the country, don't you?

You do realize that not everyone - in fact, not even whole majorities - in the south are "christo-facist," don't you?

Fuck Ignorance... which apparently this board has a lot of.

[and-justice-for-all]

27. bigotry!!?

Excuse me but last I checked the Neo-Conservative Jeebus freaks do all that they can to supress miniority communities, secualism and anything else that doesnt fit their agenda.

I didnt come up the the OP concept, I was just commenting on it, and if thats what Jesusland looks like...then FUCK IT. That ideology is toxic garbage and I want no part of it, if there are people in the south that do not agree with the people they elect, then I suggest they stop voting for the "G-d/Jeebus talks to me" delusional fools.

Ignorant? please, there is nothing more ignorant then those who believe in things they can not see or have proof of its existence.

If being outspoken about my obvious disapproval of religion is being bigoted or ignorant, then I think you need to look at the shit sandwiches that religious freaks have been serving for decades.

I say religion is BUNK, you say that makes me a bigot??? whatever.

[Clark2008]

32. I'm not talking about religion...duh.

I'm talking about the fact that you think everyone in the South thinks like the christo-facists.

The bigotry I was discussing was what you ASSUMED to be true of the entire South and isn't. The entire South is NOT made up of a bunch of religious, racist assholes. In fact, about 15 percent of Republican voters vote that way for fiscal reasons and not for racist or religious reasons at all. That's true all over.

The bigotry is in your characterization of an entire region based on ONE sub-group of people. That's stereotyping and HIGHLY bigoted.

[and-justice-for-all]

39. The cristo-facist currently have the south by the balls...

...but, everwhere you go you are going to find "liberals" trapped in red states and vise versa....

I commited on the map and the title of the southern or more conservative regions as that map shows. I didnt clump all those people into on catagory, but the map did and I committed on it. Its not true so it does not matter, now does it?

The South has always been more conservative, along with some mid-west stated then most..that is true.

Im not an idiot, I know there are "liberals" in the south, but they do not currently make up the majority.

[Clark2008]

47. That may be true, but if a small percentage of liberals

from blue states would simply move into the border Southern states and a couple of states in the mid-West, then the problem would be solved. We could flip four or five Southern and mid-Western states and get rid of the plague.

I like the idea of Americans moving to other American states to effect change MUCH more than I like attaching part of the United States to another country.

[Bucky]

72. No, they don't "have us by the balls." They have us by the wallet.

If they'd only learn to grab my balls right, I'd willingly give them my wallet.

[LynnTheDem]

83. ROTFL!!!

:rofl:

[Clark2008]

85. I love you, bucky.

:rofl:

[MistressOverdone]

99. I have to agree

with you. The whole "the south is a bunch of rednecks" is highly bigotted, and ignorant as well. There are important science centers all over the south, including the largest magnetic field lab in the world. Attempts to compartmentalize the country weaken us all, in my opinion. Idiots are universal, and obviously there are quite a few in PLACES ONE WOULDN'T EXPECT THEM.

[MistressOverdone]

101. I do believe he was

talking about the north/south issue rather than religion. You simply can't make those generalizations. They are not correct. I've lived all over the country. There are fine people everywhere and questionable people everywhere. The south does not have a surplus. Frankly, the scariest people I ever encountered were in Maine. Made Deliverance look like Anne of Green Gables. But I am sure they were exceptions to the rest of the culture in Maine.

[Zodiak]

I agree

My family lives in Texas...moved there from the old country. I guess I'll have to be a lonely biologist in Jesusland, abandoned by the other states that didn't like my neighbors. Many Southerners are freeptards because they do not know any better...they are just taught that good Americans embrace this country with their heart and soul.

But the worm is turning. It is better in my home town than it was in 2003...a lot of us "libruls" have been talking to our families and are making head-way. Don't give up on us yet.

[Bucky]

71. Common science error: Dont confuse volume with mass

Mass means a lot people. Volume means a lot of noise. Haters squawk a lot, but that doesn't mean they outnumber us.

[Flying Dream Blues]

29. Thanks for illustrating bigotry in all its glory. But how can that be?

You're not from "Jesusland." Hmmm.

Thanks for giving me my daily "F*** you"...the sun's already down and I was getting nervous. If I hadn't been brought up better, I'd be glad to return the favor; darn my Southern manners, anyway.

[and-justice-for-all]

43. Im was refering the Jesusland and the fake map! nt

[Flying Dream Blues]

70. Well, calling the south dead weight and suggesting we all move

to El Salvador just rubbed me the wrong way for some reason. Try to remember that "they" are only 52% and that of that 52% a great number of them are not religious zealots. The rest of us 48% are just as serious in our convictions as you are. So I'm asking you to have a care not to foster bigoted divisiveness within the Democratic ranks.

I happen to love my state, and would hope you (and others replying in the same vein) could respect that as I try to respect yours.

[Cobalt-60]

76. Illinois almost split down that approximate line

during the civil war.
They wanted to make Southern Illinois into "Egypt".
I'm a few miles south of '70 - and I don't want to be " Left Behind"

[mmonk]

11. I will leave my home in NC in a heartbeat

is there is a union as you describe. I want to be normal again and not worry about this for my family anymore.

[RB TexLa]

12. So a union with Canada is fine but one with Mexico is not fine on DU

any mention of a NAU is met by soundbites of the John Birch Socity on soverignty and protectionism.

I wonder why a union with the nothern states and Canada is more acceptable? Humm, I wonder.

[Clark2008]

14. And they say we're racist down here.

Great graphic RGBolen. :applause:

[generaldemocrat]

16. Why Canada and not Mexico? Simple.....

Canada has a stronger economy and isn't falling apart from within.

[Blue_In_AK]

55. The graphic is kind of deceptive, I think

because the assumption is that the areas that are yellow, especially pale yellow, are lily white. That's certainly not the case up here. Minorities make up over 50% of the Anchorage school district now -- Alaska Natives, Asians, South Pacific Islanders, white kids, black kids. Almost 100 languages are spoken by Anchorage's school children. We take a lot of pride in our ethnic diversity -- and racial prejudice, while it does occur, of course, is soundly condemned by the community-at-large.

Off topic a little bit, I know, but I imagine a similar dynamic is going on in a lot of the other states that look likely they're racially homogenous on this map.

[Solon]

78. Another Apples to Oranges comparison by fly-by poster RGBolen!

Do you ever have anything of value to contribute to this website, or do you just like spouting some BS you made up on the spot?

A NAU, as YOU are proposing it, is NOT the same thing as being Annexed by Canada, first thing I can think of is this, Canada is Democratic, your NAU wouldn't be. In addition to that, Canada has greater regulation regarding labor and human rights than even the United States, the same cannot be said for Mexico.

[MistressOverdone]

102. Bingo

[Leopolds Ghost]

114. Excellent point. Not to mention most Black people are religious

If we exile all religious progressives, we can (oh-so-conveniently) recreate an ideologically, ethnically pure Progressivism like the middle-class movements of the 1880s to 1920s. Pasty-faced, secular geek chauvinism!

[Clark2008]

13. This is a bunch of bullshit.

First off, the divide is rural vs. city. It's just that there are fewer large cities in the South and mid-West, thus making the states turn red, even when there are between 42 and 47 percent of the population in nearly each of these states (Utah and a couple of other states not included) who vote Democratic.

What you people SHOULD do is move down here and push that number up to 51 percent. Try going into Tennessee, Virginia, Arkansas, New Mexico and Arizona first. Flip those states. They're flippable. They would easily go Democratic with just a few more blue voters living there.

Instead, I see a whole bunch of DUers who would rather LEAVE than stay and FIGHT.

Wow... maybe there's some truth to the "wimpy" label.

I choose to stay in my state and fight. We're slowly, but surely, moving back to the pre-1994 era, which is the FIRST time the South voted as a block for Republicans. Up until that time, we had supported many Dems, including Bill Clinton, Al Gore and Max Cleland (to name a few). It's really not been all that long ago.

[generaldemocrat]

17. I think a lot of people in blue states have had it with the South.

I hear more and more blue-staters uttering: "We should've just let them secede in the 1860s." On most days, I agree. America would have fewer problems domestically and internationally had the South been permanently divorced from this country 140 years ago.

[roamer65]

18. I've called it "Lincoln's mistake"

Putting on my flamesuit now. The above statement usually gets people all wound up, but really the separation should have been allowed to occur peaceably.

[Coventina]

36. Wow, so the whole abolition of slavery thing was a "mistake"?

Yikes!

[roamer65]

40. Slavery was not the main reason for the war.

It took Lincoln all the way to 1863 to outlaw it, and then only to gain British support for the North. I have never agreed with forced federalism. Do you think we should be forcing federalism down the throat of the Iraqis, even though they clearly don't want it?

[Clark2008]

49. I'll agree with you here.

Because we're still fighting out the states rights v. federal government rights war and that has WAY more to do with the divide between Northern and Southern states than slavery or racism did or do.

[Leopolds Ghost]

115. No, "States rights" is code for "black rights" issue. That's why the South has an opinion on it. n/t

[Coventina]

54. Well, there are a lot of people who disagree with you

http://www.swcivilwar.com/cw_causes.html

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761567354/Civil_War_American.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_American_Civil_War

http://www.worldbook.com/wb/Students?content_spotlight/civil_war

http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/investigations/206_civilwar.html

[roamer65]

57. I still would have voted for McClellan in 1864.

45% of northern voters supported George McClellan for president.

[Clark2008]

59. Don't you know the winner always gets to write history?

Northern folk always thought it was about slavery, but to the poor and middle class Southerner - who couldn't afford to own plantations and slaves - it was about states rights. Ask a Southern historian.

Edited to add: And I'm glad the North DID win. Slavery would have eventually become economically unfeasible for the South anyway, but that's neither here nor there when we're discussing the treatment of other human beings. I'm certainly NOT sticking up for slavery. I'm merely pointing out that a lot of Southerners didn't fight the "War of Northern Agression" because of slavery. They couldn't and didn't even own slaves or live lavish lifestyles.

[Coventina]

92. Well, this descendant of plantation owners thanks God/dess

every day that the North kicked our ass.

If nothing else, it was karmic justice.

[MadHound]

94. God, are you ignorant of our history

If slavery wasn't the main reason for the Civil War, why is it prominently mentioned, in the preamble or first paragraph of every seccession statement as being the reason that particular state is leaving?:eyes:

Please don't give me the states' rights hooey.

Oh, and the reason why Lincoln waited until 1863 was for internal political reasons, balancing a political coalition while running the war. It had little to do with our relations with the British.

[Arugula Latte]

120. "Slavery was not the main reason for the war"

Uh -- yeah. Love that revisionist rightwing talking point. I also love it when people say "economics was the reason" ... Yeah--the economics of Slavery!

[Clark2008]

20. Then blue staters are much more ignorant than they claim

red staters are.

That attitude is nothing but the bigotry they allege we hold against black people.

The South is only the way it is right now - which has been a recent phenomenon - because of the lack of alternative media. We have none. We have only Rush, Hannity and Savage. No AAR, very few liberal newspapers and no way to get the liberal message out.

Want to help change things? Have some of those "wealthy" blue staters buy some stations in the South and put on some liberal programming.

The South did not vote as a block for Republicans until 1994 - a couple of years after Rush was on the radio in nearly every market. Nixon may have had his little strategies, but they didn't work until the propaganda wagon took over all our radio stations.

[generaldemocrat]

25. Blue state tax dollars get recycled as federal aid in the South.........

from year to year, blue states pay more in federal taxes to the government than they receive in return in federal aid. Meanwhile, red states are being bailed out by the federal government eventhough they pay less taxes.

Here, look for yourself:
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2004/09/red_states_feed.html

[Clark2008]

33. And that has what to do with what you just said?

You said Northerners didn't like Southerners because they think we are backward, socially, now you say it's fiscal.

Which is it?

[generaldemocrat]

41. Northerners don't believe that Southerners will change....

look I lived in the south for five years and I believe that they are resistant to change and when they have to change against their will, they blame it obsessively on LIBS/Yankees/Gays/Minorities and then they take on a lifetime obsession at getting even with us. We Dems lost the South ever since we pushed the Civil Rights Act in 1964, since then we've largely been despised down there.

Look I met some really nice Dems/Indies down there, but this whole conservative sub-culture rooted in evangelicalism, megachurches, reminiscing about the days of the confederacy, etc are just a bit too much for a non-Southerner to stomach.

[Clark2008]

56. But, you see, that's not true.

The South consistantly supported Democrats right up until 1994, a full 30 years after the Civil Rights Movement.

Either that was the slowest resulting reaction OR it isn't true.

I think we need to do a study about why the South changed so suddenly in 1994. My personal opinion is the propaganda on our radio waves - the Rush's, Hannity's and such - and NOT as for all the hokey "race" reasons that Northern scholars keep alleging.

Afterall, Jim Sasser and Al Gore were my senators growing up. My state, along with every state in the South (with the exception of South Carolina and Virginia), supported Bill Clinton BOTH times and Georgia had Max Clelland and a few other Democratic representatives... up until 1994.

What changed in those few years up until 1994? This: The Rush Limbaugh Show has helped transform AM broadcasting. After the shift of music to FM in the late 1970s and early 1980s, Limbaugh's show was first nationally syndicated in August 1988. Talk radio stations, many built around Limbaugh's show, and programming which may be viewed as conservative have now come to dominate AM radio. As of 2005, Arbitron ratings indicate the show's audience to average 13.5 million listeners weekly, making it the largest radio talk show audience in the United States. Such high ratings have been a consistent hallmark of his show.

By 1992, Rush was on nearly every radio station in the South.

I think THAT - and conservative radio in general - had way more to do with the shift than the blip after the Civil Rights Movement and the pockets of racism that created.

[MistressOverdone]

103. I think a lot of African American folks

might disagree with that.

[hughee99]

21. Sounds like some people want to "cut and run"... n/t

[piedmont]

73. I disagree on one point, Clark2008

What you people SHOULD do is move down here and push that number up to 51 percent.

If the blue voters come attached to the pompous, self-righteous attitudes displayed in this thread then they can stay the hell away. Attitudes can change in the south without having to rely on obnoxious Yankees and more suburban sprawl to house 'em all.

[Leopolds Ghost]

116. Hear hear.

As a Marylander with relatives in the Frozen North and the Deep South, I agree.

Oh, and my Frozen North relatives are far more strident in their religious beliefs than my southern relatives.

[Flying Dream Blues]

19. I guess I don't get why people are so smug about a 4 or 5% majority

--and are willing to throw the rest of us under the bus? States where a good 48% of us vote Democratic--just screw us, we're "dead weight." Wow, that just stuns me. Everytime this comes up it makes me sick. Being in a larger group doesn't make you BETTER Dems than the rest of us, does it? Really?

Edited to add: This is not really in response to the OP, who was simply presenting an idea, but more in response to some of the comments and replies to the OP. Thanks.

[Clark2008]

22. The comments here are way more hateful than I ever

hear anyone around here (in the South) saying.

Thanks for sticking up for us blue voters in red states, TTLG. :hug:

[generaldemocrat]

26. You blue voters in red states deserve better.....

That's why you should be more than welcome to seek refuge in blue states.

[roamer65]

31. Not refuge, full citizenship!

[Clark2008]

34. I don't want to move to a blue state.

Why don't YOU GUYS move down here?

I really don't want to live in the cold North or the, well, I don't like California, and we'll just leave it at that. I want to live here. It's pretty and the people are friendly.

I want to stay here and change my state from within.

[raccoon]

97. Thanks for the offer, and the kind sentiments,

but it's kind of difficult for some of us. Due to family ties, for one thing.

Another thing, unless you're retired or have some really marketable skill, it's hard nowadays to find a job (IME and observation of others as well) in your own state, much less after you've moved somewhere where you don't know anybody.

Of course I could always teach Southern dialect and accent to Minnesotans. :silly:

[roamer65]

28. You realize that I would welcome you to the new Canadian north with open arms?

:grouphug:

[Clark2008]

37. That's nice, but I don't want to live up there.

See, that's the thing.

I want to stay in my warmish climate with four good seasons and fight for my beautiful state from within.

Can't you guys up North understand that? We Southerners happen to LIKE our states, just not SOME of the people. We don't WANT to move.

[generaldemocrat]

45. Well, I can only wish you the best of luck in your endeavours. n/t

[MistressOverdone]

105. I am astonished

and it kind of reminds me of one post 2004 election rant where I read that the south sucked because everybody knew that the cities up north had better shops and got first run movies sooner.

And I'm not just sticking up for the Dems, either. There are some good Republicans who just happen to have different political views, views they have every right, in a Democratic society, to hold. I really never thought I'd live long enough to hear people told about splitting the union because other people are "stupid" enough to disagree with them. And maintaining that the South should have been allowed to leave the union unmolested is such a dismissive comment to black people, who would in all probability still be in chains, that is it beyond my understanding.

And now I know, as a newbie, just what the new ignore feature is all about. What a great idea! As a southerner, I really don't want to deal with the level of bigotry and ignorance I have discovered on DU but throught the magic of technology and the good sense of Skinner, et al, I can eliminate those folks from my experience and keep my blood pressure down.

[Ignacio Upton]

24. I'd watch out for the southwest and Hawaii

The Aztlan types will gain traction if we have a largely impoverished group of Chicanos a few generations from now. The historical formula of having a single, unassimilated group of people living in one cohesive geographical cluster leading to nationalism could easily happen if the economy turns sour (and I mean Great Depression-like) combined with a feeling of oppression.

At the same time, I could see Hawaii doing its own thing simply because it's so far away geographically, and because it was once it's own country until we annexed it.

[Jennicut]

30. I am from CT but I don't know if I could ever move to the South

"Listen the South lost the civil war and slavery was wrong. But at least you guys have got the Doobie Brothers... and Nascar." Its not a direct quote but it was something similar to what Ben Stiller said in a Night at the Museum. The people/animals come alive at night in the museum and he was telling the Southern soilders the total hard to swallow truth when they would not stop fighting with the Northern soilders. Dumb but fun movie, saw it with my hubby recently. Anyways, the South is just so foreign to me. I mean South Carolina still flies a small confederate flag on top their capital dome. I don't dislike all the people in the South I just think some of them live in the past. I have been to Virginia, Georgia, and Florida. I don't mind visiting but would never ever move there. I respect the Dems/independents that live there. I couldn't take it very long. The West seems visually beautiful but miles and miles of flatness or mountains. I don't know...I would miss New England and being a Yankee I guess. I would miss what little we have left of the 4 seasons. I would miss being able to drive across the state like its nothing (being small has its advantages). I would miss the rolling green hills and apple orchards. Yeah, its crowded, over priced, fast paced, and loud in Hartford, Boston, and NYC but exciting too. The only bad thing with being from CT is we have Joeidiot as our Senator. Canada is awfully close to us but don't they still believe in the English monarchy? Maybe the U.S. is simply too big. Split it into 3 countries? East, West, South? Is that crazy?

[Clark2008]

42. And, see.. that's the way we Southerners feel.

We don't WANT to move up North. Not even us Democrats. We LIKE it here. Our four seasons - the longest being Spring and Fall when it's moderate. We LIKE our kudzo and cicadas and crickets. We LIKE South Eastern Conference football and homegrown tomatoes and snap beans. We LIKE sweet iced tea on a hot summer day and swatting mosquitos with fans.

We don't WANT to move up there to create a whole other country - or attach ourselves to Canada. But there are 42 to 47 percent of us down here who DON'T LIKE George W. Bush and the christo-facists, so we shouldn't be punished for that.

[MistressOverdone]

106. I love the South

and I have flowers in my garden right now, and brocolli and cabbage and greens. It has been in the 60's all week long. But pity me, I had to settle for Mayo Clinic for a recent surgery. Lousy, backwards South!

[roamer65]

35. Secession talk is common in American history.

Google "Hartford Convention 1814". You will find another war that almost brought about the breakup of the United States.

[Blue_In_AK]

44. I've been begging the Canadians on DU to adopt Alaska

for months now.

[roamer65]

50. We'll just sell you back to Russia.

Just Kidding!!!

[Clark2008]

52. My husband could get a job tranlating English into Russian for them!

LOL! That was a joke.

But, hubby does speak fluent Russian. ;)

[Blue_In_AK]

58. My grandson is in a Russian immersion program

at his school. He's in second grade now and has been doing it since kindergarten. Half the day is conducted 100 percent in Russian. He's becoming quite fluent himself. :)

My comments about becoming part of Canada have nothing to do with dissing the South, by the way. It just seems like we here have much more in common with the Yukon and Northwest Territories than say Florida, for instance. :) I think the South has a lot of charm, I just wouldn't want to live there again, which is a good thing because if we all lived in the same place, it would get mighty crowded. :pals:

[Clark2008]

60. I'd say after living in Alaska, you'd find Wyoming crowded!

LOL!!

:7

P.S. I can also vouch for the fact that Tennessee doesn't have much in common with parts of Florida, either, and we're just one state away. :rofl: (And Pats, if you drop in, you know I love you crazy Floridians).

[Blue_In_AK]

77. I like Tennessee.

We visited some good online friends in Memphis in 2004 and had a great time there.

Yeah, I guess I would feel crowded in Wyoming. Wyoming has about 5.2 people per square mile; Alaska has 1 person per square mile. That's just the way I like it. :)

[barb162]

53. This is too far out... like on the planet Jupiter

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

61. Don't Be Offended By My Saying This Please, But That's Gotta Be One Of The Dumbest Articles I've

ever read on DU. Whoever the author of it is really needs some help with reality.

[Clark2008]

62. LOL. Thank you.

:hug:

[Nevernose]

63. Just freaking bizarre.

State with the highest KKK membership? Wisconsin.

State that gave us Reagan and Nixon? California.

State where the local Nazis decided to march through a Jewish neighborhood? Illinois.

State with the highest percentage of segregated public schools? Massachusetts.

State that most recently tried and ban the teaching of evolution? Pennsylvania.

States with the fastest growing number of Evangelical "Christians?" All in the liberal north or west.

I could go on. For a quite a while. But I won't. Check LBN on just about any day to find out how wonderful the North is. The difference is in what Malcolm X called "honesty."

The South is far from perfect, but an article like this is simply fantastic, and quite unrealistic. I know that those in the North would like to feel superior, but that's not an honest feeling. Are y'all really that happy to see Pataki as governor in New York state, or Bloomberg as mayor in the City? Clean the North's house first.

Try embracing the places we're losing instead of dismissing them. Dismissal hasn't worked so well yet, has it?

[Clark2008]

65. Hadn't thought about it, but...

California and New York, the two states seen as the most liberal, both have Republican governors, while Tennessee and Virigia both have Democratic governors.

Interesting.

[roamer65]

69. New York has a democratic governor, Eliot Spitzer.

... and the Gropenator had to become a RINO to win.

[Clark2008]

84. My bad.

I was thinking pre-November.

[Swamp Rat]

80. Dismissal

That's what happened to us in New Orleans.

[Ksec]

64. I wouldnt mind being annexed into Canada.

The people in the US have become really uninformed , or just plain stupid .
Imagine voting bush into office...TWICE ! Thats mind boggling and it tells me this country no longer shares my view of what this country is about. Maybe in a few decades , once the insanity causes a major disaster, the people will wake up to what theyre electing but it wont happen until a catastrophe takes place.
Maybe Im in a pissy mood tonight.

[Clark2008]

67. True - but that's true all over and not just in the red states. eom

[Warren DeMontague]

66. Really, California should be its own nation. 33 million people, 8th largest economy in the world.

Aside from the fact that it's ludicrous that our residents control the same 1/50th slice of the US Senate as, say, the 400,000 people in Wyoming...

But beyond that, this article is silly.

[roamer65]

68. It's actually a very accurate assessment.

Especially with the discussion of US federalist sentiment in New England during the War of 1812. Knowledge of Canadian politics and history is required for this article. Perhaps some people don't like the Canadians meddling into our internal politics? Now we know what it feels like...hehehe.

[roamer65]

75. Biggest reason for joining the Canadian confederation.

5% Beer!:toast:

[TX-RAT]

96. Add Crown Royal and 40 Creek to that list.

Love those Canadian whisky's.

[SanCristobal]

79. There was a mildy ammusing Xbox game

about the US fighting the Civil War again today. I think it was called Shattered Union. It had a pretty funny into video featuring a Bush/Clinton combo as the bad president whose shoddy election lead to civil war.

[JCMach1]

81. The divide runs though ALMOST every state

Red vs. Blue is BS meant to divide us.

[Clark2008]

86. And that's even an old map, now.

Tennessee turned more blue during the 2006 elections. Not enough to get Ford Jr. in, but certainly more blue than that graphic.

I'm sure it happened in other Southern and mid-Westerns states as well.

[JCMach1]

87. Exactly, that was the 2004 map with all of the vote manipulation

turned on...

[onenote]

89. and don't forget Virginia

let's see: only three of 11 House members are Democrats: must be red, so let's chuck it out.
but wait: its current and most recent past governor are Democrats: move it to Canada.
Or maybe: its got one Repub Senator and One Democratic Senator: Maybe the whole idea is stupid as a rock

[LynnTheDem]

82. For several years several US states have spoken w Canada

about possiblities of leaving the US & joining with Canada.

[onenote]

88. link?

[JNelson6563]

90. Gosh all the hatred! Is this an Edwards thread??

Oh no, wait. I see the nastiness coming equally from both sides (well maybe a bit more from the "victims'" side), so it's not an Edwards' thread. My bad.

Julie

[depakid]

91. Oh Canada, we in Oregon and Washington beseech thee

Please take us!

We promise to say "eh" a lot and we won't complain about the metric system!

As an added plus, we pay more in taxes to the federal government than we get back in return. A lot more.

[MistressOverdone]

112. That is just so sad

coming from a member of the Democratic Party. So sad.

And I know where it will be making headlines by nightfall.

[pampango]

93. If anything, they should annex the coasts to Canada and leave

the interior alone. Both coasts have proven to be more liberal than the Midwest and South.

[Strawman]

98. This author underestimates the power national attachment

I don't think there is a snowball's chance in hell this will happen.

[depakid]

104. By 2020 (which the author cites as a key date)

Things in the US are going to be radically different that they are today.

Expensive energy changes everything- and places like the South are going to suffer much more than other parts of the nation, due to lack of land use planning, poor to non-existent public transportation, a proliferation of weapons, fundamentalism and a LOT of formerly middle class people with entitlements and holding grudges. I sure wouldn't want to be there then.

Northern states will fare much better- based in no small part to their prevailing values, foresight and higher social capital- and that's going create a lot friction. People here in Oregon already see the policies coming out of southern states- and the representatives that they choose as corrupt and archaic, impediments to progress and sustainability. Imagine what that's going to look like 13 years from now in a post peak oil world.

[Strawman]

107. 13 years from now?

Not a chance. Our standard of living will erode the same way it always has, bit by bit. Slow enough for people to accept it.

[depakid]

108. I reckon not

Given the insane fiscal, trade, monetary and deregulatory policies that the Republicans (along with some Democratic enablers) have pursued over the past 12 years, the chances are that an economic collapse will be acute, happening in a time frame similar to the great depression.

Couple that with soaring energy and transportation costs and other shortages- 13 years from now... I don't even like to think about it.

As it is, when I visit my family in the south, I feel like I'm in a different country. Oddly enough, I don't feel that way in Canada- except maybe for the colorful money and the road signs. The people in British Columbia share regional Northwest values and economic interests, so much so that it's hard to tell us apart.

Not so in Carolina, Georgia or Tennessee. Every time I go there, I see and hear things that just make my jaw drop- often from otherwise educated people.

[MistressOverdone]

110. Ah, I can feel the love.

I grew up in a northern state and was afraid for my life most of my childhood. One night senior year I was up typing a paper and a truck ful of hoods shot into the living room. And the racial discord in nearby Plainfield was terrifying. I didn't encounter much foresight and higher social capital in my neighborhood, and it sure isn't there now.

I think you would be surprised at the unity of the southern population in a community, and that includes both major races. We work together in our jobs and our numbers are split 50/50 where I am and there is a genuine caring for each other. I never knew the names of half the people on my street growing up in the NY area while here, my very racially mixed street, we all know each other and are there for each other. Sure we have cultural differences, but we are learning to celebrate them. I think perhaps you really haven't spent much quality time in the south. We really aren't all Ricky Bobby, although he was basically a nice guy.

[depakid]

121. Some maps drawn from data

Obviously, these are in the aggregate, and don't take into account variations among indivdual communities. Still, they're useful in plotting general tendencies.

Note the changes as one draws nearer to the Canadian border (and the obvious anomaly in Nevada).















http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/25/6/1825848.pdf

[MistressOverdone]

127. That is very interesting data

and I thank you for it. I see you have a point. All I have is my personal experience, and I know that it was far healthier in all ways for my kids here in the south (we are not in a particularly rural area) than my life was in the metropolitan Northeast. And as a teaqcher I know for certain the schools are better in this area. That includes quality of teachers, teaching, buildings, activities, etc. My schools up north were literally crumbling and local corruption didn't help.

But really, I'm not trying to say the South is better than the north. We have our problems. But people who live up north often think the South is lynch mobs and "coloreds only" water fountains. I have had more black bosses than white, and the black culture is an integral part of our lives. There is enormous tolerance in my community and we also have a high level of non-Americans because of local universities and science facilities.

Wherever you go...there you are.

[Javaman]

100. All empires fall eventually. Just a fact.

The bigger the empire that more massive the effect it will have upon the world. And since the worlds currency is currently based upon our fiat economy, it wont be pretty.

the dark age that follows the collapse of the US will be epic.

[MilesColtrane]

109. Me and my red state liberal friends love to complain about the knuckle dragging,

fundamentalist, greed headed, Republicans in the South, because we live amongst them.

That makes us extra touchy when some outsider starts up about them, and then lumps us in with them.

I suppose the secessionists would like to split everything 50/50 in the divorce settlement?

Would Canada welcome you with open arms if you took half the nukes and military with you?

Would you feel comfortable knowing there was a nuclear nation on your southern border made up of people intent on fulfilling the GOP's vision of the world with almost no internal political resistance?

[depakid]

122. "...Would you feel comfortable knowing"

Recognizing that most of this is tongue in cheek...

The Trident Submarine base is located in Bangor, Washington.

LOL. Right out of the plot of Callenbach's Ecotopia.



Of course, it could be worse- they could have based them in Mobile!

[MilesColtrane]

125. Yep, but I bet those Tridents would look extra spiffy...

with mudflaps on the back.

[Jennicut]

113. Although I love New England we are different than Canada

We like football here (Go Patriots! Hope you guys win Sunday!), not hockey. And I love our constitution when it is not being abused. Canada is a nice country, but its not MY country. I refuse to give up on the U.S. I don't want to lose the south. I do feel very different from Southerners but not superior. We can be cold and rude up here somtimes. I think there is blue/red in every state, some are just leaning a little more one way than the other. Look at the Iraq war. The majority of Americans dissaprove of it. Maybe we are all more alike than we think. I feel ultra conservatives/ neocons tried to divide people so they could rule over them easier. Religion, abortion rights, science, terrorism has all been twisted under their leadership. Its their way or you are labeled as being an enemy of the U.S., a baby killer, against God, etc. We need to come together and figure out how to put this country back together.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

117. Could Washington be Baja British Colombia....pleeeaase?

Or, should that be "eh"?

[taught_me_patience]

118. I wouldn't mind if California left the union.

Hawaii should also be a sovereign nation. The United States took it in an illegal overthrow.

[Dover]

124. Yeah, I'm sure the Canadians are just tickled PINK at the thought.

and would welcome us with open arms.....HA!



The U.S. has become the scurge of the world. An ugly institutional green slime...

[Evoman]

126. Canada is having enough problems keeping itself together.

The last thing we need is more provinces.

[terrya]

128. Hell, this Illinoisan wouldn't mind a union with Canada.

Not one damn bit.

Let's see....national health insurance. Avoiding this unfortunate habit of starting wars we have no business being in. Virtual full equality for GLBT people. A concern about the environment which this current administration in the United States seems not to have (Canada did, after all, sign on to the Kyoto Protocol)

[aikoaiko]

129. Having lived as a liberal in NJ, AZ, MA, NH, and GA for significant periods of my life

...the south can learn a lot from the north, the west from east, and any other combination. The artificial division between red state/blue state or north and south sickens me. People who vote left and right are throughout our great country.




Besides, its more likey CAN will split up than the US.