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Please help me re: a response about Ted Haggard-a law professor

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jhrobbins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:08 PM
Original message
Please help me re: a response about Ted Haggard-a law professor
said my tone responding to his defense of TH was angry and passionate. The story:

Robert Miller (assistant Professor of Law @ Villanova) writes (re Ted Haggard\):
‘A man is not a hypocrite because he violates a moral norm in which he sincerely believes.’

(now me)How convenient - especially now that Ted Haggard is in such a pickle, but also it is just a lot of hooey. The definition of hypocrisy is - an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction. A classic example of a hypocritical act is to denounce another for carrying out some action whilst carrying out the same action oneself.

This is the exact model of Ted Haggard’s actions and apparently his beliefs as well. While he was railing against gays and lesbians that would seek to legitimize their relationships, he was, in fact, violating his own vows of commitment and with a gay man to boot. This is the absolute height of hypocrisy. His intention is paramount here and apparently his intention was to break his marriage vows and have sex with a man. No amount of specious rationalization by Mr. Miller can change this. I am sorry \(not a lot though\) that Mr. Haggard ‘struggled with his dark and impure’ side, but lots and lots of people do this all the time and do not succumb and very few of these people are in the position of moral icon as Mr. Haggard. Shame on him for doing it and shame on him for lying about it afterwards. And shame on Mr. Miller for trying to justify it.

Below is the link to Professor Miller’s article to which I responded with the post above.

http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=526

This is Professor’s email response to my criticism of his article (sorry this is so long):

Dear Mr. Robbins:

The editors of First Things have forwarded to me your email below. I have a few thoughts in response.
1. I never attempted to “justify” Ted Haggard’s behavior. On the contrary, I said very clearly that, since it involves various forms of sexual immorality, it was gravely wrong. My point concerned whether, in addition to sexual immorality, Haggard’s wrongdoing included that particular form of moral wrongdoing called hypocrisy.
2. Your definition of hypocrisy (“an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction”) is not, I think, factually correct. The definition of “hypocrite” given in the Oxford English Dictionary, for example, is "one who falsely professes to be virtuously or religiously inclined; one who pretends to have feelings or beliefs of a higher order than his real ones." Note that the emphasis is on lying about inclinations, feelings or beliefs, or, I think more properly, values. Hypocrisy is not a divergence between professed values and conduct but between professed values and actual values. Hence, as I said in the post, “The hypocrite pretends to accept and live by one set of values when, in fact, he accepts and lives by quite different ones… This species of lying is hypocrisy.” Your definition of hypocrisy would make all lying hypocrisy, which cannot be the case. Hypocrisy is a very special kind of lying. It’s lying about what your values are.
3. So did Haggard lie about his values? For example, he said that he thought adultery was wrong, but did he really believe this? It seems clear to me that we cannot answer this question merely by knowing that the man has in fact committed adultery, for people who sincerely hold moral values sometimes act contrary to them. For example, we believe we should be patient with children, but we all sometimes lose our patience and become angry with our children. Does this make us hypocrites? No, because we sincerely believe in the value at issue; it’s just that we don’t always live up to it. Thus St. Paul can say, I do the evil I do not intend and I don’t do the good that I intend to do. This kind of disconnect between one’s sincerely held values and one’s ability to live up to those values is notoriously common in connection with the sins of the flesh. Alcoholics, porn-addicts, gluttons—all these people may sincerely want to avoid the vices to which they’re liable and yet find themselves falling into them again and again. Unless you’re a much better man than I am, I’m sure you can think of examples from your own life in which you’ve failed to live up to values you sincerely believe in. Such people are not hypocrites; they’re sinners, but their sins are common ones—lust, anger, impatience, gluttony, etc.—not that special kind of deliberate, intellectual sin called hypocrisy.
4. The only basis in the public record for thinking that Haggard did not sincerely believe the values he taught is that he often violated those values in serious ways. But since it’s easy to see how a man with certain weaknesses of the flesh can sincerely believe in good moral values and yet nonetheless often violate them, there is no reason to conclude that Haggard was lying about this values. It’s just as easy to believe that he is weak; indeed, it’s by far the more likely scenario. Moreover, we should not impute the additional form of wrongdoing to Haggard without convincing reasons to do so. If there is a more charitable explanation that is even more reasonable—that he’s weak, not hypocritical—surely in charity we should adopt the more charitable view.

5. You might want to moderate your tone. It’s unseemly to be so passionate and angry about what is, from every angle, a great tragedy, including for many innocent third parties, like Haggard’s wife and children.

I am going to respond – any suggestions? Was my tone too passionate and/or angry? (I mean, after all, Haggard has been ranting about my ability to ‘marry’ my partner of 26 years apparently thought it was ‘dark and ‘impure’ and this is a tragedy for Mr. Haggard.

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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's very seemly to be angry and passionate about one
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 01:13 PM by Warpy
who seeks to curtail the rights of others to do exactly the same thing he is doing.

It IS personal, Professor, and anyone who apologizes for these "do as I say, not as I do" hypocrites of the religious right is as guilty as they are.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Your law "professor" isn't part of the reality-based community
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=hypocrite

hypocrite - a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he or she does not hold in order to conceal his or her real feelings or motives
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jdadd Donating Member (950 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. Mumbo....Jumbo
Mumbo Jumbo Mumbo Jumbo Mumbo Jumbo.....Mumbo.....Jumbo:crazy:
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Your tone was not wrong
In fact, when I first read your reply, I thought this was what you'd written after you'd cooled down, as a second response to this professor. In the professor's reply, he's splitting hairs when he tries to define "hypocrite" by saying it can only be applied to someone's beliefs. I don't think that was what Jesus was talking about when he spoke with scorn about the actions of hypocrites who prayed loudly for display so that others would think them pius. Your definition of the term was more accurate, and you used it to frame your reasons for criticism.

Personally, I feel that there's an "action test" that one can take when it comes to values--you can tell what you truly value by your actions. An alcoholic can say they value sobriety, but if their actions are to go out driving while drunk and never going to an AA meeting or checking into a rehab clinic, can you honestly say that they do value sobriety? If a man values marriage as a sacred commitment, he doesn't cheat on his wife, with anybody, any time. If he does, he needs to re-examine his values, because they aren't what he says they are. Anyone who has been in a relationship with a cheating spouse (as my mother was with my father)can tell you that talk is cheap-actions mean something.
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. I failed to notice anger in your remarks. As for passion, perhaps
Dr. Miller would have had MLK moderate his remarks. It is, at best, unseemly to not be passionate about basic human rights.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. That's a lot of text dedicated to semantics.
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 01:26 PM by Buzz Clik
I say let the good perfesser have his day -- Haggard is not a hypocrite. Regardless, he helped win the day for the Dems in 2006 with his behavior.

In my opinion, Asst. Professor Miller is filling his day splitting the very fine line that separates a hypocrite from one who is morally weak. Miller is suggesting that Haggard may not be a hypocrite because he may believe that his behavior was wrong but couldn't help himself. I suppose that's possible, but we can only guess if it's true.

This is reminiscent of arguments of whether Bush lied about WMD and al Qaida in Iraq -- "he only lied if he said something he knew to be untrue." It boils down to Bush being either a liar or completely uninformed; neither are desirable qualities in a president.

Likewise, Haggard being so weak and so lacking in self-control that he cannot keep himself away from a male prostitute (in contrast to being a hypocrite) still disqualifies him as a moral leader. Trying to guess his inner motivations is a fool's game, and Dr. Miller is up for it.


LATE ADDITION: Miller's comment about your tone is a distraction. He is trying to get you to be defensive about your position. I find it amusing that Assistant Professor Miller wrote a few hundred words in rebutting you and then accused you of being too passionate about the subject. Seems a bit inconsistent ... or even hypocritical. ;)
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swimboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. You were entirely appropriately angry and passionate.
There is no need for you to deny that you were angry and passionate. There is nothing wrong with either of those. He just didn't enjoy being on the receiving end.

He is really struggling to make his case. Here's my take: Yes, Haggard could have been merely a sinner. Yes, Haggard could have been merely weak. But when I think of a person who truly believes in his values and is honest about how his own behaviour fails to measure up to them, I would expect to see in that religious and honest person a measure what I will call HUMILITY. And I just didn't see that. In fact, I see a great deal of arrogance. Regardless of the sincerity of his belief in moral standards, he failed to realise that he was no longer in a position to exhort or serve as an example to others. He loved his position and influence more. One may quibble on the exact definition of hypocrisy, but I definitely see it here.

Please, you go on being angry and passionate. That is what spurs us to act for change.
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
8. K&R... it's a good rant: go with it, jhrobbins... where is equality today? where is...
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Nickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. He's really splitting hairs.
"Hypocrisy is not a divergence between professed values and conduct but between professed values and actual values."

Wouldn't your actual values dictate your conduct? How can one have conduct seperate from their own values?

"The only basis in the public record for thinking that Haggard did not sincerely believe the values he taught is that he often violated those values in serious ways..."

Again, do actions count for nothing? What kind of moral disconnect does someone have to have to go against their own value system time and time again?

"It’s just as easy to believe that he is weak; indeed, it’s by far the more likely scenario."

Classic RW tactic, especially about gay people. They aren't gay because they just are, they're gay because they were weak. Therefore, they can choose to not be gay. Helps to avoid any accountability for one's actions and dodge the charge of being a hypocrite.

And No, I don't think you were unseemly at all. You'd be unseemly if you started to call him names or other invectives. He's trying to control the debate by trying to pat you on the head and tell you to be a good little child while he schools you.
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keopeli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. Good on you for writing; good on him for responding.
Let me say that I agree with you - Ted Haggard was and is a hypocrite.

Couching your comments with emotional rhetoric is not usually an effective means of deliberating an issue. Compared to this man's writing, your language was emotive and passionate, perhaps even angry (given your end comments on "shame"). I understand your emotional response. If you want to temper that emotion in your next writing, consider omitting sentences like "How convenient - especially now that Ted Haggard is in such a pickle, but also it is just a lot of hooey." This gives no credence to your position. Simply eliminate them and let the reader figure out the obvious holes from the facts you present.

As a suggestion, perhaps you would consider focusing on the fact that Ted Haggard 1) was in a position of moral and ethical leadership and 2) was engaging in acts of homosexuality (to which he was opposed ethically) for at least several years, if not his entire life (by his own admission). This indicates a complete failure to recognize his wrong-doing (according to his own preaching) and to correct his behavior. It was behavior such as this that Christ condemned as hypocritical when he called out the Pharisees and Sadducees. The long-term pattern of practicing behavior in complete disagreement with publicly held principles is a model for hypocrisy.

Good luck and peace!
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
11. Here's the Merriam - Webster on-line definition.
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 01:30 PM by Sentinel Chicken
hypocrite
One entry found for hypocrite.


Main Entry: hyp·o·crite
Pronunciation: 'hi-p&-"krit
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ypocrite, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokritEs actor, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
- hypocrite adjective


http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/hypocrite

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stonecoldsober Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Good job SC
I would simply reply with that definition. And I would ask that he not get angry or act unseemly because you handed his asshat to him.
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specimenfred1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
12. Say, "Please be civil or fck yourself"
ala Dickless Chumley on the floor of the Senate.
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quiet.american Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
13. I cannot believe what an apologist this guy is. Good on you for calling him out.
"A great tragedy for Haggard's wife and children"? Indeed. But who is 100% responsible for the tragedy? Haggard. No one else but.

Honestly, I would not waste my time on this Kool-Aid drinker. It's a sure bet he won't reply to a second response from you, too.

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jhrobbins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. You're absolutely right-my first inclination was to fire off a retort...
but I'm not going to now. It will most likely make me mad if he responds and mad if he doesn't. Thanks for the sage advice.
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quiet.american Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Glad to be of help. Cheers. n/t
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
15. As I understand it, Haggard was not a weak man succumbing to
transitory temptations when they presented themselves (using the professor's scenario), but did in fact arrange his assignations days, weeks, even months in advance. In a murder trial such is the difference between first degree and 2nd degree murder - one being premeditation, therefore willful and deliberate, and the other being succumbing to a momentary impulse.

The difference between 'hypocrisy' and 'weakness'.

(Note: I am not comparing what he did with murder, only the part that intent played in what he did.)
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. That sounds right to me - it's Haggard's repeated behaviour
that does turn it into 'hypocrisy'. He was doing it, I understand, over a period of time - and if you think your behaviour is wrong, then you don't preach, literally, against it; you try to change it - unless you are a hypocrite.
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bmbmd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
16. I understand what he is saying.
Being a moral failure does not make one a hypocrite. Being a moral failure just makes one a moral failure-a sinner, if you will. I'm sure that Haggard believes wholeheartedly in what he preaches, he is just unable to conform his own life to the image he is selling. His career is ruined, his reputation is dashed, but I bet he learns something from this experience. The apostle Paul, who once lamented that "I do not understand why I do the things I hate" also reports that a certain "teacher" from Corinth had been "handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit might be saved". I wish Haggard well-I hope he learns from this experience and becomes a better, more tolerant, less judgemental man for it.
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. If it were one of Haggard's flock then you could make that ...
argument. When you stand before the congregation as it's leader, making your living from the donations of the faithful and week after week condemn the behavior that you secretly engage in. You cross the line from being a moral weakling to being a charlatan a liar and hypocrite.
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bmbmd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. He doesn't have a flock any more.
Now, he's like me-fully dependent upon grace. The lesson that Christ taught is one of sinners in a fallen hopeless condition redeemed by grace. Our own "righteousness" is but a bunch of filthy rags, whether we are Jerry Falwell or Carla Fay Tucker. Carla learned that lesson (perhaps that is why she had to die?) JF has not. I guess we will have to see what kind of lessons Haggard learns. If he climbs right back on his high horse like Jimmy Swaggart and Robert Tilton, I'll be inclined to agree with you-then I'll call him a hypocrite.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. Bingo
It's that simple.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
17. I've got a serious problem with the professor's response
In his response, he writes "since involves various forms of sexual immorality, it was gravely wrong."

Um, it sounds like he is a homophobe who thinks that Haggard's behavior was wrong partly because he was having sex with another man. As a lesbian, I find that deeply offensive and it tends to make me completely uninterested in the rest of the assistant professor's silly arguments.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
19. I would guess that Professor Miller is a fundamentalist Christian as indicated by his
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 02:38 PM by sinkingfeeling
stress of 'sexual immorality' and his argument that Haggard is merely a 'sinner'. Being just a sinner is easy to correct: Repent and claim forgiveness from Christ. This is an argument that Ted Haggard should be 'forgiven' for his immorality and he should retain his position of moral authority over others.

Edited for spelling.
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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
20. I would "check out" his claim of how the Oxford English Dictionary
defines "hypocrisy". This is what I found at the online "Compact Oxford English Dictionary". (You need to be a subscriber to access the larger version of their dictionary.) The Professor's whole 'argument' is based on the definition he claims is from Oxford. Personally, I would verify it first that it is correct.

hypocrisy

• noun (pl. hypocrisies) the practice of claiming to have higher standards or beliefs than is the case.

— ORIGIN Greek hupokrisis ‘acting of a theatrical part’.


http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/hypocrisy?view=uk

-----------

Also here: http://www.askoxford.com/results/?view=searchresults&freesearch=hypocrisy&branch=&textsearchtype=exact

there are some links to what Shakespeare, Euripides, Milton, the Bible, et al have to say about hypocrisy. Perhaps it will give you some "ammo" for your return e-mail.

Good Luck! :-)



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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Yes, what he says is the main OED definition
but it does add "hence generally, a dissembler, pretender".
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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Thank you for verifying that
It is appreciated. :-)
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
21. How does he determine the likelihood
of one scenario versus another? He thinks his description is more likely, but this is based upon no evidence. Furthermore, he is wrong when he says we have no evidence to support a less charitable interpretation of Haggard's actions. It is quite common in some circles to conclude that gay haters are closet cases, and twisted, sick ones at that. Given the Haggard's own record of opposition to equality for gay Americans, this does not qualify him as a person of goodwill--i.e., he would impose moral restrictions on others that he would not comply with himself, and these others would only be people who were honestly gay, not closeted people. Haggard proposed punishing the honest while ignoring the dishonest--that's the very definition of injustice.

There's also a question of degree. An antidrug crusader who has a relapse isn't a hypocrite, if he checks himself into rehab. Yet a homophobe who attacks gays publicly while having sex with men in private, or someone like Rush, who used painkillers for years until they made him deaf, is another thing entirely.

Unseemly according to whom? According to the standards of academic discourse? Well, that would depend upon the journal in question. According to the standards of contemporary political discourse, the tone of which has been set by Haggard and his Republican ilk, your response is moderate. You are, after all an innocent third party, just like folks in Haggard's congregation, because you must bear the brunt of the hatemongering of Haggard and others.
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