Braced by a freeper at my local American Legion.

[11 Bravo]

I actually kind of enjoy the Legion, cheap beer, decent burgers, and guys I share a bond with. As a rule, the Nam vets, and the WWII and Korea vets are on opposite sides of the fence politically, but we respect each other. I hope last night didn't change that. We were watching the USC-UCLA game and having a few beers, when a regular showed up with his out-of-town brother-in-law. During the course of the evening, I learned that the brother-in-law had spent the Korean War at Fort Dix. Fine, you take the oath, and you go where they send you. Later on, the talk turned to the troops in Iraq, and I commented on how shameful our treatment of returning vets has been so far (benefit cuts, cuts in VA assistance, charging wounded troops for lost or combat-damaged gear, etc.). The Fort Dix vet launched into a tirade, claiming that ANY dissent undermines the war on terror, today's troops are "soft", and that George Bush has been a brilliant war-time president, as evidenced by the fact that "We haven't been hit since 9/11." If he had stopped then, I would have let it go. But he had to take it one step further, trotting out the old bromide that everyone should stop comlaining because "War is Hell." Without thinking I responded, "Yeah, but COMBAT is a mother-fucker, and a REMF wouldn't know about that." He was (understandably) insulted, and the pair left soon after. I hope I didn't burn any bridges, but I am becoming less and less tolerant of the "Hail Bush", and "Dissent is un-American" crowd.

[NMDemDist2]

1. REMF?? is that Rear Echelon MoFo?

and i'm glad the vets are speaking up

:yourock:

[TahitiNut]

6. REMFs - shining shoes (and trouser seats) in defense of America

:shrug:

[GreenZoneLT]

73. Current usage is Fobbit

Since there IS no rear, the Iraq equivalent of REMF is someone who never leaves the Forward Operating Base (FOB). We fobbits get mortared and rocketed a bit, but unlike the guys who go on patrols, we hardly ever get a nick.

[trof]

76. Fobbit. Funny. And welcome to DU.

I take it you are where your screen name implies?
Keep your head down, man.
:thumbsup:

[Nickster]

2. Sounds like you were right on target. It's easy to talk about how hard war is when

you don't know the first thing about it. Usually the ones that know something about it are the last ones to talk about it.

[sarge43]

22. ....

"If you were there, I don't have to explain. If you weren't, you won't understand."

[patrice]

32. Oh, but there are those of us who CAN imagine and we are Horrified!!!

War is Anti-Family.

We need OUR Soldiers here to implement Homeland Security.

[sarge43]

39. Oh, many can imagine.

That was a quote from an old swab who somehow survived the Murmansk Run, WWII. It's just that a real combat vet knows s/he can't describe the horror to anyone who hasn't been there. I always turn on my crap detector whenever someone starts beating his chest about his 'heroics'.

[patrice]

40. I am interested in the ways that people are similar.

We, sometimes, make too much of the differences.

[redwitch]

62. my dad was just about to graduate from King's Point

when they gave up on the Murmansk run. He was just a youngun-joined the academy at 17. He was sure he would die on that run. Didn't they lose somewhere along the lines of 8 out of 10 Liberty ships?

[sarge43]

65. I don't know the exact stats; they were terrible.

The sailing conditions alone were hideous. Anyone who speaks lightly of war deserves a permanent place in downtown business section of hell.

[redwitch]

66. My dad got seasick in the North Atlantic.

I think he had lots of company!

[sarge43]

67. I'm sure he did.

In his book Bass Ring, Bill Mauldin writes about the run up to the invasion of North Africa. He said most of the soldiers and many of the sailors were sea sick and thanks to the vomit on the decks of the heads they became, because of the ship's heaving and tossing, the skating rinks of hell.

[redwitch]

71. yuck.

I am happy to have missed out on that experience!

[IndyOp]

3. Thank you. Silence is always perceived as agreement.

I think we, as a nation, need to get over our absurd rules of 'social etiquette' when it comes to politics. I think most people around the world have a much healthier, critical, even cynical understanding of government and politicians. Starting from that critical place it allows citizens to have meaningful conversations about government faults - and there are always faults. Responsible people face problems and work to solve them. Instead we have a nation of people addicted to the rush of feelings that accompany "patriotism" who live in denial.

Your comments were a little personal - in terms of being directed at the nature of his service - but that *is* part of why/how he walks with ridiculous swagger.

[patrice]

34. Skinnerian Behaviorism applied to vast informational assets.

Biological, behavioral, stimulus-response models applied to practically "infinite" behavioral data.

[tinfoil tiaras]

4. Yay! We need more vets against the war!

I hate the "Sieg Hiel Bush" crowd too...and they're super prominent around here. I saw like 5 * stickers yesterday :puke: :puke:

[blue cat]

23. My W-loving sister

ask me to remove her W sticker from her SUV a few days ago. I asked her why she asked me, and she said because she thought that I would enjoy it more. She said she didn't want people looking at her and think she supported W anymore. Huge change for her, but I don't expect her husband to change.

[patrice]

25. Her husband: There are people who think the purpose of certain classes of

others is to serve "Us" first, to sacrifice themselves to __________________ (fill in the blank), because _____________ is the Real Reality and "we", i.e. YOU, make it so by DYING for ______________________, and not to do so dishonors those who have died for _____________ by making it "less real" and their lives, therefore, wasted, because nothing else matters but _________________.

Notice how circular all of this economic is. Is that what is called psychological/emotional "onanism"?

BTW: Fill in any of the blanks with memes derived from behaviorally descriptive stimulus-response statistics, i.e. information about anyone - there's lots of that available.

[whatelseisnew]

5. That was an essetial time for you to stand up to that kind of crap

thank you, it will not have been you that burned the bridge if it turns out that way.

[patrice]

27. Exactly.

[patrice]

58. Progressives do not burn bridges, because like Liberals, Progressives

Include and are interested in response Options.

Those who call themselves Conservatives exclude and, ergo, burn bridges in the name of ___________________, because the Excluded deserve their problems and those like me and my friends don't.

[Bigmack]

7. Why on earth...

would you go to the Legion? Cheap beer there is far too expensive for me... and burgers ain't good for your heart.

The Legion is this desert town in owned by RAMFs who never retreated... but they backspaced several times.

One of the Sub-Adjutant-Commodores found out I was a vet and asked me why I don't join in. I told him "Too much rightwing politics, and not enough real support for veterans." He was stunned.

Those clowns saw "Saving Private Ryan" too many times. That, and too much Limpballs/Hannutty/Savage makes 'em whacky.

Maybe I'm just not a "joiner", but I wouldn't be caught dead at either the Legion or the VFW.

[TahitiNut]

8. I find a better class of FReeper at my VFW.

Besides, the Viet Nam vets are a plurality there. :evilgrin:

http://vfw1669.org/

[exlrrp]

9. Tell em so they get it

I'm another 11b with paratrooper thrown in on top. I'm a Vietnam combat vet also. I still am in good shape, swim three miles aweek and work out. (I went back to Vietnam in '03, am going back again this coming year)

Basically what that means to me is that I don't have to take shit from anyone, espcially loudmouth conservative old vets. I tell them what I think fairly strong and still have enough of that crazy Vietnam Vet gleam in my eye that they shut up. Or we go outside. Or start inside.

But I don't hang out in American legion halls, I remember when I came back from the NAm and they were all telling me how the VIetnam vets lost the war wand we hadn't been in The Big One like they had. Fuck them! I went on 35 lrrp patrols, mostly along the Cambodian border--you can only get killed just so dead. Consider that as 35 mini-D Days

I'd rather hang out with hippies, its easier to get laid (ask me how I know this)

[Ex Lion Tamer]

13. Bless you!

I mean it.

[exlrrp]

17. See the pictures

I am proud of my Vietnam Service

http://www.hackworth.com/photo0022.html

But what I'm even more proud of is that I protested the war when I came back. Thats what my trip in '03 taught me, thats what I needed to go back to Vietnam to see.
I saw then in 67-68 that what that country needed was a long time of peace and I was right. Bush validated that for me when he went there (beat him by 3 years) not that I neede him to do it.

When I went back to Vietnam I was mighty glad I had protested the war to my fullest---it made it a lot easier to look the Vietnamese in the eye.

[patrice]

28. Viet Nam Vets are very important, because of the lesson they reiterate,

of what was learned in the Civil War, about what war does to the Grassroots, always the majority of a given population.


BTW: have you ever seen those stats that say WWII Vets spent an average, for all services, of 42 days in Combat, with some spending quite a bit longer and others quite a bit shorter than 42 days.

Viet Nam Vets spent an average of 120 days in Combat. And, of course, the Vets from BushCo's Private War/Invasion of Iraq (in which they tried to steal a whole country - forever), will have broken that stat. either pretty recently or soon.

[truedelphi]

45. I'd love to know where they got that 42 day figure - .

- it might show you how tough the War was.

326,000 landed on Normandy Beaches One third of that number killed or wounded.

So if dying immediately brings the factor down a bit - I am not sure what you'd prove.

More men were lost on June 6 - 8, 1944 than in all of Vietnam.

But in my mind what sets the person apart from the other is the actual experience of real
combat. Don't care if it was three days during the Battle of the Bulge or three heavy days of fighting in Nam - it changes your whole idea of reality.

During the years of discussion spent over Vietnam, the hardest hard liners were the folks
who were "prepped" for battle and never served. THe guys who may have been drafted say in March 1945 - and the closest they got to the action was a small time prisoner escape in Nuremburg in 1946.

Those guys were always waiting for the other shoe to fall - they seemed to be proving to themselves that they were tough soldiers by not budging an inch on the issue of us needing to stay in Vietnam.

[patrice]

59. I read that somewhere online about a year ago, I guess.

This is an interesting and quite accessible topic.

A "Normal Distribution", the Bell Curve, would show variations around the average with others' more and less combat experiences, depending upon how "combat" is defined.

[achtung_circus]

15. Your final comment,

is on a "need to know" basis.

But thank you for sharing with the class.

[patrice]

29. Hippies still believe in Free Love, but we're older now, so we've learned

to make it psychologically and emotionally free too, and longer lasting because it is more responsible, benefitting from what we've learned about what's real, from getting older.

[Cha]

48. Crack me up!

Thanks for your service! :patriot:

[whatelseisnew]

10. American Legion Chief Alters Line On Service (Morin Led Legion Attack On Kerry's 10/30 Iraq Comment)

American Legion Chief Alters Line On Service (Morin Led Legion Attack On Kerry's 10/30 Iraq Comment)

Edited on Sun Dec-03-06 10:58 AM by Mark E. Smith

Boston.com 12/03/06

When Paul A. Morin (sic), the national commander of the American Legion, sought election to the office
in August, he described himself in the lead sentence of his campaign biography as a "Vietnam veteran
of the US Army." Since he was elected Aug. 31, the Legion's website has featured the same description.
And when Morin testified before the House Veterans' Affairs Committee Sept. 20, US Representative
Steve Buyer, Republican of Indiana, introduced him as an Army veteran of Vietnam. Morin registered no
objection, according to the hearing transcript.

And three months ago, Morin said he hopes that servicemen returning from iraq will be treated better
than those who returned from Vietnam. "When we came home, life was a little different. We do not want
to see any veteran returning to what we did, so we'll be there welcoming them home with open arms,"
Morin said, according to a transcript of his interview with the Pentagon Channel, the Defense
Department's television network.

But the only place Morin ever returned from was Fort Dix, N.J. According to his military records, Morin
spent his entire two years of Army service, from 1972 to 1974, at that Army training base.

Additionally ... it was Morin who led the legion attack on John Kerry after his 10/30 Pasadena remarks.
"As a constituent of Sen. Kerry, I am disappointed," Morin said. "As leader of the American Legion, I am
outraged. A generation ago, Sen. Kerry slandered his comrades in Vietnam as Rapists and murderers. It
true then and his warped views of today's heroes isn't true now."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2639066&mesg_id=2639066

[whatelseisnew]

14. Is the National Commander of the American Legion a Lying REMF?

?

[exlrrp]

20. Its called : "wannabe"

There's a whole thing about "outing" people who claim to be Vietnam vets but arent. These people are called "wannabes"
just google: military wannabe hunters

[TahitiNut]

38. It was amazing to see so many of those crawl out of the woodwork beginning about 1980.

The occasional faux vet has been around forever but I recall doing my best to avoid being obvious as a Viet Nam veteran in the 70s ("getting it behind me") and then seeing this apparent explosion of vets in the 80s - enough to account for every guy who put boots on the ground two or three times over. Rambo bullshit. It bore about as much relationship to the reality of Nam as "The Green Berets" - surreal.

[catnhatnh]

41. Or "stolen honor" N/T

[knitter4democracy]

11. I'd bet the other guys there agree with you.

The ones who have seen combat know that what you were saying is true, whether they agree with the politics behind it or not. All the vets I know are deep-down furious at how the Iraq vets are getting treated once home. Anyone with an ounce of imagination would know that combat is unbelievably horrific and that we shouldn't send anyone into that without serious pause.

[patrice]

31. Abu Ghraib

.

[two gun sid]

12. Good work my friend...

I am glad you spoke up. I refuse to join any of the vet organizastions just because of the people you meet there. A guy I used to work with tried to get me to join the VFW but, after meeting several of the members I just couldn't do it.

Anyways, remember, you have the right to speak up to any blowhard who spouts that Rah-Rah bullshit. You are a combat vet and you know what war is about. Hell, it's your job to make sure people remember how tragic and costly war really is.

[countmyvote4real]

16. Bravo, 11 Bravo. n/t

[toshirajo]

18. I won't go to the VFW or AL

Because of the general macho demeanor of most of the guys. I left that stuff behind in high school. As you said you go where they post you, and I fixed oscilliscopes to keep us free. Nowadays, I get the insincere, almost saccarin statement "Thank you for your service" from civilian conservatives who never served in any capacity ... and then they discount my service because it didn't include hand to hand combat with tales of blood and gore. I can tell you about the time the Capt blew a gasket when some a&p guys dropped a tool through the front panel of a brand new scope, and I can recount numerous incidents where I almost got a sliver in my ass from the ancient stool I had in the lab (all the good stuff got sent to the fighting troops ya know). But, otherwise I have nothing to offer the drunken chest thumpers I encounter at the clubs of bottled intellegence that even begins to compare to theirs. I don't think even Harrison Ford could adequately portray these guys in a feature film of their combat experience. I wouldn't worry about Ft Dix. He's a chest thumper, and in his case probably some feelings of inadequacy because he has no sinue in his teeth. Those Army guys take things so personally.

[patrice]

30. I have known some of those guys. Alcohol IS a Problem.

Otherwise, they have some Assets, but drinking always dims the Tool. It's CNS depressant/killer.

[Hubert Flottz]

19. Those same assholes are at the Moose Club too!

FTA!

[blue cat]

21. It's OK

It's hard not to respond sometimes. Sometimes things have flown out of my mouth. You have just as much right to say what you think as well.

[patrice]

24. You did NOT go too far. The power of the truth is worth a certain amount of

discomfort. And those who will invoke it (without getting too far into personal pain-dealing motives) do ALL of us a very necessary service.

Thank You.

P.S. I have from 1 (Delta Force) to, I think, 5 assorted nephews and nieces and my husband's son possibly too, all on-the-line now for BushCo, and for a bunch of U.S. young people for whom Iraq does not figure in their career/life plans (they're going to Princeton instead), and others (Navy) for whom it does, now and into the future.

This thing is FAR from Decided by U.S.! Though the rest of the World seems to have decided a long time ago.

There ARE many people making a living off of this thing. And USING others who are just providing Uncle Sam's health care for their desperate families. The "Great U.S. Economy" has not been GOOD to everyone.

[HughMoran]

26. Good for you...

sometimes we have to consider what is right before what is proper - kudos.

[tabasco]

33. A lot of air force types I know are huge Bush supporters.

Same with a lot of the 90% of the military which is remfs.

They get to be "war vets" but never get shot at, so they love war.

I'm an 11B combat vet myself and I hate their guts. I don't have any bonds with these jerks.

I can't even stand to go to the Legion or the VFW. Assholes piss me off too much and I get undiplomatic.

[patrice]

36. The Machine War on Humans.

Killing from a distance is not Murder.

There is no such thing as Collateral Damage. All Damage is Good.

[Aviation Pro]

37. Got that right bro....

...most members of the Air Farce are prissy little balls of fat who talk a big game in the locker room but when it comes to lacing them up they go all pussy on you.

The exceptions are the PJs, the CCTs and the fighter pilots who do ground support.

[Poiuyt]

55. Hey! My father was an Air Force bomber pilot during WWII

He flew 72 missions and received the Distinguished Flying Cross

[Aviation Pro]

57. Those were different times....

....bomber pilots back then didn't have the luxury of flying above FL330 and had to contend with rapacious FWs and MEs. They truly were flying fortresses with 10 guns used to defend the ship. For the most part they were successful, but if the unit broke formation they became sitting ducks and were plucked out of the sky.

Therefore, WWII bomber pilots and their crews were the infantry of the sky.

[BrotherBuzz]

64. For the most part they were successful?

The Eighth Air Force (European theater) suffered over 26,000 fatal casualties, more than the entire Marine Corps. An additional 23,000 flyers survived being shot down only to become prisoners of war. In 1943 an airman's chance of surviving 25 missions - the number required rotate home - were about one in four.

[Aviation Pro]

70. Successful because they accomplished the mission....

eom.

[tabasco]

74. My uncle flew F-100s in Korea 50 missions.

He retired as a LTC and I am very proud of him.

He is also a huge Bush and Iraq war supporter. I am not proud of him for that.

I want to have a talk with him soon and tell him we STILL have not caught the people who planned the attack on NYC because we invaded the WRONG COUNTRY. Maybe the Army just taught me better tactics and strategy. Seems like a big intentional mistake to get on top of the oil. No more wars for corporate profits!!!!!! WTF?? Goddamn it - I guess these are the guys that think we should have NUKED VIETNAM. They should have just sent Bush over there to drink them to death.

[patrice]

61. I met some very ambitious people at the Fort Knox NCO academy.

[11 Bravo]

68. I've got nothing against the zoomies, but damned if you're not right...

about the preponderance of AF Repubs (at least among those whom I have met).

[tabasco]

72. Oh yeah I have good friends in the USAF.

But they have never been shot at, thank goodness.

I really hope not to offend anybody who honorably served their Nation in any capacity. But I spent ten years in the infantry and I know grunts have a much harder life than the average support troop. I was a remf my first 3 years too.

But thanks to Rumsfeld and his entire lack of understanding of such basic concepts as a secure line of supply and communication - a lot of support troops are being killed too. But not from the USAF.

I obviously have my silly interservice prejudices, but the Army & Marines do do the dirty work and do the bulk of the dying. Any wonder why so many more Bush lovers in blue?

According to icasualties, 2 USAF KIAs so far.

http://www.icasualties.org/oif/Service.aspx

[Aviation Pro]

35. Direct him to this post.....

...fucking REMFs are all gung-ho until the first incoming hits their air conditioned hooch and they curl up in a fetal ball.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2846966

[toshirajo]

43. I remember

our thermite grenade training. This big guy who sounded very experienced conducted our class. He clued us in that if the base was overrun, we were already dead. One of us was supposed to stay outside to hold off the enemy with our sidearm while the other dropped these grenades into all the gear and burned down the building / trailer / remote site ... whatever it was we were running. That was some sobering information, but his point was correct. We probably only had a few minutes to destroy our gear before we would be killed. We had to act fast. I was just so impressed with this guy, and he really did inspire me with what my priorities should be in that situation.

And then one day I found out he was just an MP. He rotated guard duty at the gate with the rest of the MPs. Somehow that diminished him to me, and I don't know why. Maybe I was hoping to get real, hands-on training from a real hands-on soldier hero, and he turned out to be just like me - a guy who enlisted and battled dust bunnies in the barracks before inspection. He became an MP, I became a tech. Hard to say what separated us, and what choices were made to put us where we were. But, that sense of disappointment was real. These days, after years of meeting combat vets, most of them turn out to be totally normal guys. Then I run across a chest thumping wack job, and I wonder why I ever romanticised these guys.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

42. Hey, with the revelation and scandal

that the current head of the Legion served at Ft. Dix instead of 'Nam-and that he didn't make this clear-shows that he, and everyone else in the organization-knows there is a big difference between service and combat. That anyone who was a vet is against maintaining the VA and all is simply sick.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. Whenever they say we haven't been attacked since 9/11,

I tell them yes we have. 2894 times http://www.icasualties.org/oif/

[Vektor]

46. The "We haven't been hit since 9/11" is the STUPIDEST argument

in favor of Bush I have ever heard, and I cannot fathom how anybody can be pea-brained enough to still use it.

It makes no sense.

Sure we haven't been hit since 9/11. BFD. THE SINGLE WORST TERRORIST ATTACK TO EVER TAKE PLACE ON AMERICAN SOIL HAPPENED ON BUSH'S WATCH!

I mean Jesus H. Christ, how many more times do we have to be hit while Bush is a sleep at the wheel for people to wake up and smell the damn coffee? Was one time not enough?

Yes, we haven't been attacked on Bush's watch since the last time... we were attacked on Bush's watch.

That's just terrific.

Thanks for putting that blowhard in his place, 11 Bravo. He needed it.

[Cha]

50. Good post AND we were attacked

after 9/11 happened on bush and condi's(national security adviser)WATCH.

Lethal ANTHRAX was sent through the USA mail starting on Sept 18, 2001 and continuing into October of that year..

Of course the terrorists were never found again on bush's watch.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks

The VFW REMFer sounds like he watches too much fauxsnews..among the misinformed Americans.

[Vektor]

51. Oh, yes - thank you, and good point.

The anthrax situation also happened on Bush's watch. And while I can see how something like that might be difficult to prevent, there hasn't been much headway in actually catching the real terrorists that are still running amok (the anthrax sender, Bin Laden, etc...) the Bush regime has only been successful in creating more terrorists and exacerbating the insurgency in the middle east.

Oh, yes, it's "hard work" being pResident.

[Cha]

52. Yeah, it's "hard work" being a

pretzeldent and getting pretzelshiners.

[patrice]

60. Anthrax here. Radioactive poisoning there.

What's a little politics between enemies.

[UTUSN]

47. I stayed out of VFW posts for 25 yrs. When I went, I remembered why I stayed away n/t

[Ikonoklast]

49. Dad was at Chosin Reservoir

He doesn't talk about it. Ever. He still has shrapnel coming out of his body, even after all these years.

I asked him once why he never joined the Legion, or went to the VFW (he is a member) and he said that he isn't much of a drinker, for one thing, and he never, ever wants to hear war stories from someone who doesn't know how it feels to shit their pants in terror when the Chinese blew the trumpets signaling a mass assault.

He told all three of his sons that he would rather see us in jail before we got drafted for Viet Nam.

[roamer65]

78. Your dad is a hero. Give him my thanks for his service!

He sounds very much like a Vietnam combat vet I talk with frequently. The guy I talk with has been having mild PTSD episodes because of what is happening in Iraq. Your dad was absolutely right on keeping you out of Vietnam.

[PassingFair]

53. Props.

The amount of good you did for the folks there who
feel the way you do but don't speak up (EVEN IF IT
WAS JUST ONE PERSON), is what
makes ripples of goodwill across the universe.

You have set an example that will be MULTIPLIED.
There will be NO END to the dividends of your truth.

Thank you.

[Guaranteed]

54. My Dad was a Marine, but never saw combat during Vietnam.

He was stationed at Camp Legune. He had known he was going to be drafted, so he just enlisted. He was some kind of a sergeant there- supply or staff.

Anyway, he got orders to ship out three times while he was there. Apparently, his colonel liked him being on the base, because he quashed the orders twice. The last time, he only had a couple of months left in the Corps, so he couldn't go anyway.

My step-dad, on the other hand- also a Marine- managed to make it over there. He's got a lot of stories.

[LibertyorDeath]

56. "a brilliant war-time president"

Oh dear god he was joking right I mean he was just pulling your leg

[WinkyDink]

63. "We haven't been hit...?" Tell that to the dead service-men and -women.

They're killing us there, so why bother coming here?

[happydreams]

69. I'm a Vietnam Era veteran. That "bromide" you mention

is a hot one for me.

When someone says we haven't been hit since 9/11 I say: "Well besides the anthrax attacks on two ((terrorist symp))democratic senators after 9/11 the reason we haven't been attacked is because Al Qaeda is a CIA asset and Bush doesn't want anymore attacks so he can use the "we haven't been attacked since 9/11" argument to prove his competence at fighting terrorism.

The responses are entertaining as hell.

[LynnTheDem]

75. The reason we haven't been attacked

since we were attacked under the presidency of george w. bush is because of my lucky magical teddy bear.

And I can prove the reason we haven't been attacked since we were attacked under the presidency of george w. bush is because of my lucky magical teddy bear; we haven't been attacked since we were attacked under the presidency of george w. bush.

Case closed.

[roamer65]

77. There seems to be quite often a big difference between...

non-combat and combat vets. The combat vets that I have known tend to be more "war is the very last resort". The non-combat tend to be more of the "go kill'em" attitude. Just an observation, but certainly not the rule. My great uncle was a medic in the Pacific during WW2. I usually had to ask direct questions to get him to talk about it, but the stories were VERY interesting and historical. For instance, he was on Tinian Island when both A-bombs were brought in and he actually saw them.

[ComerPerro]

79. hey, that vet can always get his ass back over there. If not in the military, then as a contractor

[Aristus]

80. Hey, 11 Bang. Next time some idiot trots out that old b.s. "They haven't hit

us since 9/11", tell them: "Sure they have; they're hitting us every day! That stupid asshole Bush sent Americans over THERE for them to kill. They don't even have to step on a plane to kill Americans anymore. They just have to take a walk down the street." This arguement implies that it was Iraqis who hit us on Sept. 11th, and not Saudis. But idiots like the Ft. Dix REMF don't know the f*cking difference anyway.

And as far as being a "brilliant wartime President", ask them if they are aware that Bush gave in to Osama's demands. Bush did what Osama wanted and pulled American troops out of Saudi Arabia. Ask them how "brilliant" that was.

Ya done good, 11 Bang. :thumbsup: I'm proud of you. B-)

[buddysmellgood]

81. I don't see how you could have let that slide. Nice job.