The 2004 Election was *NOT* stolen...

[Moloch]

Kerry lost it because he ran a lousy campaign.

If the thugs stole it in 2004, they would have tried to do it again this year.

Bev Harris and Truthisall are discredited con artists.

That is all.

[graywarrior]

1. .

:popcorn:

[FogerRox]

10. If a lot of folks want, we could supersize it................

[nicknameless]

93. .

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[Cha]

216. Oh, you got a nice cozy

frontrow seat. :popcorn: I'll just squeeze in here while I read the rest..:beer:

[onenote]

2. microwave time

:popcorn:

[jgraz]

3. The above post is *NOT* a desperate cry for attention

[pacalo]

74. Hahaaa! It is also *NOT* written by someone who likes to pick a fight.

[LittleClarkie]

125. Aw leave him alone, the poor guy. He's probably just freezing

in an apartment without heat. Nothing like warming oneself over a nice toasty flamewar.

[pacalo]

213. Hee! This is the first visual that popped into my head...

:hi:

[Richard Steele]

150. So we shouldn't cast asparagus on the OP, then? nm

[FogerRox]

4. Okie dokie

:popcorn:

[Kelly Rupert]

5. Agreed.

And I'm glad that *finally* we're going to discuss this issue in DU.

[babylonsister]

29. Finally we are? Where have you been? It's been discussed

and determined.
You need to do some reading, maybe start with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and the article he wrote for 'Rolling Stone' about August 06. Then get back to me.

[Kelly Rupert]

33. I'm sorry, I thought the sarcasm was self-evident.

This is a topic that will not die.

[babylonsister]

48. I didn't note the sarcasm-so sorry. And it won't die

until the truth is known. Bunching Bev and TIA together wasn't too smart either.

[lpbk2713]

231. You may be right.

This is a question for the ages.

[LonelyLRLiberal]

6. Also, Saddam Hussein has WMD and is an imminent threat to the US.

Is that all?

[Moloch]

14. No...

That makes about as much sense as the odds of our winning in the generic poll versus the actual voting results are one in nine gajillion.

We all know there weren't any WMDs and that Iraq was NEVER a threat to the U.S.

I don't see what that has to do with voter fraud.

[JackBeck]

19. Maybe how Saddam manipulated himself toward victory

as well as Bush?

Both used voter fraud. You're telling me that 99% of the Iraq poplulation showed up to vote for Saddam?

[Moloch]

32. haha no...

I think Sadam won the last Iraqi election by 99% or so.

[JackBeck]

38. Exactly my point. How do you think "Sadam" won 99%

of the vote? Through voter manipulation.

A similar thing happened here. Why do we need to revisit this?

[orleans]

42. you're kidding, right? i mean, about the whole thing. right? you can't be serious. n/t

[GymGeekAus]

26. How many digits are there in a gajillion?

Seriously. Sounds like pretty steep odds.

Certainty is an interesting mathematical concept, if anyone is interested. :)

Seems to me, the odds of winning in a generic poll versus the actual voting results would be much closer than that. Like, one in two? Assuming zero actual relationship, that is. Either the poll predicted the winner, or it didn't. Yeah, seems at its absolute worst it would be one in two....

[Stand and Fight]

192. Election Fraud, Smart-Ass. n/t

[Kip Humphrey]

229. Ah! VOTER fraud...Is that an oblique reference to Ann "the she-male" Coulter?

He/she is the only one I've heard of being indicted for "VOTER Fraud".

[ComerPerro]

200. no that's not all. He also planned 9/11

[misternormal]

7. I love popcorn... Move over will ya??

:popcorn:

[FogerRox]

15. How 'bout a soda to go with that popcorn

[peace13]

8. I was pretty sure you weren't from Ohio. n/t

[neoblues]

9. Well, that settles it...

You've told us--so now we all know. Surely that must convince everyone.

[Blue Belle]

11. Oy Veh....

This is gonna get ugly... :popcorn:

[LittleClarkie]

23. I hate popcorn

(gets out the graham crackers, marshmallows and chocolate) Wanna smore?

[Blue Belle]

104. Bring it on...

I love smores. (psst... and John Kerry too)

[Lone_Star_Dem]

12. When you put it like that I'm sure everone will see your point

Get your fresh hot popcorn right here!



I need some holiday money. :D

[helderheid]

13. talk to me after you've read this:

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen

:hi:

[Moloch]

17. I've already read that article.. but it was a while ago..

so I'll read it again and get back to you.

:hi:

[LeftCoast]

18. Nevermind

The OP has already spoken. :)

[helderheid]

21. I'll come back tomorrow when I have time to research and post links - plenty of evidence

out there damning Diebold.

[Old and In the Way]

126. What I am interested in is trend analysis comparing Ohio's

change vs the other 49 states from 2004 to 2006. Ohio seemed to go extremely blue this year....is there any data if their results was statistically more significant than rate of change for the other 49 states? If they were amongst the biggest deviators from 2004-2006, it has to make one wonder about 2004.

[OnTheOtherHand]

138. well, the Ohio Republican Party had a total meltdown

You may well be right that Ohio had a big shift in (say) House votes from '04 to '06; certainly the Senate race went a lot differently. But the Kerry outcome in '04 was close to pre-election polls, and the statewide outcomes this year were as well.

That isn't to say that I think the Ohio election in '04 was clean. But so far the evidence of vote-hacking is pretty damn weak. There were some miscounted votes due to "caterpillar crawl" (different ballot orders in one polling place), at least some of which might be attributable to tampering. And people who gave up on long lines, although they wouldn't show up in TIA's beloved exit polls. And lots of questions about registrations.

[Kolesar]

152. Lima Company and other deaths in Iraq is what we in Ohio have been talking about

That, and the matter that the Ohio GOP was spectacularly corrupt decided the election. Only gerrymandering kept us from winning the legislature. Our voters outpolled the gop by >100,000 votes.

[pa28]

41. We need audit accountability and real national standards for elections.

Despite various ego stakes on whether the 2004 election was stolen or not we should all be able to agree on this.

Thanks for posting. I hope everyone reads it.

[Hubert H. Hubert]

16. Where's the UNrecommend topic link? n/t

[redqueen]

190. The ability to downrate comments or topics would be nice huh? n/t

[Hippo_Tron]

20. Read the Kennedy article

I'm not in the camp that firmly believes it was stolen but there's certainly a great deal of evidence that there was foul play in Ohio.

Just because we can't overturn the election doesn't mean that we should ignore the evidence. The good news is that Ohio will be under democratic control by 2008.

[Hubert H. Hubert]

22. BTW, what makes you think they DIDN'T try to steal it again this year? n/t

[Moloch]

27. Oh gee.. I don't know..

perhaps because most of the close races favored the Democratic candidates?

Wasn't that the argument? That they could steal the vote as long as the margins were close?

[Hubert H. Hubert]

46. Maybe the margins weren't close enough

In case you didn't notice, there was plenty of funny business going on here in VA. In the end, it just wasn't enough to overcome Webb's lead.

Regardless, you have not offered any evidence to support your assumption that no attempt was made to steal any 2006 election. Maybe that's because you can't prove a negative.

[Moloch]

70. Cool. Newport News here. Where are you?

Allen was so close because, unfortunately, there are a lot of backwards, redneck idiots in this state who favor people like Allen. Lets not forget that he is a former governor and was (until recently) a popular senator. We won because we had a better get out the vote effort.. I know this because I worked at the campaign and we did everything possible to make sure everybody who wanted to come out and vote did. I drove people to the polls all day long on Nov. 7.

Almost nobody, up until the very end, thought we would pull off this victory. This is because OUR superior GOTV efforts and the fact that we had a damn better candidate.

There WAS fraud. Of course, I'm referring to the robo-calls not a big diebold conspiracy. That, however, has nothing to do with supposed 2004 voter fraud in Ohio. If Ken Blackwell was so bent on supressing votes, then why didn't he stack it in his favor so that he could be governor?

(Regardless of our disagreement, Its great to see more Virginia DUers. Nice to meetcha. :hi: )

[Hubert H. Hubert]

101. Northern Neck

Heh, no short supply of backwards, redneck idiots out here! I can't begin to describe the relief I feel from having Felix smacked down. I sincerely thank you for your efforts.


Anyway, for some bizarre reason I'm having a HUGH compsci flashback...
Must... resist... geek urges...
Nope, I just can't fight it. :freak:

Let's take your OP's implication and break it down:

"If the thugs stole it in 2004, they would have tried to do it again this year."

p = the thugs stole it in 2004
q = they would have tried to do it again this year

(ugh, the code tags don't seem to work)
p q | p -> q
----+-------
F F | T
F T | T
T F | F
T T | T

If you assume p to be false, as you did in your OP, the implication holds whether q is true or false. q has no effect whatsoever on the implication's truthiness. In other words, if you assume 2004 was not stolen, 2006 has absolutely no bearing on the issue - i.e., total red herring.

Even if you don't assume p, q's truth value can only be used to definitively prove p to be false, and that's only if you prove q to be false. So you're entire argument about 2004 hinges solely on 2006. You might as well have posted "2006 was *NOT* stolen" and not even mentioned 2004.

Who'd've thought this logic crap would ever come in handy?


Personally, I'm not going to offer an opinion about 2004. That's been done to death here already. My real beef was with the way you tried to prove your assertion. Actually, it was kind of fun to exercise the old grey matter. Am I officially a geek now?

Holy crap, I just looked at the clock. Now I'm an insomniac geek...

[rateyes]

169. I used to live in the Middle-Peninsula...

on the south bank of the Rappahannock River. Where in the Northern Neck do you live? Ever heard of Deltaville?

[JackBeck]

51. It's not that simple, buddy.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15532.htm

There's a way to win and not win big, as was the will of the people.

[Moloch]

79. We did win big.

We took 30+ house seats and 6 senate seats.

That's winning big.

[JackBeck]

81. If you read the article, we had 3 million votes stolen.

When you decide to read the article, we could have taken more and had a bigger majority.

Edit for spelling.

[FogerRox]

117. The Repubs took 45 in the house in the early 1990's

THATS BIGGER. U BEEN PUNKED.

[uppityperson]

105. so does that mean electronic machine voting is fine with you?

I mean e-voting without a backup counting method?

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

167. Jim Webb led the exit polling by 5%

Why was it a cliffhanger?

[FogerRox]

207. DAmn you..... using the logic of WEBB up by 5%... ARRRRGGGgg

LOL

[Eric J in MN]

24. In Ohio 2004, there were plenty of voting machines in white, suburbs...

...but not enough voting machines in urban neighborhoods and college campuses.

Some people had to wait several hours to vote, others went home without voting.

[Moloch]

54. right that ken blackwell......

I wonder why Sherrod Brown so soundly defeated the republican incumbent senator.

Although.. not as soundly as the gop candidate for governor was defeated. What was his name again? I forgot.

[CitizenLeft]

67. because we got the hell out and VOTED HIS ASS OUT...

...because people HAVE NO JOBS in Ohio and were tired of being lied to by Republicans over and over and over again. Especially the poor-as-shit rightwingers. Got it? VOTED HIM DOWN. In huge numbers - in record numbers. In numbers so large they could NOT steal it. THAT'S why.

You would think that would be clear as cellophane.

Good grief. What kind of question is that?

[Moloch]

72. My point.

Thank you.

If Blackwell wanted to, he could have invalidated the election. That was within his powers as secretary of state. A lot of people were afraid he would do that.

If all those unemployed people voted down blackwell in 2006, they are the same ones who voted (marginally) for bush in 2004.

Ohio has a lot of ignorant people who were fooled by bush's lies.

[CitizenLeft]

82. what point?

You didn't make any point. That in no way precludes election fraud in 2004.

And if Blackwell had tried that, being down in the polls by 36 points, with all the media attention focussed like a laser beam on Ohio, with almost every major newspaper in the state endorsing Strickland, he would've been loudly and nationally disgraced, and he knew it.

And don't give me that crap about 2004, I don't want to hear it - I took part in the Ohio recount, I SAW where the precinct numbers in the registers didn't match the voters, and I KNOW what they did, and if you weren't there taking part in any of the county recounts, then you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[Moloch]

85. Give me an example...

of precinct numbers not matching the voters.. That I would like to see.

No TruthIsAll garbage please...

[CitizenLeft]

98. I watched them - the election board employees...

...snatch the precinct books out of the hands of the recount volunteers the moment we started to see the differences at the bottoms of the pages. Three voter difference here, four there, 2 here, 7 there... it adds up in small increments. The lawyers protested, but that got nowhere, just as the protest got nowhere about the "random" 3% ballot recount, where the board chose which precincts to count - mostly largely Bush precincts - instead of it being actually random. Which was documented ON FILM in the documentary on HBO.

I'm going to try to be calm and not blow up at you, because gleefully smug willful ignorance about this issue really pisses me off.

For reference, here's an article by that staunch liberal apologist Christopher Hitchens. :sarcasm: in case you missed it.

For more, here's a list of links that I'm sure will be too much for you:

http://ohioelection2004.com/listoflinks.htm

Not wasting another moment on this. Either you'll read up on it and educate yourself before making posts like this, or you won't.

[JackBeck]

100. Thank you for your patriotic due diligence.

You should be rewarded a thousand times over.

But you have more faith in this poster than could ever be imagined. Those who are lazy and ignorant generally ignore the facts and leave the heavy lifting for the rest of us. Keep up the great work!

[CitizenLeft]

103. you are right...

...I can see by the other replies that I clearly wasted my time here.

But thank you for your comment. 2004 wore me out and wore me down to see them get away with it. It was NOT going to happen again. We made sure of that. I love my state again!

[JackBeck]

109. Congratulations on a job well done.

Your state was an uphill battle and you were an integral part in restoring democracy. You should be proud of not only yourself but also for being an American.

Cheers all around!

:toast:

[pacalo]

131. Welcome to DU, CitizenLeft.

And I'm so happy for you Ohioans!

:hi:

[Ignis]

215. Welcome to DU!

Thanks for your help with the Ohio election, and thanks for providing links to what was clearly fraud in that same election.

:hi:

[Chipper Chat]

121. I'll back you up here.

On the day before the election (04) I observed the Kerry momentum in downtown Columbus. THousands of folks, mostly students, listened to Bruce Springsteen and cheered Kerry on. My old-age wisdom told me Kerry was going to win Ohio.
But then - SURPRISE-SURPRISE - Bush makes an unannounced stop in Ohio 10 hours before the polls opened. Shrewedness on Bush's part? Hell no. The real reason was for Karl to make a clandestine delivery of the updated vote-rigging software to Blackwell insuring a narrow Shrub victory. I was mad as hell.

[LittleClarkie]

80. Perhaps Blackwell was too busy running his own campaign for governor

to throw out registrations this year and such.

[New Earth]

144. you need to educate yourself as someone else said

and look into the all the things Blackwell did the last 2 years to try and secure his election. visit the "Election Reform" forum a few times a day won't you?
there were still A LOT of discrepancies in many of the races but fortunately enough people got off their ass this time to vote, enough to override *most* of the attempted theft. please, visit the Election Reform forum.

[whistle]

219. First, take a large head of cabbage, dispose of all the lose outer

...leaves, slice into quarters, remove core sections, shred into a large bowl and sprinkle generously with kosher salt. Cover and let stand in a cool area for several hours, turning about every 30 minutes. Squeeze out excess liquid. Then dump the entire bowl over your head!

[Eric J in MN]

223. Fraud can only go so far. Ken Blackwell couldn't make his winning...

...the governorship believable in 2006.

[DaveinMD]

25. I admire your courage

and completely agree.

[LeftCoast]

I think it would be very interesting to post this as a poll question

From the responses here I get the impression that lots of people are afraid to express an opinion.

[GymGeekAus]

37. Ooooh, there's a thought. A bad one, though.

Voting on belief systems! My word.

When we're done, can we vote on the existence of God? I'd love to put that question to rest through a vote.

There is a reason we don't vote en masse on every question presented to our government, you know. Several, actually. Some are pretty good reasons, at that.

Today's best reason? Lack of actual information.

[LeftCoast]

40. Hmm...I'm not sure I understand what you're saying

I'm just curious what the general GD consensus is about this subject. I'm not sure how that's harmful.

:shrug:

[nam78_two]

47. I would vote if you posted the poll

:)

[GymGeekAus]

49. Mostly being facetious.

However, I do believe that there is some danger here in trying to give one side of the argument or the other the support of concensus. Much better to simply insist on sourced opinions and let each side actually construct arguments and have the debate.

The process of voting always seems to go better after the discussion, rather than before. Quirky thing.

[LeftCoast]

50. Oh trust me...this has been discussed

ad nauseum :)

[GymGeekAus]

59. And does it break down into camps of belief?

With each side completely immune to the rhetoric of the other?

I'm unconvinced that it's been discussed enough.

[helderheid]

28. they did try to do it again this year

http://electiondefensealliance.org/landslide_denied_exit_polls_vs_vote_count_2006

[redqueen]

191. Nice link!

Thanks!

[Last Stand]

197. They simply Misunderestimated how many they needed to flip.

When they've done it before, they've flipped 2-3% for a 4-6pt swing. That's been enough to swing most reasonably close elections. The same thing happened here, but they got walloped. They never dreamed that flipping the votes in the key states at a 3% clip wouldn't be enough to help them keep the House and Senate. They totally miscalculated...er, misunderestimated.

All us tinfoilers would go away if the elections were transparent. The people making the vote-counting machines are not just Republicans, but fundraisers for the Bush Cartel. The RW has thrown sand in the gears of all attempts to create a verifiable process for vote-counting. What do they have to hide?

Let the UN and Jimmy Carter come in and make recommendations on our elections. Why do we allow our elections process to be rated one of the lowest of industrialized countries? There's no excuse...unless it's to your benefit, that is.

[helderheid]

202. Very well said - I am sending this info out to elected officials.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hissyspit]

31. Stealing ONE Presidential election is not equivalent to stealing dozens of midterm elections.

False equivalence. Flaw in your logic.

Kerry could run a lousy campaign AND the election could have been stolen.

False dichotomy. Flaw in your logic.

[Kelly Rupert]

36. Actually, I'd say that they're roughly identical.

In the midterms, you have the exact same number of voting machines, fewer candidates, and fewer votes cast. Fixing would be easier. And you know damn well that if we had lost, everyone would be whining that Diebold stole this one too. Hell, people were whining that they had stolen it before the election.

[Moloch]

44. Oh my.

Yes, I took logic in college.

I'd say we're better off with both houses of congress than we were with clinton in the whitehouse.

[JackBeck]

53. But we could have had a bigger win, if not for voter fraud.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15532.htm

Just so you get the point. It's not just about winning. It's about making sure that everyone who voted had their vote counted fairly. And, yet again, this did not happen. Just because we won doesn't mean that it was a fair election for the Democrats. Still seems to be far from it.

[LeftCoast]

56. Except that's not what they were arguing before the election

The argument was that Dems wouldn't win the House or Senate because the election was going to be Diebolded. Now people are moving the goal-posts.

[JackBeck]

61. Not what I was hearing.

I was hearing that we had to get out the vote in numbers, especially for a midterm election since many people sit it out. And across the board I saw this happening. And yet there are still races that are too close to call. We still don't know the outcome of all of the House races. Why? Because they are still too close to call. Why have the races since 2000 and the use of new voting machines been so close?

On edit: 4 races in a row and we still have questions about who holds the seats. I find this a bit odd.

[w4rma]

63. What you say wasn't being argued was exactly what I have been arguing for since 2002.

Overwhelm the fraud. Keep increasing the numbers. Keep fighting hard. Until we regain the majority in power and can get rid of the fraudulent black box voting machines.

They must be gotten rid of before the upcoming elections in 2007. Those things are *extremely* easy to manipulate.

[babylonsister]

76. Who's 'they'? nt

[JackBeck]

83. That's ultimately my question in these situations.

It's become a joke around my house. I turn to everyone and ask the same question. Who is this "they" that always gets the credit for saying things.

[babylonsister]

86. It's especially puzzling when you don't get a response.

But it also happens in "real life" here, too. :D

[JackBeck]

88. Can you imagine in the "real world" if we asked for a linked source?

And yet we can't even get one from the OP in here. ;)

[babylonsister]

90. Look at response #55 The OP is just trying to stir shit up because

he/she obviously doesn't have a clue.

In the real world, if we had to back up what we profess? Don't we?
I know, it's DU and a message board, but you can gain credence here if you're not a total
asshole and visit regularly. :hi:

[JackBeck]

92. Beat you to it.

And yes, I can't stand it when posters edit in order to fit an agenda that doesn't concur with their original post, but a newly formed opinion. Not the first time I'm seen it.

[FogerRox]

206. TIA's 1st paper on '06 , said 100% probabiity that the DEMS

would take 25 seats in the House, 92% probability we would take 32 seats. I didn't recently donate, so I can't do a search, otherwise I would provide you with the links.

I am not familiar with the Argument you cite. The OP cites TIA, I guess you are citing another study?

[New Earth]

148. you mean the election fraud

like the suppression of voters, machine fraud, shortage of voting machines, corrupt election officials, etc.? like the kind where it wasn't the voter's fault, oh that's called election fraud!!!! :hi:

[dchill]

209. "It's not just about winning."

To THEM* it is. :)


*aka THEY

[GymGeekAus]

69. Did the progenitor of this thread just invoke Clinton?

Wowzah.

Is this typical? Forgive my impertinence, but this isn't my "home board."

[dchill]

211. "I took logic in college."

And what kind of grades did you get? With Clinton we got no tax cuts for the wealthy, no war in Iraq, no fake "No Child Left Behind" act, no "abstinence only" family planning/sex education, etc., etc.

"Better off" may lie ahead, but look at the mess we're left with.

[Phredicles]

34. Kerry did run a lousy campaign, but

there was a whole lot of fishiness going on in Ohio.

Plus, I think the Rethugs DID try to steal this election, too; exit polling suggests the Democratic win should have been even more lopsided.

The question I still want answered is this: Why does exit polling work everywhere on Earth but the US? What, we can put a man on the Moon but we can't run a reliable exit poll?

[nam78_two]

35. Flamebait /nt

[rocktivity]

39. I agree only in the sense that Kerry's campaign made '04 EASIER to steal

If Kerry been more consistent and aggressive, it would have been hard for anyone to believe that his 10-point lead had shrunk to "too close to call" by election day. Rove wasn't humoring Bush when he assured him that '06 was in the bag--the reason why it wasn't a three-peat was because the size of the Dem turnout literally neutralized Rove's "math." If you think they didn't TRY to steal '06, check out Landslide Denied if you haven't already.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Kelly Rupert]

43. Rove thought he had turnout in the bag.

Once the election was over, we learned what THE math was: a system of metrics projecting final vote tallies, by predicting turnout of the base. Rove was so in love with his polarize-and-rally strategy that he refused to even consider numbers that didn't fit his rosy view of things. Much like everything else in this administration, hubris was what caused his failure.

[radwriter0555]

45. You couldn't be more completely, utterly and thoroughly WRONG. You see,

the American People were WATCHING. Kkkarl Rove didn't plan ahead.

[Moloch]

55. Oh? And the American people weren't watching in 2004...

after the 2000 Florida debacle? You know, the one where the supreme court basically selected junior to be president?

I think you're giving kkkarl rove too much credit...

[radwriter0555]

71. Perhaps you missed the entire Diebold spectacle and spectre in Ohio..

A nice man wrote a brilliant article about it in the highly esteemed Rolling Stone magazine. The gentleman's name is Robert F. Kennedy Jr..

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen

If you want to dispute his findings, we can certainly engage them point by point. Have a read through, ponder the evidence put together by one of the leading lawyers in the USA, perhaps the world, and we can decide on a few points to discuss. I've been here since January 2001. I'm not going anywhere..

Cheers!

[babylonsister]

87. You need sleep. The "Florida debacle" happened in 2000. The

"Ohio debacle" happened in 2004. :eyes: And they were debacles.

[JackBeck]

89. Haha.

Notice the edit time stamp.

Good Du'ers own up to their mistakes when editing.

[babylonsister]

91. Yes, instead of responding, an edit was made.

:rofl: The edit was lame but a response might have worked, or at least clarified.

[Moloch]

95. Ok.

Your response, Ma'am... but I think everyone knew what I meant.

[JackBeck]

96. Hey, I make mistakes sometimes.

But I own up to them. I'm not of the school that wants to go back into the past to reformulate my misinformed intent to suit my agenda.

[Moloch]

99. All I did on the edit was insert the word '2000'....

I'm pretty sure most people knew which florida debacle i was referring to.... Now you're just being ridiculous.

BTW I'm reading the informationclearinghouse article you sent me. How exactly does the gop discern Jewish voters? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[JackBeck]

106. In all fairness, you were four years off in your thread post.

Saying that the SCOTUS decided the 2004 election is a fair boo-boo to point out.

I don't know how to answer your question. I don't know how the GOP "discern Jewish voters". What's your point and maybe I can guide you further.

[Moloch]

112. In the original post...

I said sarcastically that in 2004 nobody was paying attention AFTER the Florida debacle. My assumption was that everybody would know what I was talking about. Anyway... if you want to consider that a gaffe on my part, go ahead.

Quote from the article:
I've heard that before. In 2004, we got our hands on fifty confidential internal memos from the files of the Republican National Committee. Attached to these were some pretty strange spreadsheets. They called them "caging lists" -- and it wasn't about zoo feeding times. They were lists (70,000 for Florida alone) of new Black and Jewish voters -- a very Democratic demographic -- to challenge on Election Day. The GOP did so with a vengeance: In 2004, for the first time in half a century, more than 3.5 million voters were challenged on Election Day. Worse, nearly half lost their vote: 300,000 were turned away for wrong ID; 1.1 million were allowed a "provisional" ballot -- which was then simply tossed out.

...

How exactly does the gop know which voters are jewish? That's quite a bold claim. Kind of puts the accuracy of the entire article in doubt.

The article also doesn't say how only certain racial groups are targeted (particularly in Ohio.)

Regarding the new voter ID laws. Of course, its a dirty trick designed to limit voter turnout.. Is it unethical? I think so. Is it illegal? No, I don't believe it is.. particularly when the article fails to convincingly state how the new laws are particularly geared toward supressing minority turnout.

[uppityperson]

115. How does the GOP know? Ask them, or a gop operative perhaps.

Best way to find out info is ask the people involved.

[FogerRox]

120. Is Goldstein a jewish name?

Stupid question gets a stupid answer.

[foo_bar]

220. they own a large "marketing database"

The GOP system — built around a database nicknamed Voter Vault — combines huge amounts of demographic, financial and other personal information on individual voters with the data-mining techniques used by direct-mail advertisers to deliver surgically targeted appeals to voters identified as likely to respond, including many who might be considered part of the Democratic base.
(...)
Though details of the GOP system are secret, snowmobilers and other categories of voters are identified from such diverse sources as credit card transactions, product warranty files, magazine subscription lists, consumer surveys, vehicle registrations and other public records.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-dems24sep24,1,7176831.story?coll=la-headlines-politics

The Rolling Stone article leads with its worst foot forward, the "virtually irrefutable evidence" of the organization formerly known as USCV and NEDA, which retracted a "virtually irrefutable" paper with the same conclusion.

From the RS article:

The evidence is especially strong in Ohio. In January, a team of mathematicians from the National Election Data Archive, a nonpartisan watchdog group, compared the state's exit polls against the certified vote count in each of the forty-nine precincts polled by Edison/Mitofsky.
(...)
Such results, according to the archive, provide ''virtually irrefutable evidence of vote miscount.'' The discrepancies, the experts add, ''are consistent with the hypothesis that Kerry would have won Ohio's electoral votes if Ohio's official vote counts had accurately reflected voter intent.''

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen

Two months earlier:

Analysis temporarily retracted - call for ESI to likewise retract
(...)
I had much earlier, before releasing the paper, asked Ron if he was sure that ESI meant ALL the voters in the precinct who had not answered the exit polls rather than just the nonresponders in the sample, and Ron had wrongly assured me that ESI meant ALL the voters in the precinct who had not completed exit polls.

From now on, I will not let any of Ron's work go out without checking every detail of it myself. Ron is so self-assured and stubborn about his own work lately that he has consistently refused to seriously consider things I have to say when I spot something that is wrong, so I "should" have known not to trust him on this too. I accept blame for publicly releasing this error.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=399398&mesg_id=399673

So "virtually irrefutable" was a nice way of saying "refutable". Aside from the exit poll hokum, bullets 2 through 9 merit serious attention ("barriers to registration", "long lines", "faulty machines", etc). But there's a danger in propagating easily refuted conspiracy theories, namely the loss of credibility that accompanies crying wolf:

And so the Democrats are feeling good, and calling for a giant drive to get the vote out on Election Day. Such an effort is essential—and not just to the Democrats but to the very survival of this foundering Republic. However, such a drive will do the Democrats, and all the rest of us, more harm than good if it fails to note a certain fact about our current situation: i.e., that the Democrats are going to lose the contest in November, even though the people will (again) be voting for them. The Bush Republicans are likely to remain in power despite the fact that only a minority will vote to have them there. That, at any rate, is what will happen if we don't start working to pre-empt it now.

Even though this election could go either way, neither way will benefit the Democrats. Either the Republicans will steal their "re-election" on Election Day, just as they did two years ago, or they will slime their way to "victory" through force and fraud and strident propaganda, as they did after Election Day 2000. Whichever strategy they use, the only way to stop it is to face it, and then shout so long and loud about it that the people finally perceive, at last, that their suspicions are entirely just—and, this time, just say no.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2328216

And so, when the Repubs win yet again, surprisingly maintaining their control of Congress, notwithstanding their subterranean approval ratings, we will be prepared to note all the anomalies and improprieties -- and, at long last, to SAY NO. As this will have been the fourth election cycle ravaged by Bush/Cheney since 2000, Americans must finally go Ukrainian, and just refuse to acknowledge BushCo's latest "win."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-crispin-miller/my-advice-for-this-years_b_23996.html

[GymGeekAus]

108. To be fair....

I don't think the people were paying attention in 2004.

The grassroots stories that popped up across the nation this year at the slightest peep of election fraud were significantly more mainstreamed than the ones in 2004. The grassroots press was paying attention. You know, small newspapers watching their own municipalities. This did spark a national dialogue this year, a mainstream dialogue, which was not as negative as it would have been four years ago. This is the sense I got of it.

By the way, there are plenty of ways to discern Jewish voters. There are these things called "scrub lists." We give up our personal information all over the place. There are corporations who exist to gather commercial data on each of us. Commercial data that they could sell to interested groups, such as telemarketers and politicial action groups. If you had an unethical FISA judge, just one, you could even check credit card numbers used at a Jewish grocery store or for donations made to a particular civic group. How many FISA warrant requests have ever been denied, again? And how many times did the President ignore the FISA court, by even conservative sources?

Don't lists just give you the heebie-jeebies? Egads. After watching Schindler's List I am forever disturbed by the idea of columns of personal data in the hands of the government.

[rman]

137. There's no way to watch the counting

There are ways to watch for all kinds of other irregularities, any many were found during this election again, as testified in many posts right here on DU.

[Blackthorn]

52. Phew, that's a relief.

Here I was, paying attention to the thousands of hours of research that prove different. We can all rest easy now. Damkira says it wasn't stolen. Any other bombshells you can put to rest?

"That is all". Condescending much?

[Blue Belle]

110. Here's some others that have been debunked according to this logic:

JFK Assasination = Magic Bullet
Iraq= WMD/Al Queda connection
Abu Grahib = a few bad apples
Katrina = rain storm.

:eyes:

[Jim Sagle]

57. Hogwash!

[w4rma]

58. They pulled the same shit this year in both Ohio and Florida. We overwhelmed the machine.

And also some other races throughout the nation.

They can only cheat so much before it is obvious to even their own supporters. And they have to keep the folks who are 'in the know' extremely small, because many folks tend to get a conscious over stealing elections.

Also. I know for damn fact that those electronic black boxes are as vulnerable as they can possibly be to election fraud.

[Hippo_Tron]

60. IMO I agree

The margin was too big to rig in 2006. If Kerry had run a better campaign the same would've been the case in Ohio in '04.

[rocktivity]

65. DING DING DING! W4rma, you're our grand prize winner!

We overwhelmed the machine...They can only cheat so much before it is obvious to even their own supporters. And they have to keep the folks who are 'in the know' extremely small...

That would certainly explain why so many of the Repubs in this video seem to be more in a state of shock than a state of grief!

:rofl:
rocknation

[On the Road]

62. I Tend to Agree

but it seems to be a futile argument on DU.

Bev Harris is defnitely a con artist. I think TruthIsAll really believes that an exit poll is the same as a sample of the actual data. And if that were true, he would be correct in his conclusions.

[buddysmellgood]

64. Wow! Great post. Thanks for all the supporting evidence!

[tritsofme]

66. I hope you're not just figuring this out now.

I had TIA pegged as a snake oil salesman as soon as he started posting that junk.

[Moloch]

77. lol no...

He probably was just a gop mole trying to demoralize Democratic voters into not turning out...

He is banned after all.

[babylonsister]

94. gop mole? Hmmm? nt

[Moloch]

107. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

What a better way to supress voter turnout than to convince the other side that their votes aren't being counted. DESPITE all the defeatism here, we won this year and all your whining can't change that.

[uppityperson]

111. and who is to say we should not have won by more?

[Moloch]

114. Of course we should have won by more...

I would have liked it if we had beaten the republicans in every single election.. but just because you and i want it, doesn't make it so.

[uppityperson]

116. I mean if they actually counted the votes correctly.

not if more people voted, but if the votes were accurately counted. And who is to say we should not have won by more if the votes were accurately counted?

[pa28]

133. Setting aside Diebold for a minute.

You could just as easily say we won despite Republican favored vote purge lists.

The fact those lists exist and the fact they primarily disenfranchise Democrats are disputed only as a matter of law. Even if you think the documented irregularities of 2004 did not swing the election for Bush don't you think there is room for improvement? Should we just leave the system as it is?

[babylonsister]

171. All "my" whining? Who started this whiney thread anyway? nt

[FogerRox]

119. Slandering some one who isnt here to defend themsleves

is but merest swill. You Sir, need a lesson in DU history. Which you might have gotten if you asked politely, instead of slandering.

I would offer to you Sir, that you can make your case without stooping to such depths. Which would also be lending respectability to your argument. But alas, you have failed in those meager expectations. As you have with your argument.

[OnTheOtherHand]

141. yeah, the con artist thing was just petty

But y'know, Foger, TIA has been so damn petty, so many times, that I have a hard time caring. I'm not arguing with you, just reporting.

Have a great Thanksgiving!

[FogerRox]

205. Exactly my point.

Petty is, as petty does. Dont you think OTOH? We have both seen it before, haven't we?

[Moloch]

188. I do know the history...

I've been here for a while and know that it is against the rules here to accuse anyone who disagrees with you of being a conservative or FReeper. Something TIA always did.

[FogerRox]

204. I would suggest you take that to heart

please rise above the din.. do not stoop to labeling someone a "gop mole", whether they were tombstoned or not. You would be surprised who you might find whilst in the gutter.


Now looking beyond DU rules, Is it hypocritical of person A, to call person B names, because Person B called person C names, and got banned for it...... ?

You might dissagree with TIA, and thats fine.

[New Earth]

143. it has nothing to do with TIA

[ecstatic]

68. how do you explain Bush's low poll ratings, even soon after the (s)elections?

How do you explain the statistically significant exit poll discrepancies?

How do you explain the fact that people actually think his 1-term father was a better prez than pretzel?

Of course they couldn't pull it off this year. Too much media attention and * was just too low in the polls to pull off what they did in '02 and '04. '00 was stolen as well, but mainly through disenfranchising black voters in FL (physically keeping them from voting).

[earth mom]

73. You need to educate yourself.

The rethuglicans did try and steal the election again this year, except they couldn't steal enough votes because there was an OVERWHELMING majority voting for democrats. In other words, the margin was too wide. Whereas in 2004 it was a closer more narrow margin and so they were able to steal the election.

FYI-Read the Rolling Stone article mentioned upthread

and then read this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2775205

p.s. Denial is what they do over at freeperville.

[garybeck]

75. TIME to take your head out of the sand

It's not a matter of DID THEY. It's a matter of COULD THEY.

the real issue is that the votes are counted on proprietary software. forget about 2004. do you want private corporations who support one party or another counting your votes in secret? do you want them to merely have the ability to change the outcome of the election in 2008? Right now, they do have that ability. that is the issue you have to face.

that is not a question. it is happening. It doesn't matter if you like Bev or Truth is All. No one can argue that is happening, unless they (you) haven't looked at how the machines operate. so if you think it's not happening you should take your head out of the sand.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SammyWinstonJack]

147. !!

:evilgrin:

[Karenca]

84. You are SO off

it's not even funny.

[undeterred]

97. ...

:rofl:

[JCMach1]

102. and I suppose Sarasota this year was a fluke

I do agree about the Kerry campaign though. Kerry is not a wooden guy at all and he came out of the campaign looking like a putz.

[Initech]

113. You're forgetting five little words: Swift Boat Veterans For Truth

[Moloch]

124. That's not stealing an election...

the swift boat veterans were lying. That's something that's always happened in elections.

[Der Blaue Engel]

118. .

:eyes: :boring: :thumbsdown: :crazy: :dunce: :silly: :freak: :hurts: :wow: :wtf: :yoiks: :cry: :spank: :argh: :banghead: :nuke: :spray: :rofl: :puke: :popcorn:

[LittleClarkie]

127. Not nearly enough. Let me help ye.

[mhatrw]

122. Is this meant to be satire?

If not, try thinking above 6th grade level.

[LittleClarkie]

128. Sadly, he seems dead serious

nm

[autorank]

123. Pigs livein trees and the founding fathers wore dresses too!

What a rediculous post. Well documented though.

What brand of Democrat are you?

[Binka]

129. The Cheap Brand

That is all.

[autorank]

132. ;)

[New Earth]

146. an old DU mod too!!

wtf! apparently he/she was too busy sniffing out freepers (which of course is appreciated) to pay attention to Election fraud news the past 2 or 3 years :wtf:
someone needs to learn how to multitask!!

[lies and propaganda]

130. Cuyahoga Count Ohio

i dont feel like i need to say anything more.

[LibertyorDeath]

134. "Truthisall discredited con artist"

Wow your Ignorance seems to know no bounds.

"Truthisall discredited con artist"

You can read English so this is either flame bait
or one of the most IGNORANT assertions I've seen in my 5 years here.

BACK IT UP!

Yeah that's what I thought.

Your post is shit....

[OnTheOtherHand]

140. discredited, yes; con artist, no

In 2004, he tortured the pre-election polls until they confessed, and his opinions about exit polls are out in the Delta Quadrant. But I have no reason to believe that he has made any money on it.

You probably think you know better, but I doubt it. I've spent a year and a half on DU trying to get someone to defend TIA's arguments in detail.

[opihimoimoi]

135. evidence indicates otherwise...

[rman]

136. Well, if you say so,

it must be true, right?

[sendero]

139. Let me get this straight..

... the fact that nobody shot my dog today proves that nobody shot my dog last year.

Please stick to something other than thinking, you are not too good at it.

[kiki]

155. Well...

...if we assume 'shooting' to be fatal, the fact that your dog is alive today is proof that nobody shot your dog last year... :)

[sendero]

156. I have more..

.... than one dog :) :)

[kiki]

162. Damn your liberal doublespeak!

[New Earth]

142. lolololololololol

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


that's it guys, party's over. keep the electronic voting machines, Blackwell is innocent, all our time has been wasted!!!

:wtf:

[deutsey]

145. Stealing an election and Kerry's inept campaign are not mutually exclusive

I thnk they didn't steal 2006 because of the GOP's numerous scandals and the massive voter anger and turnout. It would have been too obvious (not that 2004 wasn't obvious, too, with the exit poll discrepancies and numerous reports about "irregularities" that always seemed to benefit Bush). I don't know about Bev and Truthisall, but I do know the evidence I've seen leads me to suspect 2004 was stolen.

[eridani]

149. They did try

Voter turnout overcame it, and we would have had far bigger margins without the vote suppression and machine errors.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

168. Exactly. The runout overwhelmed any funny business.

nm

[Kolesar]

151. Some of the writing on "stolen elections" is pretty lame

Writers like Fitrakis or Palast will cite "huge numbers of names" taken off the voting rolls, but never really prove that that "huge number of people" were turned back at the precinct voting location. Also, trying to prove that Kerry won in 2004 because pre-election and exit polls said he would win is futile.

However, this story in Florida of voting machines recording 18,000 undervotes for Congress is worth investigating.

[New Earth]

153. to all my good friends on DU

if anything interesting happens in this thread, please PM me to let me know. After this post, I won't be able to see it. :hi:

[JNelson6563]

154. I have a different theory

I think it was stolen but the fact that it was a crappy campaign and the margin was narrow made it possible to be stolen.

Julie

[TheBaldyMan]

157. What about the 2000 election - How did Gore lose that one ?

:popcorn:

[Moloch]

186. Gore didn't lose that one.

I never claimed he did.

[Fly by night]

158. I can never win an argument with a willfully ignorant person ...

... so I have no interest in having a beer with the Smirking Chimp or commenting further on this thread.

[Puglover]

159. A very serious question.

Why post this crap? It's flamebait period.

[Kelly Rupert]

161. Asked and answered.

[JeffR]

160. wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong

but of course, you're free to have your own opinion on this

[Balbus]

163. Common sense doesn't belong here.

Every election that any Democrat has lost was stolen. Every election that a Democrat has won was valid. There, you've been set straight. Consider it my Thanksgiving gift to you and your loved ones.

[Nick Fallon]

217. HAHAHAHA

Thats a good one

[WI_DEM]

164. While perhaps it can be debated about Kerry's campaign there is no ? in my mind

that Ohio was stolen--and those votes would have provided enough electoral votes for Kerry to win.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

165. Show me the audit trails and the careful canvassing procedures

Prove to me the 2004 election wasn't stolen. Prove to me that the 2006 election wasn't rigged but the turnout overwhelmed the cheating. Look at the the accounting procedures used to count our votes and explain why they would be acceptable to a bank auditor.

There is documented evidence of voter suppression, tens of thousands of reported computer "glitches" that almost always favor the republican and die hard refusal to create an audit trail by crooked repub BOE officials like Katherine Harris and Ken Blackwell.

There is a discrepancy in the exit polling versus the vote count beyond statistical norms. The difference is worse where DRE machines are used. This discrepancy requires a better explanation than "right wingers are shy."

If you claim an election was honest in the face of this evidence, the burden of proof is on you, so go ahead and prove these things. If you can't, then shut up about it.

At this point, I don't know if the machines are rigged or if the ruthlessness of the voter suppression skews the results, but until somebody proves otherwise, the elections in this country are a sham.

[Ferret Annica]

166. You are delusional, that is all.

[Laurab]

170. Wow - thanks so much for that information this is HUGH!!!

and, of course * ran a STELLAR campaign, his "intelligence" in every debate was so overwhelming, and then there was his great record he was running on - indeed, who am I to argue that the majority of people wanted to put a useless twit back into the WH?

I am SO relieved that you've clarified this for me, and that I no longer have to be concerned with machines with no paper trail, and software no one can look at
except the private companies that own them. I thought it had been proven that it was really easy to hack an election and stuff, and I read all these silly facts about those machines. Now, thanks to you, I know what a waste of time that was, and I'll sleep so much easier....

[librechik]

172. Don't ever mention Truth Is All and Bev Harris in the same sentnece again

unless "completely different" is in the mix.

[Kolesar]

175. How do you mean?

I have not read every darn thread about these controversies. What are you saying?

[librechik]

176. Bev is an illusionist . TIA is a scientist. Big difference

[Kolesar]

178. that does not tell me much

or *anything*, for that matter.

[rinsd]

203. I know. Its an insult to Bev Harris

Who actually raised awareness for voter fraud and black box voting as opposed to TIA who posted debunked fun with numbers.

[Junkdrawer]

173. (psst) Your agenda is showing...n/t

[natrat]

174. whatever dude- how do you know what or what not was stolen?

the point is no one should have to wonder if an election has been stolen--PELOSI-GET RID OF THE FUCKING MACHINES--please :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

177. They did try to steal it again this year

The massive turnout foiled most of their plans.

[tomreedtoon]

179. Logic, young Padawan! Maybe BOTH could be right.

Kerry ran a lousy campaign AND the election was stolen. Why should those two be mutually exclusive events? In fact, it could be that Kerry's pathetic campaign made the theft all the more easy to hide.

This is a small-minded thread, especially the "That is all" signoff.

Although it might be a warning that, if Kerry gets the candidacy again, it might encourage more vote-stealing, since he hasn't learned anything in the last four years.

[porphyrian]

180. You aren't aware of what happened in Ohio?

Want to look a few things up and revisit that assertion?

[boolean]

181. They tried to steal it this time, too

What makes you think they didn't try to steal it this time? Just because they failed doesn't mean they didn't give it a shot.

[Morgana LaFey]

182. I've seen Moderators lock threads

with the explanation "flamebait." Seems to me this one might qualify, eh?

[Kelly Rupert]

187. I hope not.

The OP simply wrote out the position that the overwhelming majority of Americans have regarding the 2004 election. If that is cause for threadlock, then DU is a far sadder place than I thought.

[redqueen]

195. Read up on flamebait, and figure out why it's bad.

Then you'll understand why it's not "sad" to lock threads like this.

[redqueen]

193. It sure does. n/t

[LSK]

183. A picture is worth a thousand words

Yeah, he ran such a bad campaign:

[madinmaryland]

184. Geez,

[byronius]

185. Fear is the mind-killer. The little death that brings total obliteration.

Hard to face facts. Not pleasant. Don't want to go there. Wouldn't be prudent.

Argument by scoffing -- I love it! Scoff, scoff. 'You're all CRAZZZZZZZZYYYYYYYY!'

That works. They've all gone away, now. Everything's clean and clear. Ahhhh.

Move along. Nothing to see here.

Tin-foil parade, now!

Shut the coccoon door, it's cold.

Dave. What are you doing, Dave. Stop.

Lalalalalalala.

Snort.

Faith in the Black Box is like a day without thinking. And I like not thinking.

No thinking. Shut up. Stop talking. Bad voices scare me.

Fear.

[Kerrytravelers]

189. Aw. Does someone need attention?

That is all.











:eyes:

[redqueen]

194. 10 recommends?!

:rofl:

[Stand and Fight]

196. Flame Bait

No logical argument is put forth to support your claim. There is no in depth analysis here -- especially not to the level that has been performed by people far more qualified than you or I to make the claim that there was in fact election fraud.

[AtomicKitten]

198. *

Kerry lost because of election fraud AND he ran a lousy campaign.

[blm]

199. And exit polls are only to be believed in OTHER nations, not ones run by corpmedia

friendly to BushInc.

[OnTheOtherHand]

214. not so much other countries either

As I've pointed out various times, the two Ukraine exit polls during the first run-off differed from each other more than the 2004 U.S. exits differed from the official returns.

I'm not saying exit polls are useless, just that the talking point is.

[Zhade]

201. Harris is a con artist, yes.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the hundreds of OTHER activists with their evidence, though.

[dailykoff]

208. Right, except for the Iowa caucuses.

THEY were stolen. :rofl:

[Rainscents]

210. You really should buy a book written by Congressman John Conyers.

He investigated what happened to Ohio election fraud and the name of the book is "What went wrong in Ohio 2004."

[alcibiades_mystery]

212. Dead on Accurate

That is all.

[TheWatcher]

227. Ah yes, more insightful drivel from my favorite apologist.

[alcibiades_mystery]

230. Oh, am I your favorite?

Glory be. It's time then for the HAPPY DANCE!!!

[joe_sixpack]

218. This thread got me thinking

That the GOP would resort to voter fraud is generally accepted. But just to pose the question for curiousity's sake, how much voter fraud does anyone here think our side is guilty of, if at all?

[hayu_lol]

221. Would the last poster out of here kindly...

sweep up all the popcorn on the floor. Thanks.

[wisteria]

222. Good campaign!

Don't agree that Kerry ran a bad campaign. I though it was a tougher campaign than we had seen in over ten years and the odds were just against kerry winning. War time presidents no matter how bad some may think they are, are never unseated. Kerry came close though.
Don't agree that there were not voter issues in 04. Disenfranchisement and intimidation, and some vote hanky panky definitely went on.
Also, don't agree that the Repubs would of cheated this time if they in fact had cheated in 04. wouldn't that of looked a little suspicious? I believe there was some cheating this time, but the public was much more aware of voting issues, making it impossible to get away with some of the things the Repubs did in 04.

That is all- too.

[Chomp]

224. Bad luck OP

You should know better than to say things to people on DU that they don't want to hear.

You'll know better next time.

[LaPera]

225. Talk about someone with their head in the sand! Your avoiding the FACTS!!

They did steal votes BIG time in 2006....Don't you read, don't you do research? Do you just depend on the TV media not to tell you about the massive theft in 2006...If it wasn't for the huge turnout of Dems they would have completely stolen it...Rove really thought they had it stolen two weeks before the election and Dean shifted gears on the republicans and decided to not just pay attention to races they thought they could win and that Rove knew the DLC only wanted to go after...But Dean threw thm a curve ball and went with a 50 state plan instead, in the last two weeks and the Dems donated heavily and turned out in droves in races thought lost until Dean decided to go after all races in all 50 states ...However, yes, there was still millions votes stolen, not counted,.

Election Defense Alliance, a national election integrity organization, issued an urgent call for further investigation into the 2006 election results and a moratorium on deployment of all electronic election equipment, after analysis of national exit polling data indicated a major undercount of Democratic votes and an overcount of Republican votes in U.S. House and Senate races across the country. “These findings raise urgent questions about the electoral machinery and vote counting systems used in the United States,” according to Sally Castleman, National Chair of EDA. This is a national indictment of the vote counting process in the United States!

As in 2004, the exit polling data and the reported election results don’t add up. “But this time there is an objective yardstick in the methodology which establishes the validity of the Exit Poll and challenges the accuracy of the election returns,” said Jonathan Simon, co-founder of Election Defense Alliance. The Exit Poll findings are detailed in a paper published today on the EDA website.

The 2006 Edison-Mitofsky Exit Poll was commissioned by a consortium of major news organizations. Its conclusions were based on the responses of a very large sample, of more than 10,000 voters nationwide*, and posted at 7:07 p.m. Election Night, on the CNN website. That Exit Poll showed Democratic House candidates had out-polled Republicans by 55.0 percent to 43.5 percent – an 11.5 percent margin – in the total vote for the U.S. House, sometimes referred to as the “generic” vote.

http://electiondefensealliance.org/major_miscount_of_vote_in_2006_election

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11372

http://www.bradblog.com

[TheWatcher]

226. The facts, evidence, research, they have never mattered to sad poeple like you

All you have is ideas rooted in blind faith and face value propaganda that you are so desperate to believe in, and you will cling to it no matter what the cost, no matter how much evidence or research is presented to you that at the very LEAST provides a legitimate debate opening up many questions that need to be answered before such a sweeping generalization could ever have a chance in HELL of being considered.

But the saddest thing of all is that this post has 225 responses.

It shouldn't have a single one.

Because people like the OP are not interested in facts, debate, discussion, or objectivity.

They are only interested in maintaining the Truman Show like reality they so desperately need to live in , in order to function.

Such things should be given the amount of time and effort they deserve.

Which is absolutely none.

Ignore people like this.

Reach out to the people who are actually interested in objectivity and debate, and have a mind that is open to reality and possibility.

For they are the one's who matter and will ultimately be productive and relevant in shaping our country.

This country needs critically thinking, objective, open-minded, pro-active people in order to move forward.

People like this are nothing more than obstacles.

Go around them, much like you would drive around an obstacle in the road, and politely move on.

[CJCRANE]

228. It's all about the margins...n/t