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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:09 AM
Original message
In Case I Disappear
Link to original: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/092906J.shtml

In Case I Disappear
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Perspective

Friday 29 September 2006

I have been told a thousand times at least, in the years I have spent reporting on the astonishing and repugnant abuses, lies and failures of the Bush administration, to watch my back. "Be careful," people always tell me. "These people are capable of anything. Stay off small planes, make sure you aren't being followed." A running joke between my mother and me is that she has a "safe room" set up for me in her cabin in the woods, in the event I have to flee because of something I wrote or said.

I always laughed and shook my head whenever I heard this stuff. Extreme paranoia wrapped in the tinfoil of conspiracy, I thought. This is still America, and these Bush fools will soon pass into history, I thought. I am a citizen, and the First Amendment hasn't yet been red-lined, I thought.

Matters are different now.

It seems, perhaps, that the people who warned me were not so paranoid. It seems, perhaps, that I was not paranoid enough. Legislation passed by the Republican House and Senate, legislation now marching up to the Republican White House for signature, has shattered a number of bedrock legal protections for suspects, prisoners, and pretty much anyone else George W. Bush deems to be an enemy.

So much of this legislation is wretched on the surface. Habeas corpus has been suspended for detainees suspected of terrorism or of aiding terrorism, so the Magna Carta-era rule that a person can face his accusers is now gone. Once a suspect has been thrown into prison, he does not have the right to a trial by his peers. Suspects cannot even stand in representation of themselves, another ancient protection, but must accept a military lawyer as their defender.

Illegally-obtained evidence can be used against suspects, whether that illegal evidence was gathered abroad or right here at home. To my way of thinking, this pretty much eradicates our security in persons, houses, papers, and effects, as stated in the Fourth Amendment, against illegal searches and seizures.

Speaking of collecting evidence, the torture of suspects and detainees has been broadly protected by this new legislation. While it tries to delineate what is and is not acceptable treatment of detainees, in the end, it gives George W. Bush the final word on what constitutes torture. US officials who use cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment to extract information from detainees are now shielded from prosecution.

It was two Supreme Court decisions, Hamdi v. Rumsfeld and Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, that compelled the creation of this legislation. The Hamdi decision held that a prisoner has the right of habeas corpus, and can challenge his detention before an impartial judge. The Hamdan decision held that the military commissions set up to try detainees violated both the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the Geneva Conventions.

In short, the Supreme Court wiped out virtually every legal argument the Bush administration put forth to defend its extraordinary and dangerous behavior. The passage of this legislation came after a scramble by Republicans to paper over the torture and murder of a number of detainees. As columnist Molly Ivins wrote on Wednesday, "Of the over 700 prisoners sent to Gitmo, only 10 have ever been formally charged with anything. Among other things, this bill is a CYA for torture of the innocent that has already taken place."

It seems almost certain that, at some point, the Supreme Court will hear a case to challenge the legality of this legislation, but even this is questionable. If a detainee is not allowed access to a fair trial or to the evidence against him, how can he bring a legal challenge to a court? The legislation, in anticipation of court challenges like Hamdi and Hamdan, even includes severe restrictions on judicial review over the legislation itself.

The Republicans in Congress have managed, at the behest of Mr. Bush, to draft a bill that all but erases the judicial branch of the government. Time will tell whether this aspect, along with all the others, will withstand legal challenges. If such a challenge comes, it will take time, and meanwhile there is this bill. All of the above is deplorable on its face, indefensible in a nation that prides itself on Constitutional rights, protections and the rule of law.

Underneath all this, however, is where the paranoia sets in.

Underneath all this is the definition of "enemy combatant" that has been established by this legislation. An "enemy combatant" is now no longer just someone captured "during an armed conflict" against our forces. Thanks to this legislation, George W. Bush is now able to designate as an "enemy combatant" anyone who has "purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States."

Consider that language a moment. "Purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States" is in the eye of the beholder, and this administration has proven itself to be astonishingly impatient with criticism of any kind. The broad powers given to Bush by this legislation allow him to capture, indefinitely detain, and refuse a hearing to any American citizen who speaks out against Iraq or any other part of the so-called "War on Terror."

If you write a letter to the editor attacking Bush, you could be deemed as purposefully and materially supporting hostilities against the United States. If you organize or join a public demonstration against Iraq, or against the administration, the same designation could befall you. One dark-comedy aspect of the legislation is that senators or House members who publicly disagree with Bush, criticize him, or organize investigations into his dealings could be placed under the same designation. In effect, Congress just gave Bush the power to lock them up.

By writing this essay, I could be deemed an "enemy combatant." It's that simple, and very soon, it will be the law. I always laughed when people told me to be careful. I'm not laughing anymore.

In case I disappear, remember this. America is an idea, a dream, and that is all. We have borders and armies and citizens and commerce and industry, but all this merely makes us like every other nation on this Earth. What separates us is the idea, the simple idea, that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are our organizing principles. We can think as we please, speak as we please, write as we please, worship as we please, go where we please. We are protected from the kinds of tyranny that inspired our creation as a nation in the first place.

That was the idea. That was the dream. It may all be over now, but once upon a time, it existed. No good idea ever truly dies. The dream was here, and so was I, and so were you.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. so proud to recommend this one. beautifully put.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
2. brought me to tears, both for its beauty but also from the fear and dread
I feel. I am so scared for my family (this includes my DU family).
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AndyA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
3. I wonder how long it will be before Democratic Senators are
deemed enemy combatants by Bush.

Bush alone could change the outcome of the elections in November if he wants to. He can lock them up and throw away the key. And it's all legal thanks to the GOP-led (corrupt) Congress.

America is gone, folks.
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resist_vote on paper Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
255. There is always a chance - don't give up!
The best thing to do will be to inform everybody around you.

Don't watch the propaganda on TV! Switch it off and throw it out! It makes you dumb!

And then: Time to go demo! But be polite, stay calm and friendly. There is not much time left to do this in peace, I am afraid to say!

Get organised!
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unhappycamper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
4. It is indeed scary stuff.
I wrote this March 13, 2005:

If I disappear
it is because I am protesting an unjust war.

If I disappear
it is because I oppose the current regime.

If I disappear
it is because Dubya or Alberto or one of their minions say I no longer have any rights.

If I disappear
it is because I am now speaking out against fascism.

If I disappear
Be afraid you have read this and may be next.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. "By writing this essay, I could be deemed an "enemy combatant."
Yes, you could. That is why that vote yesterday was so important. It's not "just politics". We have been betrayed by 65% of the US Senate.
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
191. Two bullet suicides... and James Hatfield, Fortunate Son
come to mind.

Let's be careful out there.

It's a whole new world... a brave new world.

I told you so, number 10,403....
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
6. "It may all be over now..."
That thought has stayed with me all week.

Have we finally stopped circling the drain, and started moving full-speed toward the sewer?
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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
7. I'm breaking my new rule
I have recently decided to only recommend posts dealing with the climate crisis but right now this dangerous and disturbing event in our history needs to be brought to everyone's attention - grabbed hold of by the media and the public and not let go until we restore the idea of liberty and human rights in this nation.

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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
30. And I appreciate your help, Yankey!
:toast:
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #30
245. I'll second that!
:thumbsup:
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
8. I don't always agree with you, Mr. Pitt. But I certainly do this time!
:patriot:
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
9. America the dream shall rise again



Liberty Leading the People (1830) by Eugne Delacroix
From the website of the University of Southern California

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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
147. I recall a chat with you as Patriot Act one was up
and all I envisioned then has become frighteningly close at hand.

We win or we fall. We do not stop or surrender.
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plcdude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
10. excellent as always
and if you need a place to hide out shoot me a PM and we'll take care of you.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
11. From V for Vendetta:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0434409/quotes

Valerie: I remember how the meaning of words began to change. How unfamiliar words like "collateral" and "rendition" became frightening, while things like Norsefire and the Articles of Allegiance became powerful. I remember how "different" became dangerous. I still don't understand it, why they hate us so much.

Valerie: But America's war grew worse and worse and eventually it came to London. After that there were no roses anymore. Not for anyone.

Valerie: They took Ruth while she was out buying food. I've never cried so hard in my life. It wasn't long till they came for me.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Also from V:
"People should not fear their governments, governments should fear the people."
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #15
85. Actually thats from Thomas Jefferson. A real-life V in his day.
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #85
192. TJ may have said it too
but I got it from the original Tom Paine. See my sigline.

It's been there for quite awhile, but even I still find myself reading it over and over again, wondering, "Why is that such a difficult concept for people to grasp?"....


:patriot:


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Johnny Noshoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
235. I like this one from Babylon 5
G'Kar_"No Dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power governments and tyrants, and armies can not stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once, we will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, WE WILL BE FREE."

Just replace Centauri with fascists and bingo.
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
12. It isn't paranoia _ It is the reality of the New World Order.
Get ready for a bumpy ride. We are following the path of pre WWII Germany to a T. We need to start a check in place to keep track of each other.
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
95. The worst part about the "New World Order" is that you won't ever be
able to escape it's reach by moving to another country. It's not like that yet, but someday, if their plans are carried out to the fullest extent, there will truly be no where to run, no where to hide.

I just thought they would do the "connecting" of the countries first, before they dismantled the American system. This came faster than I thought.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #95
171. Take heart, "They" will eventually fail...
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 03:14 PM by Dr_eldritch
(though I'm not so sure which 'they' you may be referring to.)

Here is why;

There are only two possible ultimate outcomes for the Human Race;

1) Oblivion

2) Transcendence

It does not matter how long it takes. It does not matter what takes place between 'now' and 'then'. Either we perish forever as a race, or we become divine.

Either way; they fail.

The human spirit thrives on knowledge, exploration, and growth. Each year we add more and more to our ever-expanding base of knowledge. We reach out to answer questions, find more questions, and seek more answers... and we get those answers often enough to show progress.
Even now we are on the verge of taking hold of the course of our own evolution. We may be a mere hundred years away from unlocking full human potential and making strides we can't even imagine now.
But it doesn't matter if it is a hundred years, or a thousand, or even a million. Provided we do not go extinct, we will eventually achieve a transcendent human philosophy along with our technological and physical achievements.
There are and have been signs of this philosophy throughout history, and we have seen that those in power are terrified of it, for it would eventually mean equality and prosperity for all... which is the very means to destroy war, suppression, and a litany of evils inflicted on the powerless by the powerful and insecure.
But at some point in human evolution - for as we know, each new generation is more intelligent than the last - this philosophy will be come so self-evident to all the masses of the world, that it will sweep the suppressors out of power forever and begin a new human journey to transcendence.

Thus we become divine.

Whether it takes a hundred years, a thousand years, or even a million years... it will happen.

The only way to keep it from happening is to eradicate the human race entirely.

But in the meanwhile, the forces of insecurity and suppression represented by the self-affirmed 'elite', will merely attempt to stave this off by depriving humanity of the ability to learn, grow, prosper, and most importantly, communicate.

Such tactics, no matter how sophisticated they become, cannot suppress humanity as a whole without destroying it.

Such methods may work for a hundred years, maybe a thousand, possibly a million. But unless they wipe us, and themselves, out of existence, those methods will eventually fail.

Humans will continue to become more intelligent.
We will continue to develop new ideas and philosophies.
As people realize more and more how they are being controlled, they will devise new ways to break that control.

The suppressors may wipe out vast knowledge, and vast populations, but we will start over from scratch if necessary.

As resources dwindle, and technology improves, it will become more and more difficult to maintain control. If we branch out to new worlds, it will become nearly impossible.

If they have their way, humanity will stagnate and perish.

I doubt theyll have their way forever thats too long for anything to work. Eventually either their system of control breaks and humanity achieves transcendence

Or we all perish and take them with us into oblivion.

So I do not worry for the future of the race, the oppressors will eventually fail

I worry instead for all the suffering that will be inflicted between now and then.
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #171
197. Deepdown I believe this too.
I recognize that there are a great many variables and that any predictions of a direction or destiny for humankind are always frought with peril because it's simply too hard to guess all the variables -- and line them up to get the "right" answer.

Back when he was alive, B.F. Skinner and I had some long talks about the fate of humanity, the power different groups had or might gain, and what it was that made the survival of any group possible.

According to his philosophy -- and that was one developed from his work in "free operant conditioning" of subjects, the group which has members who are willing to sacrifice their lives for the benefit and survival of the collective is the group that does survive.

Whenever members of a group become willing to give each other up, to eat their young or throw the old folks under a bus, that group is in trouble and will not long survive unless it changes its ways.

When I think of it this way, I don't even have to look at the prospect of a thousand or a million years before a -- well, let's call it a "pre-transcendent" stage is achieved among humans.

I don't expect it will be tomorrow, however. :(

What continues to amaze me is that the ones in power here now don't seem to recognize that their tactics are so ruthless and blatant, in an effort to save and protect themselves, that they are in fact forcing the issue sooner than it was necessary for them to do so. But then maybe I'm wrong in my estimation, and they know a lot of things I don't about just how vulnerable they truly are to a massive revolt at this point.

Whenever I get really discouraged by the horrors that continue to unfold in my beloved country, I have to take a big step back and gain some perspective. If that's not enough, I keep on backing up until I see a picture that's big enough to encompass an eventual resolution of the problem.

Man, am I ever having to back up a LOT lately!!


What "they" should never mistake is my backing up for backing down.........

:patriot:


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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #197
229. Brilliant....
"What "they" should never mistake is my backing up for backing down..........

Oh but they do.
Thinking they have the entire picture is a weakness. They are so embedded that they haven't any other perspective. Which is why you are right again here;

"What continues to amaze me is that the ones in power here now don't seem to recognize that their tactics are so ruthless and blatant, in an effort to save and protect themselves, that they are in fact forcing the issue sooner than it was necessary for them to do so. But then maybe I'm wrong in my estimation, and they know a lot of things I don't about just how vulnerable they truly are to a massive revolt at this point."

They do know a lot of things... a few levels of tech more, I'd wager. That's why they think themselves invulnerable.

But it's still very temporary, and for all they they can protect themselves, they are short-sighted in that pursuit. One of the things they only pretend they have grasped is longevity, but they really cannot understand what they have undertaken.

Immortality and control are irrelevant where the human spirit is concerned. Both will fade, or all will perish.

Thank you for your insight.
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #171
216. Yes, this is true. But if we can avoid a thousand years of tyranny...
...between now and (either oblivian or transcendence) I think we should try.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #216
230. Absolutely...
Never for even a moment do I intend to lie down...

For that would be the very death-knell of our race.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #95
226. there is always suicide.
The Archons ,rulers or"principalities and powers" Fascist fuckheads whatever you call it,They can try to break your mind,control your life,damage your body..but they cannot control your spirit once you decide to refuse them control and the most extreme form of saying no, is to cut yourself free of your own body..To me, that was the core of Jesus's message.The body is not you. Death is not the END..Disagree all you want.That's what I think the whole thing is about.Why does Jesus tell Judas in the recently found gnostic Gospel of Judas,he is the star that leads them all?

Why would the guy that kills Jesus's BODY be so honored?

Because..Archons ,rulers or"principalities and powers" whatever you call it,They can try to break your mind,control your life,damage your body..but they cannot control your spirit once you decide to refuse them control and the most extreme form of saying no, is to cut yourself free of your own body.. And lose the world to gain eveything.Hoping for things unseen.
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resist_vote on paper Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #95
253. Nowhere to run
you are so right.

They just said yesterday in the news, that they will build fences at the canadian and the mexican boarder, to stop illegal immigration.

I wonder, if its only the official term?

BTW: How do you guys over there think about Alex Jones?
Not long ago i viewed his video and it really hit me out of my shoes!
This man is in extremely danger, imho. Take care of him!
Here is his latest video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-59482636075793...
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #12
141. Without oversight, Bush is doing whatever he damn well pleases
How mqany generals must come forward to get rid of (geeezzuuusss!!!)an incompetant Secretary of Defense?!!

Rumsfeld seems to be totally out of touch with the commanders in Iraq and Afganistan!
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
13. I have a safe house if needed.
watch your back and your phone calls.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. So you offereing a safehouse for a possible "traitor"??
So you will be on the list also? Thought about that?
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Yeah, I'll be a traitor.
lots of thought, maybe the thought police will get me first.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Can I have some of your rice?
They will not feed us as well as the "detainees" at Guantanamo...
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. NOOOoooooo, it's my rice.
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pooja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
14. We have to be careful yes, but defeated no. Bush can be thrown
out.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
45. I hope you can make that statement in six weeks or so.
Pessimistically speaking, it's looking like any 'throwing out' will not be accomplished by the ballot box.

November will tell.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
16. This is an "I told you so" moment
I don't mean that in a rude way (and I actually didn't tell YOU per say)

But I am and was INDEED one of those paranoid people that used to tell others to watch their backs because these cretins were capable of anything.

My mind is boggled--sadly, I am not surprised... but I am honestly at total overload at the moment.

I cannot believe they got away with this.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
128. I have seen this coming as well...
and the building of all of these Detainee Centers across the country...who are they building them for?

If we don't get subpoena power in this Election, * will absolutely squash all dissent. I hear that he has set up the Doomsday Project at DOJ in case Dems do get Subpoena Power. They will fight it tooth and nail. They're shredding as we type probably.

Then I begin to think....will Subpoena Power even stop this regime. They're outlaws...they don't abide by laws. * never has. Will the American people stand up? Maybe with the coming financial crash, folks will realize that they have nothing to lose and will rise and demand their country back.

I am so worried. I go from despair to rage. I do believe I will get a passport just in case. How quickly we have fallen. Thank Goddess for the internet...and DU has kept me sane.
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #128
234. IF the Democrats manage to take control of
the House, which is still a big IF, do you REALLY think they will subpoena anyone in the Bush administration? Too many of them have been only too willing to go along with his agenda. I don't hold out much hope that they care about the little people at all.

When the Democrats DO NOT issue subpoenas, what will be the excuse then?
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #234
258. John Conyers will issue subpoenas....
I don't think anything could stop him. Well, maybe anthrax could stop him.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
17. "The dream was here, and so was I, and so were you." recommended
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
18. Can I have your toaster?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. It caught on fire the other day
so sure. :P
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #21
71. The tiny little camera burned up?
Did they guy at the toaster store act like he was expecting you?

When you threw the toaster away in the dumpster did you hear what sounded like someone saying "OW"?

I hate to sound paranoid-I know that this piece wasn't meant as that but as a warning-but I have had a couple of weird things happen to me (us) in the last 18 months or so. Probably nothing but then I don't give them any benefit of the doubt anymore. There really is nothing that could be done at this point.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
145. Flaming toaster? What was my daughter doing at your place?
She is Fire Goddess of Electric Appliances.

And I expect her to get arrested next Thursday.

Hey, is part of this because the chicken shits in the GOP are afraid of next Thursday and are trying to stampede us into behaving? :shrug:
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
187. I love your quote
'Dear 33% I refuse to subscribe to the culture of victimization that plagues white males in this country. I don't believe that the poor and the powerless have organized to screw me over.'

Made me smile on this sad day. Thanks.
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rhiannon55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
19. "In case I disappear"...
That any one of us--no matter how public our political views--could even fear such an unthinkable thing here in America....

My heart is broken.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. I feel the same way - and I am afraid. I am terrified, I will get flamed
but I am seriously thinking of telling the ACLU to dump my membership, delete my account at DU and cut all my ties to all political groups. I am so fearful for my small children.
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. No flames here, but don't go that far yet.
I have small children, too. I will get some things in order and make some plans though. I keep thinking that this can't be happening here...
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. I literally cannot stop crying.
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #31
39. It's been a tough day.
I'm a teacher and it's my planning period now, but I lost it first period. When my students asked why I didn't have as much patience as usual today I picked up the paper and read part of an article to them. I didn't tell them everything, but I let them know they should be concerned about our country. :hug:
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. you're a brave woman.
:hug:
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resist_vote on paper Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #41
254. Thats brave?
is it already THAT bad in the US ?

You better find real courage soon, or it will be too late for a damn long time!
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
189. Crying, too....with you
:hug:
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #22
65. Don't go helderheid!
You're one of the best here at DU (and probably at the ACLU as well)! I have small kids too, so I do understand how you feel. Hang in there...
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. you know, that's what I fear the most.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. What do you fear most?
The effect on the small kids?
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #70
75. that I'm one of the best on DU.
:scared:
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #75
78. Hold your head up high helderheid...
and I'll try to be as good as you.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #75
80. Oh! And...
:hug:
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #75
202. Yep, I got that reference immediately.
You really ARE one of the best here, and we cannot afford to lose you! Please take some of those steps back to gain perspective that I spoke of in a post upthread, H, and don't let panic drive you to desperate moves just yet.

I know, that's easy for me to say -- I'm old and disabled and have had my good run while America was still a halfway sane place, still recognizable as a land of the free.

But the truth is, I have been reminded of the Vietnam years so many times since March 2003 that it's downright eerie. I keep seeing things happen in our government now, and I try to remember, and wonder if Nixon (or later Reagan) ever scared us half this much or got half this far.

I honestly don't know, but I do remember only too vividly just how tumultuous our country was then and over quite a long period of time. Everyone was at each other's throats, the divisions among us were rife and intense, and many were so freaked out that they freaked out for real and dropped clean out of the surrounding culture.

But eventually we managed by never giving up and never backing down to STOP the progress toward fascism then, to bring that insane war to an end, and the jackbooted thugs who were scaring us so much seemed to fade away. We got Carter, then later we got Clinton. Each time things turned around and we were able to breathe again.

It seems to be cyclical, but I don't count on that alone to save us. We must still fight, and maybe some of us will have to die -- maybe even a lot of us. But there will never be a time in this country, I believe, when enough of the oppressed will be silent to tolerate complete totalitarianism here. We've had way too much liberty for too long, and that won't be forgotten or easily surrendered.

Do hang in there, H. We need you. And while I totally understand your fears and your thoughts, and your tears, I believe there's still good cause to believe -- and to fight.

:hug: :patriot: :hi:


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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
99. You're not alone, I feel the same...
a lot of us have kids that we are worried about...even more so now...

:hug:
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #22
144. If you have youngsters, get your priorities in order
Let us geezers and non-parents be the shock troops. If you leave, I will miss you horribly, but will understand.

Thinking we might be wise to break into some cells for communication purposes; sort of a Deeper Underground Democratic Underground. And have been only half joking about raising/training carrier pigeons. Sometimes, old tech has its place.

Should our paths not cross again, helderheid, know you are appreciated and respected. Know you have inspired. Know many will stay in the cross-hairs working for the day your children can live in a time of secured liberty again. :hug:
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #144
149. Thank you SO much, havocmom - the same to you - you too
have inspired and are so appreciated! :hug:
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
158. I feel exactly as you do...
I post here, but I sometimes wonder if my words will be
used against me someday.

:(

It's hard to know what to say. I have small children. I fear
for them.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
166. No flames, just deepest sympathy.
I fervently hope you don't leave, though I understand your feelings. What was dismissed as paranoia is now justified caution.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
175. Very reasonable. Kids MUST come first, always.
I hope you have a "thank you" note to Salazar on your list of to-dos.

:nuke:

As a homeless person, I'm much more sure that my demise will be from being homeless, rather than being taken prisoner by this rotten nation. But, then, I don't have kids to protect any longer.

Take good care of yourself, and your instincts! :hi:
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
224. I wouldn't dream...
of flaming you. I'm scared to. I think about my family, and the people I love, and what would happen to them if I became a victim of Bush.
It's not right.
It's not America.
It's...all over.
I don't even know what to say anymore.
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
188. I was just thinking something like this
that we should all tell our loved ones now that if we disappear, if we have some kind of freak event, it wasn't a suicide and it wasn't self-inflicted.

Can we all wear black arm bands, or is that too risky?
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
23. sometimes i edit hubby's work, here's an excerpt from a piece...
moons gone past = 2002...

Roebling, I need to have a word with you for a minute. Gene leaving Rachel with Hagar crackling the atmosphere: with the origin of systemic mystery & play. Girly play stepping off & away with a smile they stand beneath a cone of ceiling light. Some eyes follow their path. Some ears try to listen. But Gene is speaking in low tones with a DeWitts ear inclined to the Tongue Da Dynasty.

And?

Dr. Ricci will be out here all last week. He has already flipped the switch, Roebling. Ive seen it. It is a thing of beauty.

All that chalk dust

Yep.

No more need to haul these tripods too these meters then here & hereafter

Nope.

What about my tumblers? Will they still work? Dr. Ricci say: anything?

No he didnt. But his numbers seem to indicate that even William forego the vein with a great gladness. Think about that. And that will make Angel Face happy ole son. As a nosey excursionist drifts past craning an ear near to where they slow down and nod in the exchange. Picking up the thread on the other side.

Yeah. That would be a good: thing. To see her so happy about William.

That would be a good thing, Roebling. Yes, sir

WellI do like my tumblers.

William likes his vein.

Fuck the poppies of The Mighty Afghanistan.

You got it. A brand new day, Roebling

What about the anti-globalization kids? They come out all right?

Yep. They had to be branded terrorist battlefield combatants, die, walk through the fires of hell, crawl through broken glass, and eat their own shit from a tin cup with their fingers in the process but they came out just fine. Water is free once again.

Good.

Opposite the observation deck a character dialing with a nimble finger and a thumb a slide pot out of which quivers a fine optic fiber that catches the eye of Gene with a glint of the membranes prism light. Looking their way, listening within Gene suggests they part for now until then when Dr. Ricci will sooner than later by rigor of human mind negate the existence of energy itself. A thesis put. The dissolution of: resistance. Moment to moment until: it is there. We are there. We are here. The faith of a: mustard seed. Wee goody! Faiththat will move: a mountain.

Gene & Roebling part Good Brothers upon the shake of human hands held deep at the forearms as the girls approach already busting out the juju they hope, with a wink to each other, that hands jobs will somehow find a place. A proper place in the world: what is to follow.
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
203. Hey, I LIKE that, Bridgit!
Please tell hubby I said so?

:) THANKS for sharing it.


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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
24. It's time for those of us not armed to do so post haste
Before this legislation passed, I figured that nonviolent approaches would be workable toward resolving ongoing issues in this country.

But... I have to say in all honesty that if anyone feels threatened by the passage of this un-American legislation and granting of unprecedented power to the executive, they should immediately arm themselves and be prepared to shoot to kill anyone who tries to take them away. I do believe violence is justified for cases like this. Sadly.
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
26. Considering those who criticize this admin have been accused of
"aiding and abetting the terrorists" I'd say your commentary is reasonable.

Now what? Will a military attorney be the one to bring this to the courts? And, if so - when?

I "think" this question may answer itself:

"If a detainee is not allowed access to a fair trial or to the evidence against him, how can he bring a legal challenge to a court?"

Could this not be the basis for a court challenge? Someone help me out here.
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
27. I'll be sure to notify the following indidivuals in case it happens:
Senator Thomas Carper (D-DE); Senator Mary Landrieu (D-LA); Senator Tim Johnson (D-SD); Senator Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ); Senator Joe Lieberman (D-CT); Senator Robert Menendez (D-NJ); Senator Ben Nelson (D-NE); Senator Bill Nelson (D-FL); Senator Mark Pryor (D-AR); Senator Jay Rockefeller (D-WV); Senator Ken Salazar (D-CO) Senator Debbie Stabenow (D-MI)

I'm sure they'll leave no stone unturned in their quest for justice.

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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. HA! Yes!!
Thank you thank you thank you for pointing out the obvious. :D

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #27
156. Jay Rockefeller was the "kicker." The rest I gave up on long ago...even
though, in fairness, most did vote for the Amendments, and Rockefeller put his own Amendment up. But, Jay Rockefeller who was so concerned that the "Minority Report" on Intelligence Failures done by the Senate, wouldn't get released that he seemed visibly shaken when he gave joint press conference with Roberts. Then we learned he put a letter with his concern about the NSA Spying in his "vault" for safe keeping and released it.

Now, Rockefeller votes for the Bill. What the hell does that say.. His family got to him?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #27
238. Don't forget Congressman Dennis Moore in Kansas
damn bastard.
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HardRocker05 Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
32. Dumping it all on repukes is not accurate- dems have been silent or compli
complicit at nearly every step along the way to the scary place that you accurately describe. Every one of us knows it, and yet you and others here want us to pretend it is a purely dem vs. repub thing, and that all we have to do is elect dems and everything will be fine. If only. Frankly, i think that that way of thinking may be preventing americans from really rising up and restoring the constitution, because they still think that it's just politics as usual, and all we have to do is vote for dems, and everything will be straightened out.
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #32
124. Lies lies all lies, spreading dissension.
Democrats 1. do not have a majority and cannot stop republican legislation; and 2. speak out plenty, but don't get media coverage.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #124
239. That certainly doesn't mean it's okay for them to vote
for legislation this bad.

My Dem congressman voted for this bill and I called his office to let him know he has now lost my vote. I know we need a Dem majority in Congress. (That was the only reason I had planned on voting for him) But when Dems like him vote like repukes, then what difference does party affiliation make?

God damn, he voted to TORTURE people. I cannot in good conscience vote for anyone who thinks torture is okay.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #32
129. You make a damn good point...
and welcome to DU.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
33. Happy Birthday to me
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 10:53 AM by VelmaD
I'm gonna go hide under the bed and sob now. I really miss my country. :cry:

I suppose the good news is we'll all be together at Gitmo for my birthday party next year. :scared:
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #33
42. Well happy B day VelmaD!
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 11:05 AM by acmejack
24 now, isn't it? Don't you just love hexadecimal, it's my favorite numbering system!

Not much of a present, though...
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #33
53. happy birthday, velma d--would you like chocolate cake? I
make a really good one!! of course, I don't know if we will have flour, much less chocolate, in the camps, but I will do my best.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
131. Try to enjoy your B-day, OK?
And think positive....next year we will be discussing the ongoing Impeachment hearings, OK?

We, the people, will take back our country.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
35. Kudos for a well written piece
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Five thumbs up.
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chiffon Donating Member (527 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
37. "Wish you were here" by Pink Floyd
"Wish you were here" by Pink Floyd


That is the song this essay makes me think of, sadly.

There has to be light at the end of this tunnel, hopefully.

The nation needs a tune-up, urgently.

I have seen its demise, recently.

Sometimes I grow weary and want to abandon the fight, regretfully.

But fellow patriots emerge and strengthen my resolve, endlessly.









chiffon


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lazyriver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
38. I can't believe the state we're in
How can we be spreading democracy in the Middle East with the blood of our own young men and women when we don't even practice it here anymore? All my life I believed that such affronts to our basic freedoms could never happen here but now they are happening.

I don't want to believe that expressing one's opinion could lead to enemy combatant status and a trip to Gitmo, but it's starting to sink in a little now. I feel like I'm walking around in a fog of disbelief and that somehow this isn't true.

I wish I could stay here in Denialville. It is so much better than reality but instead, I'll make myself feel better by calling my family and old friends back in NJ and urge them some more to vote Democratic in November. At least then I'll feel like I'm fighting back against this madness.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #38
104. Denialville is where repugs reside. They like it there, it's easy.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #38
117. Welcome to Du lazyriver... I'm sorry we had to meet
under such unfortunate circumstances. Getting control of one of the houses of Congress may be our last chance to undo this worst kind of damage.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #38
135. Go canvassing or do a lit drop for
the Dems...I find the exercise clears my head and reduces my frustration levels.

It works! I prefer it to phonebanking...but I do that when it's raining.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
40. After I saw what they did to steal the 2000 election, I knew this was
the direction they'd take us.

I just foolshly believed there would be a stronger resistence.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
43. K&R Beautifully written, as usual
I can't find words to describe how I feel. My heart broke yesterday, I know that much. I'm in shock I think.

The scariest thing to me is that most Americans don't even know what's happening. When I try to tell people in my family, many of them think I've gone over the edge - and they're smart people, and dems. Only 1 of my 5 siblings really gets it. My parents hate the administration and what they've done to the country, but they don't know how bad it really is. My kids are in their 20's and they just think mom's a little obsessed.

I look at them, and see the majority of Americans. They don't even KNOW. Thank you, "mainstream media", for allowing this complete takeover of our country by a bunch of lying, scheming criminals.

I'm an optimist usually, but my hope is fading. There IS still November, so I haven't lost hope completely.....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #44
119. agreed
I think Will Pitt's posting are generally thoughtful and thought provoking, even when I don't fully agree with them. But I think some people have an over-inflated sense of their own significance. The folks posting here are, to the administration, no more than a pimple on the butt of the universe. They aren't afraid of us, they don't care about us, in fact they view us as useful foil to scare and motivate their base. Leaving aside the fact that the provisions of the law apply to alien "unlawful enemy combatants", I feel completely confident that I, and anyone else, can post pretty much anything they want about the war in Iraq or even about this administration (short of an threat against the physical well being of individuals) without fear of being snatched away. I don't imagine anything I'm going to say will change the minds of those who believe that they face some imminent threat, but then again, nothing they can say can change mind.

This law is an abomination, but not because it threatens me or Will Pitt. Its because it threatens everyone by setting this nation apart from the community of civilized peoples by denying prisoners basic rights and protections and in so doing it renders all Americans more vulnerable to injustices from other countries and makes us all less safe rather than more safe.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #119
139. I was trying to tell myself tht I felt the things you are
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 01:37 PM by truedelphi
Posting was the reality - that really we are all rather insignificant and why would they bother.

Oh they'd bother for the hell of it. I made the mistake of spending an hour on
Alex Jones' Prison Planet.

The Gestapo took away the insignificant - The Shah of Iran's secret police took away the insignificant - And know something? I was almost more afraid of the discussion and visuals on Iran in 1953 than of Germany twenty years earlier.

Will they do to us what they did in Iran? Have innocents in a crowd hurt by bullets or bombs and then say it was the war protesters who committed the atrocity? (remember Rumsfeld wanted environmentalists as a group and religious fanatics as a group included on the list of terrorists in 2001 - luckily he was stopped.) They almost *need* to have a staged drama against the civilians
with our type of crowd to blame.


Be afraid; be very very afraid.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #119
140. denial is there for a reason...
it protects. Obviously you weren't around in the '60's or '70's. Remember Hoover? Go see the new John Lennon movie when it's released.

Dissent is going to be squashed. * is a sadistic meglomaniac. He tortured frogs and branded his fraternity brothers with pleasure.

And why are so many Detainee Centers being built? Who for?
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #140
146. I very much was around for the 60s and 70s
And I very much remember Hoover. While efforts were made to squash dissent they failed miserably. And they will fail again unless we choose to be silent.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #146
215. The youth of today doesn't speak up as
much as I would like...I suppose a return to the Draft would turn that around.

I believe *'s next logical step in his meglomaniacal march thru life is to put an end to dissent. It's hard to be heard from jail.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #140
218. Remember it quite well...

...but I don't recall anything about Hoover either shutting up or locking up John Lennon. Yup, they spy on people... they make lists... they are paranoid asshats.

Dissent is going to be squashed. * is a sadistic meglomaniac.

...and not only that, but the MAJORITY of people in this country don't like him.

So, the bottom line is that if they lock up everyone who doesn't like Bush, there'd be more people on the inside than the outside.

And when we leave Iraq, which we will, there's gonna be a whole lot of people coming with us. Just as there was after Vietnam - we housed 10's of thousands on military bases all over the place. After the last few rounds of base closures, we don't have that sort of mass refugee capacity anymore.

And we're going to need it.

Obviously, there are a few things that happened in the 70's which you do not remember at all.
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holboz Donating Member (641 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #119
193. Just so they don't come after me or someone I know...
Life goes on. As long as they don't come after me or a member of my family, who gives a fuck about this, eh? :sarcasm:

If you chose to ignore the possiblity of what this law is capable of then you're part of the problem, IMO. Remember when the goverment was trying to deport someone like John Lennon because they thought he was subversive? I bet they have Cindy Shehan and Michael Moore in their line of fire with this sort of thing.


WAKE UP BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE. They're nibbling away at freedoms and civil liberties. That's why I'm so outraged.

What line do they have to cross before you get angry? They've stolen elections, they have violated international law, started illegal wars, hold people without charges, admitted to secret prisons...

In my opinion they crossed the line a long, long, time ago and I am PISSED OFF.

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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #44
169. Yes, how silly of us
we should just....go shopping or something. As our Constitution is trashed, our basic liberties are taken, step by step our republic is becoming more like a dictatorship.

I'd prefer to be "out of my mind" than in denial. Yesterday a bill for legalizing torture, and allowing * to decide who is an "enemy combatant" passed the Senate and the House. I'm glad you trust him, I sure don't.
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #44
177. They're a little too jumpy, yeah.
I don't much like the wording of this bill myself, but I tend to agree with another poster (can't remember the name) who said this is just a bullshit political move that'll be overturned by the Supreme Court-another lame-assed attempt to paint Dems as "soft on terrorism."

BushCo don't have the balls to try and institute fascism, because if they did, probably a solid 20 million people would pick up their pistols, and their shotguns, and their hunting rifles, and go march on Washington.

Also, Bill Nelson's up for re-election, and Florida is FILLED with drooling Bush supporters who represent a potential risk to his keeping the seat. Anyone know any of the other shameful 11 have a semi-valid reason?
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
46. they'll probably designate you as a fifth columnist
:P
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nomo Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
47. bump
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
48. I feel ill
Not the general "oh shit I can't believe this is happening I need a drink" ill that I've felt for the past 2 days. No. This is the "I am about to be physically ill" feeling of gut wrenching anxiety that comes from the knowledge that someone you admire and love could be taken from you without warning. The feeling you have when you suddenly realize you've narrowly avoided an awful car crash: it can happen in a second. You can't predict. Hell, you can't even prepare.

In case you disappear, Will: your words will not. Cold comfort, but true.

I hope it never comes to that. Truly, I do. In my estimation, you're a Victor Laszlo, and we need more of them, not fewer, in these times.

Be safe.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
49. yes will, i wondered who will be first.
back in the 60`s i printed a little paper that had a total of three copies...later when i was questioned by the fbi about my yelling at the draft board people i was asked if i still had a copy. now looking back i wonder just who was the informant in my small circle of friends. yes will who is going to be first-will it be you?
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. You more than anyone then should know the sky is not falling.
In fact, as you can see around you every day, things were far worse in the sixties, were they not? You published 3 copies and were questioned by the FBI? Yet today, thousands and thousands of people have conversations, post information, post newsletters, and organize, all on the internet, with no government interference or intimidation of the kind you suffered.

The sky is not falling.

It has always been thus.

Roosevelt did far worse in WWII.

McCarthyism was worse.

Things will turn around. Elect democrats to make sure.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #52
61. yes i also realized this when i started posting here in 2002
i had a mimeograph machine! i had to travel a hundred miles to get a "foreign" papers and "underground magazines",drive to different campus`s to see what was going on, and god forbid,talk on the phone. now i can sit here and the world is at my finger tip..."if one of us are in chains,none of us are free"
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #52
118. Things LOOKED worse in the 60's.
They are worse now.
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #118
126. Yeah, your right, the Chicago "police riot," Birmingham,
Nixon using the IRS to audit enemies, the black marchers having dogs and firehoses set against them, J.Edgar Hoover stalking the land, cointelpro, domestic CIA operations, the acid attack on columnist Jack Anderson, things only seemed worse then.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #126
136. but we had an uncompromised (mostly) media..
We had habeas corpus, we had the presumption of innocence, we had an unshredded Bill of Rights. The tools necessry to right the ship were there, and we had access to them.

The tools have been broken.

Oh, hell.. what's a couple of knocks compared to the framework of the whole damned "of the people by the people,for the people" experiment?
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #136
179. We had Walter
fucking Cronkite.

We are screwed.

Anyone who does not see it is BLIND, DEAF AND DUMB.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #136
221. You realize, of course...

that this stupid law is dead on arrival at the Supreme Court.

...and before you respond by saying that the Supreme Court is biased or on Bush's side here, remember that this very legislation is a flawed attempt to get around the fact that THIS Supreme Court has already said that what Bush is doing is unconstitutional.

One thing about the Court, and it doesn't matter WHO is on it, is that the Court does have its own set of prerogatives. They are not about to say, "Oh looky here... Congress and the President managed to pass a law that, gosh, just prevents us from any meaningful review." No Court - and you can take the farthest right-wing set of justices you want - is going to do that.

The other funny thing about lawyers, and that includes military lawyers, is that they have their own set of prerogatives as well. They still have the duty to zealously represent their clients.

This stuff grinds itself out perhaps more slowly than people would like... but although our system is not designed to be self-correcting at the drop of a hat, self-correcting it is.

Folks, the detention of Japanese Americans during WWII was FAR more egregious than this. We eventually worked it out and, oddly, the most "liberal" Supreme Court after the war was the Warren Court. Bonus points are available for the first poster to correctly state just what Earl Warren did DURING WWII.

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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #49
56. Old Soviet joke
Q. How do you play Russian Roulette?
A. you have six people in a room telling anti-state jokes and you don't know who the informer is.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #56
63. lol......ya that`s funny
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
50. LIHOP OR MIHOP?
Are ya there yet? Just wondering.
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sattahipdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #50
62. seemslikeadream
:hug:
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. HI!!!!!!!!!!!!
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 11:30 AM by seemslikeadream
I HAVE MISSED YOU :hug:

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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #50
143. Yeah Will, which HOP are you?
Just sharing seemslikeadream's curiosity, there was a recent column describing ten different scenarios of what may have happened on September 11, 2001. I was wondering if any of these scenarios match what you believe occured:

WHAT IS YOUR "HOP" LEVEL?
http://summeroftruth.org/lihopmihopnohop.html

Hi seemslikeadream! :hi: So, what's your HOP level? I would say I personally believe in number 5.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
51. So, WHY then didn't the Dems filibuster?
I just don't understand this. Once again, they went right along with the republicans playbook.

William, WHEN have the democrats ever stood up and fought with a unified stance against this administration and the republican Congress?

So many here and at dailykos have said that this is not a big deal because the SC will strike it down as unconstitutional and it's just politics as usual. But can someone please tell me how a person who is not allowed a fair trail is supposed to get a case up to the Supreme Court?

I don't get it. Help me to understand this Will. Please.

I'd hate to see you disappear.
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grizmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
54. I'll declare it right now- I AM AN ENEMY COMBATANT
I'd rather be first in line to the gulag than stand by like a coward as they flush, the Constitution and the writ of habeus corpus, and worse spit on the principles of the Geneva Convention and the War Crimes Act.

I will continue to uphold the letter of the law of the land I once knew, and the international principles recognized by the rest of the world. And in doing so I will proudly call myself an enemy combatant.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #54
69. I think we need to declare the people who've stolen our government
enemy combatants.

I would much rather THEY were the victims.
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grizmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #69
86. Well I agree with half of that
They are the enemy, but chickenhawks NEVER are combatants
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winter999 Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #54
73. Calling yourself an "enemy combatant" is not being an "enemy combatant".
You have to actually do something. Try doing a McVeigh to earn that title.
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grizmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #73
83. Wrong, with this law I could just send a check to an evoronmentalist
group that practices civil disobedience and I'd be considered an enemy combatant.
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winter999 Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #83
88. By my definition, sending money is "doing something".
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grizmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #88
90. oh
so I already qualify


Now what did I do with that Gitmo brochure......
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #88
120. An "enemy combatant" is whoever the administration wants
to call an "enemy combatant". As soon as that switch is flipped, you become a non-person. So, according to the law passed yesterday by the Senate, yes, sending money to someone who is against the Iraq war, for instance, CAN get you classified as an "enemy combatant". There are no safeguards in there. None.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #120
148. all laws can be broken
So if you're saying that the administration could ignore this law and go after US citizens, its hard to argue. But if you're saying that this law could be used as the basis for trying US citizens with the reduced protections accorded by the military commissions and could be legally denied habeas corpus, you are wrong. Under the law doing those things to non-citizens is legal (at least until, hopefully, the courts put a stop to it), but doing those things to citizens is not. They may still try to do them, but the law doesn't allow it.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
55. voiceoutrage.com
Don't keep the outrage to yourself!!

voiceoutrage.com


Call this abomination what it is: The War Criminals Protection Act

(And maybe give this one a kick)
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Efilroft Sul Donating Member (827 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
57. When Bush signs this bill into law, look for a signing statement.
Then we'll all have a better idea where we stand.

Bush was served up authoritarian potency yesterday, more or less. Now we have to see if he'll seize it in full. An obliquely worded signing statement may be all he says to declare such power.

Beware the signing statement.
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grizmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #57
87. I hadn't even thought of that
this could be much worse than we already think
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #57
121. Why the hell should he issue a "signing statement" on this?
He's getting exactly what he wants.
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Efilroft Sul Donating Member (827 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #121
133. I'll give you a few reasons.
The bill as passed by the Senate last night prohibits the severe abuse of detainees, like mutilation and rape, but grants the President leeway to decide which other interrogation techniques are permissible. In a signing statement, he might outright declare that he needs such leeway as mutilation and rape. Think he won't do it? He just might. He has directly contradicted law so many times before in signing statements.

Even worse, from an AP article:
"Those subject to commission trials would be any person 'who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents.' Proponents say this definition would not apply to U.S. citizens."

Bull. Bush's signing statement could declare this, even obliquely. So if there is an attack on Iran before the November election and there are protests in the streets, Bush can say that he has already issued an executive proclamation in the form of his signing statement so that the people in the streets are supporting hostilities against the country. By Bush's fiat, he will order protestors rounded up, and he'll throw away the key. Taken further, any dissent by the Congressional Democrats can be seen as treason.

Congress has given Bush dictatorial powers. All he has to do is use his newly granted unitary executive powers to do what he wants to be above the law. Look for something vague in the signing statement that he can use against his political enemies.

To answer your question, he'll attach a signing statement to make it appear as if he was acting on the up-and-up.

Bush to annabanana: "Oh, you didn't READ the signing statement? Aw, that's a shame. Enjoy Gitmo."
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #133
138. "Proponents say this definition would not apply to U.S. citizens"
The language to protect U.S. Citizens is NOT IN THE BILL. . The aforementioned "proponents" are gonna have to damned well PROVE IT!
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hpot Donating Member (359 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #138
153. U.S Constitution
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 02:23 PM by hpot
All other U.S. laws must conform to the Constitution. The rubber stamp do nothings can write all the Sh*t they want but if it isn't Constitutional, it can be thrown out by the courts.


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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #153
259. I expect Bush to pull an Andrew Jackson in that case
Then we'll really be in an interesting situation...
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #138
195. actually the lnaguage you say isn't in the bill is in the bill
the bill defines the military tribunals jurisdiction in terms of alien unlawful enemy combatants. It also restricts habeas corpus only for aliens.
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enough already Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
58. I'll admit that I'm scared to death after yesterday
I'm trying to be very careful not to walk anywhere alone, to stay in crowds, let people know where I'll be, etc. I can't believe this is actually happening in this country.
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sattahipdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
59. Has anyone seen Sibel Edmonds lately?
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
60. k&r
:(
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
66. well, let's keep fighting for those ideas first and
whatever the case don't disappear with a whimper. Take some bastards with you.

What kind of excuse of a human would call itself American, protecting America's freedoms, while torturing and "disappearing" other Americans?

I'm as unsettled right now as I have ever been in my entire life, but I'm not backing down or changing a thing.

I will still write letters, make phone calls, and vote for the the people who will hopefully set this right, and I will gladly hold the door open for international war crimes extraditions when all of this is over with no immunity given to anyone.

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teriyaki jones Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
67. Will there be smoking in the Gulag?
If I'm going to be disappeared, I plan to start smoking again, in earnest.

Seriously, though, I'm sure this was intended to have the chilling effect it has for those of us who have vocally and visibly protested this administration and its policies.

See you all in the Gulag.

tj
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goddess40 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #67
243. probably as torture to those of us that get sick from the smoke
I'm sure my cell will have loads of second hand smoke pumped into it.
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The_Mule Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
72. Personally, I don't plan on being "disappeared"
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 11:34 AM by The_Mule
Mr. Pitt, your piece was very good.

In my opinion, a very big line has been crossed. I will not suffer it lightly. I ain't wild about everything he wrote, but this is a doozy from Thomas Jefferson:

"...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security...."

I'm going to try to alter or abolish this government in November. If that doesn't work due to something such as a stolen election, then I will find other ways to throw off this despotic government. If they try to disappear me, you, or anyone else, then I will pledge my life, fortune, and sacred honor to stop them. In short, the evil would no longer be sufferable, and I'm stubborn as a mule when liberty is at stake.

I bet I ain't the only one that feels that way.
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doctor_garth Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
74. the sad part is
that all those violations committed by these criminal Republicans were sanctioned by the deliberate silence and inaction of Democrats.

Like Gore Vidal always says, there's only one party in America today, with two wings, the conservative wing, known as Democrats, and the reactionary wing, known as Republicans.
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
76. excellent
when will people wake up already?
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
77. Aye.
N/T
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
79. Another recommendation. This is more like a bad dream
than reality. We can only hope our Bush-stacked Supreme Court will ultimately honor our great Constitution and toss this abomination masking as legislation out on its ear. On the "up" side, after hearing Monica Crowley describe the Gitmo interrogation facilities on MSNBC this morning, it sounds more like a Hyatt resort than a prison. Does she really believe the prisoners are interrogated while relaxing in Barcoloungers?? That a fridge is nearby in case they want a snack?? It's as if we've fallen through a big, black hole into a bizarro universe.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
81. I wish that I could discard your post as complete paranoia... but I can't.
I have considered that language (defining enemy combatants). I have also considered language used recently by bush, cheney, rumsfeld & their minions @ faux 'news', classifying those of us who disagree w/their policies (the majority of Americans, including members of both Houses of Congress) as 'nazi appeasers' & 'terrorist appeasers'. How long before we are 'legally' classified as 'enemy combatants'? Are the Halliburton camps ready yet?

Then They Came for Me

by Stephen F. Rohde, Esq.


First they came for the Muslims, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Muslim.

Then they came to detain immigrants indefinitely solely upon the certification of the Attorney General, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't an immigrant.

Then they came to eavesdrop on suspects consulting with their attorneys, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a suspect.

Then they came to prosecute non-citizens before secret military commissions, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a non-citizen.

Then they came to enter homes and offices for unannounced "sneak and peek" searches, and I didn't speak up because I had nothing to hide.

Then they came to reinstate Cointelpro and resume the infiltration and surveillance of domestic religious and political groups, and I didn't speak up because I had stopped participating in any groups.

Then they came for anyone who objected to government policy because it aided the terrorists and gave ammunition to America's enemies, and I didn't speak up because...... I didn't speak up.

Then they came for me....... and by that time no one was left to speak up.


Stephen Rohde, a constitutional lawyer and President of the ACLU of Southern California, is indebted to the inspiration of Rev. Martin Niemoller (1937).

http://www.janrainwater.com/htdocs/Rohde.htm



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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
82. You won't disappear
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 11:50 AM by Marie26
Too well-known, too many followers. The Lebanese immigrant who donated $30 dollars to a Muslim charity will disappear. The student from Egpyt who's visa just expired. The long-time resident who attends a mosque where the FBI suspects a possible terrorist plot. They will disappear, and they will be just as unnoticed in the real world as they are here on DU. Why is it always about us? Why do people only seem to care about how this will affect liberals, or activists? It may well reach that point, but it's not there yet.

Right now, this bill affects "aliens" - immigrants, residents and non-US citizens, who have been deprived of any right of due process or a fair trial. We've created a seperate judicial system of kangaroo courts, only for certain types of people. The law does not apply equally anymore. For the first time ever in American history, we've created a segregated court system for the "less worthy." And the "less worthy" are the resident aliens who have now been deemed the enemy. This reminds me very much of the internment of Japanese during WWII. I don't mean to sound unfair, and it's true that this bill could eventually extend to any US citizen, but I feel people are overlooking the most likely potential target of these "disappearances" (if they happen). And that bothers me, because it seems to imply that people don't care about abuses as long as it isn't happening to a US citizen. When this bill is signed, any alien can be tossed into a gulag w/no right of appeal, no right to a speedy trial, no right to petition before a judge, and can be executed w/o his sentence ever being seen by a civilian court.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #82
109. what would it take to undo this?
if we can get some "true Dems" in....

Seriously, I want to map out the path to reverse this legislation.

This shall not stand.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #82
123. heh. . . He just won't disappear FIRST.
They'll get around to him, then us.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #123
249. Who will they get to first?
So we agree that this law doesn't target liberals or activists FIRST. Actually, the bill doesn't target liberals at all. It targets "aliens", non-citizens & immigrants to the US. I'm sounding repetitive here, but I think this is a very important point. Right now we know, w/100% certainty, that this bill allows resident aliens to be thrown into detention areas w/o any right of habeas corpus or Geneva Convention protections against torture, where they can face trial & even execution by a military tribunal. These military tribunals cannot try US citizens, and citizens are not subject to this new law. There's maybe some chance that the law will be updated in the future to include citizens, but it does not right now.

So, knowing all this, why are most of the posts on this subject about how activists, liberals, and DU posters will be disappeared? Why aren't people focusing on the most likely victims of this law? I suspect it's because most US citizens don't really care about those people. And that worries me. I want people to know about who is really in danger from this law, so people know who to protect, and what to notice. Immigrants, resident aliens, and visa holders are in immediate danger under this law, and have lost most Constitutional, civil, and human rights. They can be declared an "enemy combatant" at the government's discretion, and thrown into a gulag indefinitely. They have no right to petition a judge to hear their case, and there's no guarantee that the gov. will allow the cases to be made public. They can be "disappeared." That is the truth, and that is what we need to fight against. When this bill is signed into law, I am worried that DHS will just start doing massive sweeps of immigrants, as they did after 9/11. I am worried that we are close to creating detention camps for resident aliens, as they did during WWII. People are putting things on the record, so I wanted to put this on the record. When this law is signed, immigrants, foreign students, and resident aliens may start disappearing. Pay attention.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
84. Thanks for the wonderful post.
I do indeed believe the dream is about to come to an end if the country doesn't wake up!!

Nancy Pelosi & Charlie Rangel could have said it better. (Hugo Chavez) But I guess free speech only pertains to the folks that live in this country.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
89. Another excellent piece, Will.
I suggest only one small correction:

In paragraph 14, you state:

"Consider that language a moment. "Purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States" is in the eye of the beholder,"


After yesterday, this should read:

Consider that language a moment. "Purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States" is solely in the eye of the accuser, with no means of external review, oversight, or correction.
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boise1 Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
91. Watched 'V for Vendetta' last night for the first time
Had to reassure myself I wasn't watching the evening news...
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
92. Will, I have avoided your posts because of some disparaging words you
had for me, but today I did read this piece and it made me cry. Today I would like to make amends and stand with you against the tyranny that faces all of us.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. The disparaging words
were almost certainly me being an asshole. It happens from time to time, and I apologize. :hug:
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #93
96. Peace-my friend.
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
94. I use to Think my Mother a bit paranoid
She is from France and never became a naturalized citizen. She is very political and very antiBush. Ever since the wiretapping thing came out she won't talk politics over the phone. I thought it a bit paranoid. Now, I'm thinking maybe not.
I have written to friends in other countries about how evil Bush is. How much he is really hated. And, of course, talking to family in France. Maybe I'll see you in Gitmo.
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Squeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
97. Word for the day
Ermachtigungsgesetz.

Will, you have nailed it.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. Egads
The Enabling Act (Ermchtigungsgesetz in German) was passed by Germany's parliament (the Reichstag) on 23 March 1933. It was the second major step after the Reichstag Fire Decree through which the Nazis obtained dictatorial powers using largely legal means. The Act enabled Chancellor Adolf Hitler and his cabinet to enact laws without the participation of the Reichstag. The formal name of the Enabling Act was Gesetz zur Behebung der Not von Volk und Reich ('Law to Remedy the Distress of the People and the Reich').

As with most of the laws passed in the process of Gleichschaltung, the Enabling Act is quite short (5 Articles), considering its consequences. The Enabling Act was proclaimed by the government the following day on March 24. Following constitutional procedure for legislation, the law was countersigned by President von Hindenburg, Chancellor Hitler, Minister of Interior Frick, Foreign Minister von Neurath, and Minister of Finance von Krosigk.

Passing of the Enabling Act

In order to gain complete political power without holding a majority in the Reichstag and without the need to bargain with their coalition partners, the Nazis devised the Enabling Act. The Act was intended to grant the chancellor and his cabinet authority to enact legislation without the Reichstag. As a law altering the legislative provisions of the constitution the Act would have to be ratified by the Reichstag by a two/thirds majority. The Social Democratic Party (SPD) and the Communist Party (KPD) were expected to vote against such an Act, but the Nazis knew that the parties representing the middle class, the Junkers landowners and business interests had grown weary of the instability of the Weimar Republic. Hitler reckoned that these parties would be eager to adopt such an extraordinary measure to end the ongoing parliamentary logjam, or at a minimum, would muster only tepid opposition.

Hitler, shortly after being named chancellor of Germany on 30 January 1933, pulled out of the coalition that had been built with centrist parties, instead asking President von Hindenburg to call a general election for 5 March 1933. Of the campaign, in what was one of the world's first use of mass media as a major force in a political campaign.

In the days leading up to the elections, the Nazis organised street violence to intimidate the opposition and build fear of communism. The burning of the Reichstag six days before the election was the pivotal event of the campaign. A mentally-disturbed one-time Dutch Communist was arrested in the building and, while the circumstances of the fire are disputed and will never be conclusively known, the fire was portrayed by the Nazis as the beginning of a communist revolution. With the threat of Communism looming, Hitler's government persuaded President Paul von Hindenburg to authorize several emergency powers in the Reichstag Fire Decree, which (among other things) suspended civil liberties and habeas corpus rights. Decree in hand, Hitler had the Communist Party's offices raided and its representatives arrested, neutralizing their power in the Reichstag.

http://www.germannotes.com/archive/article.php?products...
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #97
108. Okay.
I do hate what happened yesterday. But let's face it, it's not the Enabling Act. We did not just give complete dictatorial powers to Bush. We DID abolish habeus corpus and embrace torture. Bad enough, but still, not "die Ermaechtigungsgesetz".
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Squeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #108
130. Why not?
This law allows POTUS to designate anyone he so chooses an enemy combatant, at his own unanswerable option, at which point that person can be taken into custody and never be heard from again.

I don't see anything in the law (granted IANAL and I haven't studied it closely) that prevents him from bestowing that designation on you and me and Will Pitt based on our views, which are admittedly not in favor of Smirky's conduct of the WOT, regardless of whether he has any proof that any of us have ever *done* anything illegal about it. Indeed, I don't see any reason he couldn't arbitrarily decide that Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi and any other Democrat are potential enemies of the people, and have them removed, in which case the literal goals of the Enabling Act-- to allow the Fuhrer to promulgate laws without the legislature voting on them-- are assured.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #130
207. I think it's a stretch.
The Enabling Act is basically what made Hitler into der Fuehrer. All other polical parties and even the legislature became obsolete through the passage of this act. It also completely castrated the President. As you, Squeech, so eloquently stated, the Enabling Act allowed "the Fuhrer to promulgate laws without the legislature voting on them." Hitler could completely surpass the Reichstag and was no longer forced to strike deals with coalition parties. It gave him complete dictatorial power.

If one wants to draw an analogy of what occured yesterday to the beginnings of Nazi Germany, then the Reichstag Fire Decree would be a much more suitable comparison. This Decree directly preceeded the Enabling Act. Signed by President von Hindenburg in response to the arson "attack" on the Reichstag, tbe Reichstag Fire Decree suspended habeus corpus and civil liberties.

Unfortunately, however, it would not surprise me if something similar to the Enabling Act were next on the Bush agenda. All it would take is another "Pearl Harbor" type of event even more catastrophic than 911. This would probably occur before the election and, of course, Iran would be blamed for it.

That's how I see it. Now let's see if I disappear. :yoiks:
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #130
248. He can't legislate by decree yet
That's the line the Enabling Act drew.

This is on its way to that point. It is uncomfortably close, even. But Bush hasn't - quite - claimed out-of-the-blue legislative authority yet; he's "only" declared the judicial branch irrelevant with this. When he gets the rest of the legislative branch down, then he'll have enabled our disability.

I don't think it matters what this thing didn't give Bush that authority, though. Everything else was bad enough. This is a line that fucking well should not have been crossed, and I categorically refuse to consider even the slightest respect or tolerance to anyone who thinks otherwise.
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MsKandice01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
100. I have a question that hasn't been answered yet...
" The broad powers given to Bush by this legislation allow him to capture, indefinitely detain, and refuse a hearing to any American citizen who speaks out against Iraq or any other part of the so-called "War on Terror.""

Where does it say that he now has the power to indefinitely detain and refuse a hearing to US citizens? I know that the legislation changes the definition of "unlawful enemy combatant" but every where else in the bill the word "alien" is placed before "unlawful enemy combatant". I don't doubt that they will try to detain US citizens but I'm trying to explain this to others and am ending up with egg on my face because I can't find where the bill states that "unlawful enemy combatants" can be detained indefinitely. Can someone please help me? I'm trying to get the word out but I am failing miserably.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #100
105. It is within the definition of "enemy combatant"
that the potential threat to US citizens is found. The language is both broad and opaque. If they decide, for example, that criticism of the administration or the war or whatever amounts to "purposefully and materially supporting hostilities against the United States," that means anyone who speaks out. We've already been called traitors a thousand times. They may decide that criticism of the White House amounts to supporting hostilities, i.e. undercutting the government's policies, etc.

It's all found in that broad definition.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #100
127. you are destined to fail
You are correct that on its face the bill applies to alien unlawful enemy combatants and the meaning of alien clearly excludes US Citizens. The jurisdiction of the tribunals is expressly limited to cases against aliens, the restrictions on habeas corpus are expressly restricted to aliens, the detainee provision specifically applies to aliens.

Now, I'm sure the above statements will provoke posts saying "but but but", claiming that the bill gives chimpy and his gang the power to interpret any and everything to mean whatever they say it does. Whether that is true or not (and I don't think it is) doesn't matter. In a political debate on this topic, if we start with the contention that the legislation will lead to John Q Citizen being snatched from his house in the middle of the night and spirited away to a secret prison for trial before a military tribunal, the other side is going to scoff and succinctly rebut the claim with references to the provisions I described above. If our only answer is to say "but but but", we lose the argument. If it takes a paragraph to rebut an argument that is only a sentence long, we lose because John Q Citizen is going to believe the government would go after him.

And ultimately, it doesn't matter whether the law reaches US citizens or not. Would anyone here stand up and say that they'd support this bill if only it had sufficient protections for American citizens as opposed to non-citizens? I certainly wouldn't. What makes this law bad is not what it does or doesn't do to US citizens, its what it does to the rule of law, the separation of powers, the rights of prisoners, international norms regarding protection from abuse, fundamental rights of due process and ultimately the increased risk it creates by making Americans less safe.
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Castleman Donating Member (166 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
101. Damnit, don't cower and fear!
My fellow Americans!
This is, indeed, pure grade-A Facism by the Bushites, but you know what?
There aren't that many of them.
What kind of an army do they have left after the Iraqi quagmire?
We, my friends, are many.
I will do what I must.
I will speak my mind.
I will never fear.
I will never hide.
What if they come for me?
Let them.
On every box of Remington ammo, it says "The Second Amendment Guarantees The Rest"
I won't go quietly.
They'll fall with me.
And some will say I got what I deserved, but others will see the truth.
They will fight back.
More soldiers will fall with them.
Soon, the soldiers will question why they must die to kill their friends and neighbors.
And then our great nation will be born again as we rise up as one, and restore the America we love.
We outnumber the evil men.
We will win.
My life?
I regret that I have but one to give.

We talk about how this government is disgraceful and wrong and evil, and how the great men who built this nation would be ashamed of it.
Then damnit, don't disgrace their memories!
They all knew they would die if they failed, and many of them knew they would die in course of building this nation.
They didn't fear.
We talk about the sacrifices our ancestors made, as they died in the cause of preserving this nation's freedom when we were attacked.
Then damnit, don't disgrace their memories!
They gave their lives willingly to keep our freedom alive.
They didn't fear.
Many, many people gave their lives to build and preserve this great nation.
If my life is called for to do the same, I can do no less.
I cannot face them in the world after this and say I did not because I was afraid.
I will do what I must.
I will speak my mind.
I will never fear.
I will live free or die.

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hogwyld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #101
167. Amen brother!
We'll stand back 2 back if we have to! I will gladly give my life, if it allows my children to live free.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
102. No need to worry, dude. Check out your rating.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #102
106. Heh
And I've never used eBay before in my life.
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NastyDiaper Donating Member (806 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
103. Sometimes I feel I might disappear as well..
..but while we should not underestimate what * is willing to do, we may be over-estimating their competence.

It's not a war on terror, it's a war on the treasury. And to win that war, they just need to keep it going. In so long as the military is voluntary, and the East keeps floating both the emergency spending and our refinancing, most newscorp lobotomized americans don't give a shit.

This whole thing is not about torture, information, treaties, constitutional law. Bla bla. Personally, I don't think the executive could give a shit about our security. So why does does Bush defend his position?

It's because they have to cover up the fact that the courts would toss out almost every case for lack of evidence. Once again, the administration's arrogance is exceeded only by it's incompetence. And rather than fix it, they just cover it up. No matter the damage it causes nor the laws they break.

So what to do? Give them their trials. That's what we are obligated to do anyway. We have to be brave enough to do what's right. Ignore the cowards who fear that some guilty might get away, just because their accusers have no case against them.

Thanks for the article. Maybe give us a secret code so we know that it's you still writing next week?
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
107. that's what Grandpa thought before being carted off
to the German concentration camp
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
110. Mom's cabin in the woods eh?
Now you just made it easier for them to find you. A few of us on DU have tried, unsuccessfully, to warn the mass DU population for quite some time now. Some of the doomsayers got tombstoned, others like me just get laughed at.

"It could never happen here."

Yeah, right.
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tex-wyo-dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
111. Thanks, Will...
personally, I feel this hole in my stomach like someone near and dear to me just died...it just happens to be my country.

Also, let's not forget about Halliburton's "immigrant" detention centers:

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0418-27.htm
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
112. September the 29th, 2006:
"To the past, or to the future. To an age when thought is free. From the Age of Big Brother, from the Age of the Thought Police, from a dead man... greetings."



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tex-wyo-dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #112
115. Ah, Orwell must have had a crystal ball...
"And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposedif all records told the same talethen the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.'"
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
113. If you go, WE ALL GO...well put, well said....
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
114. Thank you, everyone, for the thoughts and recommendations
We hang together or hang separately.
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #114
161. That sounds a lot like
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 02:48 PM by symbolman
"You're either with us or against us..."

So at this point, what are we to do according to your Sig that accompanies your posts, "follow you", "push you", or "kill you"? :) (That's a joke son, and I say son, because we realised the other day that you are young enough to be my son. Which would be a bad thing as your father from what I understand is 10 times the man you and I are.)

So much drama, so little time.

I'm pretty sure that actual Media people who show up on the radar (Liberal of course) will be taken out first, not internet "conspiracy theorists" which is what they call ALL of us, including you.

Why not just quit the DU and play it safe, you've done it before. If indeed you are considered more than an ass pimple to this admin, as one poster suggested most of us are, it would be your duty as our leader to lay low for awhile as you are much too valuable to us all here. We are going to need you to lead the charge.

I'm not interested in hanging with alone or seperately, this is a Campaign trick by Rove to dishearten Democrats into not voting, outrage them into not voting for DEMOCRATS who voted FOR the dismemberment of the Magna Carta. And in the end Habeus Corpus will be thrown out, and Bush/Rove will get what they wanted all along - what they THINK is protection against international war crimes, winning the 2006 election cycle, and not much else.

Smoke and mirrors, tons of ego all around.

It's too bad Rove wasn't actually indicted. Had that happened he might not have pulled this little ploy, instead been sitting in a cell, or too busy flooding his Depends to dream up something this rancid.

This is not a death blow, some aspects are horrifying, but the fact is they've been "renditioning people" in other countries at our hands for DECADES NOW. All this does is make it Public. And even the CIA is sick of torturing, and know it produces no real valuable information.

One thing I would CAUTION the DU'rs about now is Posting about plans for some kind of Armed Insurrection IN PUBLIC, HERE. That MAY actually get you landed in Jail, which one I have no idea. Please DO NOT say "I'm getting a gun and taking my country back." I believe they can pull some chickenshit on you for that legally. Saying THAT has ALWAYS been dangerous.

Personally I'm going to hit them low with my own book (already have some Hollywood interest in it), and go for environmental movements, they need to know that some of us still have balls, even if we're "tree huggers".

You know how much I'd hate to see you go Will, but I actually WOULD be pained if you got tortured, if that were to happen I would be there for you as a someone they have trained to kill, despite any disagreements we have.

Oddly enough with this bill Bush has UNITED US, more than ever, think about that.

If anything they may go after the admins of the DU for whatever bullshit reason or tactic, at which time, it WILL be RAMBO TIME, to the last breath, They'd better keep their hands OFF of Skinner, and the rest, period. Listen to the Veterans, of which I am one, we know a few things, and in the end the Veterans may turn out to be the most useful members of our society.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #161
181. "You're either with us or against us..."
Really.

I thought it sounded like Ben Franklin.

"We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately."

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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #181
184. Thank god you posted back
I was worried that you'd been disappeared :)

Keep a can of Chef BoyarDee handy just in case, that'll show 'em who's boss... ;)
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #184
185. Hey, don't worry about me
Rumor has it I can kill people just by speaking.
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #185
186. Of course, we all know that...
But wouldn't that be you disappearing somebody?

What was this thread about again?
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #185
227. Beats staring at goats...
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BluePatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
116. K&R
...
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Tigermoose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
122. Look on the bright side...
..we could use someone of your talent in the Ministry of Truth.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
125. Indeed Will, indeed.
It has happened before, it will happen again. Is it happening now, here? We shall see.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #125
142. To quote Hermann Wilhelm Goring, founder of the Gestapo,
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 01:47 PM by mnhtnbb
in the Pulitzer Prize winning novel by Upton Sinclair, "Dragon's Teeth"
(1942)that chronicles the rise of the Third Reich:

"In future there will be only one man who will wield power and bear responsibility in Prussia--that is myself....I know only two sorts of law because I know only two sorts of men: those who are with us and those who are against us."

In the paragraph preceding this little speech from Goring, Sinclair writes,

"Certainly no one could question that it was he (Goring) who had ordered and directed the hunting down and killing, the jailing and torturing, of tens of thousands of Communists and Socialists, democrats and pacifists, during the past three and a half months."

The Nazis were all about black and white--right and wrong--and they provided the definition. That is what is so scary with the Bushies.

They see things the same way.

p. 292 in the Permabook edition printed 1961 (Part II of Chapter 18:I Am a Jew)
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
132. Is it tinfoil to call it the F word?
Ya know, FASCISM?!

Honestly Will, I think what's going on now qualifies whether you're using Mussolini's definition, Hitler's definition, or any dictionary you please. It's actually been that way since the passage of the Patriot Act, but yesterday's legislation takes us one step closer to totalitarianism. Any scenario of a gulag (or in the case of anyone posting here a DUlag) set up for progressives in the wake of this legislation is no longer out of the realm of possibility.

:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
134. Unlikely
Not impossible but very unlikely. What is more likely is that many of our Muslim sisters and brothers and the so-called "illegals" are carted off to the american gulags. And then the real test begins for us. Do we stand out in the streets to support them at that point taking real risks or do we turn away?

There is an aroma of American exceptionalism here that simply elides over pretty much all of the material facts of America's bloody history.

Yes, the gloves are off the curtain is drawn but it's pretty much always been heading this direction and has always been this way for a vast number of people who lived in this Empire.

Calling MLK, Eugene Debs and Father Daniel Berrigan.
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northamericancitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #134
162. Good point, Jcrowley. The first to go will be the ``others``.
I feel for all of you my American friends.

lise
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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
137. Catmandu57 was here
I'll leave these words for posterity, because I know either way Pitt's threads are going to wind up saved for the future.
If we wake up in time to pull out if this nosedive, we'll be remembered through history as leaders of the revolt.
If we fail and wind up in the Gitmo's planned for us, then they'll keep these threads for evidence.
If I see long time posters disappearing, if I suddenly stop posting then I will have been disappeared, and any of you that are still around you better head for higher ground.
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IWantAChange Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
150. WP - one helluva post...............
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 01:56 PM by IWantAChange
I can only hope that the true REAL power in this country - the individual American citizen - wakes up and notices that his future is different than any day of his past. I believe that Americans of Islamic descent will be facing a much different environment if and when this legislation passes. The initial changes will be subtle in nature, but they will not be for the better. As concerns the rest of us, the repugs will have in place a mechanism whereby they can squelch dissent by legal means - whether its though eavesdropping, illegal search or even detention. Will they use it? I don't know for sure - but if I look back over the last 6+ GWB years at pure lies and 'untruths' that are still taken as facts by a meaningful % of the total population - I discount nothing as being possible.
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novalib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
151. POWERFUL. PROPHETIC.
I sit here with tears in my eyes as I read what you wrote, Will Piit.

As usual, your writing is so powerful -- and so prophetic.

A person of your stature -- someone who DARES to speak the TRUTH TO POWER -- and who does so very publicly -- is on the list.

I would ordinarily caution you to be careful.

BUT -- DO NOT GIVE UP!! CONTINUE TO SPEAK THE TRUTH TO POWER!!

Make THEM unconfortable.

Be unrelenting in your attacks.

Because, if you do not, they will have WON!!

RESIST!!!!!

DEFY!!!!

SPEAK OUT!!!!

THE PEOPLE UNITED SHALL NEVER BE DEFEATED!!!!

WE WILL PREVAIL!!!!!!!!!!!
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The Cleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
152. All I Can Do Is Sigh.
That was my reaction. Deep sigh.

Sadness. Grief. Confusion. Disbelief.

How could our country have come to this? And what can we do to rescue it?
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Efilroft Sul Donating Member (827 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #152
154. "In darkest night, the stars shine brightest."
I wrote this in another thread, but since the thread fell so far so quickly (typical me, the thread-killer), it merits being posted here as well:

September 28, 2006 was a dark day in our history. Our elected representatives gave unwarranted power to George Bush while shredding three of the greatest documents in human rights: The United States Constitution, the Geneva Conventions, and the Magna Carta. A dictatorship was enabled, and all Bush has to do is declare it. We see this threat for what it is for, yet our elected officials do not. In our souls, we feel the night-tide creeping over us.

Now, however, is not the time to give in to despair and disappointment. Now, more than ever, we must stand strong for all that we know is right with America. Knowledge is power and we, my fellow Americans, are the lights in the dark. We must lead the way back. It is our duty. Shine.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
155. It's less paranoia and more of a concern now.
At the risk of slipping into melodrama, may godspeed.

What a shitty, fucked-up time this is for our besieged Constitution.
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flying_wahini Donating Member (856 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
157. it wouldn't hurt to start shopping real estate in another country.....
I do, often.
My husband says I am being "hysterical". I usually say,
the people that left Germany before the war broke out were also
called hysterical. However, many that moved Far Away survived, and so did their
families. Also get your passport renewed and make sure your kids have one too.
If you have relatives that live elsewhere, it wouldn't hurt to keep in touch.
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followthemoney Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
159. I pledge allegiance to the DREAM of the United States of America...
and to the republic for which it STOOD, one nation under LAW, indivisible with liberty and justice for ALL.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
160. K & R!
Will, at no time were we doubters thinking foolishly. Too many people have said that this could never happen in America. Once Bushista puts his sig on the bill, the heinous crimes of the Central American Death Squads, the Nazis, the Soviets, Pol Pot, etc can happen in America, legally! :(
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
163. Help Unseen, Unbidden
Mr. Pitt -

First, either you've got awesome parents for giving you that name, or else you've chosen a great pen name! My favorite William Pitt quote came when he defended the seditious rebels in America: "The gentleman asks, When were the colonies emancipated? I desire to know when they were made slaves."

(Seems appropriate nowadays, eh?)

Secondly, if you're a Tolkien fan, just remember that help comes from unseen, unbidden quarters when you least expect it (and often when things look their bleakest). The Eagles always managed to turn up at just the right time, to turn the tide.

There are plenty of independent-minded, moderate, thinking Republicans left - who prize their inalienable American birthright much more highly than their party affiliation. Many of us were raised in Democratic/union families, and plan to engage in an act of true loyalty and patriotism this year: namely, voting against extremists in our party, to help restore checks and balances (not to mention sanity) to American domestic and foreign policy.

To wit, today's SEC filing under the Halliburton ticker: http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?company=smith+d...

An excerpt follows:

"Or, as a great American, great trust buster, and great Republican President once said: 'No man is above the law, and no man is below it; nor do we ask any man's permission when we ask him to obey it'. We used to be the party of Honest Abe and Teddy the Trust Buster. Now we seem to be the party of Macaca-mamie excuses and clairvoyant Miss Cleos who fancy themselves to be Presidential timber in 2008. Allegations of pretexting by a California-based company seem to spark outrage among the GOP leadership, but allegations of violations of the FCPA by a Texas-based company with significant ties to this Administration seem to have caused an outbreak of flightless avian flu (symptoms include majority-party Senators sticking their heads in the sand, like ostriches, and hoping the problem will go away). Of course, that's just my opinion."

Hang in there, and don't go running off to that safe room just yet.

Best regards,

- David A. Smith (or, just "Dave")
(not to be confused with David R. Smith, VP of Tax at Halliburton)
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #163
231. Welcome to DU, CorpGovActivist!
:hi:
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Niche Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
164. Beautiful. Thanks Will Pitt!
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
165. We'll know to look for you in the same gulag
Randi Rhodes, Mike Malloy, Greg Palast et al will probably disappear into. Never give up the truth. Do be cautious especially now. We've all got your back.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
168. I'm glad your feelings have changed, Will.
Too much of what has been laughingly dismissed as tinfoil at DU is proving true.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #168
173. My feelings haven't changed
I am able to separate this mess from the simple need to vote straight-Dem in November. The fact that I want the House back doesn't ameliorate anything.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #173
180. I wasn't talking about voting for Dems. I was addressing the
all too frequent dismissal of "conspiracy theories" on DU. "I always laughed and shook my head whenever I heard this stuff. Extreme paranoia wrapped in the tinfoil of conspiracy, I thought." From these words of yours, I thought I detected a change of heart. Sorry If I was mistaken.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #180
183. Funny you should mention this
Got an email today from a Truth Movementer. It read, and I quote directly:

"You have the opportunity to bring the many people who access your work to their senses but there is no way through without illuminating the truth--to the extent it will ever be--of what happened on September 11. I would start with the new evidence that is accumulating of the use of nuclear devices to blow up the World Trade Center. Do not sit back in disbelief any longer if you can avoid it. Time is very limited."

OK? I'm allowed to be skeptical of the theories. You wouldn't *believe* how many emails like this I get every single goddam day.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #183
201. Yeah, but:
"It seems, perhaps, that the people who warned me were not so paranoid. It seems, perhaps, that I was not paranoid enough."

does denote a change in your feelings, for which you were being praised. I, too, see that every day brings news that makes the most paranoid notions about the neofascists' intentions seem less paranoid. I think that we're all adjusting our attitudes--even the wingers who proclaim their loyalty ever more loudly.
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
170. Thanks for this
I forwarded your piece to my family members, the ones that just don't get it. Your words express, to the point, the position all of us are in. Peace to you. Kim
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dennis00 Donating Member (216 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
172. define "enemy combatant"
Does "purposely and materially supported hostilities against the United States" include the actions of Bush and the 12 democrats who voted for the destruction of the Constitution as hostile to the United States? In my mind they are the hostile enemy.
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
174. You'd better check in every day Will - so we can keep an eye out...
That way we'll know if you're still free, alive and well or not.
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pwb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
176. hey !! your suppose to be scared remember?
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
178. Be Damned If That Didn't Bring A Tear To My Eye.
I don't know what else to say...
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #178
190. WHAT THE HELL ARE WE GONNA DO??????????!
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bleedinglib Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
182. Dear Casper ??
We're all getting a little thin in the skin? The only way we can tell if we need to be afraid? is if the repugs retain control of congress this november? They will haft to rig the vote machines in order to win? and then we can bend over and kiss our butts good by?
There's noooo way they could win under normal circumstances?
B-LIB
( I know of a few secret caves around my area )
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Swede Atlanta Donating Member (906 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
194. Bingo
Anyone that has posted here, even logged on here. Anyone who has said a less than flattering word about the current administration. Anyone who attended a rally against the war. Anyone who had a Kerry bumpersticker on their car or dared to vote for him. All of us here in the DU community are now at risk. We can be arrested without any probable cause, whisked off to Gitmo or even worse and kept there until we die without our families having any information. We cannot challenge our detention under the Constitution, this right was taken away by this legislation.

Based on what I understand, this has changed this country into a Gulag-style Soviet dictatorship. We should all be afraid, very afraid.
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Timbuk3 Donating Member (727 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
196. Nothing left but dirt
"Without the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, we are defending dirt."

http://www.timbuk3.com/patriotism.htm
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
198. Dibs on the laptop.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
199. When they come for me I will scream loud enough for all of
you to hear me, after I bite off someone's nuts!
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
200. The Supreme Court hadn't "compelled" this bill.
We have courts in the US. We should use the existing courts to try suspected terrorists.

We shouldn't create courts in Cuba, and the Supreme Court didn't say we should.
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dollydew Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
204. Oh Will
This isn't right. My heart bleeds. Don't give up the dream. Sometimes it's all we have. Remember, I have a dream... (MLK).
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KatyaR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
205. God, Will, you're scaring the crap out of me.
It's one thing to hear about what happened yesterday, but to see it actually written in black and white scares me to death. Who would have ever thought we would be facing a future like this?

I can't get my mind off this since yesterday. Everything I do or say is now clouded with hesitation. Add that to the fact that I work for a "Christian" employer who would probably fire me if they knew how liberal I am, and I'm totally freaked out.

You stay strong, Will--and that goes for all of us. If we go down, we go down together.
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dalaigh lllama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
206. "The dream was here, and so was I, and so were you."
Crying for America that was...
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Chomp Donating Member (602 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
208. So the US governement is on the brink
of becoming a crypto-Nazi entity, replete with a Thought-Police ready to bust anti-Warriors, liberals, DUers and various other sandal-wearing types the moment they step out of line?

Is that what we're talking about here? Is that what people honestly think is going to happen?

Harrumphh. Nonsense.

Profiling brown people? Sure. Locking up shady Arabs indefinitely for no better reason than they once met OBL? No problem. Invading countries and lie about the reasons.? You bet. Trying their best to brow-beat and hassle peaceniks? Definitely.

But brand nice middle class white people "enemy combatants" and lock them up? Mass efforts to curtail their freedom of speech? The Boyking having the right to lock up his domestic critics cause they disagree with him?

Give. Me. A. Fucking. Break.

People here have every reason to be worried about the shocking erosion of civil liberties in the US. But for them to think that they are/would be the direct victims of it is just ludicrous and, with respect, utterly egocentric.

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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #208
210. Two questions:
So why is it okay to lock up a bunch of people who just happen to be Arabs or the wrong color? That isn't okay with me, in the very first place.

And now that What's his name can lock up anybody that pleases him, don't you think that he might just have a little bit more power over his enemies? The ones he wants to be quiet? The ones he wants to intimidate? And the ones who bother him with their criticism (okay, three questions), do you really think he will restrain himself because they are -- how did you describe them? -- regular middle class Americans?

You mean those "dangerous leftists" on the Internet?

Okay, so I meant a bunch of questions.

Why do they arrest anyone wearing a t-shirt that insults our fearless leader? Why did they arrest Cindy Sheehan? Now when they arrest her, we may never see her again.

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Chomp Donating Member (602 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #210
213. I think you misunderstood me EM
on your first point...

I didn't mean it was ok by me to lock up random Arabs. Of course it's not. Rather, I meant that the US governement has no problem with it and indeed is shaping law to allow them do it (that is the point of all this legislation).

So my point was that they have no problem cutrailng these peoples' liberties: but they would have a huge problem doing it to the majority of people posting in this thread. They have no hesitation doing it to nameless brown ragheads - but they are not trying to do it to named middle class peaceniks.

You ask: "do you really think he will restrain himself because they are -- how did you describe them? -- regular middle class Americans?"

My answer: Yes. That was the exact point of my post. For people here to think they are the ones these peple are after is ludicrous.

You ask: Why do they arrest anyone wearing a t-shirt that insults our fearless leader? Why did they arrest Cindy Sheehan?

My answer: because these are the bog-standard and cack-handed efforts of a right wing government to control propaganda in a "time of war". This kind of stuff has been happeneing in civilised Western democricies forever, and forever will be. But this is run-of-the-mill pathetic political hackery and NOT some desperate attempt to institiute totalitarianism, as the majority of people in this thread seem to be insinuating.
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
209. SPEAKING TRUTH TO POWER: WILLIAM RIVERS PITT
Pitt weaves beautiful, reverberating truth to Bu$h's raw, obscene power. Thank God for Will Pitt. Thank God, too, for Keith Olberman. God protect them, and us, from the Beast that is Bu$h.
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EnfantTerrible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
211. All done with
Dem complicity. C'mon Will. You really think you can let them off the hook that easily? It's not all Republicans in the Yea column. I know, the Dems are just waiting for the most opportune time to actually stand for something. You should be mad as hell and pointing fingers in every direction. Though by pointing only at the Repugs you point at Dems by extension. It's all one and the same. Playing Politics and business as usual.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #211
217. If it really comes down to this, it will be a class war...

Once again I'm getting a little disgusted with depressing threads, especially when there are reasons to be optimistic for the first time in 6 years. Maybe these feelings getting strongest at the peak are the sign of a turnaround.

Its true that when basic laws supporting the very Constitution and Bill of Rights are changed everyone should become extremely concerned, including moderate Republicans.
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EnfantTerrible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #217
220. It's always been a class war
There is no future tense.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
212. Sad but great piece of work Pitt
Thanks
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
214. We will gather outside the gates of power in silent protest - - - - >PIC
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
219. shoulder to shoulder
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 09:23 PM by proud patriot
and back to back my friend :patriot:
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
222. Those Son of a Bitches in the White House
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 10:13 PM by kster
Have done it again, they have successfully, changed the subject at the DU, and everywhere else, right before an election and everyone is following their lead.

I'm ashamed, we let them get away with this shit time and time again and it works because we are scared shitless, when our Government in reality has put our MILITARY :patriot: in GRAVE DANGER, and all we can do is sit here and talk about is how scared we are, SCREW THE GOVERNMENT, who to date remain silent about their SECRET VOTE COUNTING MACHINES.

SCREW THE GOVERNMENT, who would put our MILITARY :patriot: in danger, to save their asses. Now is not the time to be afraid of these bastards.

Its time to speak up and fight with everything we got!

Think about what you were doing and saying, before the Government successfully changed the subject, and start saying and doing it even harder.

DON'T LET THEM CHANGE THE SUBJECT!






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Crabby Appleton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
223. I don't think you actually read the act, Will
you write:


Consider that language a moment. "Purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States" is in the eye of the beholder, and this administration has proven itself to be astonishingly impatient with criticism of any kind. The broad powers given to Bush by this legislation allow him to capture, indefinitely detain, and refuse a hearing to any American citizen who speaks out against Iraq or any other part of the so-called "War on Terror." (not true, read the act, link below)

If you write a letter to the editor attacking Bush, you could be deemed as purposefully and materially supporting hostilities against the United States. If you organize or join a public demonstration against Iraq, or against the administration, the same designation could befall you. One dark-comedy aspect of the legislation is that senators or House members who publicly disagree with Bush, criticize him, or organize investigations into his dealings could be placed under the same designation. In effect, Congress just gave Bush the power to lock them up. (not true, read the act)

By writing this essay, I could be deemed an "enemy combatant." It's that simple, and very soon, it will be the law. I always laughed when people told me to be careful. I'm not laughing anymore. (not true, read the act)


Unless you are asserting that you are an alien or have joined a military organization of such nature as to meet the definition of a lawful enemy combatant then the provisions of the act do not apply to you.

The phrase "Purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States" is in the section describing unlawful enemy combatants, and the act states the military tribunal provisions apply to alien unlawful combatants, with alien being defined as a non-US citizen. Likewise the SEC. 7. Habeas Corpus Matters specifies alien.

You may not like the act for many other good reasons, but the free speech and free assembly examples you cite above don't make you an alien unlawful combatant, nor meet the description of a lawful enemy combatant.

You can read the whole thing at:

http://10startups.com/Bill.html

Sec. 948c. Persons subject to military commissions

`Any alien unlawful enemy combatant is subject to trial by military commission under this chapter.

or meet the definition of a Lawful enemy combatant then the provisions of this act do not apply.

some excerpts:


Sec. 948a. Definitions

`In this chapter:

`(1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT- (A) The term `unlawful enemy combatant' means--

`(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces); or

`(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.


`(2) LAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT- The term `lawful enemy combatant' means a person who is--

`(A) a member of the regular forces of a State party engaged in hostilities against the United States;

`(B) a member of a militia, volunteer corps, or organized resistance movement belonging to a State party engaged in such hostilities, which are under responsible command, wear a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance, carry their arms openly, and abide by the law of war; or

`(C) a member of a regular armed force who professes allegiance to a government engaged in such hostilities, but not recognized by the United States.

`(3) ALIEN- The term `alien' means a person who is not a citizen of the United States.

--snip--



`(b) Lawful Enemy Combatants- Military commissions under this chapter shall not have jurisdiction over lawful enemy combatants. Lawful enemy combatants who violate the law of war are subject to chapter 47 of this title

==snip--

SEC. 7. HABEAS CORPUS MATTERS.

(a) In General- Section 2241 of title 28, United States Code, is amended by striking both the subsection (e) added by section 1005(e)(1) of Public Law 109-148 (119 Stat. 2742) and the subsection (e) added by added by section 1405(e)(1) of Public Law 109-163 (119 Stat. 3477) and inserting the following new subsection (e):

`(e)(1) No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.



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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #223
246. Hey! Don't let facts get in the way of good self-aggrandizing paranoia!
What the heck's the matter with you?
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #223
250. Exactly, thank you. nt
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
225. Camelot!, Camelot!, Camelot!
"It's only a model."
"Shhhh!"

Good luck to us all, wherever the future drags or detains us.
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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
228. Thanks for this. Well done. n/t
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leanin_green Donating Member (823 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
232. Why do lines from Spartacus take on new meaning now?
Crassus: "The lists of the disloyal are known, the prisons begin to fill."

This legislation(?)is the act of a paranoid and fearful mind. By provoking us, he rouses us. I say it's time to give him something to really fear!
However, I suggest the time will be better after we go into Iran. Won't be so many National Guardsmen to keep order here at home.

There, you insipid little wimp, will that do it?! Does that pass muster for being an enemy combatant? If I disappear I plan to be a cancer in the belly of the beast. This little creep is so afraid that he can't help but create more of what he fears with this crap! Except, this time, the enemy combatants will be from within. You just keep on doing what your doing, Mr. President. Your creating your own demise.

Ceasar: "Did you fear him, Crassus?"
Crassus: "When he was I alive I didn't fear him, because I knew he could be beaten. But now I fear him. Almost as much as I fear you, dear Ceasar."
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 04:30 AM
Response to Original message
233. if you're not doing anything wrong you've got nothing to worry about
can you believe people are naive enough to say this? It's like they know NOTHING of the history of the world.
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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
236. Best piece YOU have ever written...
Beautifully lays bare all we have lost and all that we have to fear...
Thanks and take care...
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enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
237. Well done.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
240. Will points out A VERY important thing, here
Edited on Sat Sep-30-06 09:12 AM by Canuckistanian
If a detainee is not allowed access to a fair trial or to the evidence against him, how can he bring a legal challenge to a court? The legislation, in anticipation of court challenges like Hamdi and Hamdan, even includes severe restrictions on judicial review over the legislation itself.


For all those who say this is all a bit of "street theater" and that the SCOTUS will smack these laws down eventually forget about this point.

Excellent piece.

K&R

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Lost-in-FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
241. No problem
Look at the bright side; Once the Democrats take the WH, it will be easier to place the Republinazi Administration to Guantanamo and torture them.

Seriouly tho, I am well aware of what all this means to all of us. Then I look around and see people living like everything is ok, concerned with making sure their kids have their homework ready or about the latest drama on TV. I would love to be that uninformed and I try now to enjoy one day at the time until who knows.
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Lochloosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
242. Kick
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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
244. It is time for CBS to rerun that story about the news man Fighting Hitler
Got Fascism Yet?
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
247. got a little choked up, reading that last sentence out loud to my mom
and my daughter.

:cry:
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
251. You're safe as long as you don't say 9/11 was an inside job
And since you seem to be avoiding that topic like the plague (except to point out kooky conspiracy theories and asserting that those discredit the entire 9/11 truth movement), you're quite safe for the foreseeable future.
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boobooday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
252. Who will enforce it if there are more 'enemy combatants'
than enforcers?

Will they hire Blackwater to outsource the imprisonment and/or torture of American citizens?

They want us to shut up. That is why we must never, ever, shut up.
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sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
256. The groundwork has been being laid by the RW talking heads
Edited on Sun Oct-01-06 07:14 AM by sistersofmercy
It's been said thousands of times in sound bytes, "Liberals are aiding and abetting the terrorists through criticism of the pResident." How many times has it been said by Ann coulter et al? The concept has been introduced and now it's simply an accepted view in RW groups. Isn't the state of emergency still in place? There is an executive order pertaining to the military that has similar wording describing "purposefully and materially supporting hostilities against US." The groundwork has been laid, "Desent is not patriotic" to "Desent is aiding and abetting terrorists." Quite a sad state of affairs.
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
257. Will, are you now or have you ever been a member of...
any political party other than the GOP?

Such is today's sorry-assed litmus test for "Real American" citizenship.

The gulag will be crowded.
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-02-06 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
260. Excellent, just excellent
By far your best to date sir.
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