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President doesn't think Dems will win either House... and neither do I

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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:05 AM
Original message
President doesn't think Dems will win either House... and neither do I
I asked him if he thinks Democrats will win a majority in Congress in the November election. "I don't think they're going to win," he stated. "I don't believe they'll win it, because I believe that these elections will come down to two things: one, firm belief that in order to win the war on terror there must be a comprehensive strategy that recognizes this war is being fought on more than one front; and two, the economy." He did lament that some Republican candidates think they can win by distancing themselves from his policies, noting that could send a message that people who do such things are political opportunists. He implied such a strategy might turn off the GOP base. The president said 12 to 15 races would decide who runs the next Congress.

That view was endorsed by a top White House strategist (Rove?), who forecasts a post-election spread of 52-48 or 53-47 in the Senate, with Republicans maintaining their majority, and a loss of eight to 12 seats in the House, but with the GOP still in charge. With the president's approval numbers slowly rising to the mid-40s, the strategist say that all Republicans need is a couple more points to be OK.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/09/the_stubborn_president_bush.html


At first glance, one must wonder what dream world these guys are living in... and then the nightmare sets in...

Diebold, voter roll purges, ID cards, disenfranchisement, broken machines, long lines, confusion, "honest" incompetence, Diebold, erratic vote totals, sequestered counting, secrecy, Diebold, intimidation, provisional ballots, spoiled absentee ballots, lost ballots, deception... and did I mention Diebold?

If I were a betting man, my money would be on the GOP to retain control of our government. Nothing in the past 6 years has given me any indication that this election will be any different than all the other recent elections.

When they win, you'll hear... "Sure, there was some dirty tricks and a few "anomalies" but not enough to affect the outcome of the elections." "Stealing an election is too hard, think about how many people would have to keep quiet. These guys can't keep anything a secret." "You can believe what the kooks in this country believe but the fact is, the GOP won and these guys are just wallowing in sour grapes." Oh, it's enough to make you sick, I tell you. I can already hear the talk of a "clear mandate" and the remarks about a "re-energized President".

This win will be heralded as a total acceptance of the Presidents crimes and will be used as a bludgeon to beat the Democrats to death with ignorant slogans like... "Democrats just didn't have a plan." "Democrats floundered all over the board and couldn't connect with the average voter, why are they so disconnected from reality?" "The thought of having Democrats control any branch of Government truly frightens Americans." "God told me, George, I'm gonna give you the Congress just this one last time, do something great with it. Invade Iran or Syria and get rid of those murderers over there... and so we will."

Maybe, just maybe, my premonition won't come true. Maybe we will win the House... if only just the House, what a blessing that would be... maybe their dirty tricks will fail or they'll be too afraid to try... maybe Americans will muster up enough pride and courage to finally stand up to these hucksters... Maybe, just maybe... but I've been thinking that since 2004 and would have been thinking that since 2000 had I been paying attention. Maybe this time it will be different but I doubt it.

So here's to 2 more years of total GOP domination... :toast: Though to toast this bitter draught brings only this to mind...


...he said, 'Now, good sir, you understand these things. What must I do?'

'Just drink it and walk around until your legs begin to feel heavy, then lie down. It will soon act.' With that he offered Socrates the cup.

The latter took it quite cheerfully without a tremor, with no change of color or expression. He just gave the man his stolid look, and asked, 'How say you, is it permissible to pledge this drink to anyone? May I?'


So here's another toast of American Hemlock... "To the GOP" :toast:

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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. So, you believe the Chimp?
Do you also believe other things that the Chimp says?
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
21. Mike thinks Sat nite is fright night..
You have too much time on your hands Mike and your pseudo propaganda really sucks!
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
41. Who Is He Referring To When He Says "President"?
That's what I want to know.
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
44. I believe he has a corrupt enough machine
between the media suck ups and his Repug vote counters, it is possible to skew the returns. For staters they have been masters at gerrymanding , so US elections are about as meaningless as they have ever been. You are saying US elections reflect the general will. ?
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
85. Read the post
He's saying he thinks the election will be stolen.

Did you think you had a GOP plant on your hands? :)
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Sperk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. these THUGS will NEVER allow themselves to be voted out....
how can anyone still doubt that? There very lives depend on it.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
43. I Believe They Would Kill, But
I STILL have hope, plenty of it.
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. Well, it's not like they haven't already decided...
...which races they're going to steal.
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Independent_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. God, you're such a downer!
You're getting everybody depressed. It's not time for that.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Expect the worst but hope for the best.
dems better not a take a thing for granted in this election. The Repugs have a lot to lose if Dems gain a majority in the House &/or the Senate.
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WhiteTara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
34. hope you're working on this issue by
calling writing letters talking to everyone you meet or in any other avenue you can think of and do, because if not, he's right and optimism will not help. :hi:
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rubberducky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
5. I pray that you are wrong,but........
I fear that you are right.
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Independent_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. If we keep saying it's going to be stolen, we're only going to attract it
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 01:27 AM by Independent_Liberal
by dwelling on it. If it is, it will be because we didn't bother to fix things and just sat around and bitched and moaned. Defeatism like this is why things don't get done.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. It would be stolen because Repubs did it regardless of Dem feelings
A person can't bitch about stolen elections while trying to correct it? They're not necessarily mutually exclusive.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
6. I might just let fly and call a flip for both chambers.
18-23-seat pick-up in the House; and we win the Senate with a 6-seat pick-up in OH, MT, PA, VA, TN, and RI.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Huzzah! I'm on YOUR side!
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Yep. Let's kick us a little red butt on Nov. 7th.
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Parisle Donating Member (849 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
10. Okay,....... Then what?
---- A much larger question by far is,.. "if you feel certain that elections are being stolen, what are you prepared to do about it?"
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. The same thing I'm doing now...
spending my free time discussing the reality of our election process and working to shift those who are in denial to anger and move those who suffer from depression to acceptance.
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Screw "acceptance!"
If I didn't know better, I'd think you were a plant from the Dark Side...
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Unless we can accept reality, we can never act on it...
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 02:33 AM by mikelewis
The reality is, our elections are being stolen right before our eyes. When people begin to accept that fact then we can begin to stop it. Acceptance does not mean acquiescence. Acceptance is realizing that since "they" are prepared to kill for what they want then we must be willing to accept death to stop them. Acceptance is seeing the reality of a situation and resolving to either ignore it or fight back. When this prophesy comes to pass, then come tell me I'm a plant for the Dark Side. My post is telling you that the Dark Side exists and it is coming. It's time we all swallowed that bitter pill and come up with a plan to stop it. Otherwise... we can have this same discussion in '08 if you like.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. If the GOP wins again, so be it
We have seen our citizens adjusting to a lesser life, lower expectations of a chance to succeed, lesser expectations to have a good education for our children, or decent medical clare for our masses.

We have seen the GOP drain the working class wealth for war and empire building, and tax cuts to the rich. We have seen the GOP hailing this as the right way to go.

It is not as if we didn't see it coming. The GOP and the bushbots want to turn our country into a third world nation and they are gung ho on doing it.

You will see crime rates grow, suicide rates grow, homeless rates grow, and a general depression in what was once a great nation.

Let them keep on governing as they did the last six years. Maybe the average citizen will finally rise up and yell enough...or sink further into the midst of a third world nation.
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
37. I already "accepted" that Republicans cheat
but I'm not ready to accept that they will get away with it yet again or that we will allow them to. I am just one person but I do what I can to hold my elected officials feet to the fire to make sure we don't get screwed again. I've marched before in protest of the election certification of * and will again if they do it again. I also think that Dems are going to win in a huge number and that will make it nearly impossible for them to skew results.

I will never aquiesce to these crooks.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
47. I'm with you. We are the majority - they keep stealing it and no one
is stopping them! THAT is what we need to concentrate on!
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
13. Yeah thanks there Debbie Downer!
:rant:

Aside from your pessimistic POV, I wonder what * thinks is a "comprehensive" strategy to "win the war on terror?" Waterboarding?
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True Blue Believer Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 03:04 AM
Response to Original message
17. Dems Lose? Isn't That What Newt Said In 98?

Democrats will lose? Sound's familiar.
Oh yeah, I remember now, 1998 mid-terms. Newt Gingrich, strutting and crowing about how the Monica-Gate scandal would so dishearten Democrats that we wouldn't bother showing up at the polls. At the same time, the righteously infuriated GOPers would stampede the polls and the GOP would control both houses of Congress. Anyone else remember that, and what it led to for Newtie?
Well, they had to have someone to blame. I mean, geez!

Seriously, I'm worried about the GOP cheating, or trying to, again this time as well. I don't think there is anything these people wont do to hang on to power. Admittedly, they seem to be able to come up with endless ways to "tinker" with our votes. And to manipulate their media lap dogs.
But,let's keep in mind that this time, non-Repubs will be all over them like hair on, uh, a chimp?

If you're like me, your kids taught you about computers. The polls now show that Bush's approval rating is around 20% among those under 25. If they try to flip the vote, I figure that some bright kid will, or has, come up with some way of detecting it. We also need to keep control of any electronic voting machines and any software used in them. I prefer paper ballots myself, counted by hand. As for their other gimmicks, we've seen them before. We'll be watching very closely. The Democrats and other non-Republicans plan to be at every polling place to avoid any "problems" immediately.
Then there are Kerry's recent remarks . . .

. . .I dont care what the dominant, conventional wisdom is today; it will not be the dominant, conventional wisdom in a year."

Hmmm, could it be that he has some inside info in the Repubs? Imagine how sweet it would be if we gave them just enough rope to hang themselves, then sprang the trap and caught them . . .
. . . "Red-State Handed?"

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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
79. Remember how quick Kerry coceded two years ago?
"The Democrats and other non-Republicans plan to be at every polling place to avoid any "problems" immediately."

Remember all of those thousands of lawyers he said he had on call
to jump in and save the day for us?
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
19. election integrity is an issue that the Democrats SHOULD have . . .
been screaming about since 2000 -- and daily . . . if they lose again because BushCo controls everything -- including counting the votes -- they have no one to blame but themselves . . .
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
74. !
:thumbsup:
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 03:31 AM
Response to Original message
20. You all forget that there is one very effective solution
if the liars and cheats rig the election again. We take to the streets and stay there until the recounts begin.
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
50. That will start to happen in 2008. n/t
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GreenTea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 03:49 AM
Response to Original message
22. Just like Bush predicted giddily on election night 2000 "We have Florida"
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 03:54 AM by GreenTea
(How did he know, brother Jeb?) and again in 2004 (Ohio) - Bush is confident and knows the easily hackable Diebold electronic voting machines will easily steal to keep the republican majority.

I see it in his face and actions...they believe they have it made and the machines will do as programed, where needed.

It should scare the shit out of all of us.

Sick, sick, but so true.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. I felt as though I was impaled when I watched them after the fix
was in. I know the very second it happened. Their act of theft is not what scares me. What scares me is as sure as I sit here, people will just carry on and do nothing about it. Nothing.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. how many Democrats were actually outraged in 2004?
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 07:14 AM by leftchick
Barbara Boxer and the Black Caucus. That was it! The rest of the Dems did not back them up. Kerry in particular 'didn't want to look bad'. I have had it with that shit! I am so outraged!

I worked with verified voting in my state for two years and it is like pulling teeth to get my Democratic representatives to even look at the issue let alone acknowledge Election Fraud is THE issue! So I quit about six months ago. :mad:

So, I agree with mike. It will be stolen again with a complicit media and useless democrats acknowledging yet again "the Dems ran a bad campaign" or some other bullshit.

I am actively trying to relocate out of this dictatorship. Before they will no longer let me.

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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
67. I'm waiting until after November to see what happens.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:57 AM
Response to Original message
23. I agree with you mike
and I know that to many this is a depressing topic because it makes them feel like they are powerless to stop it.
But the first step in changing something that is wrong is to recognize just what the problem is, and if we fail to do that we risk failing.
I suggest to all that want to feel positive about things that you continue to do so. There is no problem with a positive attitude but be forewarned that they will do whatever is necessary for them to keep power and to get involved in your local elections as much as you can.
And if it is stolen and you know it it may be time to take it to the streets. And that will be much harder to do than becoming involved in your local election.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Why would that be much harder?
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. You would risk arrest, getting your head bashed in
Or even being shot. Or even worse being sent to a re-education camp to learn to accept Big Brother.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
46. a little dramatic, aren't you?
Give me a fucking break!! :silly:
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #46
99. Well it is not like it hasn't happened before n/t
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:40 AM
Response to Original message
24. Before I read all the comments on this thread, someone get me
a fucking shovel so I can just beat my fucking brains out!:grr: :nuke: :argh: :hurts: :banghead: :dilemma:
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
25. Sadly, you might be right. It's got nothing to do with agreeing with
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 06:47 AM by Vinca
Dear Leader and everything to do with Diebold. They've got the machines, they've got the code, they've got the laws that allow votes to be stolen. The Republicans care about one thing and one thing only: power. And they'll do anything to keep it. I honestly don't know what we're going to do about it. Our elected officials (Dems.) are barely allowed to speak on the floors of the House and Senate and MSM has been bought and paid for.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Mexico has begun to create a separate government.
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suziedemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. I know - I'll be SHOCKED if Dems win control of EITHER house. n/t
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
29. republicans are playing to the subliminal vote, months before bush...
was installed into office, his handlers had him running round from event to event in a jacket emblazoned with an emblem that to the eye, and from a distance, looked every bit as proper as the presidential emblem...and that's an all-too-real part of how they do it...subliminally =

"boogety-boogety, i don't think they're going to win" :scared: cause too many people simply drift to where they think ('think', ha!) the winner is going to be; work the rest down by way of chide & bluster to a 50.5/49.5% split, steal the difference, or have a crony install your ass if you have to and voila! congratulations!

now even you are bought & paid for :rofl:
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
32. And so it begins in Ohio already..
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 07:31 AM by mtnester
From the Ohio forum:

Polling places closed in this area, is this a statewide
issue. I live in Belmont County and just received a card changing my voting location. I live in a rural area were we had 3 voting locations and we are going to 1, some people have to drive 6 miles to vote. Our biggest city Martins Ferry (population around 6000) had 7 locations and they are going to just 1. This is a heavily Democratic area, for example we had a special Republican primary to replace Bob Ney and there were only about 350 votes cast in a county of about 70000 people. I wonder if this is a statewide thing to suppress Democratic vote in the general election?


This is how the mess in Franklin County Ohio started on 2004 (HIGH Dem area) Combining polling places, line confusion, table sign in confusion, polling location confusion, busy signals at local BOE's because people had no idea their polling places had been relocated or combined.

We recently received our voter registrations cards. Now, we have been voting in the same place for YEARS, and thought nothing of receiving a card...it did not look different, it did not have a red alert on it, nothing to indicate it was any different than the one we always get. SURPRISE...our poll location changed. The card did not SAY it had changed, it simply listed the location on the bottom of the card, and it was different than where we have been voting for decades.

I did find out that our location has not been removed completely, people from other precincts are still voting there. It is about 4 blocks from our house. Our new location? About a mile away.

The same thing happened at the poll location I watched in Franklin County in 2004. A very small building had another LARGE precinct added to it. Additionally, machines were "reallocated" by that idiot Repub Matt Damschroeder, and this now LARGE voting mass in a building you could not swing a cat in LOST machines overall compared to the amount of machines they had when they were each located in their original polling places.

As far as staying in the streets until all the votes are recounted...recounted by what? Verified against WHAT? Diebold has no verified voting machines (you know, the kind where you get a little ATM type paper printout you put in a box to match the machine count to if there IS a recount). Diebold machines counting Diebold tallies doing recounts of said tallies on said machines = NOTHING. The machine recounts will always match...ALWAYS.

Diebold might not be able to mess with huge spreads (like Ohio's governor's race) BUT, you can bet your ass they will make damn sure that the repubs hold BOTH the senate and the house.

As long as these machines are used without verified voting (a paper receipt of your vote that is placed in a separate, secure box like your paper ballots used to be) as an alternative backup to match the machine tallies to....we will lose in the federal races...that includes 2008.

Am I a doomsayer? No...I am simply a person who watched it happen, have seen ZERO done to address it, and can say with confidence it WILL happen again. Ohio is again the playground of the Repubs, and I am sure it will happen in MORE places than simply the known ones (Ohio, Florida).

Get ready for your vote to NOT count AGAIN...will the third time be the charm? Nope.

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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Blackwell's down some 20 to 25 points but you watch...
He'll be Gov. come next year and no one will understand why...
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
48. Interesting post. It should be worth noting to see in Ohio the
voters selection a Democrat for Gov. and then vote for Repub. House and Senate candidate. That happened in Fla. and should raise red flags in those areas. No Dem. candidate should walk softly away from any election they lose. They should demand an investigation of polling places, where the machines had been prior to the election, etc.
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Singular73 Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
35. LOL yeah, thats why they are running around calling everyone Nazi's
and Appeasers.

Last arrow in their quill, so to speak.

They are going down, and they know it.

And I will be very, very drunk that night.
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GreenTea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #35
53. All they need to do is stay close...And the republicans will steal the
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 02:23 PM by GreenTea
majority again...It's very easy and simple to do--They had six years to work on it, and each election since 2000 it goes a little smoother and they make it a little less detectable...Why do you think they are so fucking arrogant and pass unpopular fascist legislation benefiting only corporations, every month, every week, every day? Because they KNOW they can steal any election, anytime anywhere where ever their republican owned Diebold machines are used...And they have been stealing elections and seats very effectively!

That's why they are pulling every trick in the book out of the hat...Pushing fear and terrorism over & over...not just to get votes, but to use as an excuse...why the held the majority when all polls said otherwise...Exactly like in 2004 where they stole seats all around the country...they said it was because people were against gay marriage, that's why the polls were wrong and Bush won...Bullshit! States all across the country are still screaming voter fraud, but no one is listening...Certainly NOT the democrats...they believe they have it made this election.

"One person in one minute can completely fuck up an election: Bruce Schneier notes the bad news outta Princeton:
http://www.2020hindsight.org/2006/09/14/diebold-machines-are-virus-prone/

When the republicans can change the very easily hackable Diebold machine count in seconds....They have and can insert a virus, in the software that can change the vote from whom you voted for, give you a screen read out that says the Diebold machine tabulated the vote for whomever you voted, even offering you a printout saying it...BUT, the vote on the machines memory card is counted for the person to whom the machine (virus) is programed for (a republican). AND the virus is self-deleting and covers its tracks...

Over 80% of the country will be voting on some kind of electronic voting machine...republican own companies like Diebold completely control and program these machines...One machine, hacked in two minutes can change the votes of all the machines connected in that string or series of machines. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marty-kaplan/how-to-hack-a-diebold-vot_b_26301.html

The republicans have done it before, in many states, that's FACT...nothing ever happens to them when they steal votes, the media sure as hell never reports it and the republicans will again use certain precinct to help the hold their majority...It's a piece of cake...they are in control of the machines, there's NO way they can win without the easily hackable machines...

You better get drunk, because in the morning the harsh reality will be announced on ALL the republican owned five networks that the American people decided to trust Bush & the republicans with "the war on terror and our safety, the talking heads will tell us (directly from the Rove/White House spin)...The talking heads will distort, convince & discuss how the polls could be so wrong again,(every election from 2000 on the polls have been "wrong" why do you thing that is)....But not a word about all the voting fraud in chosen areas around the country...We won't hear that from the mainstream for month's after it's far too late!!!
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #53
89. they miscalculated in FL2000 --- it was too close
so it was really examined----and with all the questions, they just walked away with the election-----and 9-11 happened 1-2 days before newspaper consortium was to publish its analysis of the FL vote (despite the headlines and the media spin, the result of the study showed Gore won----the election was stolen)

they got better in 2002 and were on a roll in 2004---they made sure W 'won' the popular vote and that OH and FL had a large enuff W lead so that everything 'looked okay'---W won by exactly the % Cheney predicted (Cheney was repeatedly quoted on Laura Ingraham the days before and the day of the election to reassure nervous republicans)
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
36. Anyone hear Cheney on MTP last week?
He said, with that fucking smirk on his face, that Nancy Pelosi would NOT be the next Speaker of the House. Just like Bush* said he would not lose the election in 2004. The dice are loaded with Diebold.
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Singular73 Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. He said that to get his "Nancy Pelosi as Speaker" talking point out.
What do you expect them to say? We will lose?

Come on.

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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. I expect the truth from elected leaders. Period. Come on.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #40
88. THESE elected leaders?
Come ON. The truth would be a first for any of them. Cheney also thinks the war in Iraq is going swimmingly, that those of us who disagree with him are aiding the terrorists, and you want the TRUTH from him?????????????????????????????????
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
42. Don't matter whatcha THINK: only matter's whatcha DO. And if ...
... ya wanna ride the train, ya gotta getcher ticket punched: hopeless or not, gotta go to work for D-day in November.

Make any further plans accordin to yer analysis: gotta ask yerself how many elections yer gonna let em steal and whatcher gonna do about it.

Jest don't sit around moanin ...

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blue cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
45. Call me a downer
but I agree. I've always said that it will take to about 2010 or 2012 before enough Americans realize what is going on. I've tried to tell my republican family and friends about Diebold, but they just say stuff like - so what, Landslide LBJ stole the election and both sides do it. They don't care as long as they are winning. Sad but true. We should still get out the vote and record/photograph stuff that goes on at the polls. This will be a very long fight. We need to realize how much control they have over the media. Another example of control is that the oil companies who donate ~81% to republicans will cover repub backs, and now are lowering their prices. We are the underdogs, but we cannot ever stop trying.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
49. It could very easily..
... go just as you say. The Dems keep sitting on their hands when they should be shouting from the rooftops - Bush has handed them issue after issue on a silver platter but only a handful are willing to run with it. I think our incumbent Congress-critters are just entirely too risk averse.

Nothing really has been done about either voting machine rigging or procedural voter-suppression. Bottom line, I'm not sure they can risk stealing 20 elections, but they can and will risk stealing some.

We have to win by a large margin to actually come out the winner. And I'm not sure that will happen. They no doubt have a few more dirty tricks up their sleeves and they are pretty good at leading gullible Americans around by the nose.

On the bright side - the longer there is an all-Republican-all-the-time government, the harder it will be for them to escape responsibility for what they have done. Give them 6 more years, and once they lose power (I know, some of you think they never will - but the problem with criminal activity is that criminals always eventually slip up and these folks are no different) and Americans will not be able to escape the knowledge that it was Republican policies and Republican policies only that led us to continual war, more terror and a second Great Depression.
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #49
61. They don't care about the margin. n/t
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
51. You don't vote for Dems do you?
eom
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
52. Thanks for calling it mikelewis. There's nothing
we can do if we don't wake up and see the reality of the situation.


I think this is exactly what is going down. Nothing will stop it until there is massive public outrage, probably after the presidential election in 2008 is stolen for the third time.

I think people will start to catch on what we are up against. Why do you think they are preparing these safeguards against any challenges to their power?
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QuestionAll... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
54. you're right, mike.
some people here are setting themselves up for another big crash let down. It's so sad.

There is no fairness, there is no democracy, your vote counts for nothing.

There is the Bush evil, there is Diebold, there is a population as dumb as a suitcase of rocks.

sorry to be such a 'downer', but come on...

they CHEAT, they LIE, they MURDER, they TORTURE.

what to do?
look south to Mexico, they're doing something.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. i agree, let's just stay home & not even vote...
:sarcasm:
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QuestionAll... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. this is how you vote...
with your body and soul hitting the streets in large screaming mad numbers. Not violent, but loud as fucking hell.

I suppose you think elections are run fairly, that's your right and opinion.
I happen to think it's all a big stinking sham and would not insult myself to even bother playing the game.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. "that's your right and opinion"
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QuestionAll... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. see, this is something I don't understand here...
I'm not personally attacking you (and if there was any such flavor to my posts I apologize because there was no intention) - I have a much different opinion than yours and you sound like you're pissed at me?

why ?
get the fuck mad at who deserves it, not ME.

maybe that's what this is partly about - misdirected anger.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. counseling apathetic myopia will accomplish less than you may...
otherwise think it so imo; while having your own words handed back to you within quotation marks & without further comment pisses you off = whatever
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GreenTea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
56. "One person in one minute can completely fuck up an election:"
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 02:09 PM by GreenTea
Bruce Schneier notes the bad news outta Princeton:

(See post # 53 above for a lot more info).


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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
59. approvals in the mid 40's? only one that high is Rasmussen
others are 38-42 percent.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
60. few "anomalies" but not enough to affect the outcome of the elections."
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RangerSmith Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
64. Ya know...
When you take this position, IMHO what you are essentially saying is if Democrats win there never was vote stealing.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
65. Yes, they have stolen the other elections, why not this one as well? nt
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
66. That is EXACTLY
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 03:02 PM by WilliamPitt
how each and every one of us should be thinking about this.

Read:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/090606A.shtml

...and then get to work.
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. Just a thought...
I was thinking... we need a rather spectacular plan for the 8th, something that really grabs people's attention. My guess is, this election is going to be an enormous clusterfuck. If the problems we had in the primaries are any indication, there's is going to be a lot of very pissed off people come the 8th.

Wouldn't it be nice to see a full page ad in several major newspapers discussing the security vulnerabilities of the Diebold voting machines and leading people to sites dedicated to fair and free elections? We don't even need to say they stole it... we won't have to; for anyone not completely comatose, they'll get the message. Also, design and content could be submitted and voted on through an open internet forum. Involving the activists early will really help drive our message through. I'm sure there's more than enough money floating out in the "election aware" community to get this done.

It's best to strike when the iron is hot and on the 8th, it's going to be glowing red; it's an opportunity that shouldn't be squandered. On November 5th, 2004 I had no idea the election was stolen but at that time I was more than willing to listen. Chance led me to the truth and we have an obligation to lead others there as well. I can think of no better time to evangelize this message then when people are suddenly confronted by a harsh reality. If the message is clear and if the call to action is merely to get people started down the path of learning the truth, I think this could do quite a bit of good. Anyway, it's just a thought.
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
68. Yeah...let's just pack it up! The election's over! Bush says so.
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 04:21 PM by terrya
This is one of the saddest, most depressing posts I've ever seen here at Democratic Underground. You're quoting a man who's universally hated here...and you're AGREEING with him?

Jesus Christ. Unfuckingbelivable.
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. No one is saying that shit-But if you prefer to keep your head in the sand
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 04:50 PM by LaPera
Republicans have been stealing elections...do you just want to ignore it and merrily believe the Dem's are just going to win somehow...It doesn't work that way, this is the real world...it's tough ugly and people cheat, distort, smear & lie whatever it takes to steal an election & steal a seat!

That's exactly what the republicans love...Dem's who prefer ignorance, Dem's who are over confident, Dem's who believe everyone plays fair and Dem's who believe the polls.

There are a lot of very valid reasons on this thread...why don't you read some of them...People NOT hiding their head in the sand....

Everyone who writes the truth here is still going to vote...who will it discourage? ONLY wimpy-assed Dem's and moderates with their heads up their ass or in the sand anyway!

I will still vote even if I knew I was the only Democrat in the whole country voting...I always vote...even when I know the obvious, the lying and stealing...I vote. And so do most others here...Even if someone is laying out facts and opinions that one doesn't want or like to hear.
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #68
75. "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Perizin"
As long as anger over this...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=106x28953

can be wiped out by deceptions like this...
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/mikelewis/51

I will continue to read the writing on the wall as I see it. The truth is we're fucked until everyone knows we're fucked and then, we have a chance of not being fucked any more. The GOP has motive, opportunity and a history that cannot be denied; what makes you think they're not going to steal it "this time"? What makes you so sure that the known security risks in the machines won't be exploited by the Republicans? What makes you so sure the new Identification laws won't keep people from the polls? What makes you so sure all of this hysteria about the screwed up election day procedures that conjure images of long lines won't discourage participation? What makes you so sure absentee ballots won't be tampered with and lost, ruled invalid or illegally padded? Where are you getting this faith? I don't know about you but when I hear George Bush say he's going to win an election, I tend to believe him because I know how he's going to do it. If you don't believe it now... just wait. I'll show it to you on the 8th.
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CarlVK Donating Member (632 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
69. Der Chimpenfuhrer is increasingly delusional
so forgive me if I don't put much stock in his predictions.
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Did you see the chimp on election night 2000 in the hotel room with
pappy?
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CarlVK Donating Member (632 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. mmm, no I missed that moment....
Can you give me the skinny?
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #73
78. Florida was really in question at this point--ALL exit polls had Gore
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 06:07 PM by LaPera
winning Florida and Gore was leading in Florida at that point...

When the camera's were turned on in the Bush's hotel suite and Jr was sitting in a chair and could hardly stay seated, squirming around laughing and smiling, almost like the chimp had a few drinks and couldn't compose himself he was so excited...A reporter saying well it doesn't look good for you in Florida...and the chimp obviously not able to control his enthusiasm, says loudly to the reporter, looking in the camera..."I don't know what your talking about, we've got Florida, were going to win Florida!"

It was a shocking moment when I saw that...especially when the camera was at a wide angle and while Jr. went on blathering and smiling so happily giggling... in another chair Pappy Bush had a look on his face that could kill, he was actually slumping slowly down in his chair as if to say SHUT THE FUCK UP TO THE CHIMP (were stealing this thing and your shooting your mouth off) and Pappy gave a look like, don't you dare ask me a fucking question.(they didn't and the camera was turned off, and back to the studio for more returns).

At that moment I knew they stole it...I didn't know how, until days later...but I knew...They have never shown that scene again and I can't tell you what network I was watching...but I was with a group of friends and we all saw it, and we were just stunned, and looked at each other...saying, "did you just fucking see that?"

Bush now has that same sort of confidence...he knows Rove and the machines are going to steal a few races, however many it takes, to hold the republican majority in November...Then watch out Social Security, Iran, our civil liberties and devastating economic hardships for workers. Keeping the corporate fascist ball rolling and smashing everything.
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. He did the same thing in 2004, right before the results flipped...
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. that's not the half of it, two things come to mind: 1, Jeb was in that...
room as well tippy tapping away frantically on a PC...to where? florida? checking on what? results? where the votes needed to be shaved/stolen? further disenfranchised? progress on the theft itself? where's katherine?

and: 2, the look on poppy's face when they declared Gore the winner was truly as though shock had entered the room, the equation, "What!?! That is not supposed to be the result!!!" i encourage anyone to pull up the tape & check it out, it is all right there

:tinfoilhat: time? not necessarily. these republican pricks do not show up to merely play...they show up toWIN! at any & all cost make no mistake about it
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
80. Careful now! The middle of the road DUers will say you're
wearing your tin foil hat when talking about the GOP stealing elections.
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
81. DId you ever think that Democrat's DON'T want to win?
All right, what principles are driving the Democratic Congressional and Senatorial races? Anybody? Anybody at all?

And please don't give me the five talking points that Dean keeps repeating. They're vague enough that they could apply to anything.

I could see an end to this hemlock nightmare if anyone running for Congress would pledge to some principles in public statements. Things like...

"I will push for a genuine attempt to bring bin Laden and the terrorists to justice."
"I will join my fellow Democrats to bring a just end to this war within three years."
"I will make sure my election, and all future elections, do not defraud or disenfranchise voters."
"I will investigate fraud in military contracts, and if sufficient fraud is found, I will help bring the guilty parties to justice - even if they occupy public office, in wartime such fraud qualifies as treason."

Do you see any Congress-creatures making such statements? I don't. Do you see them show any passion? Uh-uh. Have they ever really confronted Republicans? They're afraid of swiftboat attacks.

Even with the President and the Republicans looking so bad, voters will only want a better choice. And the Democrats are too timit to provide that choice.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
82. A Nightmare scenario..
The Dems come out on top. They've won a majority in both the House and Senate.
The Repugs start screaming the Dems Stole the Election..and want a recount.

The actual theft (by Repugs) happens during the recount, not in any specific state,
as has been the case in the past, but the numbers change dramatically in their favor
during the recount..(which could taker weeks even a month or more)!

My question is: Are the Dems prepared to deal with a sidewinder theft?
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
83. Besides corrupt repub tactics,
the Dems nationally and in too many states are still too disorganized and lack a coherent alternative message other than "vote for us, we're not Bush!" We've got to put forth much more than that, our own coherent, clear message and alternative proposals, for one. Considering the much-weakened position of the pubs, that is damn near inexcusable.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
84. Rigging an election in the US is more complicated
Rigging an election in the US is more complicated than rigging one in a more ordinary banana republic.

Bush or his aides were able to commit election fraud because the election was to going to be close. If every poll in the country showed Kerry headed to an easy win, there would have been no point in attempting to steal the election. What were they going to do? Steal it and ask if any one remembers Truman and Dewey? They might have tried that (it would be beyond them), but most people know that the science of sampling public opinion has come a long ways since 1948. Such errors are now (pardon me) statistically improbable. They might also toss in a couple of red herrings ("Democrats stole elections; remember how Mayor Daley got people to rise from the graveyards to vote his way? And how about Boss Tweed? He was a Democrat, you know. Who are they to complain?") If it's bad enough, it won't fly.

I don't think even the most feckless Congressional Democrat is going to roll over for this one. And neither should we.



Liberty Leading the People (1830) by Eugne Delacroix
From the website of the University of Southern California
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Watch this video and then tell me what you think....
Edited on Sun Sep-17-06 07:02 PM by mikelewis
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=106x28953


It's not the disenfranchisement and suppression that will steal this election, it's the machines. The disenfranchisement and suppression "won't be enough to affect the outcome of the elections" but changing the count will. In a few weeks, this will be academic, you will see with your own eyes the truth of what is going on... the intent of this post is simply to prepare you for that day. Watch and learn... another election is going to be stolen right before your eyes... study it and evangelize the truth.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. We are not afraid of 'the machines' - Calif official seeks criminal...
...probe of e-voting Machines banned in four counties; 10 more counties must meet conditions

'SACRAMENTO, Calif. - The states top election official called for a criminal investigation of Diebold Election Systems Inc. as he banned use of the companys newest model touchscreen voting machine, citing concerns about its security and reliability.

Fridays ban will force up to 2 million voters in four counties, including San Diego, to use paper ballots in November, marking their choices in ovals read by optical scanners.'


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4874190

we are only concerned the rest of the nation will not do their part to expose the systemic flaws within them & hold Diebold accountable for providing a machine that will & can be independently bench-test-certified. that part is vital. if it's good enough for ATM's & slot machines, voting machines are as well to be considered imo

Diebold's duplicity is well known, and pressure must be continued to be applied upon them for accountability and i do not care who they know, or donate to in congress, or elsewhere

:patriot:
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. Major Problems At Polls Feared
Major Problems At Polls Feared
Some Officials Say Voting Law Changes And New Technology Will Cause Trouble

By Dan Balz and Zachary A. Goldfarb
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, September 17, 2006; A01

An overhaul in how states and localities record votes and administer elections since the Florida recount battle six years ago has created conditions that could trigger a repeat -- this time on a national scale -- of last week's Election Day debacle in the Maryland suburbs, election experts said.

In the Nov. 7 election, more than 80 percent of voters will use electronic voting machines, and a third of all precincts this year are using the technology for the first time. The changes are part of a national wave, prompted by the federal Help America Vote Act of 2002 and numerous revisions of state laws, that led to the replacement of outdated voting machines with computer-based electronic machines, along with centralized databases of registered voters and other steps to refine the administration of elections.

But in Maryland last Tuesday, a combination of human blunders and technological glitches caused long lines and delays in vote-counting. The problems, which followed ones earlier this year in Ohio, Illinois and several other states, have contributed to doubts among some experts about whether the new systems are reliable and whether election officials are adequately prepared to use them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/16/AR2006091600885_pf.html
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #86
94. I was a computer programmer for over 25 years
And I have repeatedly posted my own ideas on these forums, including a pseudocode design for such a program, as to how easy it would be to rig an election with these machines. I have stated many times here that in an environment where the voting software is regarded as the private property of the manufacturer and beyond public inspection and where machines with no ballot-level paper trail are used, I would expect that anybody who has ever received a passing grade in a programming course would have the necessary skills to rig an election. I believe another video you might dig up shows Clint Curtis, also a computer programmer, making a similar statement under oath.

Watching the video (which contained little that was new for me) does not alter my hypothesis.

I'll leave out simple security measures like check the serial number on the memory card, padlock the machine with a combination lock and don't allow any one to take headphones into the voting both (better yet, don't manufacture these machines with headphones). Let's assume something like the election rigging software is installed by the manufacturer.

Mr. O'Dell may not have meant anything more by his infamous remarks about delivering Ohio to Bush than that he was going to contribute a huge sum of money to the Bush-Cheney "re-"election campaign, but he should have been more sensitive to what it sounded like for a manufacturer of voting machines to say that after the steer manure Jeb and Cruella pulled off in Florida in 2000. His remark wouldn't have put him under suspicion of wrongdoing by itself, but he has resisted all attempts to scrutinize his machines. That makes me suspicious.

If instead of 5 votes being counted, there are 500 or 5000 or 500,000 votes being counted, it would make a difference, especially if a virus plays into the picture. I live in California and we cast millions of votes in an election. Five votes here or there aren't going to make much of a difference.

Let's go back to the video's example. Suppose that polls before the election show that approximately 4 out of 5 voters plan to vote for George Washington over Benedict Arnold; then the results show that 3 out of 5 cast their vote for Arnold. If we are talking about a statistically significant number of votes, rather than less that half a dozen, few people are going to believe that. Even people who voted for Arnold would be scratching their heads. This is to say nothing of exit polling that will be wildly at variance with the official result.

This kind of election rigging will only work if the vote is expected to be close enough that most polls show the lead by one candidate over another to be within the margin of error. That would make any result (as long as it's close) credible.

I risk being flamed, but I really don't know that Bush stole the election in 2004, in the sense that more people actually voted for Kerry than Bush but the result showed otherwise. The Bushies relied on many vote rigging techniques, and I don't even know if vote rigging software in the machines was one of them (although I suspect it was). Prospective voters in predominately Democratic precincts in Ohio who gave up after standing hours in the rain was one of the more obvious methods. How many were there? I don't know; do you? There's no paper trail left behind if somebody didn't vote because his polling place was undersupplied. There is evidence of outright intimidation in both Florida and Ohio. How many people didn't go to the polls because they were afraid of being charged with a felony if they did. There is certainly no paper trail left behind if somebody didn't go to the polls.

Having said that I am uncertain that Bush actually stole the election in 2004, I don't think there is any doubt that there was a systematic voter suppression effort aimed at people more likely to vote for Kerry. Bush might have won a free and fair election in 2004, but not by 4 million votes. Of course, that raises the possibility that he would not have won it at all.

We need to be vigilant of not just e-voting, but all forms of election rigging and voter suppression.

Meanwhile, I will say for my part that as long as most polls show that Democrats hold a significant lead and that so many normally Republican districts are competitive, then I will not accept as genuine any election-day result to the contrary.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. Agreed
There are two ideas in play here, the first is are the machines so porous in their security model that anyone can effectively rig an election? The second of course is the notion that backdoors or special processes are in play which Diebold purposefully put in place to allow "friends and family" easier access.

The first is a given. Consider:

- Physical access to the box is the hardest scenario to defend against from a security standpoint yet Diebold makes no major precautions to such access and in fact seems dependent on open access to the network (see below).
- The fact that Diebold has deliberately chosen a closed programming model which has been shown time and time again to be the weakest in security defense issues. Even Microsoft with their vast resources cannot keep either their O/S or their browser secure for more than a few days - Diebold lacks such resources and the stakes are much higher.
- Diebold's deliberate failure to implement a proper transactive/audit/journaling systems where they use WORM media to record audits on the electronic devices and the lack of paper or physical media as backup.
- Lack of FIPS certification. Diebold knows what it is, they brag of it in their other products, yet curiously it is missing here. FIPS is the basic security standards the government gives for their own sensitive systems. Rather, Diebold seems to run a fairly open MS Windows CE system which of course given MS's well known security lapses is a poor engineering decision.

The second part is of course a matter of speculation. But there were reports they were updating the code on machines on Election day in 2002 and 2004 over the Internet. Not sure why the machines were allowed to be "online" which is a basic security no-no, but the fact that they were and that Diebold was active is highly suspicious and should have caused a major Congressional investigation.

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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #94
97. Then maybe you'll connect more with this article...
The myth of fair elections in America


The debacle surrounding the Republican victory in 2000 demonstrated to the world that America's electoral process is wide open to abuse. But as Paul Harris discovers, the system has actually worsened since then

One person, one vote. Count the totals. The one with the most wins. The beauty of democracy is its simplicity and its inherent fairness. It equalises everyone, even as it empowers everyone. What could go wrong? In America, it turns out, quite a lot.

Everyone remembers the debacle in Florida, 2000. The recounts, the law suits and the eventual deciding of a presidential election - not by the voters - but by the Supreme Court. The memory still causes a collective shudder to America's body politic.

....


Now I am not a conspiracy theorist. I don't believe that there is a cunning secret plan, set out in detail beforehand and then masterfully carried out to deliberately steal presidential elections. In fact, you don't actually need a shadowy plot to get much the same effect.

....

You don't need to be a conspiracy theorist to be seriously worried about this state of affairs. In many ways, it is more worrying that the system is not being deliberately stolen from on high. It is actually broken from the ground up.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/columnists/story/0,,1866780,00.html


I'm not trying to force you to believe my theories so I wouldn't flame you for yours... I'm simply asking you to take a hard look at our election process and become aware of the catastrophe we're about to walk into. Whether or not this is a diabolical plan from up high or just plain old fashioned "incompetence feeding opportunity" is irrelevant. The result will be the same. On election day, we will see a Katrina level clusterfuck and on Nov. 8th, the GOP will most likely retain control of both Houses. This isn't a definite but given the history, I'd place a wager.

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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
87. Babs isn't going to allow ya'll to make jr. into a lame ducky-poo...
at least she'll try her damdest to get Diebold to spark up it's machines again!
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
92. All You Need to Know about Election 2006
All You Need to Know about Election 2006

1. 80% of all votes will be tabulated by electronic voting machines

2. Diebold machines shown by Princeton profs to be easily "hacked"

All other discussion is a complete waste of time.

Princeton report slams Diebold touch-screen systems
Researchers created vote-stealing code; Diebold disputes claim
Marc Songini Todays Top Stories or Other IT in Government Stories

September 14, 2006 (Computerworld) -- A recently released report by researchers at Princeton University alleges more security flaws in Diebold Election Systems Inc.'s touch-screen voting systems.

The school's Center for Information Technology Policy, which studies computer technology's effect on society, posted the report online yesterday. Computer science researchers at the university said they were able to create vote-stealing code that can be installed in a minute on Diebold hardware and change vote counts undetected, according to a statement from Princeton.

"We have created and analyzed the code in the spirit of helping to guide public officials so that they can make wise decisions about how to secure elections," Edward Felton, the director of the Center for Information Technology Policy, said in the statement. "We found that the machine is vulnerable to a number of extremely serious attacks that undermine the accuracy and credibility of the vote counts it produces."

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9003310&intsrc=cust_topread
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
93. Which elections are they going to steal?
There are 60-70 Congressional seats in play. There's many of us here who would like to help by being a poll watcher. Which of the in-play seats are they most likely to steal? Which of them are they less likely to be able to steal? Knowing this now will help us focus our efforts where there's the greatest danger.
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farmboxer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
96. Republican Voting Machines Worry Me
it's not the voters. Republicans seem to be counting on the voting machines like they have since 2000.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
98. Ignore everything Bush would say to make himself or his party look good.nt
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