What is left anti-semitism?

[k_jerome]

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/5041

snip

There are three difficulties, three confusions and obfuscations, that stand in the way of rational discussion of what we mean by “left-wing anti-semitism”.

The first is that left-wing anti-semitism knows itself by another and more self-righteous name, “anti-Zionism”. Often, your left-wing anti-semite sincerely believes that he or she is only an anti-Zionist, only a just if severe critic of Israel.

The second is that talk of left-wing anti-semitism to a left-wing anti-semite normally evokes indignant, sincere, and just denial - of something else! “No, I'm not a racist! How dare you call me a racist?”

The third source of confusion and obfuscation is the objection: “You say I’m an anti-semite because I denounce Israel. I’m not anti-Jewish when I denounce Israel, but anti-Zionist”. And sometimes, at this point, you get the addition: “By the way, I am myself Jewish”.

snip

The anti-semitic left today, which depicts Israel as the hyper-imperialist power — either controlling US policy, or acting as its chief instrument, the story varies — is in the grip of an “anti-imperialism of the fools”. And that in practice leads to a comprehensive hostility to Jews not far from what Bebel called the socialism of fools.

One of the great tragedies of today is that many young people, whose initial instincts to oppose Bush and Blair in Iraq and to support the Palestinians are healthy, are being poisoned with “left-wing” anti-semitism through the “anti-war movement”.

“Left-wing anti-semitism” is, in short, a comprehensive hostility to most Jews alive, branding them as “Zionists” and seeing that description as akin to “racist" or “imperialist”. It excepts only those Jews who agree that Israel is racist imperialism in its most concentrated essence, and oppose its continued existence.

[Erika]

1. I just don't like my tax $ spent on warring others

I don't care about their religion or national origin.

Just knock off the hostilities and work for peace. It's really not that difficult.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

73. we should all fight for that of course

but I think the reality is that if Isreal never existed ALL of their US foreign policy aid money would have gone to whatever secular, democratic, "Westernized" country was next in line, probably Turkey or even (ironically) Lebannon.

The US has been desperate for a foothold in the Middle East for the past 50 years. Believe me, if it wasn't Israel it'd be somebody else. The military machine would demand it.

[blonndee]

2. According to SOME (*ahem*), any thing that criticizes Israel.

Is that the answer you were looking for?

[ugarte]

3. From the same article

No, by “left-wing anti-semitism” we emphatically do not mean political, military, or social criticism of Israel and of the policy of Israeli governments. Certainly, not all left-wing critics of Israel or Zionism are anti-semites, even though these days all anti-semites, including the right-wing, old-fashioned, and racist anti-semites, are paid-up “anti-Zionists”.

Israel frequently deserves criticism. Israel’s policy in the Occupied Territories and its general treatment of the Palestinians deserve outright condemnation. The oppressed Palestinians need to be politically defended against Israeli governments and the Israeli military. The only halfway equitable solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict, a viable, independent Palestinian state in contiguous territory, side by side with Israel, needs to be argued for and upheld against Israeli power.
--------------------------------

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[salvorhardin]

6. That's a really solid article

Here's the one I've been posting around for the past few months by Esther Kaplan...

Anti-Semitism After 9-11
...

A second challenge is to constantly test the lens through which Jewish victimization is being seen. “Any effective framework,” says Kaye/Kantrowitz, “must allow us to really see what’s happening to people, and who is really at risk.”<74> A vision of contemporary Jewish vulnerability that does not allow us to acknowledge the daily brutality being experienced by Palestinians under occupation, or the intensity of anti-Arab and anti-Muslim violence in the United States since September 11th is simply not adequate. Nor is one that refuses to take at least some solace in the Muslim groups who marched in solidarity with Jews to protest the antisemitic attacks in France, or the quiet but persistent Jewish-Muslim interfaith work that has taken place almost monthly in New York City, ground zero, since the World Trade Center towers collapsed. Timor Yuskaev, an academic fellow at the Interfaith Center of New York, speculates that, “In the long run, this is possibly a much more lasting legacy of the attacks.”<75> Perhaps he is being too hopeful. But alarmism has its dangers as well.

Esther Kaplan is an activist, writer, and radio producer. She is cochair of Jews for Racial and Economic Justice, a New York City-based social justice organization, and the cohost of Beyond the Pale, a Jewish public affairs program on WBAI radio in New York.
http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v16n2/AntisemitismAfter.html

[The_Warmth]

7. Really?

Denouncing Isreal then linking it to 'hostility to most jews alive' is comparable to denouncing the American government and then being told you create hostility towards most Americans alive. I don't hate the place I live, just the people in charge.

[JackNewtown]

8. Equating Jews with Israel is wrong

It is wrong--the vast majority of Jews live outside of Israel--and it is rooted in the "dual loyalty" canard that all Jews are more loyal to Israel than their country. Moreover, we have seen the ugly side effects of the Israeli PR campaign to conflate all Jews with Israel. The situation for the Jewish people outside of Israel should not be sacrificed on the altar of Israeli colonialism.

[Behind the Aegis]

9. But it is done all the time...

...equating Jews with Israel. While the majority of Jews are not Israeli citizens, Israel has the largest population of Jews in the world, followed by the United States...after that, Jews are scattered all over. The situation is so very complicated that a short post is not sufficient to cover the complexity. Most Jews do have a special feeling toward Israel. That is not to say they are more loyal to Israel than their native country, but to deny that feeling is inappropriate.

The fact is we are seeing and will continue to see a rise in anti-Semitism because of the actions of Israel. In essence, we will see Jews blamed for Israel and attacked accordingly. It is already happening worldwide. So to say it is wrong to equate the two may be correct, but happens, on both sides, but more frequently on those that proclaim to only be "anti-Israeli."

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Not if you read and comprehend the article. n/t

[dipsydoodle]

12. "All of the time"

is too strong an expression and so I disagree with your statement. Branding everyone else as being the same is no more than a different form of bigotry. There may for example be material differences between here in the UK and the USA and there may also be age related issues.
I'm 62 and grew up in a predominantly Jewish area of north London - Edgware. Inevitably a high number of my friends were Jewish and there were, and remain , no issues whatsoever of bigotry. I had no cause to identify my friends with Israel and time has not changed my perception of direct association between Israel and Jewish people in general.

[rpannier]

16. Your point is well taken

I was reading the comments in an article on HuffPo and one poster put this up
"When Muslims lay down their arms there will be peace in the Middle East. When Israel lays down their arms, Israel will cease to exist."

To which someone posted, "I see nothing wrong with either of those."

There is a tremendous amount of hostility towards Israel, some of which I understand and at times I agree with. Other times it just baffles me what their point is, or how they arrived at the conclusion they did. I'm not always sure that the hostility is anti-Semitic, as Arabs are semites too. I think a lot of it stems from one of two places;

1) Israeli politicians are supposedly "buddy-buddy" with scrubbie. And scrubbie and co. are doing AIPAC's bidding;

and/or

2) Americans, especially those on the left, sympathise with the underdog. Israel has more arms, they get money and equipment from the US, etc. Arabs and Arab states are often bashed on TV, either directly or indirectly and this raises the ire of many.
on note: I am in this group.

The problem here is that Hizbollah, Hamas, etc think nothing of walking into a crowded restaurant and blowing up civilians. They fire rockets at Israeli schools, synogagues, etc, then rush into a crowded area hoping that Israel will not attack. If Israel does, Hizbollah and their apologists are immediately outraged.

On a personal note: Israel is wrong for attacking civilian areas in paces like Beirut and for bombing the Lebanese military base in the first few days of the engagement. There is no excuse for this. But, Hizbollah are hardly the victims here. Lebanese and Israeli civilians are the victims.

[Karmakaze]

18. Bull - there have been two posts

in the last day or so that specifically claim ties of all Jews to Israel - in one the poster said that Israel is their fallback position so that when their host country turns on them and starts rounding them up they will have somewhere to run, and that the poster thought this was very close to being necessary in the US!!!

Now I have not seen ONE post in all my time on DU that said that ALL Jews are responsible for what Israel does - yet here is a long term DUer basically calling America Nazi and being only a few steps away from carrying out another Holocaust!

The truth is it is Israel that wants all Jews to feel beholden to supporting Israel no matter what. But when someone points out that that is what Israel wants, they are again called anti-semitic.

[MrPrax]

90. Neither have I...

What I do see are essentially Likud supporters salting a liberal forum with hate propaganda that speaks volumes about the racist mindset of the Zionist than it does about what Likud supporters *think* is the Left, Jewish culture or anything else.

This shit is straight out of Commentary/FrontPage and the GOP/neo-con playbook -- it's just too bad so many liberals (who genuinely want to do the right thing) have bought into it the racist headset of Greater Israel to all other concerns.

These people are not interested in peace, they are interested in conquest and power. They just want to confuse the issue with irrational 'blanket' statements, guilt and an equally pernicious set of conspiracy theories deployed to enhance the imperialist aims of the US and it's proxy, Israel.

[DistressedAmerican]

23. I've never once done it.

Yet the OP of this thread has explicitly called me an anti-semite on no less than 5 separate occassions since sunday, all in violation of the board posting rules and all pulled.

The OP clearly DOES believe that there is no criticism of Isreal or Zionism that is not racist. He is dead wrong.

When someone sees me attack Jews (something I've never done), they can call me an anti-semite. When someone hears me say there is some Jewish conspirtacy to control this opr that (something I've also never done), then they can call me an anti-semite. When someone sees me equate all Jews with Isreal or suggest that Non-Israeli Jews are more loyal to Israel than their home country (never have), they can call me an anti-semite.

On the otherhand, it someone like the OP calls me a racist for ossposing this conflict, they are liars and they are dispicable.

This article is nothing more than an attemptp to excuse and justify the numerous attacks the OP has direct the way of ANYONE opposing Israel's policies. His posts have siad as much quite explicitly. It is a lie used to justify his continued hatred and smearing of the folks opposed to Israeli policies and nothing more.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. I've had the same experience n/t

[TahitiNut]

38. Yep.

When an individual steadfastly refuses to respect the use of language and alleges "codewords" and a different intention than another's words portray, that individual abandons the fundamental civility and human respect that's minimally necessary for rational discussion.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TahitiNut]

47. Well, when bombing becomes sacramental ...

... humanity rushes back to the Dark Ages. (Personally, I don't know how ANYONE, even marginally sane, could read the Old Testament and yearn for the politics of that time.)

Regarding "Neocon =Jew" ... that's now a Limbaugh line of garbage.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1807958

[Kingshakabobo]

57. This same point was made ysterday.....

..."The fact is we are seeing and will continue to see a rise in anti-Semitism because of the actions of Israel. In essence, we will see Jews blamed for Israel and attacked accordingly. It is already happening worldwide."


...and the poster was accused of saying "they deserve it."

[ComerPerro]

66. The thing that really bothers me is people who act like

the current nation of Israel is the literal "Israel" from the Bible.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. I didn't read the article

I didn't read the article but the argument that "I can't be anti-fill in the blank because my best friend, wife, etcetera, is fill in the blank is the lamest argument in the world.


When someone says their best friend, wife, etcetera is fill in the blank somebody's about to get slammed.


Same with people who preface their remarks by saying "no disrespect intended". When somebody says that somebody's about to be disrepected.

[Caretha]

14. Why is it

There are some people who seem so hasty to use the "anti-semitism" brush to paint anyone and everyone with, when Israel embarks on a particularly aggressive path that most peace loving sane people would question?

Hell!!!! When the US decided to invade Iraq to find WMD's, I was/am extremely critical of the actions of the US Government..does that make me anti-European-Caucasian-Christian/American?

Some people need to get over their cheap selves. I'm getting damn sick of it and find this argument to be quite transparent, lacking any and all real substance and used as a way to deter debate over issues that need to be evaluated and judged for their merit.

The Times July 28, 2006


Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers
From Yonit Farago in Jerusalem



WHILE Israel fights Hezbollah with tanks and aircraft, its supporters are campaigning on the internet.
Israel’s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can place supportive messages.



In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special “megaphone” software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate.

www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper

[Karmakaze]

19. Its called Hasbara and is nothing new

In fact it was at one time banned from even being mentioned on DU that Hasbara exists. I wouldnt be surprised if it still is:

"Normally, media and advocacy skills or experience are the work of diplomats and media professionals. However, since autumn 2000, the highly critical and even hostile media image of Israel purveyed in news and other feature reporting around the world has placed every Jewish community around the world, every educator, lay leader, student and Israeli abroad, before the dual challenges of getting hold of substantial resources and knowing how to use them to the best advantage."
http://jajzfaq.unitedapps.com/faqs/faqCategoryDisplay.aspx?categoryid=630&rsid=251

[jonnyblitz]

20. I have heard of Hasbara. why would we not be allowed to

talk about it?

[Karmakaze]

39. At the time...

A long time ago (in DU time) a series of documents on tactics to be used for Hasbara were exposed here on DU. Those documents came straight from official Israeli government websites or semi-official websites like the one I linked to, and discussed various tactics to be used for Hasbara (Israel Advocacy) down to talking points detailing the exact response to make to many standard claims about Israel and its actions, and tatics to divert attention from areas where Israel could legitimately (in their own eyes) be criticised to subjects more beneficial to Israel.

The problem was, once other people critical of Israel read these documents, they suddenly noticed that these talking points, almost word for word were being used, along with all the other tactics described, right here on DU. This resulted in people specualting that some posters were simply parroting the Israeli government line fed to them by such Hasbara websites.

Soon, saying someone was involved in Hasbara was as bad as saying someone was a freeper, and not long after that even mentioning the word Hasbara would get a post locked if not deleted.

[jonnyblitz]

40. There is a video making the rounds here at DU that discusses

Hasbara. If I remember correctly they came about after the other invasion of Lebanon in the 80's when Sharon slaughtered all those people and they needed a PR outfit to whitewash that event.

[oberliner]

52. when Sharon slaughtered all those people?

Bit of an unfair characterization, wouldn't you say?

[jonnyblitz]

59. oh don't even TRY ......

I am done with this conversation.

[cracksquirrel]

65. here we go!

here we go again with the "zionist cyborg bloggers" (lol) out to sew dissention in the ranks of the right-thinking people! a good way to make sure that whenever anyone disagrees with you in relation to Israel, you can always just say that they're a Zionist Cybersoldier! How convenient!

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. k_jerome, can we take it that you agree with the article?

That is, that anti-semitism on the left is characterised by a wish to get rid of the state of Israel, as opposed to condemning current Israeli policy?

That website's position on the current fighting in Lebanon is:

STOP THE SLAUGHTER! ISRAEL OUT OF LEBANON! STOP ROCKET ATTACKS ON ISRAELI CIVILIANS!

The hundreds of civilian casualties and the vast destruction of the infrastructure of Lebanon's economic and social life by the Israeli armed forces is provoking world-wide indignation and anger. And so it should!

Does Israel have a right to defend itself from those whose stated political and military objective is to wipe out the Jewish nation? Yes, it has. But, apart from any other considerations, the disparity of power as between Israel and Lebanon, and Israel and the Palestinians, is such that the reckless destruction and slaughter in Lebanon can not be justified in terms of Israel's need to defend itself.

If it is true, and it is, that there is an important difference between the deliberate targeting and slaughter of civilians and even reckless disregard for ancillary "collateral" civilian casualties in a military operation, it is also true that there is a recklessness and indifference to civilian "ancillary" casualties that is not in its effects always easy to distinguish from the deliberate slaughter by Islamic and other terrorists. Yes, Hisbullah (and Hamas) deliberately site themselves and their rocket-launching bases in the heart of civilian populations. That does not justify a power acting from a position of immense military strength in saying, "so be it, the responsibility is theirs", to the ensuing slaughter of civilians.

The international revulsion against Israel is justified.
...
http://www.workersliberty.org/node/6686

Do you agree with that?

[TahitiNut]

44. (crickets)

I just love the drive-by "drop it and run" approach to thread-creation. (Not.)

:eyes:

[Karmakaze]

17. So the article proves itself wrong...

If it is anti-semitism it is aimed at the RACE. Yet the article says that it excludes Jews that oppose Israel. Does that not then by definition mean it is anti-Israel, rather than anti-semitic? Even if it is unfailry bigotted against Israelis, it can't be bigotted against Jews soecifically if it in fact supports Jews who are also anti-Israel.

Ah who cares - as far as the Israel supporters are concerned I am an anti-semite no matter what I say, so I can't be bothered arguing with them because there is simply no changing their minds.

Israel is a failed state founded on racism and violence that has continued that racism and violence throughout its existence, I couldnt care less if they are Jews, Arabs or friggin martians, the nation of Israel should be replaced with a nation NOT founded on racism - one that accepts both Jews and Arabs and is controlled by neither religion.

The only problem is none of the religions involved will accept that.

[cali]

21. So to be consistent

do you advocate with the SAME fervency that Saudi Arabia and numerous other Muslim nations that discrimnate far more than Israel be replaced by nations that accept all religions?

Funny, I haven't seen you do that.

[Orangeone]

24. People object

to PAYING for the discrimination. Sure Saudi Arabia is bad, but they aren't freeloading off of US taxpayers and they are useful for keeping the price of oil cheap.

[cali]

26. Let me get this straight:

You only object to discrimination and human rights abuses when The U.S. helps fund it, otherwise it's OK? You do realize we fund Egypt, and sell the Saudis billions in weapons, don't you?

[pelsar]

29. silence......

so cali....as an israeli, who has no problem with my govt being criticized for wrongs, percieved wrongs, etc....how would suggest i take the above posts?....anti Semitic?..no i dont think the posters "hate jews"...on the other had there is something percular about israel.

They appear to be so pissed at israeli "racism" (which in the case of israel the racial inequality more represents the imperfect society) that israel should be destroyed, but Saudi Arabia, Egypt where racisim and hate is actually part of the culture (dare i even say iran?)...well they get a pass.

do you have a name for it?

[cali]

30. I don't

except that it appears to be reflexive; part of an ideology bought wholesale, without any real thought. Though I agree that it's not antisemitism for the most part: More kneejerk than anything else.

[Phx_Dem]

58. How about "Pharisaism"?

[Violet_Crumble]

31. I've never seen you criticise yr own govt, pelsar...

Maybe you could point me to some posts where you have done that?

btw, who is 'they'? I can't recall ever seeing a DUer who supports racism and hate from any country*. Maybe you could point me to all those posts as well?

* on edit: Except of course for the posts from a few in the I/P forum who oppose discriminatory citizenship laws when it's Arab states doing it, but support similar sorts of discriminatory laws when Israel does it :)

[pelsar]

37. On the DU?...almost never...

once or twice when some settlers in Hebron did some particulary despicable deed that i knew was to be true. Mostly my time here seems to be spent being amazed at the amount of simple lies/ignorence/gross overstatements concerning israel and making some comments on it. Some political, some military (though i am hardly an expert, i was corrected last week by one who knew more about artillery than me). Having an intelligent discussion about the israeli govt, its policies (minus the conspiracies...)and discussing real world solutions, political and military, using the limitations of todays world never seems to get very far....I'm still waiting for the poster who would be willing to discuss with me not just solutions, but the problems with those same solutions...

nobody ever has...


Calis post was right on....poster claiming israel shouldnt exist due to a non existant racist society but when questioned about others that actually have "built in racism"....silence.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. Yeah, I remember yr opinion of the Hebron settlers...

We were in total agreement about them. I'd personally like to get an Israeli's view on Olmert and how much of this is him driving things and how much of it is the military chiefs, if that makes sense...

Ah, I refused to continue to discuss solutions with you and still will refuse to unless The Blame Game can be removed from things. Though I think given what's happening over there, any discussion of solutions will get swallowed up by all the noise here at DU...

fwiw, and I figure you might already know this, but imo those who think Israel shouldn't exist are already off to a bad start with me, and adding to that with very broadbrush strokes about the entire Israeli society (of course some segments of it are pretty racist, and every country has those sort of lowlifes) just makes it worse...

[pelsar]

46. there actually is a difference about the settlers....

i suspect you see them in some manner of religious fanatics, along the same lines of hamas etc....I see them as far worse....part of it because they "represent me" to others...but more so, because i can deal with hamas etc.....i dont "hate" the hamasnik, i perhaps will blame part of their "outlook" on life to their enviroment-israeli/arab etc...but for the hebron settler, they dont have that excuse.

i despise those living in hebron (the others are a mixed bag)....words cannot express my contempt for them, their beliefs, their actions....(its when you see them in action, then you wonder if they are actually human beings)

______

Olmert is an unknown....we dont know if the military is manipulating him or not. Whats more interesting is the defense minister, peretz. I suspect part of his actions are based on living in sederot and the shit he recieved when the kassams kept falling.

[TahitiNut]

55. Kiryat Arba is hardly unique

[Karmakaze]

51. The problem is not many nations have LEADERS....

that are as racist as many of Israel's, and get away with it.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"<The Palestinians> are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

From day one, the story has been the same - it has been dressed up or whispered behind scenes, but it has always been there.

[pelsar]

54. thats it?

thats your proof that israel is a racist society that has no place on this earth?..that it should be replaced with........some sort of non existant utopia (perhaps you have an example of this utopia so i'll better understand?)

perhaps its better to ask some arab israelis or Bedouin or druze where they prefer to live?...israel or lebanon israel or within palestine..israel or syria....

you would think that they're everyday lives might be a bit more telling of whether or not israel is a country to be destroyed....or doesnt their opinons count....i mean they're arabs, they live there...they might even know things that you dont.

[Karmakaze]

50. No, not silence - not HERE...

Of course I am here now so I will answer your question - yes those nations need to be democratic. Of course Israel doesnt want that because if they were Israel would be in REAL shit.

The reason I single out Israel (in your mind) is cause I have never met anyone who said different. Also, None of those nations are currently occupying another nation and killing its people.

If you want to debate my opinion that the people of Saudi Arabia and Iran should overthrow their governments and work towords becoming modern democratic states, then I am all for it. However I see no point in arguing when no one disagrees.

[pelsar]

53. thats one answer....

israel doesnt want democratic countries as neighbors because.....they might get along?.....its ok..i'm sure you have a reason that the diabolical israelis dont want to live in peace

and i'm equally sure that you had no idea about the following. Its not exactly front page news, because.......


syria i believe is occuping the kurdish nation (and killing them when necessary.)
According to Amnesty International there are still 150.000 stateless Kurds in Syria and Kurds are discriminated.

http://vladimirkurdistan.blogspot.com/2006/03/remembering-massacre-in-hassake.html


Saudi Arabia is building a wall in "disputed area"...and its only just begun
News reports in Sanaa said that Yemen notified Saudi Arabia its objection to build a separation wall along its borders in a way violates the border demarcation agreement between the two countries.
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/040202/2004020212.html

[Karmakaze]

106. No Israel doesnt want democratic nations...

as neighbours, because Israel has MASSIVELY pissed off the PEOPLE of those theoretically democratic nations who may then decide not to allow American pressure to prevent them from doing something about it. Which is also why the US doesnt want democratic nations - they have far too much influence over the dictatorships to risk allowing the PEOPLE to screw up their control of the oil.

Kurdish nation? Ok... Occupying a part of YOUR OWN country is kind of impossible. Now Kurds wish to split these parts off and form a new nation, but that is not the same as occupying a foreign nation by a long shot.

"The rejection came after the Saudi authorities started to build the wall in an area on which Yemen says that it is considered by the border demarcation agreement as an empty zone."

That is clearly a border dispute that does NOT involve occupation of another nation but use of a zone between the two borders Yemen claims was defined as an empty zone. Good try though.

[Orangeone]

34. I count

the money going to Egypt as a bribe so that they won't fight with Israel.

Countries are usually not moral but work in their self interest, how does giving money to Israel with no-strings-attached help U.S.? Morality often doesn't play into which countries U.S. calls it's friends, but our support for Israel is illogical...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. Not Directly

But if you added up the amount of money we spend directly to keep the House Of Saud intact through defense expenditures it's a lot more than what we give to Israel.

Oh, and oil at eighty dollars a barrel isn't cheap. The only reason they don't charge more is because when it reaches a certain price it will literally become unaffordable. In other words the quickest way to get $10.00 a barrel oil is for oil producing nations to charge $100.00 for it.

[Karmakaze]

48. What was the last war started by Saudi Arabia?

I do in fact believe that the people of Saudi Arabia should overthrow their "leaders" and create a democratic state. In fact that is the policy of most democratic nations - that democracy is better than dictatorship. Of course Israel woudlnt liek the outcome of the Suad's being overthrown so no one ever advocates for that.

The point is I do not talk about these things because no one disagrees that those nations should become democratic. But, Israel is this special case - a nation that the world seems to have decided is allowed to be different from everyone else by proclaiming it a state for a single religion/ethnic group and that nothing should be allowed to threaten that status.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. Are You Saying There Is Religious Freedom In Saudi Arabia?

Did you know that non-Muslims don't even have standing in Saudi courts?

[Karmakaze]

110. No, I didnt say that. But I did say...

that the people would love to have a say in the matter. The answer they give may not be the one we want to hear, but isnt that democracy?

[sistersofmercy]

67. I have this debate with a friend of mine

He is very pro-Israel I'm not particular anything but pro-human rights I guess. I try very hard to see the issues from all sides. Anyway we at least agreed about the brutality of Saudi, our buddies, who produced 15 of the 19 hijackers. The Saudis who force women to wear burkas, behead people and do all sorts of atrocious oppression. Saudi Arabia is a real problem. Talk about should never have been created. Those friggin' British map makers really screwed up. The Saudi multitude hate the oppressive monarchy and the west for creating it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

99. Saudi Arabia was created by the Saudi royal family, by force

It would have meant another colonial war for the British to have an effect on its borders.

[DistressedAmerican]

22. So now were not just being called anti-semites...

We're being called anti-semites in denial? Bull.

Contrary to this stupid and innacurate article, criticism of Israel IS NOT anti-semitism and we are not in denial of that fact.

You just found someone to call us anti-semites in a far better written way that you've been able to shout it.

Does not make it any more thue coming from this source than coming from you directly.

[malaise]

43. Di Nile

is one of the rivers the Zionists want.:D

[muriel_volestrangler]

49. The excerpts of the article given in the OP are highly selective

Read the whole thing, and you find the author's position is actually that it's only when someone calls for the complete abolishment of the state of Israel, and the removal of Jews from the area, that it becomes 'antisemitism'. Above, I posted that website's (it's a small British communist party - probably the same author - 'Sean') position on the current conflict, and he says Israel is recklessly killing civilians, and must stop; he also criticises Hizbollah.

[burythehatchet]

25. OMG , you've convinced me!

[originalpckelly]

32. I am truly deeply hurt by this. Everyone else should be as well...

I don't want people to die. I guess that passes for anti-semitism these days.

This is a very shallow article that fails to address those people who happen to be Jewish, who also happen to NOT support this bloodshed. I guess those people are written off as "self-hating Jews."

This is perhaps the most offensive thing I have ever read, and the fact this hate speech came out of the mind of someone on our side, really disappoints me. I thought we were supposed to be capable of civilized debate, I was wrong.

[DistressedAmerican]

33. Sadly nadinebrazinski sad EXACTLY that same thing about herself

just yesterday. Said that she too criticizes Israel on occasion then put in parentheses (self-hating jew).

I find it amazing that anyone would be so dedicated to the proposition that criticism of Israel is anti-semitic that they would call themselves, a jew, an anti-semite for their totally legitimate criticism of Israel.

It was stunning.

Of course when I pointed it out, she refused to reply to my post on the issue.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[entanglement]

36. What constitutes Left 'anti-semitism'

1) Outing Israeli crimes against humanity
2) Opposing collective punishment, racism, apartheid and militarism practiced by Israel
3) Debating Israel firsters / apologists / Israeli supremacists

[oc2002]

42. ah, Dershowitz would be proud of that twisted logic.

Sorry. but your just repeating the same twisted logic that has been debunked by many Jewish writers like Norman Finkelstein, "Beyond Chutzpah:ON THE MISUSE OF ANTI-SEMITISM AND THE ABUSE OF HISTORY"

There is a difference between zionism which is support for the state of Israel and what we have now is extreme ultra right wing zionism and its militaristic answer to all problems....bomb them all and let god sort them out.

[PATRICK]

60. Narrowing the perspective

is not a good sign. if you broaden it out to all the lousy responses the Jewish people had to historic pressure you see there is an escalation of suffering and cost each time they start rising to the level of the worldly powers. Confederation was weak. Reliance on heroic warlords and heroes was spotty and unpredictable. Kingship was an unmitigated disaster after the catastrophic success of Solomon. Returning to the Solomon imperial borders is still the epitome of geographic and ethnic hubris. retrenching, entrenching in strict exclusivity or melting into the pagan world were two extremes. No nation or people ever found the narrow path that actually enable some of the Jews to carry on over the centuries.

In a spiritual sense Zionists were similar to the Babylonian exiles(founders of modern Judaism) and similar to the clash they had with the natives and the neighbors on their idealistic, restrictive return to a more spiritual but more theocratic reformation of Israel. What was the narrow path? The one that enabled them to find and found again their land among Semitic peoples also tormented by a long subjugation, slaughters and loss of their own civilization. As always, the issue was a spiritual one, but as always the divisions give the upper hand to the people who trust to the sword. A prophetic minority can witness another failure, another catastrophe. The truth seems so far away and ideal that we forget the power of communication that shows us clearly most people want and can achieve it if they set aside the negative baggage and the few who lay it upon them in their fear. Christians who similarly fail their own faith, twisting it completely out of shape and sanity, point out this same failure of vertiginous fear and catastrophe imposed over and over again on those failing to make their stand for hope.

It's an old story. The solution is the same and ever more hopeful. The lie is enforced by bombs and fear, but it changes nothing except the number of early graves and the success of a theocratic nation state- which has nothing to do in essence with a people or its faith if it is reduced to an empty cause and death. Who is destroying Israel? Everyone who kills is joined in that. Who is supporting Israel? Everyone who builds up all the other peoples and nations in freedom and peace. Without freedom and peace Israel is a goal that cannot be achieved by conquering land. That was done and it is not nearly enough. More displays of violence only prove the failure. Many of the truly faithful will leave the abomination of living like this, others will stay to witness to the sorrow of the dream betrayed.

I can less understand and sympathize with people not only not engaged directly in this tearing trial of impossible proportions, but whose nations have suffered or caused to suffer in their own history and in our times worse things for less provocation or cause. In our short adventure in Islamic colonialism we have caused the death of far more children for mere greed or advantage with less emotion or reaction. I find it very hard to say this people or that are better or worse than any other, even in extreme situations. Crabbing a small, manageable portion of hate weeds out the compassion we need to get the human family back together.

[mdelaguna2000]

62. Eloquent - merits its own thread n/t.

[burythehatchet]

68. PATRICK, that is one of the finest posts on this subject

please start a new thread with it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

69. They Also Tried To Assimilate

Those results were mixed to say the least.

[PATRICK]

74. Those who assimilated

in Babylon are among the ancestors of the Iraqi population perhaps. They never came back and I think the religion died out among them. It was probably the majority, a more sensible, socializing majority. In Christendom they were never allowed to assimilate as Jews and those they restricted and tagged became a way to eventually reach out to "assimilators" at will. those that sided with Spain, the Communist, etc. all got the persecution backhand BECAUSE they maintained a religious/people identity different than the cultural unity and ideology. That lunacy too left a back-door wide open for all the other darker hatreds and evils. One dirty hand soils another and their allies and friends and comrades become the mob, the Inquisitor, the KGB.

The narrow path seems harrowing, with no illusions, the perils plainly visible and menacing on all sides.
Most people never get on it for that simple reason, although it could be like riding a bicycle or a horse. Talk about miraculous privilege, thinking a Gandhi or anything could work without guns and clubs.
Yet some Jews talk about having faith in such a Providence even if God did not exist. Even without a religion I would have faith that people could do this. And if they don't, and we all fall, well, whose point does THAT prove? We may not merit survival but we would have more personal integrity and peace if we tried the only way that can work. By first living peace and dying with it intact in the heart- as long as we can in a world of choices and dangers. Why kill a child hoping we can achieve this? That peace means nothing and is a lie. Lies you believe kill you before you physically die.

[Lerkfish]

61. "what is left-antisemitism"? an ad hominem attack designed to deflect

valid criticism of Isreal policies for which the accuser has no coherent justification.


next question.

[jonnyblitz]

63. they aren't fooling anybody.

:thumbsup:

[oberliner]

70. what about right-antisemitism?

I completely agree that some (especially on the right - Rush Limbaugh types) will use charges of anti-semitism as a way to silence valid criticisms of Israeli policies.

Would you agree that there are right-wingers who criticize Israel and include anti-semitism in their critique (i.e. Jews control America, Israelis are worse than the Nazis, etc)?

Do you think it's fair for people to condemn those sorts of statements as anti-semitism when and if they are part of someone's criticism of Israel?

Has any post here or elsewhere in the progressive community ever crossed over the line from criticizing Israeli policies into making the sorts of statements (Jews control America, Israelis are worse than the Nazis) that are considered anti-semitic in nature?

[Lerkfish]

87. I don't see the need to label it one way or the other, if there is an

argument over whether a country's policys and strategies are valid.
I find it is used indiscriminately as a method to shut down an argument that makes someone uncomfortable.
I would expect NOT to be labeled antisemitic if I object to the current incursion into lebanon. There is no reason if I object to military actions, period, that I have to suffer being labeled something hateful.
If people cannot separate valid criticism of strategy and tactics of a country from racism, then I find the labels meaningless at that point and then when you NEED to point out antisemistism, it has watered down the accusation to the point of impotence.

IMHO

[Armstead]

64. Oh Bullshit

That's the equivalent of saying that everyone who opposes Bush and the Neo-Cons are "anti-American."

[sportndandy]

71. And opposing Bush means hating America. BS I say!

And by the way, I am Jewish.

So the Israelis who oppose the war are anti-semetic as well?

[Zodiak]

72. You decide if I am an anti-semite

I grew up in North Texas. I never met a Jewish person until I was in my late 20's when I moved to Manhattan. I am a musician, and played in a band there. It was my band mates who welcomed me in, introduced me to their friends, and basically showed me a great time and a great freindship. Every one of them was Jewish. They told me practically the minute I met them...they were proud of it. I admire that.

They called me "Hank Hill" because of my slight accent and tendency to say "Y'all".

I honestly admitted to them that I knew nothing at all about Judaism save that they do not believe in Jesus and the holocaust and Spanish Inquisition really sucked. They were quite surprised by two things:

1. They had no idea that a person can get through so much life without having any experiences with Jews.
2. That my North Texas upbringing did not train me to be an anti-semite. I simply nad no opinion.

My experiences in New York have shown me that every Jewish person I met there was friendly, caring, and American to the bone. They showed me the differences between Hacidism, Reform, Orthodox, and corrected me on my erroneous assumption that they do not "believe" in Jesus. They made jokes that they would convert me, eventually. They answered in all seriousness every question I had, even correcting some of my ignorance. They showed me tapes of holocaust footage that their parents had...as a pagan, I can only begin to grasp the burden of "never again!". They loved Israel in the same way we love America....they love the land and the people but did not always agree with the government there. Some did, some didn't, and agreement was issue-driven, not ideological.

It is because of all of this experience that I do NOT equate Jews with Israel. Heck, I don't even equate Israelis with their goverment....just as I do not necessarily do that with Americans. My band mates were bandmates foremost...the Jewish thing was just added flavoring, and a new and fun experience for me (I like learning new things...cultures fascinate me).

I do not agree with Israel's attacks. I think it is reckless, a war crime, and detrimental to both US and Israeli interests in the long-term. I do not believe that terrorism is an excuse to slaughter civilians in an act of war. Also, I do not believe that Jews are to blame for this. I blame a failure of US diplomacy, a failure of the presiding government in Israel in keeping a level head, and I blame Hezbollah for providing fodder for the offensive excuses we are hearing daily (6 Israeli civlians killed today).

I do not wish to see Israel expand, nor do I wish to see the territory acquired in 1967 to remain in the hands of Israel. I do not see that as a way to peace. That is my opinion.

So judge me. You know how I feel, now, and you know my history. Am I a left anti-semite?

[Lurking Dem]

75. No.

And there is not a single poster here who would accuse you of being one.

[Zodiak]

76. Thanks. Good to know.

I try to be honest about these sorts of things because I do not claim that my Texas upbringing didn't do its damage. I have latent racism and homophobia that I fight against each and every day. And I have guilt that these feelings are still there, though greatly and consciously supressed.

I can't work on something if I do not admit it is there.

[Lurking Dem]

79. I'm a Texas Jew

now living in Tennessee.

Talk about "damage". :P

[DemocratSinceBirth]

81. I Think The Writer

I think the writer draws the line at wanting the disestablishment of the entire state of Israel for such a result would result in the literal destruction of a great many Jews.

And to pre-empt the suggestion this could be achieved peacefully when has a nation voluntarily disappeared.


Maybe this makes sense. I "support" the concept of the USA as united entity while being critical of it's leadership as I can "support" the concept of Israel as a united entity while being critical of it's leadership.

[Zodiak]

83. I agree

Israel is there to stay.

I honestly do not think that many people would want to argue otherwise. That would be "ethnic cleansing" talk and would get my ignore button pretty fast.

Once you are there, you are there, but there is also an obligation to try to get along with one's neighbors. That goes both ways.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

77. What is "left Anti-Semitism"? Mostly a myth.

There are probably a few on the left who are actually anti-semites. I've never run across any. I have run across leftists, of various stripes, who are anti-Zionist, Pro-Palestinian, anti-Nationalist, etc, but none who are "anti-Jew".

As for me, I'm an Anarchist. I loathe nationalism in all it's forms. Israeli, Palestinian, Lebanese, Jewish, Muslim, American, even Irish tho' my grandmother came from Ireland (with my mother in tow) and railed against the Brit overlords. Not from Irish "patriotism". She also railed against the Irish bosses and the priests that ran the country after the Brits left.

To hell with all the killers who use race, or country, or religion, or ethnicity, or anything else to justify murder.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. No it is not

and over the last two weeks we have seen grorious examples of it in this place

[k_jerome]

88. have you not learned...it is the offenders...

that determine what is offensive. not the group being attacked.

[Lurking Dem]

92. I have found that to be one of the most

interesting aspects of what is going on here.

If a black person stated that something was offensive, would 30 white people attempt to tell him why he was wrong? How many would accuse him of using the race card?

[k_jerome]

93. there is always safety in numbers when...

espousing some of the views I have seen here lately. Expressing bigoted views is always easier when done from a crowd.

[MadHound]

80. Interesting, isn't it

That the same source from which you drew this article is also overwhelmingly calling for Israel to stop their bloody and senseless attack. Hmmmm.<http://www.workersliberty.org/taxonomy/term/82>

[k_jerome]

89. yeah, without using anti semitic rhetoric and codewords...

that is interesting. it can be done.

[muriel_volestrangler]

103. It's been done hundreds of times on DU in the past 3 weeks

The vast majority of DUers who oppose the Israeli government's bombing of Lebanon have done so without any trace of antisemitism. You must define what you regard as 'codewords' for that observation to mean anything.

[Bretttido]

82. Bullshit

I don't care if Israel is made up of 1000 religions and ethnicities; they're still blowing the fuck out of civilians, THAT is what I have a problem with. You're out of arguments so you jump on the bandwagon of accusing people that don't agree with you of anti-semitism. Such a load of fucking BS!!!! :grr:

[k_jerome]

91. what is it that Shakespeare said about protesting too much? nt.

[Bretttido]

98. Oh, so because I protest that you insinuate that people like me who

oppose the war are actually anti-Semitic, I must be anti-Semitic, right? Whatever makes you feel better about innocent women and children dying...

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TahitiNut]

109. "your crusade"??

Despicable!

[Bretttido]

111. Tell me about it, he might as well stop dancing around words and say it

"You're an anti-semite."

[warrens]

84. Flame-bait and strawman argument

pffft

[confludemocrat]

94. Yep.

[KamaAina]

85. There is no such thing

Anti-Semites, along with bigots generally, are NOT part of MY left!

[robcon]

86. How do you explain two anti-semites who ran for president

as Democrats: Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Anti-semitism is a small part of the Democratic Party. Neither Jackson nor Sharpton ever had a chance to win, but they were/are anti-semites.

[Marr]

95. I'm so sick of hearing self-righteous assholes calling people anti-semites

because they disagree with their opinions on Israel. Really. That article even suggests that Jews who disgree with the polciies of Israel's government are anti-semites. Pathetic.

[earth mom]

96. This is bullshit and flame bait.

:grr:

[Lerkfish]

100. and yet, it remains

amazing, isn't it?

[earth mom]

102. Yeah and What's up with that?!

We can't say what we think of them...I know because I got a post deleted for it. :grr:

[Lerkfish]

107. I can only assume rules are applied inconsistently

since the new rule specificially proscribes this very sort of thread.

[earth mom]

108. Exactly what I was thinking too.

Alerting is a good idea....maybe they haven't read em yet. :shrug:

edited for clarity

[JCMach1]

97. I don't support any action taken by the right-wing Israeli government

I don't believe that makes any more anti-semitic than anti-american when I criticize my own government...

Frankly, there are people in both that need to be proscecuted for war crimes...

[High Plains]

104. Get this crap off our boards!

[manic expression]

105. What's delusion?

you've demonstrated it quite well.

[Moderator]

112. locking

This has become inflammatory.