I whole heartedly support Israel

[Cleetus]

Israel blocking aid
Israel killing babies
Israel over-reacting

Let's go to the root cause of decades worth of hostilities. Arab nations surrounding Israel (including Lebanon, thanks to Hezbollah) simply won't accept the presence of a non-Muslim state in the mideast. They deny Israel the right to exist.

This shit has been going on since 1947 without a moments rest.

Arab nations adjacent to Israel deny her her right to exist. For 6 decades missles have been fired into Israel on an almost daily basis. Suicide bombers detonate themselves in civillian population centers.

Hezbollah are terrrorists waging their war from the civillian suburbs, placing rocket launchers on the roofs of apartment buildings. They are terrorists. They are loving this, and they could care less about what happens to Lebanon. They're not in this for Lebanon, they're in this for themselves.

I have been a Liberal Democrat for years and years. While many of you were nothing but a twinkle in your daddy's eye, I was out protesting to get us out of Viet Nam.

OK, flame away...

[mmonk]

1. Keep on killing

if it helps your soul. Screw peace attempts. Let the lesser people of Lebanon die like pigs. Israel is justified to slaughter them all and let god sort them out.

[Cleetus]

4. I never said that

Keep on killing? I totally want a cease fire. Can I ask you a question?

Why can't I support Israel and desire a ceasefire at the same time?

[mmonk]

10. You can.

I support Israel's right to exist. I know the history. I also know it won't end if this becomes a brutal slaughter. There are limits to "self defense" to where it can't be argued.

[mmonk]

12. Also,

I was protesting Viet Nam as well. And during Watergate, I had a bumper sticker that read "Nixon is a plumbers friend". So I'm not young and naive if that's a theme.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. Gee perhaps he just misinterpreted

"Israel blocking aid
Israel killing babies
Israel over-reacting"

The first three lines of your missive titled "I whole heartedly support Israel".

[mmonk]

46. That indeed is what set me off.

I really didn't mean to have a heavy handed response. I'm just tired of it all including the finger pointing at who started what. All of this is unfolding like an Al Queda and Neocon wet dream. All this carnage and provocations needs to stop. But sadly too many now look at this to take advantage and exploit the situation further. The funny thing about wars is that they are unpredictable as to what they may produce. I hate war and the people that want it.

[liberalhistorian]

26. Can I ask YOU a question?

The Israeli attitude toward the Lebanese and Gaza citizens is not that dissimilar to the "dehumanization" attitude Jews have had to endure for centuries. Why, then, does Israel have no problem with treating others in that same way?

And here's another question. How can you possibly justify the murders of U.N. observers and the Quana attack, among other atrocities? And how can you continually believe Israel when it calls such incidents a "mistake", especially when they're always boasting about their "precision aim" weapons? It appears all Israel has to do is say "Hezbollah" and their actions, no matter how horrible or suspicious, are instantly excused.

And don't think for a moment that all of this is actually making Israelis safer. Quite the contrary. The children who saw their families and friends blown up in front of them will become future fighters against Israel, unfortunately. How any Israeli could possibly believe otherwise is beyond me.

[cool user name]

24. I support Israel ...

To stop murdering civilians and to finally understand that she can be a nation within 1967 borders.

I support her to live in peace with her neighbors.

I support her to make amends and to reconcile with the Palestinians.

[laura888]

37. Exactly. thank you! n/t

[cool user name]

41. Thank common sense.

But thank you for thanking me.

:D

[formactv]

2. OK old sage

Tell us about the origin of Israel .

[Junkdrawer]

3. So Israel can do anything to Arabs because Arabs won't support Israel?

No comment.

[beyurslf]

5. Well having not been around when Israel was created by the western

powers after WWII, I can't figure out why it exists in the first place. Flame that.

[GOPBasher]

11. If we go back far enough in history, both sides have legitimate claims

to the same land. That is the source of the problem. I think Israel has a right to exist, at the 1967 borders. I think Palestine has a right to exist, made up of Gaza, the West Bank and Eastern Jerusalem. If they can both agree to that, and stop fighting, it would be nice. However, I am so sick and tired of both damn sides in this ongoing war. They are both completely incapable of peace. I'm really at the point that I just don't even want to think about it anymore. What the hell is wrong with coexisting with multiple cultures?

[Critters2]

31. How does Israel have a legitimate right to the same land

as the Palestinians? They showed up, claimed other people's land, and said God gave it to 'em. How is that legitimate?

Flame away, but I don't see how Israel's claim to the land is legitimate.

[InaneAnanity]

6. Do you have any problem...

...with Israel's unlawful occupation of the West Bank and Gaza over the last 35 years???

Do you have any problem with the apparent ethnic cleansing and Israeli colonization of the area??

[liberalhistorian]

27. Apparently not, and neither do any

of the other Israel-right-or-wrong folks.

[jonnyblitz]

38. and that is EXACTLY what is going on. nt

[Clarkie1]

7. I agree with mostly, but I'm a little uncomfortable with

"Israel blocking aid
Israel killing babies
Israel over-reacting"

Blocking aid...o.k., no problem

Killing babies is a tragedy, and to just say there's no problem with that makes me very uncomfortable. I do believe it can legitimately be argued that Israel's goal of destroying the terrorist militias can prevent more babies being killed in the future. I certainly hope Israel does all it can to avoid civilian casualties. They know that every image of a dead baby or child hurts them...they do not want dead civilians if it can be avoided.

Whether or not Israel is "over-reacting" is a matter of debate. Isreal has a military objective...the eliminatin of the Hezbollah militia from southern Lebanon, and all indications are they are going to continue the military operation until that objective is achieved. I do not believe Israel will stop the current action until they feel there is little or no possibility or no possibility or the Hezbollah militia gaining such a stronghold on their northern border.

[Warren Stupidity]

15. "Blocking aid...o.k., no problem"

So it is ok to block medical workers and supplies from reaching the victims of Israeli attacks on the people of South Lebanon? How exactly is that also not a war crime?

[burythehatchet]

18. Completely lost the plot.

They have no idea how much harm they've done/continue to do to themselves.

[liberalhistorian]

28. Sure they do, they'll just blame it all on

Hezbollah and get away with it, like they've been doing so far.

[Clarkie1]

33. Absolutely not. That is not O.K. nt

I was thinking of that statement in another context entirely, as in economic aid to countries that support terrorism.

[Crunchy Frog]

45. A "little uncomfortable"

with killing babies? Gosh, that's comforting.:eyes:

[uppityperson]

8. Why has it been going on since 1947?

[Slaughtermeyer]

30. Because Britain didn't give Palestine independence when it took over

It's been going on because Britain did not give Palestine independence in 1918 when it took it over from the Ottoman Empire, and did not allow the Palestinians to set their own immigration policy. It was Britain that decided how many Jews could emigrate to Palestine, not the Palestinians. Any time you have an injustice of this magnitude, there's going to be conflict.

[greatauntoftriplets]

9. I was out there protesting Vietnam as well.

Did you serve? Volunteer for the IDF in 1967? You don't sound like someone who has seen the horrors of war. My SO did and 40 years later he still has nightmares about the killing fields.

[Don Claybrook]

13. sleep well

there's something really messed up about supporting baby murder.

[tnlefty]

16. Kill'em all, let God sort it out. There is no longer any reason for

peaceful conflict resolution. For everyone that you kill another will arise, so therefore, you must Kill Them All. Much akin to the futility of full on nuclear war.

[mike_c]

17. for crying out loud Israel exists because it stole Palestinian arab land..

...kicked them into camps, and has ground them under a slow ethnic cleansing and apartheid ever since. Israel is a classic apartheid state. Folks tend to forget that there are REASONS for arab anger-- arab muslims are not all blind racists, they have some legitimate complaints that neither Israel nor the rest of the world has ever properly addressed. Israel could start by fulling implementing UN Res. 242-- that would go a LONG way toward creating peace in the Middle East, IMO. Israel has utterly stonewalled 242 for decades, while the Palestinians languished in squalor and uncertainty about their own future as a nation. You cannot discuss this conflict rationally without remembering how it started-- the forced partition of the Palestine Mandate without the agreement of the arab Palestinians, and what amounted to a huge and unjustified land grab by the Zionists after a protracted terror campaign. Folks in the region have long memories-- but they don't really need them, because Israel continues the oppression to the present day.

[InaneAnanity]

21. Some arabs are blind racists

but there are legitimate reasons for arab anger.

What we all need to realize is that Israel has been trying to clear room for itself for decades, slowly expanding its borders and killing those arabs in the way.

This all-out assault on Lebanon seems so connected to their ongoing conflict in Palestine. It's about expanding the borders of Israel. Hezbollah is just the excuse du-jour.

[scarletwoman]

29. Lebensraum

Israel has been trying to clear room for itself for decades, slowly expanding its borders and killing those arabs in the way.

The Arab world knows this very well, even if our own propaganda-stupified public can't see through all the smoke and mirrors that have been thrown up.

sw

[leftofthedial]

19. Kill! Kill! Kill!

Kill 'em all!

Kill 'em faster!

More and more and more death!

Kill kill KILL!

[Ms. Clio]

20. fuck this noise n/t

[EFerrari]

22. Your choice! Welcome to my ignore list.

[cool user name]

23. Read some history ...

Once you've done that, read it again.

Once you've done that, then thoroughly comprehend what you have read.

Then think for no less than 30 minutes in total silence.

Then proceed to making amends for the falsities you just spouted.

[Pepper32]

25. Ok, thanks for letting me know, now I can no longer see you!

Sicko! :eyes:

[Beelzebud]

32. Fucking A! Lets kill as many children as possible

I LOVE WAR!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW Cleetus (your name is appropiate), you're fucking ignored!!!!

[MysteryToMyself]

34. My conscience won't let me support Israel

What have you gained if you gain the world and lose your soul?

The Lebanese love their children, homes and land as much as the rest of us. So do the Iraqi. Do you consider them human and if so how do you rationalize those babies being smothered to death with dirt caused by the bombing of Israel?

America and Israel leaders are so wrong. There are more civilians dying in Iraq than in Lebanon. They are ruthless. I wouldn't want to be them on Judgement Day.

No one has the right to do what they did to the children. There isn't a reason good enough to do that.

War takes away all laws and ignores the 10 commandments. Truth is the first victim of war, they say. "Thou shall not kill" is a commandment broken. War is vicious. That is why old men like Bush and Omar shouldn't plot to start wars. War should be the last resort.

[thethinker]

35. OK, you whole heartedly support Israel

Israel is on a suicide mission. This is not going to end until Israel & the US gets Syria and Iran into a war. That is where this is heading. It is suicidal, especially for Israel.

Go read what Brzezinski is saying. He says the Muslims will eventually run us out of there, and Israel will be left on it's own to defend itself. We are already near bankruptcy and we have no more soldiers without a draft. If we have a draft, how do you think that will go?

This will not end well for Israel if Syria and Iran get into this war.

Do you tell your kids to play in the streets, and your SO to drive drunk? Why would you encourage Israel to start something they cannot finish?

[Malikshah]

36. Looks like a history lesson is in order.

At least make one's decision based upon reality vs. soundbites. After all, we're supposed to be a bit discerning.

Look at the agreements reached over the years re: right to exist.

Look at the methods used to establish a Western-oriented state in this region, carved up for European interests.

Look at the bombs in Arab markets during the Mandate period

Folks here are old enough to read the history... Try Charles Smith's book (it's a college textbook with accompanying documents) Try Avi Shlaim's Iron Wall

Get a grip on reality. Then let's discuss the issues.

[MoseyWalker]

39. Hey! War and death happens!

Some things in life are bad
They can really make you mad
Other things just make you swear and curse
When you're chewing on life's gristle
Don't grumble, give a whistle
And this'll help things turn out for the best
And...

...always look on the bright side of life
{whistle}
Always look on the light side of life
{whistle}

If life seems jolly rotten
There's something you've forgotten
And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing
When you're feeling in the dumps
Don't be silly chumps
Just purse your lips and whistle - that's the thing

And... always look on the bright side of life
{whistle}
Come on
Always look on the bright side of life
{whistle}

For life is quite absurd
And death's the final word
You must always face the curtain with a bow
Forget about your sin - give the audience a grin
Enjoy it - it's your last chance anyhow

So always look on the bright side of death
Just before you draw your terminal breath
Life's a piece of shit
When you look at it
Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true
You'll see it's all a show
Keep 'em laughing as you go
Just remember that the last laugh is on you

And always look on the bright side of life
{whistle}
Always look on the right side of life
{whistle}

Come on guys, cheer up

Always look on the bright side of life...

Always look on the bright side of life...

Worse things happen at sea, you know

Always look on the bright side of life...

I mean - what have you got to lose?
You know, you come from nothing
- you're going back to nothing
What have you lost? Nothing!

Always look on the bright side of life

[bigtree]

the Lebanese dead

what about the dead Lebanese? How do these get at Hizbollah? They seem unaffected by them.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

40. I carried Dump Dick signs as well.

Bullies piss me off. They're the biggest kid on the block over there and IMHO, they're behaving very badly and could do things very differently.

I was as anti war then as I am now. No matter who is waging it.

[lastknowngood]

42. Let's go to the root cause. The creation of Israel out of Arab lands

by force of arms. That is the root.

[Crunchy Frog]

43. I guess the only realistic solution is genocide against the Arabs.

You've also helped me to understand why it was so necessary for our government to exterminate the Native Americans. They didn't want us around and kept fighting us, therefore they had to go. Thanks for helping me gain a new perspective.

[Sparkly]

44. I'm not flaming

but I trust that you, like any sane human being, feel a piercing in your heart at the very thought of "killing babies." So you had to know what reaction those words alone would cause -- and surely, you didn't mean them.

(And many here think of Vietnam as a romantic era of ideals and flowers, principles and peace-signs, and frankly, don't seem aware of all the complex turmoil of the time, particularly what it meant to have a draft...)

Frankly, in my view, you're right that "this shit has been going on since 1947 without a moments rest." But I think it's a quagmire of two things: first, religious zeal on ALL sides, and second, western racism.

Hear me out.

First, religious zeal. I admit, this is coming from a UUer, but to me "fundamentalism" no matter WHAT the stripe is key, and the whole idea of "holy land" is insane to me, I confess. I don't claim to know who has "rights" to this land, but I do understand that the conflict is rooted in religion. All religions, as far as I know, preach peace. I know it seems simplistic, but I wish all sides could claim "PEACE" as the main thing and stop all the warring over the land!! (I know, simplistic.)

Second, western racism. I think modern Israel was born of the same stupid western logic that said, "We'll just shock and awe them in Iraq, and the stupid ragheads won't know how to respond," or "Terrorists just live in caves," etc... The same stupid logic that said, "We can bring 'primitive' black people here from Africa and make them slaves, they're too dumb to know or care about it." That, it seems to me, is the same stupid logic that caused them to think, "Oh, they'll just move on and find some other place to live."

When things are initiated by that logic, they're doomed to conflict -- from the notion of slavery, to the notion of Israel (to the more recent notion that "ragheads" would just "move along" when we bombed Iraq).

I don't know HOW Israel can survive in peace with its neighbors, frankly. Yes, "this shit has been going on since 1947 without a moments rest." I can't see an end to it, and yet I want Israel to survive.

(I posted a poll a week or so ago, asking whether Israel has a right to defend itself, to get that question off the table -- if you saw the answers, you'll know that this is an issue DU, it seems, has yet to reckon with. The very question gets knee-jerk reactions of the same kind you'd get if you asked other populations, "Should gays and lesbians have equal rights" or "Do women own their bodies" or "Are black people equal to whites" -- among THIS population, it seems, the question pisses people off!)

Whatever you do, don't stop counting yourself as a Liberal Democrat!!

[Moderator]

47. Locked.

Inflammatory.