Are the Israeli people morally responsible for the civilian deaths caused

[bryant69]

Poll question: Are the Israeli people morally responsible for the civilian deaths caused

in their name and with their tax money? Obviously this is in reference to the recent deaths in Lebanon, but also other things done to the Palestinians.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

1. They are as responsible as we are with Iraq and Afghanistan n/t

[villager]

2. exactly!

n/t

[JuniperLea]

4. Exactly as I was going to say

We are all guilty as hell.

[xultar]

12. AGREED! BRILLIANT! Excellent post.

[Zhade]

32. Perfect response.

NT!

[imperial jedi]

34. I agree compleetly !!

n/t

[IA_Seth]

3. I don't think so....

I don't agree with the actions (in Lebanon or the occupied territories of Palestine), but I don't think you can me "morally" responsible for something done in your name by a government if you disagree with them.

I would hate to think I am morally responsible for Bush's actions worldwide, as I didn't vote for him.

[Emit]

7. Yes, I agree.

If the poll were re-worded to say, "Are the hawkish members who made the decision..." or something to that effect, it would be more in line with my views.

I, too, would hate to think I am morally responsible for anything Bush & Co. has done in when I never voted for him and don't support him in any way, shape or form.

On edit to correct party affiliations, as pointed out by an astute DUer :blush:

[bryant69]

8. So you don't pay taxes?

[Emit]

9. Not many

Having three kids on one modest income, in all honesty, no, I don't pay many. Sales tax, property taxes, etc. Yes. But, seriously, just because I pay taxes I can be held morally responsible for Bush & Co.? Can you explain your reasoning?

[IA_Seth]

17. Ok..

My MONEY supports the actions, but that money is something I have no control over....

I've campaigned and help elect Democrats to combat Bush and the Republican party, but short of forcibly removing him (which I am not going to do), which of my actions makes me complicit to any crime Bush can do?

I don't feel my paying taxes to a country I live in makes me MORALLY responsible for what someone that I don't support does with those taxes.

I can feel guilty, and I do, but I am not responsible.

[Lurking Dem]

16. Are you aware

that Likud is no longer in power? Kadima is in a coalition with Labor.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. shhhh....

"Kadimist" doesn't sound as ominous and evil as "Likudist."

[Emit]

21. I stand corrected --

Thank you for pointing that out, and at the risk of seeming stupid, I was grappling with an adjective to use in that sentence that would convey my thought without sounding, well, prejudiced -- trying to be specific so as not to include any groups or people who shouldn't be held morally wrong, I guess. I knew the elections had occurred last spring and all -- btw, isn't the Kadima party the one that was formed by Sharon?

[JuniperLea]

13. If murder is being committed and you know about it

You are an accessory to murder.

In the grand scheme of things, we haven't done jack to stop him.

[Emit]

15. I'm at peace with my maker that my efforts, thus far, have been sufficient

Now, I may feel differently as time goes by, and my conscience may require greater action.

[JuniperLea]

18. How fortunate for you

I'll not rest or feel like I've done enough until the murders stop.

[Emit]

23. I haven't rested -- my peace comes from my actions

Fortunate? Please. Call my spouse and see how 'fortunate' we feel or how 'settled' things right now -- my concerns, intermittent frenzies, depressions, work and volunteer schedules, constant worries, going -- peace marches, candle light vigils, etc.

Please, cut the attitude. You imply I'm complacent about or condone what my government is doing. You do not know me well enough.

[JuniperLea]

26. I'm responding solely to your post

And have read nothing into it... perhaps it is you who needs to consider your posts rather than I having an attitude.

[IA_Seth]

27. Nah, pretty sure its the attitude. n/t

[JuniperLea]

28. What? Because I'm envious that another can rest easy

While I continue to feel guilty?

Bullshit.

[Emit]

31. But, it wasn't a question of guilt, as I understood the issue

I referred to my own feelings on the matter, and the original OP said something about "morally"...

My maker knows my stance on the matter, and knows my actions. I know my stance, too.

Am I 'guilty' of supporting Bush & Co.? No, of course not. I have a clear conscience on that matter. Am I guilty that others do support Bush? No, I have no control over the matter, except to try to educate them. Do I feel guilty -- no. Responsible? Yes, as a concerned citizen, of course, that's why I work for change. But 'morally responsible' for Bush's actions, no -- that implies that I made a conscious decision toward supporting or even agreeing, in my mind, something Bush did, like supported him, voted for him, etc. It's a different matter -- IMO.

Am I guilty of not doing anything? No. Do I need to stay vigilant in trying to make change. Of course. And I do, and I do more when I feel the need, which is daily now. I run a large team of volunteers -- I am responsible for an entire District of voters equalling 21,831. I walk every week, door to door. I call, email, train, do voter reg -- all to get the vote out in '06, '08 and beyond.

And on days when I'm at home with my kids, I periodically post on discussion forums and use it as a learning tool.

I think you may be misunderstanding my original point.

Edited, clarity and spelling

[JuniperLea]

33. Sounded to me as if you were absolving yourself

That you'd done your part, it was "sufficient".

All I said was, lucky you. No matter how much I or anyone else does, I never feel it's "sufficient"... not as long as there are still murders being committed in the name of the USA... and I'm a citizen of the USA.

I'm just calling bullshit on the accusation that I have attitude or have directed some sort of attitude toward anyone by means of saying how lucky someone else is that they don't feel continual guilt... because I do.

I never asked for a grocery list of things anyone has done here and I would never compare it to my own or anyone else's. All I'm saying is that no matter how much any of us do, as long as there are still murders being committed in our name, I don't feel it is "sufficient". I have a right to my feelings. And I do not judge anyone for what they have or have not done to contribute to the peace we all want.

You stated your feelings, I stated mine, and I got accused of giving attitude. All I'm saying is, bullshit.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. So we all go to the Hague?

[Emit]

25. Or, if there is another country capable

So we all get bombed?

Yikes, I would hope not.

[JuniperLea]

29. I'm just saying

We are all living, have food and shelter and enough resources to use a computer online. We are doing pretty damn well in comparison and we should all be doing more to stop the murders.


"In the grand scheme of things, we haven't done jack to stop him."


We should all be doing more. Bottom line.

[barb162]

37. Not true. Murder is being committed in Darfur, Somalia, etc

Are you personally doing anything about it. Should I blame you if you aren't? There is murder going on around the globe all the time somewhere

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. Depends on whether or not they support this bullshit.

The same as Americans with Iraq.

[JuniperLea]

14. I think it depends more on what we have all done to stop the murder

We don't do damn near enough.

[walkon]

6. With their tax money

and a considerable part of ours. Are we responsible since our government supports and encourages Israel in its "self defense"?

BTW: I voted totally responsible. Same for Hizballah and Hamas and all perpetrators of viloence.

[elana i am]

10. I feel the same about Israel as I do about the US...

We are collectively, as entire nations, responsible for electing right wing extremists. Personally I do not feel responsible, but I do feel that I have and obligation to humanity to do my part in affecting the right kind of change in the future.

[Ignoramus]

11. You left out "I don't like to vote"

[Jacobin]

22. Worse than that, they have now increased

Hezbela supporters in Lebanon to 87% of the population, according to the lates poll from CSM.

So they now have another country on their border that is their sworn enemy.

[Hatalles]

24. Don't broadbrush the Israeilis... their RWingers are responsible. nt

[Lars39]

30. To deny that our lives are intertwined is to opt out of humanity.

[barb162]

35. The Lebanese are responsible for allowing Hez to attack Israel

[SaveElmer]

36. No not yet...

As a Democracy they will ultimately be held accountable...but remember Olmert was not elected directly by the people. And there has been no opportunity yet for the Israeli people to absorb everything that has happened, much less do anything about it politically.

[warrens]

38. I'd say those that favored the bombing and missiles are to blame

Just like the FRetards here are to blame for Iraq. I don't think there was much opposition to the Afghanistan war; I was certainly happy to see the Taliban kicked out and Al Qaeda on the run. So were most of the people here. It's not our fault that a certain Commander Bunnypants was so hot to attack Iraq he never finished the job in Afghanistan.