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Are you thinking beyond this conflict to the '06 and '08 elections? NO,

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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 11:09 AM
Original message
Are you thinking beyond this conflict to the '06 and '08 elections? NO,
Edited on Fri Jul-21-06 11:10 AM by in_cog_ni_to
you are NOT. What are you thinking? Do you have any idea what you're doing to the DEMOCRATIC PARTY with your radical, visceral hatred of Israel? Do you know that 78% of American Jews voted for John Kerry? Do you know there are more than 6 MILLION Jews in this country and THEY VOTE??? Do you know the Progressives count for only only 2 million votes? Do you realize that when Jewish voters read about the Progressive stance on Israel....we are going to see a MASS EXODUS from the DEMOCRATIC PARTY? Jewish voters support Israel. Do you REALLY think they think the way you do? Do you? They will leave our party faster than you can say, "Hezbollah is NOT UNjustified in what it's doing" or "Hell yes! I support Hezbollah!" What are you thinking??? What are you doing? Do you REALLY want to LOSE the Jewish vote? Can the Democratic Party AFFORD to lose the Jewish vote?

How do you think a Jewish Democratic, Israel supporter, would feel logging on as a new member? What would they think when they read GD today and threads from the past week? Would you PLEASE think beyond this conflict? Do you REALLY want 4 more FUCKED UP YEARS OF REPUKE RULE??? THINK! Please! You are alienating a HUGE segment of Democratic voters with the VISCERAL hatred of Israel you are posting here.

I also know there are Jewish voters who don't support this latest conflict, but THEY ARE FAR AND FEW BETWEEN. Believe me. They ARE. This Progressive stance on Israel will NOT help in our '06 and '08 elections. Why do you think the Senate and the House SUPPORT Israel?...lobbyists aside.... It's because the American Jews VOTE!

I have been a DU member since the 2000 election was stolen. It was soon thereafter that I found DU and even "I" am rethinking this Progressive movement. I have been a Democrat my entire life and am 51 years old, but I will not associate myself with this anti-Israel movement and there are many, many, many other Democratic Jews who won't either. May I suggest you think beyond this current conflict? Do you care if the Democrats lose the Jewish vote? Does that even matter to you?

Just some food for thought.

Flame away!


http://www.bsos.umd.edu/gvpt/uslaner/uslanerlichbachjewishvotingbehaviorsummary.pdf


<snip>
Our key findings echo the words of the two party chairs. Jews who were most strongly
concerned with the security of Israel were more likely than other Jews to vote for President
George W. Bush, who championed himself as a great friend of Israel. The larger number of Jews
who strongly disliked evangelical Christians voted overwhelmingly for John Kerry.
Overall,
almost 80 percent of Jews voted for Kerry (compared to 46 percent of non-Jews), similar to the
2
share of Jews who voted for Al Gore in 2000. Some Jews who voted for Gore shifted to Bush,
mostly on concerns for Israel. Other Jews who voted for Bush in 2004 shifted to Kerry, largely
because of fear of evangelicals.<snip>




2004 Jewish Vote Figures Revised in Unprecedented Data Analysis

April 12, 2005

Washington, DC: A study performed by polling professionals and academics, released today by The Solomon Project, concludes that the best estimate of the two-party Jewish vote in 2004 -- based on the National Election Pool -- is that 78 percent of American Jews voted for Senator John Kerry, while 22 percent of Jews voted for President Bush. When factoring in other presidential candidates, the study determined that the best estimate of the overall Jewish vote on Election Day shows 77 percent of American Jews voting for Kerry, versus 22 percent for Bush.

The analysis -- drawing from data sets including the National Election Pool and surveys by Jewish organizations, academic institutions, and others -- concludes that the Jewish vote has remained "remarkably stable" over the last three presidential elections, with American Jews voting 28 percent more Democratic than the national average in 1996, 30 percent more Democratic in 2000, and 29 percent more Democratic in 2004.

The report finds that a large majority of American Jews (from 65 to 74 percent) identify as Democrats, while estimates of the percentage of Jews who identify as Republicans range from 11-21 percent. While there have been indications that Bush captured a majority of Orthodox Jewish voters and Russian Jewish voters, the study found that "sample sizes for both of these subgroups were either unavailable or too small in all surveys to make any definitive claims regarding their partisan attachments in 2004." The analysis also notes a correlation between synagogue attendance and voting behavior, with voters who attend synagogue at least weekly voting 47 percent for Bush in one of the data sets examined.

The study additionally drew correlations between voting behavior and the gender and age of American Jews. The report notes that one relatively strong Republican subgroup among Jews includes Jewish men under 30 years of age, who voted 35 percent for Bush in one survey. The report found that the strongest Democratic subgroups included Jewish women who were 60 years of age or older (who voted 90 percent for Kerry) and Jewish women under 30 years of age (who voted 88 percent for Kerry). The analysis also addresses what it termed "a significant gender gap among Jewish voters in November 2004" -- a gap between Jewish men who voted for Kerry 70-28 percent (a 42 percent margin), and Jewish women who voted for Kerry 82-16 percent (a 66 percent margin).<snip>

http://thesolomonproject.org/pop_details.php?id=485



<snip>
As part of the outreach plan, Democrats are putting together a small group of Members to chart a course for the party to get back on track with one of their key voting blocks.

Democrats say both privately and publicly they have little concern that Republicans will be able to draw large numbers of Jewish voters or donors, but they remain worried the GOP will make enough gains to hurt them. By cutting into their support even slightly, Democrats acknowledge, the GOP can further cement its hold on the House majority.

Republicans have in recent months gone to great lengths to show strong support for Israel and made their presence felt at events for and on issues of importance to Jewish Americans.<snip>


http://democraticwhip.house.gov/media/articles.cfm?pressReleaseID=1144


PLEASE! I'm begging you to stop this! We cannot afford to lose another election!

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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. I have no radical, visceral hatred for anyone, but have no
respect for Israel for bombing the crap out of innocent Lebanese civilians.
I am not anti-Israel, but I am anti-war.
I don't see how my feelings will change anyone's mind on what party to support.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Oh really?
Did you read the articles I posted?

ESPECIALLY THIS?

Our key findings echo the words of the two party chairs. Jews who were most strongly
concerned with the security of Israel were more likely than other Jews to vote for President
George W. Bush, who championed himself as a great friend of Israel.
The larger number of Jews
who strongly disliked evangelical Christians voted overwhelmingly for John Kerry.

Denial will not win elections. If the Progressives continue to fight against Israel, Democrats are going to lose...it's as simple as that. If Jewish voters look at the Democratic Party and see Progressives within the party fighting AGAINST Israel, the Democrats are toast.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. So you advocate that I blindly support Israel to get the Jewish vote?
What about my moral compass? I don't think I have tunnel vision, and feel sorry for those that do.
And while dimson may have championed himself as a great friend of Israel, actions speak louder than words. I'm not seeing a whole lot of action on his part; more empty rhetoric from the chimp. I also can't support him, but you probably knew that.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Of course not.
Edited on Fri Jul-21-06 12:26 PM by in_cog_ni_to
I just think this is doing a disservice to the Democratic Party. People need to find a MIDDLE ground here and be a little more diplomatic. I have seen some of the most hateful things said about Israel on this board than I ever have, anywhere. It needs to be tempered with understanding, fairness and diplomacy (like the UN members did). If not, I hate to see the '06 and '08 elections if this continues. The American Jews will not vote for the Progressive stance on Israel...if the Progressives have ANY power within the Democratic Party, the Democrats will lose, again.
Either we want to take back our government and make the changes from within or we want to lose and continue down this path the cabal has us on. Alienating the Jewish vote is cutting off our nose to spite our face.


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flowomo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. diplomacy is not DU's strong suit....
to a large degree, that's inherent in the nature of online boards -- both in terms of who frequents them and rhetorical limits of the medium. Diplomacy requires a subtlety of language that almost demands the flexibility of face-to-face communication -- "posting" is better for short, blunt, one-shot point-making. I see what you are saying -- though you're asking for a fine balance of principles and goals here (exactly the outcome diplomacy aims for) that some simply find difficult to make. All I can say is that if the diplomats all flee the board, who does that leave occupying the field?
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. GREAT question!
All I can say is that if the diplomats all flee the board, who does that leave occupying the field?

The answer isn't good either.:(
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. We agree here; way too little diplomacy, starting at the top.
As for middle ground, I think the fighting factions need to come to some kind of agreement involving middle ground. We're just blowing off steam here, but they need to do some soul searching to stop the madness.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. I agree.
:hi:
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adigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
55. My problem with this whole issue is this:
The mindset that one cannot disagree with what Israel is doing, because to do so would be anti-semitic and not fair to the Israelis, who suffered through the Holocaust.

But that mindset is harmful to both us and Israel. No person, and no country is perfect, but if I cannot speak out when a friend is doing something that I believe is wrong, as I believe Israel is doing right now, how can I speak out when an enemy is doing something wrong? The past tragedies of Israel seem to inoculate them from criticism and in the long run, their actions may be doing more harm to them, and to us also.

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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Who here has said you can't criticize Israel?
I'm talking about the "Hell YES! I support Hezbollah!" posts and "Hezbollah is NOT unjustified in what it is doing" posts. Hezbollah wants to destroy Israel. That support and other horrid comments about Israel, will NOT help shore up the American Jewish vote. I've had the Balfour Declaration thrown in my face, which tells me that poster thinks Israel shouldn't even exist. Just yesterday there was a thread where a poster stated they didn't think Israel SHOULD exist. THAT is what I'm talking about. I'm not saying you can't criticize Israel, they are not perfect. NO country is. No government is. It's that nasty, visceral hatred I am speaking to. IF the Democrats want to hold onto the Jewish vote, I suggest a more "MODERATE" tone on this. That's all.
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adigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #59
67. I have not seen any of that but you are right
if that is being written here; it is vile anti-semitism.

Did you ever stop to think it might be written by trolls, coming here to make us look bad??
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
4. 3 years of attacks from Lebanon
And people here still blame Israel. That's what surprises me. I can understand when Israeli troops shoot at people throwing rocks, but this is entirely different. I just don't understand the kneejerk against Israel. It is the kind of "progressive" reaction that has sent people from the Democratic Party for a long time, not just on Israel either.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. I know.
For some unknown reason they can't see the big picture, the history and the hatred from Hezbollah toward the Jews of Israel. Whatever it is, we cannot afford to alienate this segment of voters and, IMCPO, that's exactly what the Progressive stance will do. If this stance hits the mainstream, we are finished.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. Echoes of Vietnam.
I heard the same claptrap from the likes of Scoop Jackson when the "radical" wing of the Democratic Party refused to back LBJ's little venture into SE Asia. And, again when the "mainstream" Dems nominated Humpty Dumpty. And, I remember "losing the south", because the "liberal" wing of the party backed the Civil Rights movement.

Some things, like the slaughter of civilians, and the invasion of a sovereign country, outweigh "smart" politics.

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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. It's all there in BLACK AND WHITE for you to read
in my OP...ignore it at the Democrat's peril. We lose the Jewish vote, we are SCREWED. Period, end of subject. Dismiss it as claptrap if you must, but don't come back crying about it after we lose in '06 and '08. We HAVE to WIN these elections or the Democratic Party is FINISHED.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. When we lose in '06 and '08 it won't be because of the
"Jewish vote", but it will give you something (someone) to blame it on...
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flowomo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I don't understand your point....
Edited on Fri Jul-21-06 12:38 PM by flowomo
the numbers will tell the story -- either a bloc of voters goes one way or the other, and the sum of those blocs will determine who wins. The OP showed how this bloc has voted in the past and worries they will switch. Whether this group swings the entire election.... well, that depends on how other blocs stand firm or move.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Of course it won't be.
:eyes: Will it be "Moral Values" again? You answered my question. You don't care if the Democrats lose the Jewish vote. That's a HUGE mistake on your part. IMO.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
13. I have an answer to part of your question.
"How do you think a Jewish Democratic, Israel supporter, would feel logging on as a new member?"

About the same as an Arab American. Need any examples?
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I haven't looked into how many Arabs live here and VOTE. Do you know?
How many live here? Do they vote? Do they vote Democratic? Any info on that?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Millions. I know people of Lebanese, Syrian, Iranian descent
Edited on Fri Jul-21-06 12:48 PM by mmonk
myself. In fact, I'm leaving to go to the beach tommorrow and the condo I'm staying in is owned by Lebanese Americans. My thread wasn't an attack on your post. There's nastiness all over the place on these boards concerning the present things going on. I guess they all need to get out their feelings or something. I've been surprised at some of the animousity.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I know we have millions of Arab that live here, but do they vote?
Edited on Fri Jul-21-06 12:52 PM by in_cog_ni_to
More importantly, do they vote Democratic? What percentage of the millions that live here vote Democratic?

I didn't see your post as an attack. It was pretty mild compared to what I've witnessed here lately.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Percentages I don't know.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Arab American Demographics
Arab American Demographics

At least 3.5 million* Americans are of Arab descent. Arab Americans live in all 50 states, but two thirds reside in 10 states; one third of the total live in California, New York, and Michigan. About 94% live in metropolitan areas. Los Angeles, Detroit, New York/NJ, Chicago and Washington, D.C., are the top five metro areas of Arab American concentration.

Lebanese Americans constitute a greater part of the total number of Arab Americans residing in most states, except New Jersey, where Egyptian Americans are the largest Arab group. Americans of Syrian decent make up the majority of Arab Americans in Rhode Island, while the largest Palestinian population is in Illinois, and the Iraqi and Assyrian/Chaldean communities are concentrated in Illinois, Michigan, and California.

Source: http://www.aaiusa.org/arab-americans/22/demographics

According to that site, the majority of Arab Americans are Christian (only 24 percent identify as Muslim).

The site also states that Arab Americans in Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Florida voted 2-1 for John Kerry.

Source: http://aai.bluestatedigital.com/page/file/45b1baa47f3c8e4f16_9svmvyx1e.pdf/2004_AA_Vote_Poll.pdf

Hope that is helpful!
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Good stats, but the OP isn't interested in Arab Americans...
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Think again. Why don't you
take your snarkiness to another thread? That was uncalled for. Where have I ever said I'm not interested in Arab Americans? I ASKED for some info up above and got it, OK?
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. I was talking about the Original Post. There is nothing in it that
mentions in anyway Arab Americans or their voting patterns. Hence, the OP is not interested in Arab Americans. It could have been "snarky", I'll give you that...
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. That's why you should read an entire thread
before posting? Just a thought.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Thank you! They vote Democratic! Yay!
Arab Americans in Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Florida
voted 2 to 1 for Democratic candidate Senator John Kerry.
Overall Democrat Republican Independent
Bush 28.5 9 68.5 15
Kerry 63 86.5 25 71
Nader 2.5 0 3 7.5
US
Born Immigrant
Roman
Catholic Orthodox Muslim
Bush 30 23 33.5 47.5 6
Kerry 62 66.5 55 46.5 83
Nader 2.5 2.5 5 0 3.5
When we asked Arab American voters what kind of progress
they expected on specific issues, we received the following
response:
Iraq Economy
Civil
Liberties
War on Terror/
National
Security
Israel-
Palestine
US Image in
the Arab world
Substantially/
Somewhat Better 29.5 41.5 27 32 22 19
Substantially/
Somewhat Worse 55.5 40 42 43 48.5 60
No Difference 12 15 25.5 15.5 25 15


3.5 million Arabs and twice as many Jews still makes my point an IMPORTANT one.

Thank you for the info. I do appreciate it.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Jewish Vote - 2004
Interesting analysis of the Jewish vote in 2004 here:

http://www.thesolomonproject.org/jewishvote.pdf

About 78% for Kerry to 22% for Bush.

Comment on the above study from Howard Dean:

"This new study confirms that the Democratic Party is more in line with the issues that are important to Jewish Americans because of our commitment to social justice, equality and economic opportunity and a strong U.S.- Israel relationship," said DNC Chairman, Gov. Howard Dean. "Even with the overwhelming support of Jewish Americans, Democrats will continue fight for every vote in the Jewish community."

Source: http://www.democrats.org/a/2005/04/jewish_support.php
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Right. THAT is what I'm saying.
Edited on Fri Jul-21-06 02:11 PM by in_cog_ni_to
They NEED this block of voters. They cannot afford to lose them.

on edit: THIS is important too. Democrats ARE concerned about this issue.


Democrats say both privately and publicly they have little concern that Republicans will be able to draw large numbers of Jewish voters or donors, but they remain worried the GOP will make enough gains to hurt them. By cutting into their support even slightly, Democrats acknowledge, the GOP can further cement its hold on the House majority.

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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. We might as well keep the GOP in power, if dems support war atrocities

To gain votes and office...

This situation with Israel & Lebanon is quickly spiraling out of control.

Israel is responding to the Hezbollah kid-nappings and attacks with a completely disproportionate show of force. They are laying waste to Lebanon. Not only is that against international law, it is liable to escalate the conflict into a full scale regional war and draw recruits to Hezbollah's mission. This situation is a powder keg. Israel is now lining up troops along Lebanon's border for a ground invasion. This very well could turn into WWIII.

Beware of the Bush adminstration to utilize tactics to draw Syria and Iran into the mix. And, don't be shocked when the US attacks Iran in 'retaliatory' measures for Iranian actions against Israel and for its support of Hezbollah. This is the cover they have been waiting for to get their war with Iran.

Watch.

We need cool heads and logic driving our foreign policy in this crisis situation.

Read this article from a Middle Eastern specialist from the New York times before you respond. THINK.

http://www.alternet.org/story/39175/
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. OK then...4 more years!
Do you think the repukes are going to try diplomacy in the ME? Do you really think they will be better with trying to find a solution? I think they have already proven that to be wrong. If you want change in the ME, we need DEMOCRATS to do that. LOOK at what Clinton ALMOST did! The Democrats are our only hope in the ME.

I read that article you posted and do you REALLY believe the REPUBLICANS are going to try a diplomatic solution in the ME? Never. If that's what you're hoping for, the Democrats are the ones we MUST elect. That's not going to happen without the Jewish vote. ALL I'm asking for is to tone down the anti-Israel rhetoric. I'm not asking anyone to compromise their principles. I'm a DEMOCRAT...I would never do that, but the hatred that's spewing at Israel really needs to stop or that Exodus WILL happen. Does the Democratic Party want to take that chance? That would be suicide, IMCPO.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. I'm sorry, maybe I just missed those posts (and glad I did),
but I haven't seen the kind of "hatred" you are talking about. I've seen posts where people were upset by the amount of carnage Israel's military is punishing non-Hezbollah Lebanese with, but that has almost all been "situational", against an open, blatant aggression, not "hatred". Maybe you could give us a link or two to show us the kind of hatred spewing posts you're talking about. I would not agree with any "hatred" posts from any direction.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Of course the anti-Israel
posters NEVER see those posts. They've been deleted...thanks to some DIPLOMATIC mods.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. You see, because I am against Israel's current aggression, I am
Edited on Fri Jul-21-06 01:52 PM by Dhalgren
therefore "anti-Israel". I am against the Bush government, am I therefore anti-American? This is the message that posts like yours send. If you are against a policy or against the current government, you are therefore anti-Israel. Who does this sound like? Oh yeah....
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Fine. Keep ignoring what I say
and lose the '06 and '08 elections and give the repukes 4 more years. Do you think that's going to help your cause? NO, it's not. Democrats are the ONLY ones who will try to make PEACE and I think that's what we all want. NO?
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. So, unwavering, blind support for anything Israel's right-wing
government does is the only way Democrats can win in '06 & '08? OK! GO Likud!
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. That's not what I said,
now is it? Read the OP. These anti-Israel posts need to be tempered with DIPLOMACY and fairness. The American Jews are not going to stand with the Progressive stance on this. THAT is a fact. 78% of American Jews voted for John Kerry. HOWEVER, if they see Israel as an issue in Novemebr and in '08...they will switch parties. Honestly, do you REALLY want another 4 years of this regime? Won't the Democrats be more apt to work toward a PEACEFUL solution to this mess?
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. Look, I don't agree with "hate Israel" posts, either. I have
never made any statements that could be sanely construed as that. But Jewish voters are just as "savvy" as any other group of voters. And they are capable of making decisions based on the best interest of their country as they see it. I don't believe that Jewish voters are going to abandon the party because certain progressives dislike Israel's current government. If they do, then they care more for Israel than they do for their own country - and I don't believe that.

Do you think that the current Israeli government is capable of taking an action or establishing a policy that you believe is wrong? If you answer "yes" to that question, then you have to admit that this is just an occasion where people disagree on whether an action or policy is right or wrong.

Now, anyone who advocates the elimination of Israel as a state is an idiot. But, likewise, anyone who advocates the elimination of Hamas or even Hezbollah is an idiot. The latter two organizations represent a large number of human beings, just as Israel does. The policies and actions of all of these entities can be questioned, opposed, or supported as reasonable persons see fit. The goal of everyone should be the peaceful resolution of this seemingly endless conflict - and that will take diplomacy, trust, and compromise by ALL PARTIES involved.

I am sorry if I was short, "snarky" or abrasive in any of my post. Peace...
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. See, here's a problem.
Hezbollah and Hamas are not countries. They EXIST because they want THE COUNTRY, Israel, to be wiped off the map. Israeli Jews know that and American Jews know that. Unless they stop bombing over the blue line and lay down their arms, there will never be PEACE. The ONLY way to reach that objective, as I see it, is to have a DEMOCRAT in office who actually cares about the situation. The psycho-in-chief IGNORED the ME for years and THIS is the result of that.

If the Progressives should obtain ANY power within the Democratic Party (which is the goal, right?), and if this Progressive stance on Israel hits the mainstream voting populace and American Jews see Israel threatened by the Democratic Party because of that stance...we are goners.

All I want is for the the discussion to be more diplomatic and fair. Otherwise, we could very easily lose the next 2 elections.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. Hamas is the ruling party in the PA and Hezbollah represents
tens of thousands of Lebanese Shiites. In an article by Larry Johnson, published yesterday I think, he says that you can't view Hezbollah as simply a "terrorist" organization. It is not "terrorist", he says. He says it has, does, and probably will use "terrorist" tactics in its asymmetrical conflict with Israel, but that it is actually a real, legitimate social organization that supports and is supported by tens of thousands of people living in southern Lebanon. He said (and I agree) that Hezbollah must be viewed and dealt with in accordance with reality and not some mental construct of the right-wing governments of the US and Israel.

That aside, I completely agree with you that we should be able to have a discussion and debate regarding the various actions and policies of the Israeli government and the Hezbollah without losing our minds and launching metaphorical missiles, here.

Look, it's an agreement - that, at least, is something. :hi:
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
48. If another conservative gets placed on the supreme court were screwed.
Just think about that :shrug:
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Ignoramus Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
22. Peace and Justice is the goal, not getting power for a named group
Right? The democratic party has already officially stated it's opposition to peace and justice, by officially supporting the slaughter of defenseless lebanese poeple, so it's almost a lost cause. But there are still other people who also vote for democrats who do seek peace and justice. For them, presumably the goal is peace and justice. They would not support a democratic party that is not for peace and justice.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
24. I am thinking beyond now&don't have radicalvisceralhatred of Israel
but then I am an individual. Part of many groups of people, able to describe myself in many different ways (political, social, economic, spiritual, color, creed, heritage, age, sex, coffee brand) but I do not consider myself as only a (pick 1 quality). So I work towards getting other individuals to vote in a moral manner. "jewish vote" "women's vote"? people vote as individuals.

And what is this radical visceral hatred of Israel of which you speak? I disagree with some of what they are doing, and agree with some of what they are doing. People are complex and we need to be able to see that and work with that.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. The radical visceral hatred
?? The quotes in my OP were quotes from DU posters. "Hell YES! I support Hezbollah!" was one. "Hezbollah is NOT unjustified in what it's doing." is 2 and many, many more. "Hate! Hate! Hate! That is all Israelis know how to do is HATE." is another. These are just from the top of my head. It happens every day. Now, we even have DUers embracing PAT BUCHANAN!! fercryingoutloud. The biggest racist of my time.

For the Jewish vote, the State of Israel MUST BE taken into account. Or that vote will go Republican. If we want 4 more years of this BULLSHIT, continue on this path.
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Ignoramus Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. There is significant number of pro-hezbollah posts?
I have seen none. Presumably they are being deleted quickly. But what is the point? It doesn't make other people's points equate to those.

Why do you have a peace symbol as your icon if you are for slaughtering innocent people?

As for the topic. If winning is the goal, why not just become a republican, then we could win (as republicans). Of course, the point isn't just to win, it is to have peace and justice.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. OK. We don't want to win in '06 and '08...why are you here then?
Your argument is silly.

I know, anti-Israel posters NEVER see those posts. Funny how that happens. Yes, they have been deleted thanks to some DIPLOMATIC mods.

I've never said I am for slaughtering innocent people. I could turn that around and say the same thing to you, but I won't because "I" am trying to be DIPLOMATIC.
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Ignoramus Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. I don't want terror and death to win in '06 and '08
I'm here to unite with people who are for peace and justice. If the democrats aren't for that, then I'm not for them.

I don't see an argument for how it is silly.

The label "anti-Israel" is flawed. You should recognize the same dynamic from being called anti-American. I can't be against a geographical area. I'm opposed to the actions of the Israeli government, which is not it's people.

I am clearly against slaughtering people, by anyone, the Israeli government or the Hezbollah organization. If you are supporting the actions of the government of Israel, those actions are slaughtering innocents so you are for slaughtering innocents.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Then the DIALOG should be tempered with
Edited on Fri Jul-21-06 02:31 PM by in_cog_ni_to
fairness, understanding for BOTH sides and diplomacy. There is a hatred of Israel here and it's as plane as the nose on my face. Undeniable. There's posters who want the State of Israel to give back ALL the land to the Palestinians. There are posters who have thrown the Balfour Agreement in my face...more times than I can count and by doing THAT they say Israel shouldn't even exist.

All I'm asking is that this discussion be peppered with fairness for BOTH sides. Supporting Hezbollah over Israel is a MAJOR mistake if we wish to win in '06 and '08, but apparently you don't want to win. You prefer 4 more years of this NIGHTMARE we've been living under this regime. Fine. Enjoy your life with NO RIGHTS. Do you think your opinions will matter to the republican party? Think again.
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Ignoramus Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. those aren't the two sides though
If you are addressing those who hate Israeli people, then I agree with you.

But, the two sides to the big argument aren't "pro-Isreal" vs. "pro-Hezbollah". You should remember that dynamic from being called pro-saddam if you opposed the invasion.

The big argument is over whether you favor or oppose pro-Israel (the government) bias. Pro-Israel (the government) bias, is anti-Israeli population, becuase it promotes terror against all people in the area, Israeli or Palestinian or otherwise.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. I am addressing those who want Israel to cease to exist.
There was a thread here yesterday where a poster said that Israel didn't have a right to the land it has and should give it back. IMCPO, that is against BOTH 'the people' and 'the country' and should stop as a discussion here. Israel will always be a nation in the ME.

The Israeli government is against the Israeli people? I don't think so. They are trying to protect the people and I saw a recent poll from Israel where a HUGE majority of the citizens support this latest conflict.

People here HAVE posted they are PRO-HEZBOLLAH though and THAT is a problem. American Jews will NOT accept a political party that supports Hezbollah. That will never happen. We either cool it on the rhetoric and hateful comments about Israel, or we lose the American Jewish vote.
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
47. The rethug plan is too divide us before the election time.
I hope people are smart enough and don't fall for it.

Hugs and peace Incognito your a good man and a good friend.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Hugs back atcha DanCa!
:hug: How are you feeling these days? I'm so sorry the psycho vetoed the Stem Cell bill. He'll pay for that some day! :grr: HOPEFULLY, we can take back the House and Senate in Nov. and change that.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
50. Don't bail out yet.
I think there are a lot of people on here who aren't used to real arguing. I personally came from a family environment where the importance of the subject was determined by the volume at which it was declared. At the end of the day, we are all on the same team. Relax.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. I'm not bailing yet,
but this animosity toward Israel needs to stop if we want to keep that voting block. The Democrats do worry about the repukes taking away the Jewish vote. The party DOES need them.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Despite the trend in recent years towards Jews being right-wing...
...(which I don't get at all, unless it's a kind of Stockholm syndrome or something), most Jews are liberals and Democrats. Debate is a part of the religion and culture. I doubt that there are too many who will vote against their conscience simply because of some heated arguments on DU.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Not just because of a heated argument on DU,
but if the Progressives gain ANY power within the party (which IS their goal...Lamont) and this stance hits the mainstream voter...shit WILL hit the fan. If American Jews see the Democratic PARTY as NOT supporting Israel, their votes are lost. They will vote for the party that supports Israel and wants the country to be safe and able to live PEACE.

I just want the nastiness to stop. Bad things have been said about Israel and that does NOTHING good for the party.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. I think there are a number of things going on here.
And I think it can be cleared up if people keep a few things in mind.

1) This is an extremely passionate issue for a number of people. Some people are simply anti-war and speak out harshly against any acts of aggression. Some people relate to the victims of this conflict in general in a personal manner (are related to displaced Palestinians, are Jewish, whatever), and they can seem prejudiced against the other side. Some are indeed prejudiced against one side or the other. No one should assume people who speak passionately about the issue belong to any of these groups, however I'm guilty of it myself.

2) No one should assume the actions of the state of Israel represent the will of the people of Israel or of all Jews. Likewise, no one should assume that all Muslims or Arabs support the actions of Hezbollah. Neither are true.

3) To many Jews, especially the Zionists, the state of Israel has deep religious meaning. Any attack on Israel is therefore an attack on Jews and Judaism in their mind, and after the Holocaust, that means a fight.

4) To many Arabs in the region, Israel is salt in the wound multiple lost wars, dead and displaced family and the threat the invasion of Western culture and colonalism has caused to their traditional way of life.

5) In America, it's easy to assume government and religion as separate entities (despite the current administration's attempt to change this). This is not automatically the case in other countries, and we should make an effort to distinguish between political groups (Hezbollah, Israel) and religions (Islam, Judaism).

I don't believe you're wrong in voicing this concern, I'm glad for it, especially if it helps people discuss the issue constructively (we do need to keep the conversation open) without alienating any Democrats.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
54. I appreciate your honesty and your passion, Incognito, but I think the
best course is to calm down a bit and consider how we are all being manipulated by the shit-heads in the White House and their war profiteering corporate news monopolies.

I am not Jewish, but I am sympathetic on Jewish issues and on Israel's survival. One of the biggest mistakes that Israel's supporters in the U.S. have made (and I mean all of us, not just Jews) is to equate Israel's safety with large-scale U.S. military support, and an aggressive militaristic stance, to the detriment of diplomacy. Furthered by war profiteers (in both countries, I think), this has led to Israel becoming more and more of a walled in, medieval fortress, bristling with armaments, surrounded by hostile neighbors--a completely untenable position.

But, even worse than this, Israel's leaders have allied themselves with a fascist junta in the U.S., the illegitimately installed Bush regime. A poll I saw here yesterday showed EIGHTY-FOUR PERCENT of Americans opposed to U.S. participation in a widened Mideast war. Opposition to the Iraq War/Occupation is now over 70%.

This, too, is untenable--this immense distance between White House policy and the will of most Americans. BOTH countries are being led down a militaristic path--in the case of the U.S., against the clear and overwhelming will of the majority, and in the case of Israel I suspect something similar (most people want peace; leaders keep fomenting non-peace).

And, quite frankly, I think we are being SET UP to blame Israel, and not the real instigators of this mess, the Bush Cartel and its junta in the White House. Here's how I see it.

An added and critical factor in this current situation is the NeoCon/Bushite "Project for a New American Century" (PNAC), a program long laid out by the Bushites to invade Iraq, Iran and Syria, and gain dominance over all Mideast oil fields. The huge U.S. opposition that has developed to this policy--and also the European, Russian and Chinese opposition--has stymied the Bushites. They cannot proceed with their invasion plans. And what I think has happened is they've gone to PNAC-Plan B: get Israel to do it.

That's easy to do. Israel is led by militarists (who are possibly also driven by war profiteers), and it has a fearful population, quite understandably concerned about Israel's safety and survival. With Israel's leaders creating a wider war, all that has to happen is some "Gulf of Tonkin"-type incident (manufactured or real)--say, a Hezbolla rocket hitting a U.S. plane or ship or other military facility--and we're in. The Bushites don't have to explain or justify in that situation (and this Diebold Congress wouldn't require it, anyway). They can just escalate and escalate, to their hearts' content.

I think that's what's happening. The Bush junta decision-makers and the current Israeli leadership are in cahoots. Neither is acting in the best interests of its own people. But the worst bad actor in this situation--the real instigator--is the Bush junta, not Israel. Without Bush junta support, none of this would be happening (the bombing of Beirut with the threat of invasion of Lebanon, Syria and Iran). The Bush junta holds all the power to fund or not fund both Israeli defense and Israeli aggression. Israel is more of a pawn, a tool--with a willing (and, in my opinion, very wrong-headed) leadership, it's true, but still, the true predators are the Bushites.

One of the things that greatly concerns me about this--Israel acting as a proxy for the Bush junta, and having the Bush junta as its only ally--is that the Bush regime couldn't care less about Israel. Their real buds are the Saudi sultans and the bin Ladens. They would abandon Israel in a minute, if they saw profit in it. They have no heart. They have no loyalty. And they are fascists--indeed, white supremacists, who constantly appeal to their base, that small minority of Americans who love to hate, and who scapegoat gays, brown immigrants, "liberals," blacks, women--whoever the "hated group" of the moment is. That hatred could be turned on Jews once again, if it suited the Bushites to do so. They would do it without a thought. They don't care! They're in it for the MONEY and POWER. They want to become the Lords of the Earth. They are without conscience.

I don't excuse Israel's bombing of Beirut and the slaughter of innocents--nor their oppression of the Palestinians. Both things are war crimes. But I think I DO understand their fear. They have the same fear of anyone living in a "bad" neighborhood--with the desire to surround yourself with barbed wire fences, attack dogs and lots of weaponry. Such measures will never make you safe, on a permanent basis. But it's an understandable impulse. Real safety, and strength, will only come through care and nurturing of a safe, prosperous community, where everyone has a decent life, and hope of betterment. Israel, however, has been in perpetual crisis since its beginning, so it's very difficult for it to take the big steps of diplomacy and generosity needed to create a truly safe neighborhood. Militarism will never get them there. But like a homeowner in a rough neighborhood, they are in a fog of militarism and mutual hostility that is extremely EXPLOITABLE by the profiteers who manufacture fences and weapons, and also by brutal police forces with their own agendas.

The Bush junta has no such understandable motives for ITS war crimes--which have amounted to cold-blooded murder on a massive scale, driven by greed.

Israel is in a very dire situation, partly because its leaders have allied Israel with the Bush fascists, who are the pariahs of the world. And part of Israel's situation is historical--how Israel came into being (including the ill motives of the western powers, which had little to do with a safe haven for Jews, and everything to do with oil)--for which living Israelis are not responsible, any more than living Californians are responsible for the "Gold Rush" slaughters of the Pomo Indians. I know that Israel's Islamic neighbors are still stuck in the past (they tend to hold thousand year old grudges as well--but the recent grudge of the creation of the state of Israel in their midst, and how it was done, is especially inflammatory). And many Israelis are stuck in the past as well--constantly repeating and rehearsing every outrage against them, often in an extremely defensive mode, and not being able to envision a world in which Israel is NOT under siege.

And how does all this relate to the current pending (s)elections in the U.S., and your stated fear that Jews will abandon the Democrats, because George Bush is "better" for Israel?

Well, for one thing, I have a lot more respect for Jewish voters than you do, apparently. I don't think they are so easily fooled. I don't think that average Jewish voters--like other average American voters--buy the Bush junta agenda of creating WW III in the Middle East, for fun and profit. That 84% of Americans opposed to U.S. participation in a widened Mideast war has to include a large component of Jewish Americans.

Behind this fear (of Jewish voters abandoning the Democrats in the November (s)elections), I think is a fear of loss of military funding (as well as political support) for Israel among Americans. But I think, in both cases, you are blaming the wrong parties for that potential loss of support. The Bush junta has done more to discredit U.S. Middle East policy than any Leftist critic of Israel. And Israel itself--its current leadership--has done more to discredit Israel's cause than anybody who is crying foul at the bombing of Beirut.

The association of Israel (as a country, as the birthplace of Judaism, and as a safe haven for post-Holocaust Jews) with Bush junta fascists and with callous war profiteering is the problem, NOT the critics of Bush fascism and war profiteers. And THAT association was created by Israel's leadership and the Bush junta. In other words, Israel's leadership, by pushing U.S./Bushite military engagement in the Middle East, and riding that wagon, and carrying out Bushite scenarios (PNAC-Plan B), has brought discredit upon Israel and has imperiled its support in the U.S. Only by undemocratic means (rigged elections) can that military support be maintained in the U.S., at this point, with over 70% of Americans opposed to the Iraq War, and 84% opposed to wider U.S. Mideast involvement--and also with a $10 trillion deficit from the Bush junta's war and from their tax cuts for the rich.

The situation very much resembles World War ONE, as a matter of fact--at least economically. The rich foment war, and bleed the poor--and reap enormous profits from it all. And revolutions are born of their excesses. I think that both poor Americans and poor Israelis will come to realize what is happening (and poor Arabs as well), and start throwing off the rich fuckers who are bleeding EVERYONE dry.

Militarism is NOT the answer for Israel. Creating a safe neighborhood IS. And the only route to a safe community is diplomacy and generosity.

I would like to remind you and all DUers of the destruction of Iranian democracy in 1954, by the U.S. and Israel, who PREVENTED the Iranians from having a good, open, democratic government and the real, egalitarian prosperity that a democratic government can bring. After fomenting riots and civil chaos, to bring down the democratically elected government, the U.S./Israel then installed the horrible Shah of Iran, who inflicted the Iranian people with 25 years of torture and oppression. In short, WE drove the Iranians into the arms of the present fundamentalist mullahs.

Americans don't tend to remember these events, but the Iranians do. They have no reason to trust us. But think what the Middle East would be like now if we had taken a different course, and lived up to our own ideals, and had permitted Iran to undertake its own own democratization. No one wants to be ruled by mullahs. Young Iranians are chafing under their strictures today. The mullahs could never have won democratic elections. If we had taken the better course, Israel today would have an equal, self-realized, prosperous partner in Iran, for creating and maintaining Mideast peace and insuring Israel's survival. In our greed for oil, we (the U.S.), and Israel in its paranoia, did not allow that to happen. What a colossal mistake it was!

But, as with democracy in America, we must never give up on the vision of peace, democracy and justice that everyone wants (apart from the few greedbags and fascists who are now running everything).

So, here is my thesis: The Bushites are hypocrites, liars and thieves, on a giant scale. Their "support" for Israel is entirely opportunistic. They are USING Israel--and its state of fear for its survival--to accomplish their own greedy ends. Israel itself is in a panic--and suffering very poor leadership, as we are (perhaps also driven by war profiteers). They have been induced to widen the Mideast war, as the price of Bush junta support--as well as it suiting the warmongering faction--and also out of a deep perception of how rickety the Bush junta is, how unreliable and incompetent they are, and how little support they have at home and in the world. Israel's bombing of Beirut seems crazy. This may be why. It IS crazy. It's the crazy PNACers operating upon Israeli fears.

And I do greatly fear this possibility that Israel is being set up as the SCAPEGOAT for the Bushites' failed policies. These policies WILL fail. There is no way that the US/Israel can rule over the entire Middle East as an armed fortress. Both countries will exhaust all their resources doing so, and then it will implode. And when the shit hits the fan for the U.S.--in foreign relations, national security and financial bankruptcy--all traditional scapegoats will be at risk. And the Bushites have a particular penchant for stirring up low intelligence bigotry.

We MUST find the path to a wiser, peace-oriented policy! We MUST! The good people of the United States and the good people of Israel and the good people of all Middle East countries MUST find the way. The current course is headed for major disaster, and could indeed lead to the end of the world (with ONE limited nuclear exchange! --read Carl Sagan's "The Cold and the Dark").

The question to me is not, will Jews abandon the Democrats in support of DISASTROUS Bush junta policy--disastrous for Israel and for everyone else? The question for me is, how will we, the American majority, deal with Rove's pre-written narrative of this election, by which he is weaving hatred of gays and brown immigrants, and the "Mideast crisis" into phony post-election "explanations" of their miraculous "victory" in November?

We will never get wise, new, visionary, peace-oriented policy from the White House until we have TRANSPARENT elections. We will never have peace in the Middle East, and Israel will never be safe, until we have TRANSPARENT elections, and let the wisdom of the people reign supreme. I think the wisdom of the people will produce disarmament in the Middle East, and both big and incremental movements toward dethroning the sultans and the mullahs, and creating healthy democracies. I think the American people--if they were re-empowered and re-enfranchised--would direct our leaders to do this, and would put the matter in the hands of U.N., with strong U.S. backing. And I think that the American people would never abandon Israel. Israel's safety and future depend on American democracy, not on Bush fascism. Bush fascism is the wrong road for us all.

Re: the November (s)elections. Unfortunately, Diebold and ES&S will see to it that we don't have this choice. We will not have the choice of wise, new, visionary, peace-oriented policy, that would be good for Israel, and good for us, and good for all the peoples of the Middle East. Nearly all of our Democratic leaders equate support for Israel with humongous, out of control war spending, which they almost all favor and vote for. Diebold and ES&S will (s)elect them in our primaries, and will (s)elect Bushites (thieves, liars, incompetents) for the majority in Congress.

That's the situation. The only potentially effective protest I can think of--that can be mounted for November--is a massive citizen revolt against the rigged electronic voting machines, by Absentee Ballot voting. If enough people do it (and many are--it's up to 50% in Los Angeles already), the machines will be made obsolete and the system will have to be reformed. (What good will all these shiny, new, election theft machines be, if nobody will vote on them?). AB voting is not safe, but it IS a PROTEST--an effort by the voters to get their vote COUNTED. Spread the word. Bumper sticker: "Bust the Machines--Vote Absentee!"



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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Damn, Peace Patriot, that was a GREAT post.
I know exactly what you're saying about the PNAC agenda of the cabal, but MOST people do not know about PNAC and therefore will not vote with that on their minds. I think that includes the American Jewish voter.

My son's Hebrew teacher is from Israel, one of the sweetest people I know, and she was going to vote for the psycho over Kerry!*&^%$# I asked her why she would do that since the repuke party stands against EVERYTHING Jews represent and embrace and she said because the Psycho (my word) supported Israel and she thought he would do more to protect the country. I told her about PNAC and asked her if she realized that the psychos didn't REALLY care about Israel, they were just USING them to further their Hegemony agenda and she said it didn't matter because Israel was USING them too! Then, I brought up the religious right wacko nut jobs and their Armageddon/End of the World hope and she just laughed and said, she knew about that and it didn't matter because the Jews don't recognize the New Testament and they were wrong. That issue means NOTHING to her. I THINK, in the end, she voted for Kerry, but I'm not sure. She told my husband she did, but that could have just been saving face. Anyway, IF she is representative of the Jewish vote, I still have fears. I need to call her and get her feel on this latest conflict. I know she was PISSED as hell when Olmert won the election. She doesn't like the man AT ALL. It would be interesting to get her input on this issue, I think.

I saw a poll from Israel and a HUGE majority of citizens supported this conflict. I would guess that the same holds true for the American Jews as well. It's not that I don't have faith in them and their ability to see through the psychos bullshit agenda. It's more like they will support Israel if she is in danger and IF the Progressive stance on Israel goes mainstream, that will not bode well for the Democratic Party. I left the evoting issue out of this on purpose to narrow this down to the attitudes of DUers toward Israel. If American Jews feel like the Democrats are against Israel on this, they WILL leave the party. SOME of the things posted on this board during the last week have been horrific and offensive to Jews....and I'M a PROGRESSIVE. If I'm offended, you can bet the "Regular Joe" American Jew will be offended.

I agree we MUST have PEACE. I agree that the parties need to find a path toward that PEACE, but I also see more hope in the DEMOCRATS doing that than the repukes and if we lose the block of Jewish voters, we lose ...absentee ballots or not and THAT is bad for the entire WORLD.

I agree...EVOTING MUST GO!
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. About polls showing Israeli support for invading Lebanon (or whatever
they thought they were supporting--the "current conflict"). The ONLY time that majority American opposition to the Iraq War tipped the other way was during the few weeks of the invasion, with U.S. troops at max risk. It was nearly 60% opposed before the invasion, and went right back up to nearly 60% opposed, after the most intense fighting was over, where it stayed throughout the '04 election. (It's over 70% today.) Clearly, people were thinking that NOT supporting the war imperiled the troops (during that period of max risk). Now, in addition to Israeli troops at risk, the Israelis are in a lot more danger, every day--and now, in the current situation--than Americans ever were (even given 9/11). It's easy to play on a population's fears, especially if the dangers are real and palpable. Israel is a country that has basically been at war since its founding. It exists in a state of war. So I'm sure that poll was greatly influenced by all of this--an active conflict, in the context of unending conflict and fear.

I'll bet they would get a very different answer if they had asked Israelis BEFORE the bombing of Beirut, "Do you think Israel should bomb Beirut?" (I can just hear it--"what, are you a crazy person?"). But militarists don't do that. They don't ask BEFOREHAND. They set up a situation of conflict, and then when something goes wrong (real or manipulated), like the capture of Israeli soldiers, they start bombing innocents in Beirut, and everybody gets scared and supports that action, at least for the moment.

And certainly if you asked Israelis a more general question, "Do you want your government to undertake a major peace initiative?", I'll bet an overwhelming majority of Israelis would say yes. They might argue about the details, but they would want peace, not war.

Didn't all this start, actually, with Hamas capture of one Israeli soldier (and the death of a second)? (Then Hezbollah captured several more?) Something like that. Now, I don't have any particular faith in the purity of the Hamas or Hezbollah leadership. They could well be infiltrated with Bush junta operatives. It would not at all surprise me. (The Bushites are the ones who created and funded Al Qaeda, after all.) Incidents can always be created by war profiteers. (The Bush CIA? Mossad? People working for Manucher Ghorbanifar or other illicit arms dealers? Fomenters of war?) The more I think about it, the more likely I think that's what happened. (--just as with the capture of those four military contractors in Fallujah, with the burning and hanging of their bodies--the excuse to decimate the whole town--an event that was badly needed to fit into the Bush junta's election "victory" scenario).

Now, as I understand it, Hamas was legitimately elected to represent the Palestinians. Some of them may be militaristic and may have committed atrocities--but no more so, I think, than the Irish Republican Army which, I'm sure, at some point, had destroying England as a goal--and 400 years of oppression and hatred as a motivator. So Hamas wants to go legit. Like the IRA, some aspects to their policy genuinely reflect the people they represent. Hatred of Israel may be part of it, but that's not the main grievance. Poverty is. And if someone wanted to discredit their political aspirations, and destroy them, what would they do? They would concoct a provocation of Israel. And if Israel's leaders are all set to BE provoked (are collusive), then they move in and crush Hamas and the Palestinians (which is a policy of the bad leaders anyway).

I'm not saying that the other side's behavior was correct AFTER the incident(s) occurred. Nor do I mean to downplay the constant border hostilities that have been going on (nor the suicide bombings). But what I DON'T really understand is how having Israel crush Hamas and invade southern Lebanon to crush Hezbollah in any way helps Hamas or Hezbollah. Hamas was much better off trying to go legit. And Hezbollah was much better off with their "war of attrition" (lobbying rockets over the border, etc.) And neither Hamas nor Hezbollah has the military strength to defeat Israel in open warfare. Their only hope would be igniting something bigger (say Iran entering the war), but I seriously doubt that Iran wants to take on Israel (and the U.S.). They may bluster, but neither do they have the military forces for a straight-on war. The mullahs will lose and they will be disempowered.

So what's in it for them--for Hamas and Hezbollah? Nothing! Defeat! This is what makes me think it was instigated by agents provocateur--or by a splinter group that the larger groups could not control (to compel them to return the Israeli soldiers). Or perhaps some of them thought, once it happened--the captures--that they could use it for a prisoner exchange, with impunity. (I read somewhere that Israel is holding 9,000 Palestinian prisoners.)

I'm thinking ouside interference, or miscalculation. That makes more sense to me than that they would deliberately provoke a real military confrontation with Israel. I mean, imagine the IRA drawing down the whole British Army into an open battlefield, for conventional war. It's beyond stupid. I suppose people CAN be stupid. And wars have often had stupid causes, and beyond stupid commanders. But still. Given the stakes for the Bush junta, my suspicions fall on them as the true instigators of this horror, and even the direct provocateurs.

As for the Israelis and this opinion poll, what can they do, as the citizens of this tiny, beset nation, with leaders bent on war? They are without recourse, and, like many victims, must identify with their oppressors. I'm sure some are militaristic and self-justifying. But my guess is that most are not. Most are just scared. It wasn't THEIR decision. They have little choice except to back it up.

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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. You are CORRECT, the answer would be a resounding YES!
And certainly if you asked Israelis a more general question, "Do you want your government to undertake a major peace initiative?", I'll bet an overwhelming majority of Israelis would say yes. They might argue about the details, but they would want peace, not war.

At THIS point though, that's not an option until Hezbollah lays down its arms and returns the Israeli soldiers. I was listening to an Israeli on the news yesterday and he said that the Israelis hold their soldiers in VERY HIGH REGARD. To them, the life of ONE soldier equals the lives of 500 citizens. This is a very serious sticking point.

What does Hezbollah have to gain? Well, IF Iran and Syria enter the fight...a LOT. They have also said this fight will never stop until Israel is gone...off the map and the Hezbollah leader has said he has "surprises" for Israel. So, we shall see what they are and then we'll know better. Do we know what Iran has militarily? Do we know everything? I don't know and that scares me.

I agree with you that the psycho and his cabal will turn on Israel when they've used them up. This whole thing is sad beyond words.:(



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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
60. The latest is that Israel will invade Lebanon tonight. PNAC-Plan B in
motion. The Bushites sit back with smiles on their faces. All attention off Iraq and our failing finances. The will of the American people thwarted. "Gulf of Tonkin" coming up. Full scale Mideast war. And heyday for the Bush Oil Cartel.

Israel will be blamed for the blowback. Mark my words. Its leaders certainly bear some responsibility. But the Israeli people and other peoples of the Middle East do not deserve what is coming. They are as helpless as we are, in the hands of war profiteers and maniacs.

Incognito, if it's "progressive" to be against this horror, then all we can do is be "progressive," let the political chips fall where they may. I think our entire planet is at risk. I refuse to sacrifice our planet in order to (s)elect pro-war Democrats. What kind of a choice is that for me--and for other Americans like me--the mainstream who wants peace? But that's the choice you seem to be presenting: Either I support the insane Bushite/PNAC agenda, and Israel's role as the Bush Cartel's proxy, or Jewish voters who also support that insane agenda, will not vote for War Democrats.

That doesn't make sense to me, in any way. Are Jewish voters that stupid? I don't think so. But I think we're ALL being manipulated--as if support for Israel's slaughter of innocents in Lebanon and illegal invasion is the same thing as supporting Israel's right to exist and prosper. They are NOT the same thing! And any Jewish voters who think they ARE the same thing are so off-base I can't held accountable for how they would vote. And what do our votes mean anyway? In the current situation--with Bushite-controlled electronic voting systems, run on TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code--they mean nothing. Give us an honest, transparent vote count, and we'll see how Leftists with a real peace and justice policy create REAL safety and security for the Israeli people--not endless war!

I haven't seen any pro-Hezbollah posts by "progressives," and I wouldn't agree with taking sides. Also, I wonder at your labeling such posts as "progressive," AND at your association of OTHER posters who merely desire peace, with some few aggressive posts that take sides. This stance seems to equate wanting peace for Israel with hating Israel. I can support Israel and STILL, a) not want Israel to have nuclear weapons, b) want Israel to be disarmed (along with the rest of the Middle East); and c) want my government to push hard on Israel for peace, diplomacy, generosity and fairness. In fact, I am much more pro-Israel than the Bushites! I want peace and prosperity for Israel! They want war and the economic drain of militarism for Israel--for their own selfish, gluttonous purposes.

Your OP gives false alternatives--and furthermore ignores the REAL problem in November: non-transparent elections!
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. This is where we're going to have to agree to disagree
because I do not see this as an "illegal invasion." Hezbollah attacked Israel with thousands of rockets, killed 3 soldiers and kidnapped 2 soldiers BEFORE Israel responded this way. What should Israel have done? Ignore the rockets while their citizens live in fear? Why is that any different than what Progressives accuse Israel of doing to the Palestinians? Is it because Israel has a military? If that's the case, she HAD to have a military because Hamas and Hezbollah want to wipe Israel off the map.

As I stated above, I left the evoting issue out of this on purpose to leave the FOCUS of this on the attitudes of pro-Hezbollah posts (since deleted) and posted to ME and PURE anti-Israel posts. THAT does NOTHING to help the Democratic Party. NOTHING at all. EVERYONE wants PEACE, but some here do NOT want Israel to exist. Sad, but true. I have never said people shouldn't criticize Israel, but when people call for the destruction of Israel, I cannot accept that and will not accept that. It's not right and must be stopped.

We ARE all being manipulated for the PNAC agenda, BUT do average Americans know that? I don't think so. I could walk up to 20 people on the street today and ask them about PNAC and they'd look at me with blank stares. Most people do not follow politics like WE do. It's not that Jewish voters are stupid, it's that they support Israel and do not know about PNAC. UNLESS, they are highly involved in politics as we are.

The fact still remains...IF this loud and vociferous.... Hate-filled, anti-Israel noise continues. Plan on losing the American Jewish vote. If they feel Israel is in danger, they will vote repuke. THAT is the point of this thread, not evoting. I KNOW evoting is THE issue, but I just wanted to give people something to think about. Perhaps they will think twice before posting hateful things.

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
65. Point of order - you have absolutely zero idea what people are thinking...
...unless they TELL you.

As such, your post begins with a false premise, and runs with many more.

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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Of course. n/t
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