If Israel really wants to save the 2 captured soldiers, then why are they

[jsamuel]

bombing all of the places they are most likely to be?

This isn't accusatory, just maybe bad thought process??? I mean, they have said they want to blow up Hizbollah's buildings and isn't that exactly where those 2 soldiers are likely to be.

It just doesn't seem to make sense.

[pitohui]

1. you never played poker have you?

the kidnapped soldiers are gone dude, they're prob. dead or good as dead

the point is to make it too costly for the other side to use this tactic again -- to save many other soldiers in the future

[jsamuel]

3. I know there are plunty of other reasons to do this, but I just don't want

to hear it is because of the 2 soldiers when it isn't.

[pitohui]

4. ok it isn't because of 2 soldiers it's because of 200 soldiers in future

happy now?

most people can't comprehend the future or the science of hypotheticals, better to put it in words of one syllable and explain it in terms of the soldiers lost today

the mathematician/poker player will understand how you have to take action to protect your future position but since this mathematician/poker playr is a tiny minority of the population we needn't cater to her

as dan quayle said, half of the people are below average

if sometimes we have to explain our actions to the stupid people, well, that's life in the big city, isn't it?

[jsamuel]

6. ok, but now that we are talking about the future

we could debate on how to best save those 200 soldiers. I might argue that NOT invading Lebanon would be more likely to save them. I understand that many people would disagree with this, but I would point to Iraq and say that it was of the same rational. The idea that blowing Iraq up was going to stop terrorism was just plain wrong. I think the same applies to Israel/Lebanon.

But the point is that now we can ACTUALLY have a debate on the real issue, not some side (make you feel hard) issue.

[lvx35]

7. They are alive and in good health according to the captors.

Israel wants a big ol' regional conflict. They are sick of the same shit and basically want something to change, but I think they are goin' about it all wrong. :(

[Behind the Aegis]

8. That's what the ones said that kidnapped the 17yo...

...he was found with a bullet in the head and it was determined he was killed within hours of being taken...despite Israel being told by the terrorists, that he was still alive.

[lvx35]

20. Oh really? Wow.

I didn't know that at all, its news to me. I thought they were okay...Do you by chance have a link? I want to read about it, and I'm trying to find it on google news without much luck...:(

[Behind the Aegis]

21. A little confusion...

Just so we are on the same page...a few weeks ago, the terrorist Hamas and another group went into Israel kidnapped one soldier and killed two more (outside of Gaza). The following day (may have been two), an unknown terrorist group claimed to have kidnapped a 17yo Israeli in the West Bank. It was the teenager that was killed. Then, 6 days ago, Hizb'allah kidnapped 2 soldiers across the Israeli border and killed three more. The condition of the soldiers is unknown, other than what they tell the media. No member of the International Red Cross has seen them.

[lvx35]

22. Oh thanks.

Not a good record then eh? But we sure can hope that those two are okay, which is better than nothing, eh? :(

[Behind the Aegis]

23. We can hope...

...however, the last time Israel negotiated with Hizb'allah to return Lebanese prisoners, they got over 200 live people, Israel got the corpses of three soldiers and a recently kidnapped business man.

[lvx35]

24. yep.

ergo Israel getting sick of it all, and big attacks. I get it, but I think its wrong. I've seen plenty of dead kids, even on TV, as a result of the Israeli bombings, and these will turn moderates against Israel in addition to showing true moral problems with the attacks. What I wish would happen is a process where Israel would become a center for liberal tolerant muslims, an interfaith state where the attacks, when they occur would also be against muslims, and provide fodder for moderate muslims to turn against terrorist groups like hizb'allah.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. Muslim and Arab groups are turning against Hizb'allah!

There are some articles in I/P that show the Arab and Muslim world are not at all happy with Hizb'allah for this incursion into Israel.

While the Israeli response may have been heavy-handed, there is a reason for their targets. As for the dead children and other civilians, that blame also lies at the feet of the cowardly Hizb'allah. They hide among the skirts of women and the carriages of children.

[lvx35]

26. I just hope they keep playing that up.

Good news. I hope Israel keeps playing those cards. I dream of Israel doing things like building even greater universities, and offering access to the best and brightest muslims, so it becomes a place of interfaith excellence in achievement - because the truth is that there will never fully be peace in the area until muslims make a choice to no longer tolerate terroist groups, which seems to endlessly be the problem; governments of nearby countries don't "actively support" these groups, but they tolerate them and they don't wipe them out because they fear they don't have the power...But if just enough muslims can cross the line into seeing a brighter future in cooperation, muslim leaders can come into power that can take care of these terrorists once and for all, wqhich is what it will take to bring peace, no amount of conquest will work.

[lvx35]

27. One other thing before I sign out.

It is a tactic of asymmetrical warfare to hide in "the skirts of women and carriages of children". If a small group lacks popular support against a larger state, than a useful tactic is to commit small offensive attacks, with the hope of a disproportionate response, targeting people outside of their organization. The people targeted, knowing that groups A and B are at war, and having been attacked by group B, will automatically side with group A, as a human instinct. As a result, a reckless retaliation against a terrorist group will expand the support of the terrorist group, something that has been used against Israel so many times its not even funny. Let us pray Israel realizes this!!!

:(

[niyad]

2. or why not use their version of special forces?

[pitohui]

5. because this really happened, ain't a bruce willis movie EOM

/

[niyad]

9. that's a smart-ass answer to a serious question--you may be wedded

to your little scenario about future risks, poker, and mathmatics too lofty for mere mortals to understand, but common sense tells us that one uses the least amount of force and the most efficient way of dealing with a situation. this is exactly the sort of thing special forces are FOR--unless, of course, the object IS to obliterate civilians who have absolutely nothing to do with the conflict.

and quite frankly, where is the proof that these two soldiers even exist, or that this actually happened? if I remember, it was brought out that no information was given on them, unlike a soldier captured previously.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. .

:tinfoilhat: and :crazy:

[niyad]

11. did I just miss that information? quite frankly, I don't trust the israel

government any more than the bunch currently befouling the oval office, or any other government, to tell the truth about anything.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. and Hizb'allah? Trust them?

[niyad]

14. you didn't answer my question, so I am assuming that the answer is NO.

and don't even try to turn it around and imply something that I did not say. I don't trust any group, governmental, or otherwise, period.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. you didn't see the information come out about the soldiers?

It took awhile to discern who was taken and who was killed, but it was pretty clear that two were taken. Even Hizb'allah admits to it. So you assume wrong.

I didn't turn shit around! The reason I asked is because it wasn't just Israel that released that information!

[pitohui]

17. well you really think they never existed?

i don't think you can't understand math, i think you won't understand it, if your fallback is nothing ever happened to begin with?

[niyad]

19. I understand math just fine, and I also understand a whole lot more about

governments which cannot be trusted.

[Sherman A1]

12. It's a punitive expedition

When your forces are held (kidnapped or held prisoner your choice) by the other side. You really don't know if they will be alright. So this is a punitive effort to 1). go ahead and do what Israel really wanted to do anyway and 2). Make a future plan of this nature to expensive for the other guy. This isn't tit-for-tat, it's an well orchestrated use of excessive force to show just what will happen in the future.

[pitohui]

18. egg-zactly

it MUST be too expensive for this to keep happening or pretty soon you're colombia and if you've got loose change in your pocket, you're being kidnapped

kidnapping MUST exact a very high price to stamp it out in decent society

[Skidmore]

28. Yes, and * and Condi's slow response on the diplomatic front is to

allow Israel to inflict the maximum damage possible on Hezbollah and Hamas without America having to lose a single soldier in that fight. They see this as a war on terra event. They will drag their feet while many people die on both sides until as much damage has been done as possible. Strategic punishment, and this gives Israel an excuse to try to unseat the elected Hamas government by claiming a defensive action rather than just an all out unilateral assault on the Palestinian government.

[Name removed]

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