Israel to create buffer zone

[dipsydoodle]

Israel says it plans to create a buffer zone in southern Lebanon to stop rocket attacks from the militant group.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/latest/200607180835/118686af

Presumably this will be the Mediterranean Sea and extend as far as Spain.

[boston bean]

1. I don't think that will make things any better......

but who am i to say?

[guinivere]

23. You got that right.

Nothing will change.

[Redstone]

2. Oh, I guess they're supposed to just let those people keep

shooting rockets at them, eh?

Redstone

[bryant69]

4. Yes.

Because, obviously, any opposition to anything Israel wishes to do means that we want Israel to do nothing. It's so clear.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Redstone]

27. Your sarcasm is as lame as your supposition.

Redstone

[Minnesota Libra]

3. I doubt very much if.................

....BOTH SIDES stay on their side of the buffer zone though. It would certainly be nice if they find their side and stay there.

[AnOhioan]

5. A 'buffer zone" which will at some point......

be "settled" by right wing Israeli citizens. Unless the Israeli gov't stops the illegal settlements and deals honestly with the situation, nothing will change.

And before I get flamed, Hamas and Hezbollah also need to stop the attacks and realize that Israel is not going away.

Both sides are culpable, both sides need to adjust their longterm goals. Without those efforts the region will continue to smolder and occasionally break out in open flame.

More innocents will die. The cycle will continue.

[dipsydoodle]

6. That's why I said the Med

right wing Israeli citizens might experience some difficulty building on that.

[Poll_Blind]

7. Your conjecture is actually not that unlikely...

From the Kadima Party platform, emphasis mine:

• The Jewish people have a national and historic right to the Land of Israel in its entirety.
• The overall objective – a sovereign Jewish and democratic state that is a secure national home for the Jewish people – is the maintenance of a solid Jewish majority within the State of Israel.
• The balance between allowing Jews to fulfill their historic right to live anywhere in the Land of Israel and maintaining the continued existence of Israel as the national Jewish home necessitates a choice that requires territorial compromise.
• Conceding parts of the Land of Israel is not an ideological concession but a realization of the ideology guaranteeing the existence of the Jewish and democratic state in the Land of Israel.
• Determination of the State of Israel’s permanent borders within a peace agreement will ensure the country’s national and security interests.

  What this means is that the Government of Israel (GOI) considers all of biblical Israel to be Israel, not its current borders. Also, according to the above, the Palestinians are granted, magnanimously, access to Israeli land. Gaza, the West Bank- those are Israeli lands according to the statement above. Should the Arab minority ever grow to threaten the Jewish majority in Israel it is arguable that under the above ideology, transfer of some portion of the Arabs in Israel would take place to Gaza or the West Bank. Also under the ideology defined above if Arabs were to no-longer exist as a sizable percentage in Israel then Israel would be free to reapportion the land they have set aside as concessions.

  Reference this with the map contained in this Biblical Map of Israel and these notes which expand the map significantly. Also worth viewing is this episode of Nightline where Rabbi Meir Kahane debates Ehud Olmert covering the subject of transfer, among other things.

PB

[cali]

12. If we're going to take that as gospel

that Israel wants to take over all of the historical land of Israel, than shouldn't we take this at face value as well?

From the Hamas Covenant:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm


Not to mention that there's just tons about Palestine having no room for the Jews, lots more about killing Jews. It's a real pip of a document.

Sauce. Goose. Gander.

[Poll_Blind]

15. This is the Kadima platform of Kadima from the official Kadima website.n/t

PB

[cali]

17. Are you actually denying that what I posted is codified within

the official Hamas Covenant?

[Poll_Blind]

24. What you posted is not a reflection of the politics of Hamas today.

From Ha'Aretz, emphasis mine:

Hamas published its official platform for the upcoming Palestinian elections, which proved to be more moderate than either its 1988 charter or public statements made by its leaders throughout the ensuing years.

Diplomatically, the platform does not differ substantially from that of Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah faction, calling for the establishment of a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital - although it does not specify that such a state should be confined to the West Bank and Gaza.

The document also makes no mention of the principle that has been Hamas' raison d'etre since its founding: the destruction of Israel and establishment of a Palestinian state on all territory west of the Jordan River in its place.
--snip--

  The document I referenced from Kadima was written in 2005/6 produced by Tzipi Livni, herself. The document you offered up was from 1988. Which is likely to be a more accurate reflection of current views? For you to imply that a document from so long ago is an accurate reflection of Hamas as a political party, today, indicates ignorance (willful or otherwise) on the matter.

PB

[cali]

37. Sorry, you can't have that out

If it's not a reflection of who they are today, all they have to do is remove it, and the rest of the hate that laced throughout the document.

[Poll_Blind]

39. Could you clarify what you just said? "you can't have that out"?

What does that mean? Did you read the excerpt from Ha'Aretz? You were pointing to an old and out-of-date document and claiming, dubiously, that it reflected Hamas as a political party today. Which is just plain contrary to the facts as the excerpted Ha'Aretz article's analysis supports. What are you still not getting here?

PB

[Redstone]

16. Sauce, goose, gander, and checkmate.

Well said. Damn well.

Redstone

[k_jerome]

18. thank you. nt.

[AlamoDemoc]

8. you know what AnOhioan....

...its people like you who actually flame the topic here at DU. I am referring to folks like you who talk the talk and do not walk the walk. If you think you will be flamed by speaking of your mind, then why bother speaking of your mind, ha? Why post?

[AnOhioan]

9. If your post made any sense....I would reply more in depth n/t

[AlamoDemoc]

10. thank you...that's speaking of your mind, of course

...just don't post an opinion on a subject and worry about negative response by speaking of your mind. That's all!

[AnOhioan]

11. Point taken n/t

[Redstone]

14. Well, they WERE dismantling the settlements. And they got out of

both Lebanon and Gaza.

Fat lot of good it did them.

Redstone

[AnOhioan]

21. The settlements in the West Bank are still there.

You sound like you want peace only on Israeli terms. It will never happen. Until the Israeli gov't realizes that fact they will face resistance from armed groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah.

Peace will not occur on terrorist terms either.

No-one wins as long as hardliners on both sides keep gaining power.

[Redstone]

22. They were dismantling the fucking settlements. Yes, there are some

left, but they were working on getting rid of them as well.

And they DID leave Lebanon. And they DID leave Gaza.

As I said, fat lot of good it did them.

Redstone

[AnOhioan]

25. You have your opinion

If if it is out in fuckin left field.

See? Others can swear too!

Try having a discussion like a reasonable person. You might like it. Have a good night.

[Redstone]

26. Oh, I see. It's just my opinion that the Israelis pulled out of Lebanon.

And just, I suppose, my imagination that they pulled out of Gaza.

And I guess those newspaper stories about them closing the West Bank settlements were just Big Media Lies.

See? I didn't even say "fuck" once.

Happy?

Redstone

[AnOhioan]

31. I am thrilled.

The point is, and always was, that the Israeli gov't (and many on this board) expect that simple withdrawal from Gaza and Lebanon should make everyone happy. That assumes of course, that Gaza/West Bank could become a viable state. Well, the wall that Israel is building short of puts the kibosh on that idea.

Withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza is merely the first step that must be taken on Israel's part. Israel, in lieu of not offering the "right of return" (which is understandable) should offer financial compensation to the Palestinians for the homes, business' and farms that they have lost.

That same financial assistance will make the appeal of Hamas and Hezbollah much less of an issue.

Hamas and Hezbollah must be disarmed...that will not happen by targeting Gazan or Lebanese infrastructure. A "very targeted" action by the Lebanese Army, assisted by UN forces may handle Hezbollah. Hamas? Honestly I do not know except to empower Fatah to get rid of the corruption and strengthen the moderate Palestinian leadership.

It will not be easy or quick, but there is no other way to achieve peace in the mideast.

[Redstone]

32. And meanwhile, the rockets keep coming.

Funny how nobody here seems to have said "Hamas and Hezbollah must be disarmed" until just about now?

Why was nobody saying that when the rockets were flying, and the Israelis refrained from retaliating?

Redstone

[AnOhioan]

33. Do not generalize....

There have been plenty here at DU that have always wanted Hamas and Hezbollah disarmed...as well as wanting Israel to show some leadership and not go overboard with retaliation.

[Redstone]

34. Funny, I never saw much of that. some, now but an awful lot of

people saying that the Israelis should just sit and take it.

And also quite a few people bringing up that old "The US Government does what the JEWS want it to do, because of that powerful JEWISH lobby" crap.

I NEVER thought I'd see that at DU, and it's sickening.

Redstone

[AnOhioan]

35. While I am no fan of AIPAC

I agree....those types of comments are out of line. The US gov't is controlled by neocons...no-one else.

[Redstone]

36. Aha. I was sure we'd find some common ground. See, I'm not such a

loose cannon after all.

I just stand for what I feel is right, as do you. And we've found a point of agreement on something that is definitely right. And I like it when that happens.

Redstone

[JackNewtown]

13. If Hezbollah doesn't disarm Israel should create a buffer zone nm

[cali]

20. What, what, what?

could you elaborate on that please.

[rockymountaindem]

28. I think he/she meant to say

"If Hezbollah doesn't disarm, Israel should create a buffer zone"

I know I've made punctuation errors before, but they can sure be problematic.

[DELUSIONAL]

19. No matter how much land Israel "takes", "steals" or is "given"

all of that land in part of other culture's traditions of "ownership" --

Graveyards are a sort of history of ownership --

so the question might be -- which side/group/culture/ has more ancestors buried in the land?

Which culture has stayed tended the land, built the land up to survive on the land?


And as these questions rage -- and the discussion goes on I am forced to remember America's history.

Land was taken from the Native inhabitants -- the Indians for the Europeans.

Eventually a DEMOCRATIC President removed Indians living east of the Mississippi River to what is now Oklahoma.

TRAIL OF TEARS.

Andrew Jackson tried to solve the Indian problem by clearing land. Eventually the Europeans dominated the "inferior" -- using genocide -- corralling the Indians into reservations and then starving them.

Many of us are survivors of the American Holocaust -- and those of us of Cherokee heritage have no love for Andrew Jackson. The story of what he did is part of my family's oral history -- nothing kind is said about Andrew Jackson OR the Democratic Party. I am one of the few in my family who has come over to "the dark side" and regularly vote democratic.

A CIA analyst makes this observation -- and it applies to many world situations:

A nation that mandates the primacy of one ethnicity or religion over all others will eventually become psychologically dysfunctional. Narcissistically obsessed with its own image, it must strive to maintain its racial superiority at all costs and will inevitably come to view any resistance to this imagined superiority as an existential threat. Indeed, any other people automatically becomes an existential threat simply by virtue of its own existence. As it seeks to protect itself against phantom threats, the racist state becomes increasingly paranoid, its society closed and insular, intellectually limited. Setbacks enrage it; humiliations madden it. The state lashes out in a crazed effort, lacking any sense of proportion, to reassure itself of its strength.

http://www.counterpunch.com/

[Cvortex_10]

29. I see a lot of critiques, but wheres the answers?

Exactly how does one solve this situation ye ole couch generals?

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. Completely ridiculous

Never happen.

[MadHound]

38. Great, Israel is going to seize more land that doesn't belong to them

And then wonder why people are pissed at them.

Sorry, but a damn buffer zone isn't going to help matters one bit. When you have rockets and missles that have a range of tens to hundred of kilometers, a buffer zone simply won't make a difference.

The only thing such a zone will do is create more long lasting resentment as Israel seizes and occupies more land that isn't theirs.