The whole "defending ourselves" argument.....gimme a break.

[Buddyblazon]

When a country uses the "we have a right to defend ourselves"...I just roll my eyes.

It certainly is one thing when your country is being invaded. But I'm talking about countries lobbing crap back and forth over their borders. Ya know...the stuff that leads to full blown war.

And you want to know WHY I roll my eyes when I hear that tired old rhetoric (as if I actually need to explain it)? Because when both sides have been doing it for so long, EVERY attack is a counter-attack in the eyes of the inflicter.

So, if both countries must "defend itself" after each attack...IT DOESN'T END! DUH! It's just a spiral descending as far down as people in the streets bashing each others skulls in with remnants of destroyed buildings.




But hey...sure...you have the right to "defend yourself".:eyes:

[aquart]

1. Okay, so they DON'T have that right.

And the missiles keep coming. YOUR PLAN WOULD BE...........?

Die?

[Buddyblazon]

2. How about some dialogue.

I understand being the first to stop is tough. But since they don't have missiles that can single out instigaters, continuing to hurl them only creates more enemies.

I never said it would be easy, but certainly the current route is NOT working. It hasn't created peace in the past. And I'm pretty sure it won't in the future. Do you agree?

[Cary]

7. Israel is still there, isn't it?

It's kind of hard to justify peace talks when the last time out they made concessions that led to the ousting of Ehud Barak, the election of Ariel Sharon, and an intifada.

[Buddyblazon]

8. Okay...so if it's hard to justify peace talks...

then what? They should just keep blowing each other up?

[Cary]

10. I didn't say I had the answer.

I'm just pointing out historical fact.

Either way, buddy, it takes two. You aren't going to have peace until the "Palestinians" really and truly want peace.

So far they're showing that they want war. It's not like the Israelis have any real choice, other than to die of course.

[ThomCat]

17. It's not that the Palistinians down't want peace,

but that they haven't had any. Israel is the big killer. Israel runs the policies and practices that are strangling and killing Palistinians. It is Israel that has never attempted to negotiate peace.

[in_cog_ni_to]

40. Oh fercryingoutloud. Israel pulled out of Gaza, out of Lebanon,

philanthropists raised 14 MILLION freakin' dollars to buy the Iraeli's greenhouses that would have employed HUNDREDS of Palestinians and FED THE PALESTINIANS GOOD HEALTHY FOOD....what did they CHOOSE TO DO WITH THOSE GREENHOUSES??? DESTROY THEM! Stop with the sob stories and how baaaad Israel is. That's just crap. Israel has put up with a THOUSANDS bombs being lobbed at them from Hezbollah and Hamas on a DAILY basis.

Israel has never attempted to negotiate Peace?

Israel Seeks to Reach Final Settlement with the Palestinians

At Camp David in July, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offers Arafat 92 percent of the West Bank, all of Gaza, Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem, Palestinian statehood and the dismantling of most settlements, but he rejects this and the Palestinians launch violence. In December, Barak agrees to negotiate a Clinton proposal for an Israeli withdrawal from 95 per-cent of the West Bank. Again, Arafat rejects the proposal.

Arafat...THE MAN WHO STOLE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS FROM HIS PEOPLE WHILE CLAIMING HE LOVED THEM and while they starved and suffered at HIS HAND.

Please stop revising history. Just because Arafat is dead doesn't mean we don't remember what the man did or DIDN'T DO.

[Joe Fields]

55. Yes. Israel has given up a lot, while getting nothing in return,

save for more attacks. They tried appeasement, gainst their wishes, at the behest of the United States. What did that accomplish? Hamas now officially the ruling palestinian authority, as well as Hezbollah taking over the southern half of Lebanon, with ten thousand rockets pointed at Israel.

[Cary]

58. Israelis would have to be stupid to not truly desire real peace.

They are not stupid. They are actually entirely reasonable people, if you know any of them.

[Joe Fields]

65. Absolutely, and they do desire peace. I cannot fathom why

some posters say that they don't want peace.

[ThomCat]

77. Maybe because they keep

killing hundreds of people at a time, destroying homes and communities, annexing farmland and water access, and doing everything they can to wipe out the palestinians while claiming to be interested in peace?

Interest in peace is still a minority opinion in Israel.

[The Magistrate]

87. If It Were True, Sir

That Israel was doing everything it could "to wipe out the Palestinians", they would long since have been gone. The statement is a rediculous exercise in hyperbole, that simply cannot be taken as a serious expression, based on knowledge and reflection, but rather a species of automatic noise, discriminate as a car alarm in a high wind..

[ThomCat]

88. On the contrary

they've been remarkably successful. They've reduced the Palestinians to one of the poorest and most desperate groups of people on earth who only survive because of international pressure and charity.

Do you have anything to contribute or are you the one just making noise?

[The Magistrate]

101. Your Phrase, Sir, Was 'Wiping Out"

That phrase has the generally accepted meaning, applied to a body of persons, of killing a quantity of them that, if it falls short of all them, still comes pretty near to it. A death rate of roughly one thousand per year of war in a population of roughly four millions, amounting to about one quarter of a tenth of a percent, such as has marked the period of the Second Infatada, hardly meets the requirement. There is a considerable difference between being mostly dead, and being mostly poor and desperate, and if you do not believe me, you may ask the next corpse you encounter to explain it to you. My advice would be to listen very carefully....

"The dead know only it is better to be alive."

[ThomCat]

So,

Kicking an entire people off their land, moving many of them to refugee camps, taking away their every means of supporting themselves, reducing them to disease and starvation and homelessness isn't a campaign to wipe them out?

There is an active campaign to deny the Palestinians any right to be Palestinians. They might exist as vagabonds, refugees and the oppressed, but they would be wiped out as a people.

I think you are being deliberately a bit selective with your syntax. If you have an opinion please state it, but nit-picking syntax doesn't contribute.

[Joe Fields]

130. If you choose to use terror tactics to make a point....

you really cannot expect to be treated civilly.

[ThomCat]

137. That hasn't hurt Israel terribly much.

They use terror tactics daily.

[Joe Fields]

129. OMG, Magistrate! You do have a way with words.

[in_cog_ni_to]

96. I don't suppose the daily bombing of Israel

by Hamas has anything to do with this? Why leave out the most important details? Hamas is lobbing missiles into Israel EVERY day. HUNDREDS of them since the pullout. That's OK? Israel pulled out of Gaza. Remember?

[ThomCat]

98. I agree that the bombing is terrorism

but it's terrorism on both sides. Israel hasn't washed it's hands of Gaza. They've been doing their own bombings. Israel is not innocent, and both sides claim to be defending themselves.

[in_cog_ni_to]

114. How can Israel wash its hands of Gaza when her people are being bombed

every day? Hamas has turned Sederot into a ghost town because of all the bombs fired at the city. Good grief. If Hamas would stop, Israel would leave.

[ThomCat]

116. I think you have it backwards.

If Israel would stop bombing, bulldozing and trying to dominate land outside of it's borders then Hamas would lose all support among Palestinians. They wouldn't be able to recruit or get funding, and they'd disappear pretty quickly.

[in_cog_ni_to]

119. No. I don't have it backwards.

Israel pulled out of Gaza. Hamas continued it's bombing. Israel has to protect her citizens.

[robinlynne]

150. Israel did stop.

That did not do the trick.

again Israel did stop.

[cigsandcoffee]

179. This is an incredible statement...

Rarely have I read anything so incredibly inaccurate. You describe the Palestinian people as though they were residents of Vermont choosing a degree of political affiliation.

What you are talking about is a very poor and primitive cluster of people, who will resist or cross Hamas at their own peril. If the intense Islamist and Jew-hating brainwashing didn't take affect on a resident who lives under them, then they'd better keep quiet about it. Terrorist neighborhood organizations police their own people brutally, exampled by the "kneecappings" carried out by the IRA in Northern Ireland (not to mention outright murders). And the Palestinians are not nearly so well educated as the Irish in the North, as seen to by Hamas for the sake of vigilance and exploitation.

The Palestinian militants own the heart and soul of the people from birth until death, and will continue to follow where they lead. That is what Israel is up against, and no amount of good natured dialogue is going to change this circumstance in the slightest.

If only peace were as simple as you make it out to be with that incredible post. If only.

[defendandprotect]

139. Peace-seeking Rabin was assassinated...

And, Kofi rightly accused Israel of waging a full out war against the Palestinians which is rather obvious since Israel is armed, even with nuclear weapons, and Palestine is limited to terrorism.

I think there are a majority of Israelis who want peace, but they're not part of right-wing government. Their peace-seeking government -- Rabin -- was taken from them by murder.

This new outbreak has been going on since Bush took office and, surely, with his "blessing."

[ThomCat]

75. I know many. And they are no less violent than any other

people. They are more nationalistic than most, and therefore more likely to approve of attrocities in the name of nationalism. Mix religion into this mix and almost anything can be accepted and justified.

Stupidity has nothing to do with it. Are you implying that the Palestinians are stupid, given that you blame them for everything?

[daydreamer]

161. You are right. Arabs and Jews were cousins. Different tribes

of the same ancestor maybe.

[sendero]

85. Most Americans are reasonable...

... but you wouldn't know it from the dispshit leaders they elect.

[DemonFighterLives]

99. Please leave us out

I didn't vote for the chimp.
:rofl:
:P

[daydreamer]

162. Most of any people

are dumb politically, doesn't matter if they are Americans, Jews, Arabs and Asians.

[jonnyblitz]

63. what did Israel give up? land that they stole to begin with?

please. :eyes:

[Cary]

66. Stole?

The lands were grazing pastures for nomads.

[ThomCat]

78. Just like all the land the US stole from Native Americans

was just undeveloped land. Geez. They weren't even using it. We were perfectly justified in wiping people out and driving them off the land.
:eyes:

(that is sarcasm for those who can't tell.)

[in_cog_ni_to]

95. OK. I say we give the Native Americans THEIR LAND back.

How's that for a solution? That's what people want Israel to do.

[ThomCat]

100. Actually, I agree.

A lot of land in the US Should be given back. After all, we violated treaties to get it.

And, if the Native American Nations can join together in a loose federation of some kind, give them permanent representation. Give them their own senators and members of congress. Either that, or solitify their independence from the us and their sovereinty.

[in_cog_ni_to]

108. EXCELLENT! We agree on ONE thing.

:woohoo:

[tkadmin]

148. Somebody has a good idea!

"...solitify their independence from the us and their
sovereinty."  

On first pass it looks workable.  Give them a bunch of money,
agree over what land they will get, maybe guarantee loans that
their government will get, they might even make a LOT of money
from casinos!  They could have a smokin' deal.  But then
Congress would get involved.

[DemonFighterLives]

102. That's a good one

I hope you meant it as a joke.

[in_cog_ni_to]

72. And Hezbollah members are a part of the Lebanese GOVERNMENT.

HEY! It worked for Hamas, why not Hezbollah too?

[ThomCat]

73. My sources are primarily Noam Chomsky's books, and various

other books that discuss the middle east, and discussions online. I know, people either love him or hate him. My SO grew up in Israel and has some strong things to say about Chomsky, but say what you will, his stuff is well documented and factual.

I also went to college with guys who had just come out of the Israeli military, and they had a lot of first-hand stories to tell. Gruesome stuff.

My understanding is that the Israeli offers all had poison pills in them. That the Israel kept holding out for a better deal. That after the Intifada started they tried to backtrack and get back to one of Arafat's offers that they had repeatedly rejected.

It sounds like you're the one who's who's rewriting history. In your version Isreal is a saintly country that does everything they can to help those poor Palestinians who are just terribly ungrateful and refuse to be peaceful.

Be careful. Your prejudices are showing.

[in_cog_ni_to]

91. Oh, of course, the Peace Treaty fell through because of Israel!

STUPID ME. It was all Israel's fault. Why didn't I know that? Everything's Israel's fault. Sheesh. Arafat refused to sign it, but it's Israel's fault. Ah ha! I think I have it now.

I never said Israel is completely innocent. I've NEVER said that, but neither are the Palestinians who elected a known terrorist group, the Hamas, to lead them. A terrorist group that has vowed, as its MISSION STATEMENT, to "never stop until the blood of every JEWISH man, woman and child flows through the streets and into the sea." Israel is expected to embrace THAT? I don't think so.

And just for the record...I thought Sharon was baaaaad for Israel, OK? I don't think everything they do is fine, but at least I'm adult enough to admit that. Some here think everything Israel is EVIL and everything Palestinian is GOOD. That just isn't the way it is. Hamas and Hezbollah ARE bad and will never be embraced by Israel..period. They both have adopted the same MISSION STATEMENT I posted above.

Am I predjudice toward Israel? Absolutely. She's the only Democracy in the ME surrounded by nations who hate her and want to destroy her. Why would anyone support Hezbollah and Hamas? That's beyond reason. Choose to support 2 groups who vow to destroy a Democratic nation. Now that makes a lot of sense. And don't tell me people here don't support Hamas and Hezbollah, because they are here. I had one poster actually admit it to me...which most here would never do, even though they do support them.

[ThomCat]

105. You and I are probably fairly close together in

actual opinions. But when things bet out of hand everyone has a fall-back possition. When the chips fall, I take sides against the biggest, most violent bully. I take sides against the best funded campaign of violence with the money and propaganda behind it. Unfortunately, that's Israel.

The Palestinians are responsible for attrocities too, but not on Israel's scale. The Palestinians really are fighting for survival, unlike Israel which has hundreds of billions of US dollars and one of the biggest militaries on earth.

I'm not sure what your fall-back position is, but it's got you defending Israel's attrocities. For the record, the Palestinians are a democracy too. They elected their leaders, but somehow that keeps getting overlooks when we don't like who they elected.

[in_cog_ni_to]

113. Well, yes.

when they elect a terrorist group that tends to make people overlook them and not take them serously in the fight for "PEACE.". Now, why does Israel have such a powerful military? Could it be because since her existance she has had to do nothing but fight wars that SHE DID NOT START? Could it be because No One in the ME wants her to exist? When you have GROUPS of people saying "we will not stop until the blood of every Jewish man, woman and child flows through the streets and into the sea", you tend to NEED to protect yourself and take those threats seriously. NO?

Remember, never again. It will NEVER happen again, as much as some people want it to.

[ThomCat]

118. Safety and security are not all-purpose excuses.

There is no justification for much of what Israel had done and continues to do.

This is exactly what the neocons are trying to duplicate here. Create a sense that someone is trying to wipe us off the face of the earth and then use that as permission to create any attrocity, commit any crime.

Every nation needs to be kept within legal limits. This is true especially of the nations with strong militaries.

[in_cog_ni_to]

124. Excuse me, but I read that Mission Statement put out by Hamas

and Hezbollah YEARS ago. It's not a figment of Israel's imagination. Has the fighting ever stopped? NO. Will Hamas and Hezbollah recognize Israel as a state? NO. It will never stop until Hamas and Hezbollah stop.

Never again and Israel shal exist whether some people want her to or not.

So, you expect Israel to accept the Hezbollah bombings, Hamas bombings, murders of its citizens, kidnapping of its soldiers, blowing people up on buses, blowing people up in discos, and blowing people up at markets and DO NOTHING? Preposterous.

Hezbollah is responsible for this latest escalation...NOT Israel. Lay the blame where it belongs.

[ThomCat]

127. A 20:1 kill ration does not lie.

An eye for an eye is an evil policy, but it hasn't been nearly evil enough for Israel. They take 20x more.

You can keep saying, over and over again, that Israel is innocent but that doesn't make it true. The facts prove that Israel is a terrorist nation. The kill ration, the path of that rediculous wall, the random bombing of civilian targets, the targetting bombing of civilian infrastruction, the hoarding of water access, the bulldozing of homes and communities, etc. Can you address any of these things that Israel really has done? What is the justification for these things?

Nobody here denies Israel's right to exist, so that's a red herring. How about addressing the actual damage that's being done and who's doing it?

[in_cog_ni_to]

131. Well, keep up your hopes, Thom..Iran and Syria may get involved yet

and then your wish will come true...MORE Israelis will die. Are you praying? Keep praying for the death of more Israelis so we can even up this score...OK?

Israel reacts to terrorist attacks. Remember the buses? The bombing in the market? The bombing of the disco? The bombing of the restaurant? Where did those people come from? GAZA. Whether you like it or not, Israel is NOT going to just sit by and let Hamas and Hezbollah blow up its citizens, OK? You're just going to have to deal with that fact.

No one is denying Israel's right to exist? But, there's an awful lot of people on this board who fault her for defending herself and think she DOESN'T have a right to exist. I've had the Balfour Declaration thrown in my face more times than I can count.

It's not Israel's fault that Hamas and Hezbollah use their citizens to hide behind. It's been their modus operandi forever. They hide their weapons in highly populated areas and they shoot their rockets from homes in highly populated neighborhoods. Then they can use the dead citizens as their propaganda. Place the blame on THEM...Hamas and Hezbollah. If they didn't hide in Gaza or Lebanon, Israel wouldn't have to go in there to find them and destroy their weapons. It's that simple.

[ThomCat]

135. Now you're just being insulting.

I am not praying for anyone's death. I sincerely wish that the fighting would stop, but that won't happen when Israel is continuing their practices I listed earlier. If the attacks on Israel stopped today Israel would still be stealing water, stealing land, bulldozing homes and doing a whole host of other evil things.

You, on the other hand, are an apologist for Israeli attrocities. No amount of mass murder, starvation and bombing is too much for you as long as it's Israel doing it.

How is bulldozing civilian homes reacting to terrorism?
How is targetting civilians with military attacks reacting to terrorism?
How is stealing water access reacting to terrorism?
How is building a wall in such a way as to take the best farmland reacting to terrorism?

[in_cog_ni_to]

140. How is bulldozing civilian homes reacting to terrorism?

The terrorists hid there. As usual. They ALWAYS hide behind innocent civilians.


How is targetting civilians with military attacks reacting to terrorism?
The terrorists HIDE behind innocent families....their weapons and themselves.

How is stealing water access reacting to terrorism?
I have no clue because I haven't read about it, but will.

The wall? To keep terrorists out of Israel. It's that simple.

The Palestinians were left with beautiful, stocked Greenhouses FULL of food with an irrigation system and they chose to destroy them. OK? The best farmland in whose opinion? The wall is to keep terrorists OUT of Israel. Like it or not, it's there. Maybe there will be a day when Hamas and Hezbollah cease to exist and the wall can tumble. We'll have to see.

Israel is NOT the problem here. Hamas and Hezbollah ARE the problem. When they're gone...there will be PEACE.

[ThomCat]

156. Again, you're naive

They bulldozed houses belonging to doctors. That was destruction of infrastructure, not a response to terrorism. The bulldozed houses at random. That was intimidation and power, not a response to terrorism. Do you rememeber the death of Rachel Corrie? That was murder, not a response to terrorism.

Targetting civilians has nothing to do with where terrorists are hiding. They don't even bother to have an investigation. They don't don't care about where anyone is hiding, they simply lob missiles and watch where they come down. Or are you imagining that there is a terrorist hypothetically hiding behind every skirt? That would be quite the boogieman you're scared of.

If the wall was really to keep terrorists out they would build it along the border, not curving and arcing into valuable land. The wall has as much an economic purpose as anything else. It claims the best farmland, access to water, and most valuable real estate.

The Palestinians know damned well that you can't feed a nation with a couple of greenhouses, especially when those greenhouses are token payments for stolen farms.

Israel IS a major part of the problem. "When they're gone...there will be PEACE." That's an evil thing to say because that's an invitation to genocide. You can't tell the difference between a civilian and a terrorist. Worse, you don't care to even try. If the Israeli military thinks like you then a lot more innocent people are going to die.

[in_cog_ni_to]

169. Oh please. Buy the propaganda

why don't you? If you don't believe Hamas and Hezbollah hide in civilian homes, then there's no hope for you. They have ALWAYS done that and always will. They use the civilian deaths as their propaganda pieces, They play it over and over and over on their propaganda networks to work up the people to get behind their evil agenda....to destroy Israel.

Those Greenhouses fed the Israelis in Gaza and the Israelis didn't give them to them. Americans raised the $14 million to buy them TO HELP THE PALESTINIANS. That's the thanks they get? That's the thanks EVERYONE gets when they try to help the Palestinians. Destroy the Greenhouses and bomb Israel after they pull out of Gaza. What grateful things to do!

When HAMAS AND HEZBOLLAH ARE GONE, THERE WILL BE PEACE and for you to support terrorists that want to destroy Israel is just disgusting and sick.

[defendandprotect]

144. Israel isn't acting without US approval . . .

And, could we ask: Is Israel doing anything that is upsetting Bush and the neo-cons?

[DemonFighterLives]

106. Sorry to break in here

but I have a silly question. Why do many people refer to Israel as her/she/etc? I never understood that way of speaking.

If she were my mother or sister, I would....

[ThomCat]

109. Nations are traditionally referred to as Feminine.

I don't know why, but it's almost always the case.

[in_cog_ni_to]

115. Countries are "she"

that's why.

[DemonFighterLives]

122. It sure seems to come out more in Israel's case

:shrug:

[in_cog_ni_to]

125. I use "she" when I speak of countries. n/t

[greguganus]

159. No offense here but...

...I remember when I was young and my dad's car broke down and he kept calling it a "she". I asked him why was the car a "she" and he said, "Son, anything that gives you trouble should be called a female"!!
:scared:

[tkadmin]

141. Israel has never attempted to negotiate peace

I beg to disagree.  I think Israel has tried "Land for
Peace" three times now.  
You are certainly welcome to dislike their policies, but lets
stick to the facts.  Besides, there are already plenty of
reasons to be against their politics.

[AnOhioan]

22. Nice try....

The Israelis are just as culpable of prolonging the conflict. Realizing that neither side is innocent is the first step towards peace.

[Cary]

43. You miss the point.

"Culpable" or not, you will never have peace until both sides want peace. The Israelis have demonstrated that they want peace. The "Palestinians" have not.

In fact the "Palestinians" haven't demonstrated that they want peace with their fellow Arabs.

There are 1 million Arab-Israeli citizens and more than a dozen Arab-Israeli citizens even have seats in the Knesset. These Arabs and Jews live together in peace, for the most part. If the Arab-Israeli citizens can live with the Jews why can't the other "Palestinians"?

The answer is that they don't want to.

[AnOhioan]

49. No sir, YOU miss the point.

To assert that the Palestinians do not want piece is just plain wrong.

If you want to say the Hamas membership does not want a just peace, I would agree with you.

If you want to say the Israeli gov't does not want a just peace I will again agree with you.

There are Israeli citizens and Palestinian citizens who would love a just peace, where both peoples can exist side by side and live out their lives.

The powers that be, in both Israel and Palestine are the impediments to peace.

You label all Palestinians with the same brush. Others label the Israeli's. Labeling is a huge mistake, one I see far too often.

[Cary]

52. I feel sorry for innocent "Palestinians" who what peace, but. . .

there aren't very many of them.

You can't realistically expect the Israelis to give the "Palestinians" anything more than they were offered at Camp David. It isn't going to happen. There is no reason for it to happen and in fact I seriously doubt that the "Palestinians" will ever get that kind of deal again. Those are the facts of life.

Arafat knew all too well what he was doing. He wasn't up to the challenge. Barak was, and he ended up losing as a result.

[AnOhioan]

69. I think there are more than you give credit for

But that is neither here nor there.

Please read the following;

Israel's leaders continue to suffer from the delusion they can defeat violent Palestinian resistance to that occupation without offering the Palestinians a credible, non-violent political path to statehood, promised in various international agreements.

Following the precedent set by Ariel Sharon with his unilateral disengagement from Gaza, his successor as Israel's Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, believes that if Israel dodges the bullet of a bilateral peace negotiation with the Palestinians - something it has successfully done so far by claiming 'there is no Palestinian partner for peace' - it will be able to create unilaterally a rump Palestinian state that will leave in Israeli hands large chunks of Palestinian territory and make a mockery of Palestinian national aspirations.

Despite the massive imbalance of forces, the Palestinians will never abide such an outcome. In 1988 and in 1993, as part of the Oslo agreement, they recognised Israel's legitimacy in 78 per cent of what used to be the Palestine mandate, leaving themselves with 22 per cent, less than half the territory assigned to them by the United Nations in 1947. No Palestinian leader, now or in the future, will agree to further Israeli land grabs to accommodate settlements established in violation of international agreements and international law, whose illegality even the utterly one-sided Bush administration has had to concede. On this territorial issue, as on that of Israel's efforts to deny Palestinians the right to site the capital of their prospective state in East Jerusalem, there is no daylight between any of the Palestinian parties. President Mahmoud Abbas would be no less unyielding on these issues in a negotiation with Israel than would Hamas.

The entire article can be found at http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,,1821605,00.html

Both the Palestinian and Israeli leadership need to realize that there will be no peace until both sides can negotiate freely and honestly. Both parties have failed in the past at this task and current indications are that both parties have not learned a thing.

[Cary]

Hamas is now in charge, and they don't recognize Israel.

How do you have peace with a party that doesn't recognize your right to exist?

You know, there was a "Palestinian" state. It was called "Jordan". What happened to the "Palestinians" there? Why?

Israel surely isn't perfect, but they haven't been offered any peace by the "Palestinians". It's too bad about the innocent ones. Their leaders have betrayed them--not that they ever truly cared in the first place.

[AnOhioan]

97. And the same can be said for innocent Israeli citizens.

Bringing up Jordan is a pointless. The article refers to the Oslo Accords. As far as Hamas denying Israel's right to exist, that is true, Hamas leadership has not recognized Israel. So what? Half the world refuses to recognize Taiwan as being independent of China. Taiwan exists despite the denial. So does Israel.


Question....does the Israeli leadership deny the Palestinians right to exist as a viable state? Or do they accept that existence only as a non-viable "partial state"?


These are questions that need to be addressed by all involved. As I have stated before, neither side seems all that much interested in a peaceful resolution of the conflict that has been going on for years, sometimes low level, some high. In the end, it is the same conflict with different players at the controls.

No one can ever declare "victory". There needs to be a negotiated and ho0nest peace where both sides give some and take some.


Edit for spelling

[Joe Fields]

57. Why do you say the Israeli government doesn't want peace?

I cannot fathom why you would say that.

[AnOhioan]

60. Olmert needs to show his has the "stuff" to lead......

much like our own boy king.

[Joe Fields]

67. Baloney!

[AnOhioan]

71. You are entitled to your opinion

[in_cog_ni_to]

76. LOL...that is just a ridiculous statement.

Olmert doesn't need to show his "stuff" to anyone. THAT is not what this is all about. This all happened because Hezbollah wanted a war with Israel They got their war.

[ThomCat]

89. Of course he does.

Politicians in Israel are under more pressure to be "tough on defense" than even our politicians here in the US, and we've all seen how that distorts politics here.

[ThomCat]

80. Because they clearly do not.

I cannot fathom why you would say they do.

[in_cog_ni_to]

74. That's a CONTRADICTION.

from your post:
To assert that the Palestinians do not want piece is just plain wrong.

If you want to say the Hamas membership does not want a just peace, I would agree with you.

The Palestinian people ELECTED Hamas to lead them. They do NOT want peace and electing Hamas proves it.

[The Magistrate]

94. There Is More To That Election, Ma'am, Than Meets The Eye

First, the Hamas majority in Parliament does not reflect a mjority vote for Hamas representation by Arab Palestinians. In fact, a sizeable majority of Arab Palestinians voted against Hamas. However, their vote was split between two competing factions of the Fatah, so that Hamas had the largest indicidual total in most districts, and hence carried the seat. Further, an at large slate not tied to any district was in play, and again, the fact that Hamas received more votes than either Fatah faction gave it an exaggerated strength here. The result is that a party with much less than a majority of the votes cast has a super-majority in the Parliament. Had the Fatah not split into rival bodies, there is no question Hamas would have gaied no more than a handful of seats.

Second, a vote for Hamas was not necessarily, for many individuals casting same, a vote for war. The Fatah has a well justified reputation for venality, and the Hamas leadership and functionaries have the name of honest men where money, and excessive solicitude for cousins and such, is concerned. Some portion of the vote for Hamas was a species of protest vote in the cause of clean government, and many who cast such votes were probably quite surprised by the actual outcome of the election. There were also certainly people who felt that, if encumbered with a share of government authority, Hamas would moderate its course somewhat, as responsibility often moves people to do. That this jpe failed to materialize does not mean it was an unreasonable thing for some people to anticipate happening.

[AnOhioan]

103. I can just as easily say the Israeli's elected Olmert....

Which means they do not want peace. See how ridiculous such a statement is?

A majority of Israeli and Palestinian citizens do want peace. Their leadership has failed them both.

[in_cog_ni_to]

107. But that would be silly.

and is a ridiculous analogy because Olmert is not a terrorist group. Hamas is. As long as Hamas bombards Israel on a daily basis with their Qassam rockets, there will never be peace. That's all there is to it. Now, who doesn't want peace? Israel or Hamas who insisted on a pullout from Gaza, got what they wanted, but insist on bombing Israel non-stop since the pullout. Who doesn't want peace?

[ThomCat]

110. "not a terrorist group"

But Israel is.

[in_cog_ni_to]

117. No it's not. Israel reacts to terrorism

foisted upon her by Hamas and Hezbollah and any other country that gets a hair up their ass and tries to attack her.

[ThomCat]

121. That may have been true 50 years ago.

But Israel has escallated into one of the biggest terrorist nations on earth. Their 20:1 kill ration alone makes them a terrorist nation.

You have yet to commont upon, or even acknowledge, that kill ratio, the bulldozing, the wall, the confiscating water access, the indiscriminate killing of civilians, the laws that officially make Palestinians second class on land they've lived on for centuries, etc.

No amount of wishfull thinking will make Israel innocent. They are a terrorist nation.

[in_cog_ni_to]

126. Terrorist Nation? Funny. A Democratic Country surrounded by countries

who want to destroy her and Israel's a terrorist nation. OK...now I know where you're coming from. You support the people who call for the destruction of Israel. All Israel is doing is protecting herself from invading countries and terrorist groups.

I think the suffering of the Palestinians is sad. I've said so many times. However, has the terrorism toward Israel ever stopped? NO. It won't because they intend to kill every Jewish man, woman and child. Do you even wince at that thought?

[ThomCat]

128. No. I do not support calls to destroy Israel.

And that's a very cheap shot.

If Israel stayed within her borders and stopped committing terrorist acts I wouldn't call Israel a terrorist nation.

By the way, the Palestinians also elected their leaders. Or did you forget that?

You keep saying that Palestinians want to kill every Jewish man, woman and child. I know that anti-semitism is real, and it needs to be fought. But Israel's tactics escallate the problem instead of solving it. That much should be obvious to everyone by now. Until Israel collectively grows up and takes responsibility for her actions there cannot be any peace.

Blaming the Palestinians for everything, over and over again despite everything Israel keeps doing is very much like what we're doing in Iraq. We keep killing civilians until the insurgents go away, but we keep creating more insurgents.

[in_cog_ni_to]

133. I did not forget the Palestinian election.

How could I? They elected a terrorist group that HATES Israel.

So, you don't support Hezbollah and Hamas?

Look, This is all simple. Hezbollah and Hamas lay down their arms and recognize Israel as a state and this crap could end tomorrow. Easy, peasy.

[ThomCat]

136. You're naive

Israel would continue to steal farmland and water access. Israel would continue to disenfranchise Palestinians and keep them second class citizens. Israel would continue to keep the Palestinians poor and starving with no access to pretty much anything, because that prevents the Palestinians from becoming a viable political force.

Israel has most of the power to stop the violence, but very little incentive.

[in_cog_ni_to]

143. Naive, I'm NOT.

Arafat stole BILLIONS of dollars that kept his people in poverty. Israel didn't do that. He greedily kept the money for himself instead of giving aid to the people he claimed to LOVE. That is not Israel's fault.

I love how you can see into the future. That's quite a Magic 8 Ball you have there. You know what Israel's planning. Interesting.

[ThomCat]

155. I don't need to see the future.

I see the present well enough, and it's clear that most of Israel's actions have nothing to do with responding to attacks. You're still refusing to address anything that Israel actually does. You're living in a fantasy world where things you don't like can just be ignored.

[in_cog_ni_to]

167. Let me refresh your memory. It seems you forgot what you wrote.

Israel would continue to steal farmland and water access. Israel would continue to disenfranchise Palestinians and keep them second class citizens. Israel would continue to keep the Palestinians poor and starving with no access to pretty much anything, because that prevents the Palestinians from becoming a viable political force.


Looks to me like you're using your Magic 8 Ball.

I live in a world of reality based on facts. I see and know what that country has lived through... dished out by Hamas and Hezbollah. Join reality, you might like it.

[ThomCat]

176. I don't need the reminder.

But thanks anyway.

Insisting that you're right doesn't make it so. Amd that's all you've got. Israel has been condemned internationally more than any country except the US in the past 50 years. Israel only looks like some shining palace of purity and righeousness if you ignore a whole lot of reality.

No, you're living in a one-sided world where Israel can do no wrong, where those other people you dehumanize are entirely evil and can never do anything right, and where only your view can be right. Sucks to be you. On this issue, at least, you might as well be a neo-con. What's it like to be on the same side as Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, et. al? I can't imagine it's a nice place to find yourself.

[in_cog_ni_to]

177. Sucks to be you.

One who defends Hezbollah and Hamas. How's it feel to support people who have called for the blood of every Jewish man, woman and child to flow through the streets into the sea?

I don't follow people here at DU like a sheep does. You know...sheeple? It's the new Progressive fad to hate Israel. Sorry, but I have a mind and think for myself. I supported Israel long before the repukes took up the Israeli cause so take your little Rush/Hannity insult and stick it where your head seems to be. You should feel at home there since it's where you've been all day. On this issue I might as well be a neo-con?:rofl: You are a sad little man.

[Bonobo]

168. You are a very poor debater. That is all. Buh-bye.

[ThomCat]

175. LOL

I'm doing pretty well. You're contributing nothing. Buh-bye.

[AnOhioan]

112. Easy answer

Hamas does not want peace, Hezbollah does not want peace. And neither does the current Israeli gov't...being as infiltrated with wingnuts as is the US gov't.

[ThomCat]

79. When did Israel demonstrate this?

Israel has not demonstrated anything of the kind.

[hfojvt]

38. there are always alternatives

In a Star Trek episode Spock is commanding a shuttle expedition that crashed on a planet and lost power. The planet was inhabited by primitive giants that kill one of the crew who made the mistake of wearing a red shirt. Most of the crew wants to counter-attack, but Spock thinks he can show the giants that his crew has superior force, without killing anybody. It does not work and the crew suffers several more attacks before finally taking off, but it loses alot of power in take off, so it cannot maintain a stable orbit and will have to land back on the planet. The Enterprise is being called away, as Spock knows, to deliver food in response to a famine. Instead of landing, Spock does the illogical thing of jettisoning and igniting all the reserve fuel. Then the orbit starts to decay and the shuttle starts to burn up. It becomes obvious that they are all going to die, and Spock says so. Bones says:
"A while back you said there are always alternatives."
Spock thinks and replies: "It seems I was mistaken"
Bones mutters "At least I lived long enough to hear that."

Israel certainly had a choice. How did this start? With a kidnapped Israeli? Although I seem to remember Israeli raids and attacks before that kidnapping. But hey, at least the kidnap victim was a soldier. So there is no alternative to what Israel did? - blow up a power plant, bomb an airport and roads, blockade a whole country? Why not negotiate for release? Why not accept one or two deaths, instead of causing hundreds more, even dozens more on the Israeli side? Now rockets are being fired and people want to say Israel has no choice, but for every attack they make, that causes more rockets to be fired. So answering force with force and hate with hate does not seem like an effective way to PUT OUT A FIRE. This reminds me more of the glowing entity that wanted to start a war between the Klingons and the Federation because it fed off of hate. Only in the real world, there are extremist 'leaders' who gain power and influence if violence escalates.
http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=101850

[Cary]

50. They believe they will have to deal with Hezbollah at some point. . .

in time. Unfortunately they are right.

While you smugly talk of fictions like Spock and Klingons and the federation, from thousands of miles away, they contemplate their survival somewhere in a bomb shelter.

[kiahzero]

186. Fiction is never useful to demonstrate a point or concept.

That's why it so rarely has themes which apply outside of the fictional narrative.

[Skidmore]

12. If my recollection is correct, the intifada was the direct result

of Sharon waltzing himself into a holy site and deliberately starting a new round of crap. Hardly a peacemaker there. Israel choses war also. Takes two to tango and the problem is that the lead keeps trading off in this dance to the death.

[aquart]

28. Since they knew Sharon was being inflammatory, why did they bite?

I do understand that the Palestinians are under no obligation to be smarter or more peaceful or anything else, but why do you only blame the Jews?

BTW, earlier you asked me if I thought the Palestinians were human. I just realized that you seem to believe it's either/or.......both sides can't be human. Really?

[ThomCat]

30. If someone insults your mother and spits in her face

would you ignore that insult simply because you know it was deliberate? Or would the fact that it was deliberate make you even more angry?

If somehow you would have remained calm, would the rest of your family done the same?

[The Magistrate]

104. The Result Of Giving In To That Provocation, Sir

Has not been of any benefit to the people of Arab Palestine. You cannot seriously maintain that their circumstances or their prospects today are better than they were the day before Sharon took his provocative walk....

[ThomCat]

111. I don't claim that they are better off. Far from it.

I'm simply stating how this situation keeps escallating. People respond to grave insults. The vast majority of people simply do not ignore deliberate slights and insults.

[Skidmore]

33. Both sides certainly are human, but I read your post to mean that

you saw them as less than human. Some form of vermin to be eradicated from the earth. It cuts both ways. I believe that both sides need to get serious about peace and let go of the myths of the past. I don't think either side is entitled to the land there beyond those families who were displaced when Jews from Europe and other nations were relocated there to create the state of Israel. It amazes me that Palestinians have been expected to meekly give their homes and land away to absorb this group of people then.

[Cary]

48. What "Palestinians" gave "their homes to absorb this group"?

Very few, if any.

[tkadmin]

149. Who owns what land?

If I recall they threw a party for the winners of WWII. 
Amidst a lot of drinking and other debauchery those folks
decided who got what in the ME.  Israel (the land) was given
something that today encompasses current Israel.  That leaves
one remaining question:  What land did the bigwigs give to the
Palestinians?  Jordan.  The king of some other gang in Jordan
said, "Ya know what?  We don't like the Palestinians
either.  This lead to the guy who won the political fight in
Jordan pushing the Palestinians into the far southwest, as
close to Israel as they could get.  You want to see some nasty
refugee camps, search for some pictures of those.    

[w4rma]

174. I'm sorry but justifying this BS because a right-wing government would

lose power if they promoted peace is not a good reason to quit the peace process and destroy another country's infrastructure along with civilians on the pretense of "defending theirselves" from a private, underground army who has probably taken zero casualties from the bombs.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

47. Dialogue?

How many times have the israelis tried? Muslims want nothing less than the complete deletion of Israel, and nothing the Israelis have tried to do has been enough.
Duckie

[ThomCat]

3. How about negotiating a peace,

without simultaneously stealing land,
stealing water resources,
bulldozing civilian homes,
building walls around people's communities in their own land,
blocking access to businesses and hospitals,
and blocking humanitarian efforts?

That would be a much better plan. Don't you think?

[Cary]

14. Tell me. . .

Why didn't the Egyptians want Gaza back? Why didn't Jordan want the West Bank?

Israel has won all of the wars, and yet the "Palestinians" want to act like they didn't lose. Who are the "Palestinians" anyway? What have they done to show that they're legitimate?

You do know that Egypt build a wall on their border with Gaza. Why don't you hear about that?

[ThomCat]

16. You're ignoring that Egypt

supports the idea of Palistinian right to self-rule. I had not heard they refused to take back the Gaza Strip, or even that Israel ever seriously offered, but my response would be "Of course they don't want to become the new occupier."

As for your question about the Palistinians, what do you expect them to do when they've been kicked out of their homes, starved, deprived to resources, had their best farm land confiscated, their water resources taken from them, and even their refugee camps get terrorized and bulldozed?

How much could you or anyone else accomplish under those conditions? What more do people need to do to show their legitimacy other than survive?

[cali]

42. Yikes.

You post constantly in these threads but you never back up an argument with reputable sources.

You did know, didn't you that from 1948 until 1967, Egypt and Jordan occupied Gaza and the West Bank respectively. Why wasn't a state formed for the Palestinians during that nearly 2 decade long period. Had it been, the Palestinians would probably have had a thriving state with Jerusalem as its capital.

I'm not exonerating Israel from anything here. They have committed a shit load of bad acts in their own right. I am trying to point out that there's more than one legitimate perspective. In fact, familiarizing yourself with as many of them as possible, is a real help in gaining some understanding of the situation.

[Cary]

46. I constantly post what threads?

WTF are you talking about?

I was making the point that in 1967 neither Egypt nor Jordan wanted Gaza or the West Bank back. They had their reasons. It has to do with the nature of the people who resided there--people who couldn't even manage to have their own garbage collected.

If these "Palestinians" wanted a state they probably would have had one. But that's just an if, and, or a but.

[cali]

53. Sorry, I posted to the wrong person

but now that i have you, I think putting Palestinians in quotes is less than helpful.

[Cary]

56. I don't believe that they are a nationality.

Their nationality is "Arab". Otherwise they are a wholy made-up people.

Sorry. That's the way I see it. Sometimes the truth just isn't convenient.

[cali]

59. That's pretty disgusting

A made up people? They're real, and they suffer and bleed and yearn for self-determination like any other people. By denying them they're identity you dehumanize them.

[Cary]

70. I didn't say they were a made up people.

I said that they aren't a nationality. Their nationality is Arab.

Why do you think being an Arab is disgusting?

[ThomCat]

82. Arab is an ethnicity, not a nationality.

[ThomCat]

81. Funny, but the area was called Palestine

so there must have been Palestinians. This idea that the Palestinians are made-up people is a new twist. It's amazing how quickly it has made the rounds.

[defendandprotect]

147. There was a Palestine when Jesus walked there... N/T

[Cary]

64. The "Palestinians'" whole raison d'etat. . .

is to be the victims. Yasser Arafat (born and raised in Egypt) and Gamal Abdul-Nasser invented the PLO for that very purpose.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Buddyblazon]

6. Pretty much.

[k_jerome]

9. the tactics have been successful...

they are still there. despite the wishes of many everywhere.

[ThomCat]

19. What tactics have been successful?

How do you define success?

[k_jerome]

37. Israel still exists despite...

the wishes of many people all over the world, especially their neighbors.

[ThomCat]

39. And you think that they survive Because of their

violent tactics?

I think they survive despite their tactics.

[Cary]

54. The only reason they survive is because the Arabs cannot. . .

have their way with them.

Yes, absolutely, close book end of story.

[ThomCat]

83. That must be a very simple book.

Does it have pictures in it?
:eyes:

[k_jerome]

68. i think they stopped behaving as some would wish they..

did after WWII. perhaps some would wish they were such sheep once more.

[in_cog_ni_to]

154. BINGO.

Great post. That's exactly what some people want. They hate seeing those Jews standing up for themselves. It drives them NUTS. They've replaced the cattlecars and death camps with bombs.

[ThomCat]

157. You're projecting again.

Nobody wants Jews, or more accurately, Israelis to be sheep. But I would prefer that Israelies not condone mass murder and the strangulation of an entire population.

Your posts are getting less nuanced, more dogmatic, and less intelligent as the evening goes on. It appears you're getting very upset.

It's funny that you can be here opposing neocons in the US but you fully support their counterparts in Israel. I can't imagine it's pleasant being schizophrenic.

[in_cog_ni_to]

160. I'm not upset at all. I'm use

to the Israel hatred on this board.. If you honestly believe there's not people in the ME who don't want the Jews dead, then I suggest you start reading something besides Noam Chomsky.

Now you're into name calling and insulting. Dogmatic, less nuanced and schizophrenic. Who's projecting?

[ThomCat]

163. I just call 'em like I see 'em.

I'm sorry if Chomsky's a bit dense for you. USA Today isn't nearly as well sourced.
:eyes:

I never suggested that there aren't people who hate Israel. I said that they don't have the power to do anything about it. Israel, however, seems to want to drive the Palestinians into the sea, and they're doing a fine job of it.

I'm more than willing to hold both sides to the same standards. For the past 50 years it's been the Israeli government that has been the worst offender.

[in_cog_ni_to]

166. from your post Nobody wants Jews, or more accurately, Israelis to be sheep

That's just absurd. Sorry, I don't read USA today and self-hating Jews do nothing for me either.

Then we agree. IF people in the ME had the power, they WOULD annihilate them...with pleasure. THAT is why Israel has the military they have. The worse offenders have been the people who have bombed Israel, attacked Israel and done everything in their power to destroy the country. Israel is defending herself.

[k_jerome]

180. your support of islamic extremists is not quite so funny. nt.

[MaswinMO]

11. When Israel withdrew from Gaza Hamas responded by...

Launching terrorist strikes on Israel.

You do realize Hamas's stated goal is the elimination of the state of Israel. Simply ending the occupation wouldn't satisfy them.

[Skidmore]

13. I think that this is an excuse for the continuation of war.

An excuse, but a convenient one, not to do the hard work of making peace.

[MaswinMO]

25. Israel and the PA did make peace...

Hamas then attacked Israel.

[Skidmore]

29. I guess my interpretation of what they had was not a peace but

more like a ceasefire. I don't believe any formal talks were actually taking place any longer. That there was an impass that had been in place for a few years now. And * and his crew did not see the need to force the issue a meaningful way that would move a negotiation along. Whatever process there was definitely was sidelined with Sharon's illness and the change in government.

[MaswinMO]

36. not really...

Olmert wants to continue what Sharon started.

[BillZBubb]

15. That's propaganda and rhetoric.

Polling of Palestinians shows that IF the Israelis for once treated them fairly, they would overwhelmingly not support attacks on Israel. Hamas' goal of eliminating the state of Israel could be easily reversed as was that of the PLO.

And of course Hamas attacked from Gaza. Decades of cruel occupation had ended. The Israelis still caused trouble for Gaza. Just because the Israeli's pulled out of Gaza FOR THEIR OWN REASONS was no reason to expect Palestinians to end their struggle. The Israeli's still control all of the West Bank and have created the Gaza Ghetto. The Palestinians will continue to fight for what is rightfully theirs.

[MaswinMO]

21. not sure about that....

For one thing Hamas is going to do whatever it wants regardless of what the Palestinian people want, until the Palestinians begin cutting support for Hamas.

Secondly, you're just admitting there that simply ending the occupation isn't enough to stop Hamas violence.

Even when Israel and the PA make an agreement Hamas rejects it and continues violence.

[BillZBubb]

183. Did you read what I wrote? Your post MAKES NO SENSE.

Palestinians WILL cut support for Hamas IF they are for once treated fairly by the Israelis. That means Israeli's leave ALL Palestinian territory as a first step. Go back to the pre-1967 borders.

Of course Hamas rejects what the PA and Israel agree to as long as Israel still has it's boot on the Palestinians neck in the West Bank.

The struggle against Israel will not end until Israel treats the Palestinians fairly. I don't think that is likely. The Israeli's want the Palestinian land more than they want peace.

[treestar]

27. That's why there's a war, isn't it?

Of course if Hamas or Hezbollah or Iran or whoever accepted Israel's existence, then there wouldn't be a war.

Israel needs to make some concessions based on its apparent weakness. What it does just aggravates its problems and makes new enemies. Let's face it, Israel has so many opponents to its very existence right next door and bordering on it, that maybe that should be taken into account next time they are negotiating. Maybe it is too weak to survive in that environment. Even the US couldn't survive if it were small and surrounded by countries controlled by Al Qaeda.

[ThomCat]

18. That's a damned intelligent post.

:applause:

[cali]

45. That was a totally uncalled for

ad-hominem attack. All that poster asked was what did the OP think should be done in this immediate circumstance.

[Joe Fields]

62. Compensate Palestinians for what?

If anyone should be forced to give up land or compensate, it should be Syria. It is Syria, where the Palestinian homeland lies, and it was Syria who kicked the Palestinians out.

[ThomCat]

84. Funny, many Palestinians have deeds for land in Isreal

not Syria.
:eyes:

Please try again.

[Xenotime]

24. Israel should do more...

They haven't done enough for peace in the middle east.

[MaswinMO]

26. do more?

Like by dismantling their govt?

[ThomCat]

32. Don't be rediculous.

How about staying within Israel's borders?
Or not building walls across other people's lands?
Or not draining the aquifer on other people's lands, hoarding the water rights?
Or not bulldozing people's homes?

There are a lot of things Israel could be doing to promote peace that have nothing to do with dismantling the government.

[MaswinMO]

34. How about Hamas not doing suicide bombs..

In Israeli marketplaces?

[ThomCat]

41. Israel kills several hundred people

so Hamas kills several people. Both are attrocities. Israel's is the bigger attrocity.

Would you expect the Palestinians to disarm and let Israel roll over them? If not for the Palestinian resistance Israel would have stolen much more land and killed many more people. Just like every nation has a right to exist, so too, every subjegated people have a right to resist.

[tkadmin]

151. Hold yer horses pard.

Don't recall Israel stealing land.  What I recall is that the
land Israel has "acquired" was as a result of war. 
Somebody on one side (or both?) wanted a fight.  One guy
punched the other and a big fight ensues.  One guy wins and
one loses.  To the winner go the spoils.  We can all argue
about who started it and who's at fault, that's fine. 
Opinions are one thing.  Creating facts out of opinion leaves
your jaw an inviting target.

There are so many other reasons to be on the Palestinian side
(not that I am or am not), but if you give your opponent a
hanger he's going to park it.

Facts are facts.  They stand on their own.  You cannot take
editorial comments from  Hannity and Limbaugh and create fact.
 Likewise, you cannot do it with WRC and Susan Estrich.

[ThomCat]

158. LOL

Neither hannity nor limbaugh would repeat any of what I said. They're on your side.

The fact that Israel has been involved in a on-again, off-again land-grab is not new, or even particularly controversial. The Wall, for example, is annexing new land and that has nothing to do with any publicly announced war. It's just Israeli policy.

Google that wall and check out the path that it takes. You'll be amazed.

[Buddyblazon]

5. My point is...any country can take any action they want.

They just have to realize there will be repercussions. And this goes for both sides. But raining death down on each other will certainly not create peace. Just more animosity.

If no one is willing to stop the destruction...where does it end?

[aquart]

23. How delightfully philosophical.

Tomorrow Israel and all her citizens will lay down their arms and go to sleep.

Will they wake up alive?

You aren't really asking that both sides lay down their arms. You're really insisting that only Israel do it. Israel surrounded by how many huge arab nations?

[treestar]

31. BS that is not what was said.

But that another approach be taken.

Israel is not located in a good place, that's the reality. If you are surrounded by enemies, you're going to be stuck with this kind of existence.

Which in the modern world, isn't really necessary. I'd migrate to America if I were from that area of the world - whether I was Jewish, Christian or Muslim.

Face it, nobody there wants "peace." The Israelis knew they were settling in land that was not so empty as they pretend. The Arabs know that the Israelis are going to be there for their forseeable future.

But no effort is made at all to come to some kind of settlement. It's just "they killed our children," answered by "so what, they killed our children on some previous date."

The rest of the world is starting to get to the point of saying I don't care who started it, stop it now. Or go to your room.

[Baclava]

120. Israel is always the big bad bully on the block...

...to the people who are ignorant of geography

[ThomCat]

123. The size of the nation doesn't mean nearly as much

as the size of the military, and the amount of backing they receive from the world superpowers.

[treestar]

20. The US and Israel both use the term "defend itself" to apply to

offensive attacks on other countries. The US "defends" itself by attacking countries 10,000 miles away from the US. That might have WMD. (Notice that if they DID have WMD, the US would not attack, knowing the mutual assured destruction that could follow.)

[Igel]

35. So what should Israel do?

Free people that killed its citizens, and are unrepentant and considered heroes?

Pull back beyond its borders, and simply cede land?

Or possibly cater to every provocation?

Israel was out of Lebanon. Fully. Until Syria found an old land claim that was mostly abandoned in the '50s and '60s and '70s ... to provide a bone of contention to justify why Hezbollah hadn't surrendered its weapons. Note the tense: it's not that the claim was found, and the withdrawal ignored it, so the weapons were justified; the withdrawal happened, the weapons were not turned in, re-arming proceeded, and some justification was needed and the land claim magically appeared. Syria won't even *validate* the land claim, so as soon as it's turned over, Syria might well reclaim it.

Israel released prisoners down to a very small number. But now the assumption is that every Lebanese that went missing during the occupation is in some Israeli jail. No motivation needed; those Jews, they get their rocks off by torturing Arabs and imprisoning them, doncha know. They weren't an issue last time Hezbollah decided to sell a Jew back to Israel.

In Gaza and the West Bank, starting points are difficult to come up with, since every reaction has an action before it. I discount them all. But in Lebanon, both sides said "basta" and called it quits. They reset the clock. We have a reasonably valid starting point.

[Cleita]

61. First they need to elect some progressive leaders who will

bring more than guns to the table to sort this mess out.

[ThomCat]

86. Absolutely.

That would be an awesome first step.

[Igel]

132. So, in other words, you hope they elect somebody

you like that'll be able to actually offer a solution that you like.

I see. Who says we need leaders to follow?

[ThomCat]

138. The same is said of the Palestinians.

How dare they elect people we don't like.
:eyes:

[Cleita]

142. Apparently Israelis, like the rest of the world are

giving into their fears and electing father figures who they think are going to protect them, who are in fact, fascist warhawks. They gain power by keeping the conflicts and bloodshed going. The weaker minded among us did the same and voted for Bush when Monica scared them to death with her thong.

All kidding aside, read what John Dean has to say about this. It all comes together and makes sense now. He has labeled this phenomena authoritarianism for what it is when people vote against their own best interests thinking that they will be safe. So we have to shed the fears that make us do this and vote for those with a brain who can think outside of the box. Israel and other democracies in the ME need to do this too.

btw Netanyahu (sp.?) and Sharon have been well liked by our present government.

[mmonk]

44. Peace takes courage when two sides are and always will

be right in their own eyes.

[Joe Fields]

51. So, just stand there and allow yourself to get beaten to a bloody pulp?

[raysr]

90. Swatting flies

with a sledgehammer. In our law when a couple of guys get in fight it's usually "simple assault", a misdemeaner. However, if the winner beats the other to a pulp it's a felony, "Assault and Battery". The degree of Isreal's response against an enemy of disproportionate means of defense or ability to attack is the issue. Kind of like the US attacking Iraq who had basically no way to defend itself at all. The "schoolyard bully" mindset. Iran took 66 US hostages in 1979 and our response wasn't waging war against Iran. Isreal will wear the badge of the holocaust to the end of time I'm afraid. If they're still pissed about that, why not attack Germany? Oh yeah, that wouldn't work at all would it?

[ThomCat]

93. Another very intelligent post.

Nicely said.

[Bonobo]

170. You spout Neo-Nazi swill, RAYSR. I will quote you:

"Isreal will wear the badge of the holocaust to the end of time I'm afraid. If they're still pissed about that, why not attack Germany?"

Yup, Israel is just using that stupid old Holocaust excuse again. It probably didn't even happan anyway, right? At least not in the numbers they taught us, right? And they killed Christians too, yeah, I know... Heard it all.

[Puglover]

182. Someone DARES to add this to the discussion

and you infer they are a Nazi. Complete and utter bullshit and you should be ashamed.

[Bonobo]

184. The word is "imply" not "infer"

As in: I can "infer" that you are an ass-hat from your posts.

[Puglover]

185. Snappy and thoughtful.

Your posts always so pithy?

Actually I will give you a response though you hardly deserve one. The holocaust should never be forgotten. Never. It is still is almost unbelievable that it actually happened. Years ago I had thought that it never could happen again although lately I'm starting to wonder. I cannot begin to imagine the lifelong pain of the survivors or their loved ones. I also do not claim to be (like so many on this board) an expert on the ME. That being said, I think you pretty much end rational discussion when you IMFUCKINGPLY that someone is a Nazi and call people asshats.

Can you not even think for a second that the Holocaust has shaped Israels response to her enemies in some way? Is that so terribly provocative? Perhaps "wear the badge of the holocaust" wasn't a great choice of words but I think that is what the poster was saying.

[ScreamingWhisper]

172. but what about President Carter

attempting to send troops in in 1979 - 80? Were those troops going in to talk nice to the captors? Speak with the Ayatolla? I think Pres. Carter's efforts would have been carried thu militarily if possible, in addition to the diplomatic realm at the same time. IF those troops had arrive in Iran...what would they have done?
It's nice we can spend time "quarterbacking", but there are forces in the ME that DO want to make western influence nill and void, but still want the benefits of interacting with the West at the same time. It's the extreme groups that override all mutual benefit.

[DemonFighterLives]

92. I don't really want to get too deeply in this topic

Our little knucklehead in chief has much of this blood on his hands. He stole office and layed off on the quest for peace. He is all about death and destruction and I don't think he cares who is doing the dying.

Some real adults need to step in and Palestinians need to be free and Israel needs to find their own state. I don't care if it is "47" borders or 67 borders or whatever. There needs to be division and stability.


Georgie and the depopulators need to go.
:hide:

[ladjf]

134. I think that Israel welcomes the rocket attacks by Hezbollah.

They give them a justification for their reign of terror. The rockets have a range of less than 20 kilometers. They are being fired from just over the border. Satellite photos, plus computer trajectory information would show the IDF exactly where the sources are located. Short of that aerial recon would pinpoint them shooters in minutes. What I am saying is that the IDF is allowing the bottle rocket attacks to continue. All the while they are claiming that the rockets were made in Iran,

Iran has some of the best small rockets in the world. If they wanted to significantly assist Hezbollah they would have supplied them with some serious hardware.

This is a bogus endeavor by Israel and acts of totally desperate stupidity by Hamas and Hezbollah.

[in_cog_ni_to]

145. Stay tuned. Hezbollah has surprises for Israel.

Their "leader" siad so. They have missiles that will reach Tel Aviv. This is only going to get worse.

[ComerPerro]

146. that's where public perception comes into play

its each side's job to make it clear that they are on the defensive, and that the other side is the agressor.

Israel has already won that war.

[Camp_Democracy]

152. Hezbollah = Al-CIAda

Is it possible?

Could this be Israel's 9/11
...their 'pearl harbor' that allows them to do what they want in the region like US??

[in_cog_ni_to]

153. All Israel wants is for the daily bombardment of her land and citizens to

STOP. When Hezbollah and Hamas lay down their arms, there will be PEACE.

[hedgetrimmer]

173. All Israel wants is Palestinian genocide... when all the Palestinians are

Dead there will be Peace.

[in_cog_ni_to]

178. Only in the minds of

the Israel haters.

[hedgetrimmer]

187. Yawn... only German haters believe there was a Jewish holocost

If this is the general ability to "THINK" in the land of "you support us or you are an Israel hater" I really do feel compassion for these people....
angryarab.blogspot.com


Yesterday, Israel succeeded in hitting an agent of the Iranian conspiracy in Lebanon. (For Robert Fisk, it is a Syrian conspiracy).

[DemonFighterLives]

181. You could be very close

but it may not be the cia- maybe Likudnicks.
:shrug:

[rucky]

164. TEXAS STYLE!

any excuse to clobber the shit outta someone, I suppose.

goes for both sides.

Somebody's got to be the adult, here.

[The Stranger]

165. It is the BIG LIE, which when told, is easier to take than the little lie.

[ScreamingWhisper]

171. But Israel

has given land up... each time over the last 20 years (north and South border) each time they are met with more attacks (bus bombings from the PLO) or in this instance rocket attacks sent into Israelie territory. At what point does Israel (like now0 simply say "NO MORE" It seems like every time Israel gives more gound, pulls back with the promised peace (even if they by all rightss could hold that ground by reolution 242(?) they are still pushed?
Where should any country then stop the relinquishment and stand fast?

[earth mom]

188. Agree. But what I find really amazing is that there are people around DU

who actually agree with * that Israel should defend itself!!!

:wtf:

If * believes it's okay, then the first thing anyone around here should do is wonder just what the fuck he has up his sleeve!!!

As in WAR, WAR and MORE WAR for the United States!

:grr: