Why can't religious students have clubs at schools?

[Charlie Brown]

I just don't see why not. If all the school does is allow students to use a classroom after/before hours and have the same resources that all clubs have, then what's the problem? Surely an impartial observer would not see that as "endsorsement" or any special favoritism (as per the conditions of O'Connor's "lemon test").

I'm not talking about "hate groups" like Phelps and Co., or the KKK, just average religious students who want to meet and talk about faith outside of school hours. That doesn't seem to be asking for very much.

On edit: I know religius clubs do meet, and are considered legal. I've just read a lot of posts, particularly in the Obama threads, that say they are not legal. I'd just like to get a better grasp of the issue.

[Captain Hilts]

1. Where do you draw the line? That's the problem. nt

[MercutioATC]

6. Santeria Club, anybody?

:)

[RoseMead]

19. "I don't practice Santeria

Ain't got no crystal ball,
Well I had a million dollars
But I spent it all..."

Wait, isn't that the mantra of every Republican in Congress...

[MADem]

22. Bwahahahahahahaha!!!!

Because the late buses have been cancelled, the Satanism Club meeting has been rescheduled until Tuesday, and the Santeria Club will meet Wednesday in the study hall. Student must not leave their dead animals or live chickens in their lockers over the weekend. Thank you."

[Swamp Rat]

36. Where do I put my Vodou dolls of Dumbya and Lumpya during recess?

:D

[MADem]

44. In your locker, with your candles, herbs and bones!

That's a good lad now...back to class!!!

[Swamp Rat]

51. Wait! Let me stick in ONE MORE pin!

:evilgrin:

[MADem]

53. Jeeeez, that pic is HIDEOUS

Great work!

[Swamp Rat]

77. thanks! Here ya go:

[Xenotime]

2. simple...separation of church and state.

By allowing it to happen means they are endorsing it. And, if the school receives state money then that goes against the constitution.

[bryant69]

126. Should political clubs be held to the same standard?

If they allow a Young Republicans Club there is a conflict of interest, because clearly the school supports REpublicans if they allow it to exist.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ixion]

3. religious clubs belong in churches, not schools

just my two cents. :-)

[LittleClarkie]

31. But if it's an interest just like any other interest, I don't see

the difference.

As long as any other group also gets to have a club, including atheists or Muslims or Wiccans, or what have you, I don't see the issue, really.

It's a matter of where to draw the line, but no one is forcing anyone to join a club. And if we draw the line to far in one direction we'll have discrimination and a violation of civil rights.

[KansDem]

48. Why couldn't atheists or Muslims or Ricans have a club at a church?

A christian church?

Oh, yeah, "private property." God's House in situated on private property...

[ContraBass Black]

84. The atheists or Muslims or Ricans can have a club at school.

Just like everybody else.

[KansDem]

104. Hey! That makes sense!

:thumbsup:

[hobbit709]

4. That's what churches are for.

[Jacobin]

5. Geeze, don't you guys get enough of that at church?

And there are boatloads of religious schools, if you want that.

The baptists around here have 3 to 5 hour services on Sunday, Saturday picnics and 2 hours on Wednesday night.

Or perhaps the seminary would be a choice, if full blown gospelin' is in yer blood.

[LittleClarkie]

34. What if you just have an interest in religion, just like any other

extra curricular activity. Hey it might not be your cup of tea, but then a group formed around chess or something like that wouldn't be mine. Why treat it any differently than any other club?

[Kingshakabobo]

52. Because the chess club isn't likely to start preaching that.......

......other students, such as Gays and a Jews, are going to hell.

[LittleClarkie]

57. Aren't we talking about a club meeting in a room like any club?

Come to think of it, there are political clubs too. Don't they to some extent preach?

But then again, neither analogy works because while an individual student might preach on politics and/or religion, a gaggle of kids in a club isn't going to roam the halls looking for someone to convert.

Should we tell the kids not to talk politics either?

I just don't see why one interest should be treated different from any other just because some folks might not grok it.

[Kingshakabobo]

125. "Don't they to some extent preach?"

Maybe they do. Maybe they don't. But if you start telling your republican/democratic opponent that they are going to hell for their political beliefs, I'm guessing that will be some sort of violation of school conduct policies. Of course, a Jesite can always spew bigotry, hate and intolerance while hiding behind their "beliefs" and their "scriptures."

(Note: not all Christians are Jesites or bigots)

[Jacobin]

59. Yeah. It could be like, sorta, just a little club

Ya, know, religion is so harmless an all, i mean they jest wanna study like the bible an all, and no proselytizing or anything, and of course, it'll all be like, you know, really cool and all, because, you know, nobody fights or dies or starts wars or anything over religion an all, and its ya know real wholesome an all, and just because taxpayer money built the building an just because that silly old constitution says we should keep church and state separate, I mean, that's just OLD thinking and not modern and jeebus wouldn't like that law at all, and ya know since Bush is giving taxpayer money to churches, I mean, like, whats the difference, an all......

:eyes:

JEbus!

[LittleClarkie]

74. It's not religion, but what is done with religion

and what do you think, they're going to form a club so they can go out en mass and roam the halls looking for kids to convert?

How about we separate out the kids with an interest in religion and send them to their own schools, you know, kinda like they used to do with black people. I can't believe there are people in this thread saying "Ah, send em to church schools if they want to talk religion."

It's an interest just like any other. And I do believe there is such a thing as civil rights, even for people with an interest in religion.

Sorry if you think we're all maniacs looking to convert your children and start a war. And I'm really sorry if you don't see how stereotypical and prejudiced that attitude is.

[Kingshakabobo]

106. Poor Christians. Being segregated like black kids.

:nopity:

Come on.

[Jacobin]

124. Whatever

I'm prejudiced because I've had to deal with a lot of soothsayers.

Anyway, there are lots of bible clubs in the schools where I live and BIG GIANT rebel flags on the marquees for the schools too.
Oh, and they ban 'naughty' books in the library...ya know, like Catcher in the Rye

I'm sick of Xtians whining about their 'lack of freedoms' and their persecutions\

FUCK EM ALL

[LittleClarkie]

148. Thank you for illustrating what I'm talking about re: prejudice.

Odd to see someone so loud and proud of it, even so.

But just so you know, the OP was talking about a Wiccan club. I don't have a problem with that either. Do you?

[The Straight Story]

127. Don't we get enough sports on weekends?

How about playing AD&D? Or gay clubs, they have places they can meet as well.

Religion is more than just a sunday thing to someone, it is a life choice and style that permeates each and every day.

Not to mention there are many different churches and getting people from different ones to spend time together could help in progression of varied faiths.

Kids have interests. They have clubs for like minded kids. They meet, talk, and have fun.

[ContraBass Black]

7. Which school is it in which they can't?

[karlrschneider]

8. Many public schools do have them.

:eyes:

[Charlie Brown]

9. yes, but many here say it's illegal nt

[Solon]

38. And they are wrong...

Actually, schools are considered neutral on religion, they have to TREAT religions the same way they treat any other student run club. The biggest problems are things like this. Some GLBT students, and their Straight friends want to form a Gay-Straight Alliance club at school, the school board refuses, they sue to have it allowed, and in response, the public school bans ALL student clubs, religious or not which is the ONLY thing they can do. Now, to reasonable people this is a bigoted school board that went overboard in their bigotry, but to mainstream media and Christian Right circles, its "STUDENTS BAN RELIGIOUS CLUBS IN SCHOOL". Its a bunch of bullshit, frankly.

[karlrschneider]

68. DU is a big community. Bound to have some uninformed people.

Sorry to say...

[Charlie Brown]

121. yes, I've noticed that is true nt

[Hekate]

131. Charlie, in under half a sec you could have googled & gotten the facts

I googled for "ACLU + defense of religious clubs in public schools" and in 48/100 sec got 680,000 hits on the topic, including the ones I reference in my post below.

All you are doing here is setting up the well-known moldy straw man. The alleged persecution of Christians in the US is not only untrue but a patented talking point for the wingnuts.

It would be better for all concerned if instead of posting an untruth framed as a question, you simply researched your facts and set out to educate yourself and others.

The facts are that the First Amendment is alive and strong (except where Bush has tried to shut it down), and that if you or any other Christian feels threatened you can turn to the American Civil Liberties Union. Despite being excoriated by the right wing, the ACLU can and will defend ANYONE's civil liberties if they are violated.

Hekate

[Charlie Brown]

136. thanks but I am not a Christian

I am a Wiccan and like to know that I or my friends could form a club in a school or library if I wanted.

[Hekate]

142. I apologize if I misunderstood the thrust of your posts, CB...

It was your seeming to hang on to the argument put out by the phony "persecuted Christians" that irked me and made me think you were in that category.

I'll switch from being an irritable crone to offering some unasked-for advice on forming a club -- we also have teachers and school administrators at DU who would know more than I, but I have participated in forming community groups so I know a bit.

By now you must have gotten the message loud and clear that religious clubs at public schools are protected activities, within certain limits. For clarification, read the links to the ACLU site.

If you really want to start a club for Wiccans on your campus, more power to you and good luck. Start by doing your homework

You will need to be very clear on your objectives as well as your rights, because you will encounter opposition from the ignorant (both left and right). Write up a plan that includes these things.

AFAIK all clubs need a faculty advisor, so make a list of those you think might be sympathetic before beginning to approach them. Research your school's rules regarding clubs in general, and then research your school board's opinions on same.

If your district and school have banned religious clubs because of past controversy or fear of controversy, include language in your plan that points up Constitutional protections -- and the ACLU's advocacy on behalf of (especially) Christian groups, to forestall arguments that you may be advocating solely for yourself.

Do a little research online regarding the Unitarian Universalists and CUUPs (the Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans). The UUs are not pagans as such, but shelter a pagan group. You may find friends in places you didn't suspect.

I have to run now, but will check back much later tonight.

I wish you well in your endeavor.

Hekate

[Charlie Brown]

145. thank you nt

[deadparrot]

10. They are.

If the school has as few as one extra-curricular student-led and student-organized group, then students have a legal right to organize a Bible or other religious club to meet outside of classroom time.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ps_pra9.htm

[Charlie Brown]

14. A lot of people here seem to say that that is illegal nt

[deadparrot]

16. Then I guess the Supreme Court says they're wrong.

:shrug:

[Lars39]

11. So it's OK to have science clubs at the mega churches

that accept faith-based funding, right?

[ContraBass Black]

39. It's ok to have science clubs at schools.

Whether or not the church has one too is up to the church.

[Lars39]

47. But they have received tax dollars. They are now a public entity.

[ContraBass Black]

54. They shouldn't receive tax dollars.

But that doesn't relate directly to student-led religious groups at schools with volunteer contributions from unpaid faculty.

[Lars39]

78. But they have received our tax dollars.

Their doors should be open to student-led pro-evolution clubs.

[ContraBass Black]

89. No, that foolishness isn't solved by declaring that the funding

Constitutes a lease. Churches getting funding doesn't mean that they should be public property, it means that the government should stop giving them money.

[Lars39]

97. They can't have it both ways.

[ContraBass Black]

107. They shouldn't have it both ways. They should not have public funding.

This is the third time I've said it.

[antigone382]

12. I didn't know they couldn't.

I graduated less than five years ago after having attended five different high schools...each of them had a Fellowship of Christian Athletes, and most of them had prayer groups that would meet once or twice a day. Moreover, in the tragic instances when a student died, a few of the schools I went to had a school-wide prayer for the deceased.

Of course, this was in the Bible belt, so maybe they bent the rules a little, but unless the laws have changed I'm pretty sure students can have religious groups outside of school hours, and within certain parameters.

Edited to clarify: I'm pretty sure that as long as such groups are student-led, it's totally OK. When you get into groups that are led by an employee of the school, in particular a teacher or administrator, who we can assume has enough power to intimidate students into participating in activities which they may not believe in, the situation gets a little more dicey.

[Ezlivin]

Some students have more than clubs - they have knives and guns, too

You wanna talk about some sectarian violence...

[SteppingRazor]

13. My public school had a Bible study group...

it met after school, but on school grounds, and was completely organized and made up of students, with no faculty help.

I know this because they met in the music room, and they were an annoyance to those of us who liked to loiter in there, play some guitar and whatnot.

[Kelvin Mace]

15. As I mention in another thread

School is for learning, not for religious indoctrination. Anyone can form a "religous club", they are called churches. There are dozens, hundreds, of churches in most communities, why can't Bible studies be held there instead of in schools?

[Charlie Brown]

17. not all religions meet in churches

Contrary to popular belief, not everyone in the US is a Christian. :eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. Which religion is it...

that prescribes religious service in public schools?

[Charlie Brown]

23. probably a religion that doesn't have a convenient meeting place

and could clearly use a place to meet at a school.

[Beaverhausen]

82. It isn't the responsibility of schools to provide meeting places for...

...religious groups. The group can certainly find somewhere else to meet.

[Charlie Brown]

86. that's an argument against all extra-curricular clubs

It isn't the school's responsibility to provide meeting places for (name unpopular group). They can certainly meet somewhere else.

I've heard that same line in fundie communities where LGBT clubs are formed.

[Beaverhausen]

91. You aren't making any sense

Groups of school students meeting after school for say, the chess club or the drama club is a SCHOOL FUNCTION. It is a group of students from THAT SCHOOL who are gathering for activities, not from organization not affiliated with the school.

[Charlie Brown]

99. yes, I'm talking about student-led clubs

I'm not sure what you are saying, either.

[Kelvin Mace]

94. The Constitution does not

have a prohibition against state sexuality, only state relgions.

[Charlie Brown]

102. so you disagree with the current legality of these clubs

and think they should be universally booted out of the schools.

[Kelvin Mace]

108. Yep!

But as the courts have ruled they are OK as long as they are neutral, it sucks to be me.

Despite the fact that the courts have allowed them, the Right still claims they don't and claims "prayer is illegal" in school. They want special treatment and recognition of THEIR religion.

[Kelvin Mace]

92. There are people's homes

community centers, other churches, and much more.

Why schools? The presence of religious groups is disruptive and invloves matters of dogma and faith as opposed to scholarly fact.

[Kelvin Mace]

87. Yeah, i don't generally

hear the Rastafarians or the Buddhists demanding prayer in school, or religious dogma study.

[Kelvin Mace]

85. Never said they were

but the facilities exist fo such things and schools are NOT the place.

[Charlie Brown]

88. that could be argued for any extra-curricular club

especially a School Democrats Club or a Pride Club.

[Kelvin Mace]

100. As I said

the Constitution does not prohibit the establishment of state sexuality, only state reigion.

[ourbluenation]

18. In ccalifornia lots of schools have them. eom

[dubeskin]

21. My school has one

But they meet at lunch, and their is a teacher supervisor. I guess it is ok since there is one, and there are many (to my knowledge) in the country.

[Gabi Hayes]

49. dube....dude! how old are you?

welcome to DU, DUbe!

tell us about yourself, and how you found about this place

you are one sharp knife, but you may warp yourself coming here at such an early point in your development

hope you stick around, and, if you do, you'll find out that what that teacher is doing wouldn't be allowed here, illegal or not, at least for now.

I work in junior high school, and there's no WAY we could have group headed by a teacher meet during school. nobody here has tried to get a group together after school either, but it would be an interesting situation

we have the most culturally diverse Jr. High in the entire state of Illinois, with over 20 different languages spoken, and lord knows how many religions represented, including at number a hundred Muslim students, from quite a few different countries

and, guess what? not that this has anything to do with religion, but our school is on the No child left behind watch list, and is about to be taken over by the state, if we don't get a few of our subgroups up to "standards," which we won't.

but I digress.....

hope you enjoy it here....

[dubeskin]

163. Ehh, only 15

But my school is located in the heart of the most conservative county(Placer, as I'm told by people) in Claifornia. So maybe they are allowed to have one?:shrug:

Also, all of a sudden I took a political interest, and decided to do some google searching, and found this place, and I like it here.

[DinahMoeHum]

24. IMHO, you either allow for ALL kinds of religions to have this at schools

or you don't allow ANY to have this in their schools.

Once you start making exceptions, such as for certain Xtian groups, you're in big trouble.
This is why, for most schools, the better choice is to not have them AT ALL. They cannot possibly accommodate every single one of them.

:shrug:

[deaniac21]

25. They shouldn't be allowed to have weapons of any type.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

26. I See No Reason Whatsoever. The Should Be Allowed.

There is no harm whatsoever that I could see. I must say I'm unfamiliar with the context of this thread and guess this was an issue somewhere, but just based on logic alone I say let the kids have their group. I hope they do.

[Amy6627]

27. What makes you think they can't? The ACLU supports religous clubs

at public schools:

Equal Access Act
13. Student religious clubs in secondary schools must be permitted to meet and to have equal access to campus media to announce their meetings, if a school receives federal funds and permits any student non-curricular club to meet during non-instructional time. This is the command of the Equal Access Act. A non-curricular club is any club not related directly to a subject taught or soon-to-be taught in the school. Although schools have the right to ban all non-curriculum clubs, they may not dodge the law's requirement by the expedient of declaring all clubs curriculum-related. On the other hand, teachers may not actively participate in club activities and "non-school persons" may not control or regularly attend club meeting.

http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/16146leg19950412.html

[Charlie Brown]

32. I've read posts recently that say it is illegal nt

I know the USSC and the ACLU feel otherwise, but quite a few posters have indicated that such clubs violate the establishment clause, and are illegal. I thought I'd start this thread to try and have a more objective discussion.

Just want to understand the argument more.

[Amy6627]

35. At the ACLU site where I got my 1st reply to you, they say that a lot

of schools are confused and/or scared about religion on campus that they just ban all religious activity, but that are wrong in doing that. That's my take.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. How about a link to these posts?

I haven't seen them.

If there's an argument against, it's using public funds and property to prostelytize a religion, which is a clear violation of church and state seperation

[Charlie Brown]

46. nope, they argue that all religious clubs are unconstitutional

and some are right here in this thread.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. Charlie Brown...

do you believe that there should be a firm wall that seperates church and state.

[Charlie Brown]

65. certainly

but there should also be a firm wall that keeps the government from prohibing religion or desuading practitioners from meeting. It seems that both walls can co-exist in a public school.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

73. Whoa there.

That's a bit of an exaggeration, nobody's prohibiting religion or desuading practitioners from meeting.

I don't want to have a bunch of scientologists performing an alien seance in my basement, that doesn't mean I'm prohibiting their religion or desuading their practitioners from meeting.

[Charlie Brown]

79. the schools would be saying that religious clubs are not eligible

to hold meetings that other organizations and groups hold after hours (like Pride Clubs or School Democrats). An observer could construe that other groups were being given an edge that religious groups were not getting. They could argue that people of faith were being treated differently than other groups of students, and that the school was trying to deter religion.

I've heard that argued before, and they do seem to have a point. That's probably why the current law is that if any club meets, religious clubs are also eligible to meet.

[Hekate]

133. It's called the First Amendment, Charlie. No other laws need be passed.

And as long as your little club -- and the school -- have a live and let live policy, there is no legal problem whatsoever.

Problems arise when your little club preaches hellfire and damnation to non-believers. Problems arise when your little club goes on a social power trip.

Like that would ever happen. :sarcasm:

"Live and let live" used to be the American way. As long as all students are taught that the First Amendment means what it says and that ALL religions are accorded protection along with NON-believers, then what we have is a learning experience in diversity.

Just better be sure the Wiccan Social and the Humanist Club get equal billing, okay?

See my post downthread that includes links to the ACLU history of protecting religous expression (including Christian) on public schools campuses.

Hekate

[Charlie Brown]

137. again, I am not a Christian

I would love the idea of a Wiccan Social meeting at my local school.

[in_cog_ni_to]

28. My high school had a religious group. They met after school for their

little prayer sessions. Why they can't just do that in their church is beyond me, but that's what they did. It's when they move to pray in the classroom and at lunch as a whole school policy that's the problem. That's where this crap is headed. Give them an inch, they'll take a mile and before you know it, we'll have 'Christian' public schools. They have NO RIGHT to use PUBLIC SCHOOL resources either. 'I' pay school taxes and I'm Jewish. There's the problem. The world is NOT Christian.

What are churches for? Just wondering.

[Blue_In_AK]

56. When I was in highschool...

...in suburban Houston way back in the early '60s, it was permeated with religion - the Southern Baptist brand, in particular. There was always a morning prayer over the PA "in Jesus' name" and there were Bible study clubs and groups. If you weren't a Southern Baptist (I was a Methodist) you weren't really in the "in" group, but I was kind of an oddball anyway and an outsider (I was new from Colorado), so that didn't really bother me much. I was a member of the a capella choir, and, of course, at least 50 percent of the songs we learned were religious in nature. I didn't have such a problem with the classics -- Handel's Messiah, for instance -- but we also learned and performed a lot of Protestant hymns, and in fact sang in various (invariably Southern Baptist) churches in East Texas when we went on our choir "trip." I didn't think much about all this back then because it was how we were brought up, with blatantly religious Christmas pageants in elementary school, etc.

I don't know if any of us were hurt by this, but as an adult, I believe that religion should be left out of schools, unless it's of the "comparative religions of the world" variety.

[Big Kahuna]

29. Well, I can give you one example..

My family recently moved to Oklahoma, and our kid's new school had one of those "Christian after-school programs". There was a lot of peer-pressure on our kids to go to the after school thing.. My older Son handled it ok, but my daughter was really harassed and bullied by her classmates because she was different. The abuse got so bad we pulled our Daughter out of school 4 weeks before the end of term. My family is Wiccan, by the way.

Mixing public schools and religion is just a bad idea. The program itself, and the adults involved might have benign enough intentions, but it sets up an oppressive peer environment for minorities.

[Charlie Brown]

41. that's actually the first good argument I've heard against religious clubs

It never ocurred to me that it would create an environment of peer pressure. I guess the question is should religious clubs be barred across the board in the US, or should the school make the call if zealotry and pressure get out of hand during the school day.

[ContraBass Black]

83. That's not an issue of afterschool programs or religion.

That's cultural intolerance. If you sent them to a school full of jocks who made them absolutely miserable because they weren't on an after school sports team, that would be similar.

Religion does not imply the mistreatment of others. Neither does an afterschool club.

[One_Life_To_Give]

110. Doesn't sound like the same thing

Was the Christian program one of many after school programs or the only after school program? Your situation sounds like the latter which would be a violation of the 1st ammendment as I see it. But if there were sports clubs, drama, choral, math astronomy etc. clubs all meeting at the same time. I don't beleive we could or should prevent students from holding a bible study or koran study etc.

[PurgedVoter]

30. Letting one in allows all.

There are groups such as the Christian Athletes and YMCA that have been part of the after school scene.
But to answer your question clearly, if you let one group use school resources freely, it opens the door to the rest or it is discrimination. A Bible study leads to a Koran study. A Christian group leads to a Wiccan group (Please no offense to Wiccans meant, I find their beliefs closer to what Christ taught than what Christians espouse. Suddenly Moonies, Sociologists, Cult of the Month, Satanists, and Church of Bob all have a right to be established. Students can always meet and talk about faith. Students can always pray. Adults in the pay of the school should not be involved in the control, guidance and selection of how faith is pursued.

As a child, I heard prayer in school. Coaches and Principals and football stars would all get up and pray for the crushing manglement of the other team. We were expected to fervently focus our connection with God to these evil prayers. As a Fundamentalist Christian, I totally endorse the removal of 'official' prayer or religious organization from school. I don't want any child to be lead in prayer or religious study by someone devoid of compassionate depth and soul searching. It is bad enough when it happens at a church.

[LittleClarkie]

45. But we're still talking descrimination to some extent.

I say let them all in unless they advocate violence. Wiccans, atheists, the whole lot of em.

I dunno, I'm not sure I get your argument. Sure kids can pray anywhere. But they can play chess just about anywhere too. An interest is an interest. Why tell a kid he can't have an interest in something because someone else might be offended.

[PurgedVoter]

55. I grew up in an era of forced Christianity.

Here in Texas, the first question was what church do you go to. Now people are free to be Christians. I like it much better this way.
I don't mind a teacher telling Jimmy how to play chess as long as that teacher can demonstrate that he or she can play a decent game of chess. We have teachers in our schools that know that 144,000 people are going to Heaven, the world is 6000 years old and that Jesus prefers the King James Bible. These are generally the same teachers that want to sponsor a religious group in the school.

[in_cog_ni_to]

71. What church do you go to? I don't know about you, but

I think that's one of the RUDEST things you could ask a person. It's right up there with "How much money do you make?" It's RUDE and it's no one's freakin' business what church I go to or whether I attend a church or not. Why do they have a need to know that? Weird, very weird...IMCPO.

[LittleClarkie]

155. But the OP is a Wiccan

Now what say you?

[porphyrian]

33. Why should they?

What does religion have to do with public school? I assume you mean public schools, because universities and private schools do have religious clubs/organizations.

[LittleClarkie]

58. What do alot of interests that end up being clubs have to do with schools

why pick and choose one interest from another?

[porphyrian]

66. Religion isn't an interest, and chess doesn't attempt to define existance.

You can pretend not to see the difference if you'd like, but it's clear to me.

[nashville_brook]

37. ugh, because they already have a club called "church"

[nashville_brook]

42. why can't secular students have clubs at church?

[ContraBass Black]

63. Because the church is a private institution, and can choose not to

Grant them the use of the premises. They can, however, have a secular club at school.

[nashville_brook]

161. thank you for answering the OP's question

:)

[ContraBass Black]

43. My God, those poor strawmen.

This is brutal. :cry:

[Swamp Rat]

50. Why can't religious students go to clubs at religious schools?

If they go to a public school, why can't they simply ask permission to attend religious clubs at private schools where clubs are already established? - a VERY sery simple solution and most folks would be happy.

[ContraBass Black]

61. Certainly, if the club at a religious school is open to the public,

They can go whenever they want.

But if they can't start their own club at their school only because of its religious focus, when other kinds of clubs are allowed, their religion is being forcibly excluded. Allowing students to meet in an unoccupied classroom after school does not constitute an endorsement of words spoken and philosophy promoted during that meeting.

There's a lot of "why can't" this, and "why can't" that in this thread, but it's a false premise. They can.

[Swamp Rat]

76. I was speaking rhetorically

and I haven't read all the other 'why' posts. I know they can do this.

My recommendation is much easier to follow since religious schools are already set up for after school religious activities, and I am sure that they would LOVE to have more kids come in and pray, or do whatever they do in those clubs. Also, churches can fulfill this need if it arises, thus using their funds to run the place after hours (electricity, adult supervision, etc.).

Personally I don't care if there are religious clubs in public schools after hours - ONLY - if ALL religions are represented equally.

[ContraBass Black]

80. They shouldn't have to leave to do their thing, any more than the

Other students should. For convenience, solidarity, practicality, and a host of other reasons, students ike to have afterschool clubs in their own schools, rather than someone else's.

If somebody feels uncomfortable because the Christian students go into a room together and interact with each other, that's their problem, not the Christians.

[Swamp Rat]

96. False argument and this is a non-issue.

"They shouldn't have to leave to do their thing, any more than the Other students should." - They can do their thing in church, the place designed for religious practice and religious clubs. The public school was never intended to be a place of worship. Nevertheless, students are free to have religious clubs in public school after hours and this is a non-issue.

"For convenience, solidarity, practicality, and a host of other reasons, students ike to have afterschool clubs in their own schools, rather than someone else's." - Not in every case, or even in a majority of cases. There are MANY more churches in my neighborhood and there are more private schools with faciities designed to accomodate religious activities.

"If somebody feels uncomfortable because the Christian students go into a room together and interact with each other, that's their problem, not the Christians." - Quite the opposite. How about if I practice Vodou in your church? If you don't like it, you can go to another room.

Again, this is a non-issue.

[ContraBass Black]

101. What is the issue that would make it better or necessary for them

To attend a religious club at a religious school instead of having their own in their own school?

[Swamp Rat]

112. You are setting up a strawman argument I refuse to follow.

:D

Like I said, this is a non-issue since students already have the freedom to start religious clubs at public schools after hours.

I am more intersted in our levees being repaired so we can re-open a few more public schools here in New Orleans. I miss seeing children in my city.

[ContraBass Black]

115. "Why can't religious students go to clubs at religious schools?"

I took that to mean that it would be better if they did that instead. Do I misunderstand?

[Swamp Rat]

118. peace brother

[ContraBass Black]

120. At least tell me if I misread your post or not.

[LittleClarkie]

64. Why form a chess club when you can go to another one at a different

school?

Why separate these kids from their school arbitrarily because they have in interest in something other people don't want to have anything to do with? What, do they have cooties? Might as well separate out the black kids again just to be consistent.

Eh, it's an interest like any other. Why treat it differently?

[Sapere aude]

67. It is not the same. Do you understand why the we have the

establishment clause in the First Amendment? We don't have an anti chess clause because chess players don't want to influence the lives of others.

[ContraBass Black]

72. Yes they do! They want other people to join the club

And learn to play.

[Sapere aude]

109. I guess that's why when I flip the FM dial on my radio I get a dozen or so

chess practitioners preaching to me the need to avoid checkmate! I can get as ridiculous as you.

[ContraBass Black]

113. If chess players want to start radio stations and preach, they just

Have to get the money together. That won't make it illegal or wrong for other people who play chess and want to do it in their school after class to do so.

[LittleClarkie]

149. What about Wiccans

Because the OP was talking about a Wiccan group, not a Christian one. Interesting how everyone jumped to the Christian conclusion.

[Swamp Rat]

69. Well, chess clubs can ostensibly compete with each other.

I would not want to see religious clubs competing over who's god is greater. :D

[Sapere aude]

62. Because my tax dollars pay for it and I don't want my tax dollars

supporting religion. Because the First Amendment to the Constitution forbids it and because there are 99 million other places to have the clubs meet.

No one is preventing anyone from having religious clubs, you just don't need to have them in tax payer funded institutions. You have the whole world to hold your meetings why do you need the public schools?

Because you want to promote religion that is the only reason. The founding father understood the threat here. It is a shame that most Americans don't have their understanding.

[ContraBass Black]

70. Your tax dollars do not pay for it

Unless school owned supplies and school staff on the clock are used. I know of no after school clubs, for any interest, that do that.

A person morally opposed to homosexuality, might demand that the GLBT tolerance club be disallowed because he or she does not want his or her tax dollars to support them. Tough. They have just as much a right as everyone else.

[Sapere aude]

98. My property taxes pay for the school. I even had to pay an impact fee

to the local school district when I bought my property even though I don't have kids. Yes my tax dollars pay for it!

[ContraBass Black]

105. Your tax dollars go to the establishment of the school and public

space. Others have the same opportunity to use that space, and everyone pays the taxes for it.

[Sapere aude]

111. Man you just don't get it do you?

What the hell does this mean to you?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[ContraBass Black]

114. It means that the state will not establish and actively promote

A religion. Allowing Christians or some other faith to meet in a classroom does neither of those.

[Sapere aude]

123. To meet in a tax supported public classroom does that

This is the slippery slope we find ourselves at when you give and inch to a religious person. They are not happy until the can proselytize and push their faith on as many people as they can.

I like the idea of the Constitution protecting me from your religion. I will always fight to support the beliefs of those more enlighten who wrote our Constitution.

This argument is going around in circles and that's what we have the courts for. The religious people want to stack the courts with people who agree with you so that the interpretation of the First Amendment is in favor of their need to force religion on this country.

I'm sure you will deny what I've just said and if I were to believe you I would ask why when you have the whole world out there you have to practice your religion in publicly supported places if not to make a nuisance of yourself?

[ContraBass Black]

139. I will deny what you've just said.

Some people will abuse the opportunity and push their faith on other people, whether those others want to hear it or not. This does not allow or promote that. Some people can demand another inch until they're blue in the face, but allowing them to meet in a classroom does not allow them to do that. My religion in a classroom after school does not threaten you unless it comes spilling out of the club meeting and into your lap, or we force you into the meeting. Neither of those is allowed.

I would choose to be part of a school religious club in addition to or rather than just going to church so that I can discuss faith with other students and we can push each other to be better people. Being a nuisance to you will not serve my interest or betterment, and I would have no intention of doing so. Some people choose to be a nuisance because it makes them feel righteous. There are already rules against that.

As far as reaching out to people, proselytizing has been so polluted by hypocrites, liars, and self-righteous bigots that it is more likely to turn people away than bring them in. Many people serious about their faith choose to work on setting a quiet example, as that does not assault or harass those who are not interested, but may catch the attention of those that are.

[Sapere aude]

103. We do not have an amendment to the Constitution forbidding government

support for gays but we do have an amendment forbidding government support of religion. You don't seem to get that distinction!

[beam me up scottie]

75. It's a non-issue.

You've already been given evidence that such clubs are indeed legal and allowed under the Constitution.

[enki23]

81. eh. "me too" post self removed.

aol!

[ContraBass Black]

90. Feel free to bounce around the thread correcting people.

:D

[donco6]

93. They can and do.

?? Where are you hearing that they cannot?

[Solly Mack]

95. Hello? Fellowship of Christian Athletes... high school club

and despite Young Life's disclaimer (school non-affiliated statement) on it's web site...the clubs meet in schools and they appear in yearbooks as the "So and So High School's Young Life Club"

My high school had both clubs and still do

It also had a Christian Ed building, where classes were offered up as an elective which you did get school credit for

They also prayed before any and all sports events

It is incorrect, not factual, inaccurate and just plain bovine caca to say religious clubs aren't allowed in schools. That's a scare tactic used by politicians and theocrats bent on control..."oh no,they are taking god out of school!"...

god was so in your face at my public high school it felt like an assault

[Swamp Rat]

117. Yes, this is a non-issue

How about fixing our levees in New Orleans so we can re-open public schools in the first place? We have mostly private and religious schools open right now.

[beam me up scottie]

128. Why are you trying to hijack this thread?

This is important, man!

:rofl:

[Swamp Rat]

129. I am NOT a hijacker!

I'm a joker, a toker, and a midnight poster. :D

[beam me up scottie]

135. LOL! LOL! LOL!

Boy did I ever save that one!

[LittleClarkie]

150. It is to the OP

Who happens to be Wiccan, not Christian.

[China_cat]

116. As long as the school itself does not sponsor

them, religious clubs are permitted to use school facilities on the same basis as any other extra-curricular group.

The federal Equal Access Act (“EAA”), 20 U.S.C. § 4071, requires any school that receives federal funds to guarantee equal access to school facilities for all noncurriculum-related student groups, regardless of the religious, political, philosophical, or other content of the speech that occurs at the group's meetings.

[Totallybushed]

119. My understanding is

that school facilities have to be made available to religious groups on the same basis as for non-religious groups. If your school is not doing this, they are in violation of the law.

It may take the threat of a lawsuit to educate them. There are numerous groups that will take such a case on a pro bono, I think the term is, basis. Suggest you get on-line and google around a bit.

[lastliberalintexas]

122. USUALLY BECAUSE OF THE RELIGIOUS GROUPS THEMSELVES

When a school or other public entity creates a public forum (or even a quasi public forum), it then has no right to discriminate in the use of that public forum. By anyone. The school could implement content neutral time, place and manner restrictions, but it could not discriminate on the basis of the speech/conduct involved.

Well, can you guess what that leads to in these cases? Religious people get their knickers in a twist when a group of students want to form a gay and lesbian group or something of that nature and cry foul. The only way for the school to discriminate against the GLBT group is for the school to also discriminate against the religious group by banning ALL groups, since it can't selctively ban one. And in many of the cases of which I am aware, the "good" religious people would rather the schools ban all groups rather than to dare allow a GLBT group to meet on campus. The most notorious situation involved a Utah school, if I recall correctly.

So, religious groups CAN meet on public property and can even be sanctioned as formally recognized student groups. So long as any other student group can be as well. :)

[Hekate]

130. The ACLU defends your right to have a religous club in public school

Please go to the links below and READ THEM. And then, Merciful Mother of Gods, can we PLEASE put this straw man to some better use, like composting the garden?

As a religous liberal and progressive Democrat, I personally have no problem with your child having a Catholic club to pray the Rosary in the cafeteria before classes. But will you and your friends leave my kid alone if she wants to cast a Sacred Circle in the Chemistry lab during lunch hour? Especially if other kids join her?

>crickets chirping<

Hekate
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/16146leg19950412.html
Religion In The Public Schools:
A Joint Statement Of Current Law
(4/12/1995)

The Constitution permits much private religious activity
in and about the public schools. Unfortunately, this
aspect of constitutional law is not as well known as it
should be. Some say that the Supreme Court has declared
the public schools "religion-free zones" or that the law is
so murky that school officials cannot know what is
legally permissible. The former claim is simply wrong.
And as to the latter, while there are some difficult issues,
much has been settled. It is also unfortunately true that
public school officials, due to their busy schedules, may
not be as fully aware of this body of law as they could
be. As a result, in some school districts some of these
rights are not being observed. <more at link>

AND

http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/16146leg19950412.html
Joint Statement of Current Law on Religion in
the Public Schools

November 29, 2001
Dear Member of Congress:
As we have in the past, the Coalition
to Preserve Religious Liberty
vigorously opposes the so-called
"religious speech" constitutional
amendment to be introduced by
Representative Ernest Istook (R-OK).
On June 4, 1998, the House of
Representatives recognized that a
similar "religious freedom"
constitutional amendment by Rep.
Istook would have hurt rather than
helped the cause of religious liberty,
and wisely rejected the amendment.
Nevertheless, Representative Istook
apparently intends again to introduce a
"religious speech" constitutional
amendment for your consideration.

Some have claimed that the tragedy of
September 11 requires reconsideration
of this discredited amendment.
America's multi-faceted response to
terrorism certainly has important
spiritual aspects, but reintroducing
state-sponsored prayer into the public
schools is unnecessary and divisive.

The amendment is unnecessary. We
already have a "religious freedom"
amendment - it is the First
Amendment in our Bill of Rights,.... <more at link>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[diamondsndust]

132. because they would beat sinners with them?

:shrug: .... oh wait, wrong kind of club ... :rofl:

[ContraBass Black]

141. Somebody beat you to it, way upthread.

:D

[diamondsndust]

152. oooops.... I need to learn to read ALL the posts better

:hi:

[tammywammy]

134. They can

In my high school, we had a Bible Study group, an atheist/agnostic group, an Islamic group and also FCA.

The rule for clubs was that you had to get a teacher to sponsor you and as long as you had that, you could have a club. For instance, the photography teacher, who wasn't Islamic, sponsored their group. A couple of years after I graduated they formed (I don't remember the name) a club for gay/lesbian students. There was an uproar in the community (mostly S. Baptist preachers), but the school said "they have a sponsor, so they're here to stay." Also, the literary magazine was an after-school activity (until the year after I graduated), so it followed the same rules.

All clubs could meet before or after school or during lunch.

All clubs were pictured in the yearbook (I was co-editor-in-chief).

BTW, this was in Arlington, Texas (smack in between Dallas & Ft. Worth).

As long as everyone can participate I think it's okay, and if a school tries to exclude one, they must exclude all.

edited to add: The sponsor didn't actively participate in the club, but was just there to make sure you did try and burn down the school. And in the clubs I was in, the teachers had offices, where they could do their own work and keep an eye on us.

[Sir Jeffrey]

138. Schools CAN have religious clubs...

So long as they are student led and student run. There is a very simple reason for this: you don't want teachers involved in religious clubs at school (outside of their supervisory role) because it looks like a state-sponsored endorsement of one faith/sect over another. Anyone claiming otherwise is misinformed.

I know this because I pissed off a bunch of my fellow high schoolers by exposing their legal-but-illegally-ran religious clubs in the school newspaper and I almost got expelled for it. Public school in the Bible Belt is not recommended for non-Christians like me.

[TimeChaser]

140. As long as every religion is allowed to have their own club

what's the big deal?

:shrug:

[LittleClarkie]

144. Considering the OP is a Wiccan

That's all he wanted to know.

[ContraBass Black]

146. Whatever we choose to make it.

That's how instant controversies work.

[kiahzero]

143. They can, and it is legal.

So long as they are student run, and are only allowed under the same terms and conditions as secular clubs, they are allowed to exist. The same terms and conditions also means that if secular clubs are allowed, religious clubs must be allowed as well.

Edit: I realize this post is largely redundant, because someone's already said much the same thing upthread. Oy.

[beam me up scottie]

158. No, by all means, please be redundant.

Apparently nobody has bothered to read the facts.

Reposting them can't hurt.

[applegrove]

147. Optional clubs. Great idea.

[dansolo]

151. Have the club at their church

Why does it have to be a school sponsered club? If the students want to have a religious club, then it should be sponsered by a religious institution.

[TimeChaser]

153. Because some religions don't have official meeting places

[ContraBass Black]

157. And some people like to interact with like-minded people

In the communities where they spend more of their time.

[rainman99]

154. Why can't they have them at home? Or at the church?

The people who try to do it are sent by Falwell.

[LittleClarkie]

156. Falwell sends Wiccans?

The OP is a Wiccan.

I STILL don't have a problem with his religious club. Do you?

[Vidar]

159. They can. Churches rent the auditoriums here on Sunday as well.

And this is a very blue state.

[NYdemocrat089]

160. We have a bible club at our school.

They even get a group photo in the "Teams and Clubs" section of our yearbook. I've never attended a meeting (I've noticed it is pretty much the kids who read "Left Behind" and don't accept things like evolution and the Big Bang Theory. I personally think evolution and the Big Bang were God's way of creating the earth, so I probably woundn't fit in, and I can't stand people who only care about the rapture but forget the basic teachings of Christianity.) but they have a pretty good ammount of people involved. One of our teachers runs it. I don't think anyone has ever complained about them.

[nashville_brook]

162. if not for FCA how would we know who the DORKS are?