Legal question about the Plame case

[warrior1]

Will or can anyone be charged with the original crime of outing Mrs. Wilson and her brass plate company? Or is the indictment of libby all he can do?

And does anyone know what happened to the thread on rove possibly pleading guilty. I can't seem to find it now.

thanks

[warrior1]

1. kick

[warrior1]

2. nothing?

[zbird]

3. Can't find the thread either.

The info was taken from the citizenspook blog. If you want more info, maybe you can check there.

[warrior1]

4. thanks

I'll try that.

[DemReadingDU]

15. I remember that thread

Somebody must have deleted it. But check citizenspook blog (guess that is not a reliable site here on DU)

[KharmaTrain]

5. Stay Tuned...

At Fitzgerald's only press conference on this matter, he refered to someone throwing the "sand in the umpires" eyes...meaning the obstruction...which is what Libby was indicted for was preventing him from finding who had devised the plan to out Ms. Plame and that his "on-going" investigation first has to clear the obstruction so that the real crime can be investigated. Here's a hint...that newspaper clipping of Joe Wilson's article with Crashcart's handwriting on it.

We're going to learn a geat deal...if we haven't already...from the Libby trial. I know people here were hoping to see Rove frog marched but it appears that his lies or near-lies weren't part of the sand in the umpire's eyes and thus he wasn't indicted. It's not just the burden of the prosecutor to find if a crime is committed, but to prove it beyond reasonable doubt...meaning if he's going to press charges, he better be 100% sure that he's going to get a conviction. He felt he had this type of goods on Libby, but not on Rove.

Now why would Rove plead guilty if he hasn't been indicted? Would you plead guilty in a similar situation? A plea bargain? Maybe...but even then, if you look at the pieces of this puzzle that have been disclosed in court briefs and not the speculation on websites, you'll see Rove telling Cooper wasn't the real damage here...it was Libby speaking to Miller and then onto Robert Novak who printed Plame's name.

The wheels of justice move slowly...and right be it so.

[warrior1]

6. So

the thinking here is libby thru the veep outed Mrs. Wilson? I guess I was still holding on to what Joe Wilson had said earlier on, that he was convinced that rove was involved and the frog march statement. Also, I'm still holding on the TO was correct. I still believe rove was indicted. Until I hear different from Mr. Fitzgerald that is.

Thanks for the insight.

[KharmaTrain]

7. Were You In The Grand Jury?

You nor I know nothing more than the one Press Conference Fitzgerald gave. Anything else that's thrown out there is conjecture.

Believe what you want. I believe the Beatles will reunite (despite two members being dead), but we all need something to believe in.

Sorry, not gonna deal with TO anymore. That non-story is of no consequence to the bigger picture of the corruption within this regime.

We'll find out more when Fitzgerald has to play his hand in the courtroom during the Libby trial and now that Rove is off the hook, we'll just have to wait until the trial starts in January.

Even if Rove had been indicted, do you think that would have made him any less dangerous than he already is? He still would have run the fall elections, but just did it from Austin or another location rather than inside the White House.

[warrior1]

8. I never said I was

I used the qualifier, I believe. You need not get nasty about one's beliefs. I wanted this to be a friendly conversation and not a TO bash-fest. I wanted a, if someone knew, answer to the original crime of outing Mrs. Wilson and KharmaTrain did a lot in satisfy that question.

[KharmaTrain]

9. Not Getting Nasty Here...

I just am saying keep the eye on the ball. There was a lot of build-up in the months after the Libby indictment and every time Rove was called to testify. Websites were ready to throw parties and even I got the strong impression that Rove was going to face some kind of charges. It didn't play out that way...since no one other than Mr. Fitzgerald and a select few in his office...know what's really going on here.

Sometimes qualifiers can get hidden into a post that will make a reader come away that there's some type of conspiracy happening here. I'm not trashing TO either as I called it a non-story...not germain to the Fitzgerald inquiry or the bigger picture of this regime's spying, stealing, waging war for profit and destruction of the economy.

This is a Discussion board...or so I thought.

[warrior1]

11. yes this is a discussion board..

I will have to disagree about what you said about TO report, I don't believe it is a non-story. I feel it is germain to what will be happening concerning cheneys role in outing Valerie.

[KharmaTrain]

13. How So?

Got some facts on this? You said you didn't want this to be a flame TO deal, yet you're bringing it up. Yes, it is a non-story...a small website that jumped the gun and built up lots of expectations and now can't figure its way out of its box. If you want to believe this is a story, that's the marvels of an "open society" and DU gives you the forum to express your belief...but that's all it is.

BTW...it is Scotter Libby who was Chenney's #2, not Rove...it was the Libby trial that will bring Chenney's role to light here. Rove worked for boooosh, and while he did have a role in spreading this story and smears of Joe Wilson, that's the grounds for a civil suit by Mr. Wilson, not Mr. Fitzgerald's job.

I could care less about Truthout. I just want justice...done fairly, done properly...not conducted in the media or on websites or message boards.

Peace...

[H2O Man]

14. A few points ....

that are perhaps important, and which both of you are likely to agree on ....

"Libby had three formal titles. He was chief of staff to Vice President Cheney; he was also national security advisor to the vice president; and he was finally an assistant to President Bush. It was a trifecta of positions probably never before held by a single person. Scooter was a power center unto himself, and accordingly, a force multiplier for Cheney's agenda and views."
--Bob Woodward; Plan of Attack; page 48.


"In 1992, when Wolfowitz was an assistant secretary of defense, a startling document leaked from his shop. Defense Planning Guidance had been prepared by Wolfowitz and his deputy, Lewis 'Scooter' Libby, for Secretary Richard Cheney. Barton Gellman of the Washington Post called it a 'classified blueprint intended to help "set the nation's direction for the next century.."..' ."
-- Patrick Buchanan; Where the Right Went Wrong; page 42.

"According to my sources, between March 2003 and the appearance of my article in July, the workup on me that turned up the information on Valerie was shared with Karl Rove, who then circulated it in administrative and neoconservative circles."
-- Joseph Wilson; The Politics of Truth; page 443.

Libby has, for many years, been intimately involved in formulating and advocating the neoconservative agenda that resulted in our nation invading Iraq. Karl Rove has no similar history of foreign policy experience.

Libby had three positions which involved access to and use of classified intelligence on defense matters. He went to CIA HQ several times, often with Cheney, to try to force the false interpretations of data required to support the WMD lies. There is no evidence that Karl Rove was ever involved in this. He lacked the background needed to be able to even carry on a conversation about WMD research.

The OVP ran the OSP and WHIG. OSP was the intelligence arm, while the WHIG did public relations. Libby's positions allowed him to function as an OVP representative (or a "force multiplier for Cheney's agenda and views") in both OSP and WHIG matters. Rove was limited to the WHIG.

Mr. Wilson's comments on the "frog march" were on target. Karl indeed should have legal consequences for his role in the operation to destroy Joseph and Valerie Wilson. We do not know, at this time, why Mr. Fitzgerald decided not to charge Rove.

We do know that Mr. Fitzgerald's pretrial documents show that he is aware that VP Cheney played a far more active, "hands on" role in the operation to discredit Ambassador Wilson than the White House wanted the public to know.

It is interesting to speculate on what may have happened with Rove in early May. It is clearly more valuable to focus on what we know for sure about the role of Libby and Cheney.

[Techno Dog]

19. .

What do you see if anything happening if and when Libby becomes a convicted liar? Do you think a guilty verdict will clear the sand from Fitzgerald's eyes now that he can demonstrate that any exculpatory testimony libby provides for others (think Dick)can't be trusted?

It was that baseball analogy that made me think we would be in a holding pattern until Libby could be eliminated as a reliable witness.

[KharmaTrain]

20. Time Will Tell

It's amazing how many here took their eyes off the ball...all focused on Rove when its been Cheney's office that took the lead in this smear. As H20Man has aptly stated above...and he's been following this issue as closely as anyone here, the trail to who outted Plame has always been out of Chenney's office...and that Libby was either doing the work his boss told him to do, or took "the liberty" on his own to out Ms. Plame...we don't know which or how Fitzgerald will play this. It is interesting that the release of the article with Cheney's chickenscratch on it was called for by Libby's lawyers.

There's a lot of legal questions that will be answered. One, I find most interesting is when Cheney gave that info to Libby...assuming this is how the chain of command worked, is it, was it "declassified" by Cheney waiving his hand and making it so.

Again, if Wilson feels he's been wronged here...a guilty verdict against Libby opens up all types of actions he and his wife could take against Rove and others in a civil case.

Cheers...

[Techno Dog]

21. Thanks

I agree with all of that, I'd only add that the likelihood of Libby taking "the liberty" is unlikely because he could have been thrown under the bus long ago if that was the case and this could have been cleared up.

That's just my opinion.

I like your question as well.

Another question I have is about a possible Wilson civil trial. Is there any legal reason he needs to wait? Would any evidence he was able to get on the record in a civil suit help Fitzgerald?

RFK is going the civil suit route in order to use discovery motions to get diebold on the record iirc. Could Wilson try the same thing?

[KharmaTrain]

22. A Conviction Would Be Big Boost In A Civil Case

The criminal case...especially this one...would take precendence over a civil one. Witnesses would be hard to compell if they're part of the Libby trial and there's evidence Fitzgerald and others may have that could be useful to a civil suit that won't become available until after a verdict.

Also, if Libby is found guilty...even if he's pardoned...this proves there was intent to harm Ms. Plame and would go a long way to impressing a jury in a civil case.

I wish there were more civil cases...its a weapon the Repugnicans used against Clinton...through Larry Klayman. Remember, Paul Jones? That was a civil suit that allowed an individual to sue a sitting President...and Scalia and the Supremes went right along with it. It would have been sweet irony had this tool been used to get subpoena power and discovery in finding out a myriad of crimes this regime has committed.

Cheers...

[Techno Dog]

23. Yes of course

how silly of me, compelling witnesses before any criminal trial IS the reason. Thanks for shaking loose the cobwebs.

:toast:

[OzarkDem]

17. Correction: Rove isn't off the hook

As the purported email/fax/phone call from Fitz indicated - he's decided not to indict Rove for now.

[OzarkDem]

16. I am also

So far I've seen nothing to convince me that Joe Wilson didn't know what he was talking about when he mentioned Rove's complicity. Valerie is a CIA agent - she knows exactly who outed her and how it was done.

[annabanana]

10. If it ever comes to it, they will probably maintain that

Cheney was authorized by Bush to unilaterally declassify Plame's status, hence there was no "outing". The new and improved Supreme Court will agree in a 5-4 decision.

[warrior1]

12. I wouldn't put it past them

to pull this stunt.

[Missy Vixen]

18. We don't know

>Will or can anyone be charged with the original crime of outing Mrs. Wilson and her brass plate company?<

Most of the issues in charging the crime of outing Mrs. Wilson hinge on the fact that it would be nearly impossible to try the case because of national security issues. Supporting information cannot be introduced into open court, according to the analysis I've previously read. There's the issue of "graymail".

The indictment of Libby was narrowly drawn to reflect crimes that could be tried, a reasonable expectation of a conviction, and the effort to charge others involved in the same crimes as a result. To quote my mother, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Of course, H2OMan is the expert in these matters, I defer to him.

Julie