So who forgot to tell me that this is Defeatist Saturday?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

I have never seen so many angst-ridden, hopeless posts here at DU. Here we are coming into the election season with a real shot at taking back our country, and people are dropping here like flies, with their carcasses littering the bandwidth.

You know, I'll say this for the right wing. They might have their heads up their butts, but they always see the promise for the future. Granted, it might be a skewed vision at times, but they want to believe that things will get better. Which is one reason why they drink the Bushco Koolaide so readily. Sure we want to be realistic, but we are becoming cartoon versions of what they think of us...crying in our beer, giving up.

Did I take a wrong turn somewhere? This is the party of FDR and John F. Kennedy? Of Martin Luther King and Coretta Scott King?

Or are we drinking our own Koolaide? Remember, the folks in the Jim Jones Temple where the metaphor comes from, were all feeling hopeless and defeated. A thousand suicides in one swoop. I wonder if they were reading DU?

[porphyrian]

1. I'm sorry, you'll need to give up if you're going to post today.

;)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

2. LOL

I guess I didn't get the memo.

[BlooInBloo]

6. LOL! Don't let the doom&gloomers get to ya!

Somewhere around here, there's a picture of a kittykat chasing a bear up a tree - go look at that n giggle a lil bit mebbe!

:)

[SPKrazy]

3. Give Up Grannie!

It's all over!
:sarcasm:

I guess I didn't get the memo either


:rofl:

[OKNancy]

4. I generally take an optimistic view

as you can see by my signature line. Believe me, I get down when reading DU and sometimes I want to write: SNAP OUT OF IT! But I don't.

Thanks for your post. Work, write, vote and don't make excuses for losses or setbacks. Sometimes our candidates just suck, sometimes a voting area is overwhelmingly Republican and there is no sense in getting upset over defeats there, and sometimes Bush will get positive press.

In 2001, when I first joined DU I wrote a post called "Liberal thought always wins in the end"
I still feel that way.

[Phoonzang]

5. I haven't noticed...

What was the source of the pessimism? Was because Bush's poll numbers have jumped nearly 10 points because that idiot in Iraq was killed?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

7. I don't know, but I've never seen it so bad.

He didn't jump at ALL in Rasmussen. That suggests a blip to me.

[Robbien]

9. No jump in polls seen, it is about the bad bills & events this week

Specter's bill giving amnesty to Bush for breaking the law and spying on your calls.

The House voting to give the internet to the telcos.

The Appeals Court saying it is now going to be okay to tap both the internet and telephones without court orders.

Having GOPers spew vile and hatred and the MSM gives them the okay to do it.

Our country is murdering and torturing Iraqis and the American public says so what.

and so on and so on
. . .

and its freezing outside and its June.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

14. I wish it were a bit cooler here

but that will NEVER happen.

[omega minimo]

8. Aw shoot TG-- I thought it was Satruthday

The other interesting "something's in the air" today is about truth and lies-- we're all bombarded by it, know it's a huge challenge-- and not a few threads have popped up on the subject.

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." --George Orwell

[mdmc]

10. I posted a very optimistic OP today after I got back

from petitioning (in NYS we need to get 15% of registered dems in a voting district to sign a nominating petition to get a candidate on the primary and general election).

It got _______.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

13. I guess it just didn't have the right

tone...you know....

defeat

agony

loss

hopelessness

running away

[mdmc]

24. actually, i welcomed a new du'er

that is now tombstoned... i think that is why it was deleted.

[undeterred]

11. Not for me!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1400293

[marions ghost]

12. I'd rather

see a diversity of opinion than one-size-fits-all.

I'd say there are plenty of rightwingers who are not seeing the "promise for the future" right now. They're fragmenting all over the place. Nothing worth emulating there.

Can't you be a little more tolerant of those in the battered Liberal legions who get down at times? It's hard being abused on a regular basis. The things going on these days could make the most starry-eyed Pollyanna into a bitter cynic. It's possible to offer encouragement and hope without scoffing at people.

Those who don't care or feel it's completely hopeless are not posting on DU.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

15. I know it is part of the human condition to moan and gnash one's teeth

and I do it, too. And we see it a lot here on DU and I usually chalk it up to the poster's age. I think the younger one is the more angst he/she feels. I think that angst tends to come back with more advanced age. At least that is my observation and of course there are exceptions.

But I have never seen so many posts advocating giving up. I would say we should all be tolerant of diverse opinion, but I'm not sure we should be too tolerant of that. It grows like a cancer and spreads. Give up. Run away. Just let it happen.

If enough of us feel that way, we're done for.

[marions ghost]

28. I don't see any posts advocating giving up

There is a big difference between voicing a pessimistic thought or fear, and "advocating" giving up.

How to deal with a legitimate expression of pessimism or fear? First, let it stand. Hear it. Smug put-downs have a way of silencing people and pushing them away. These people do not have a "cancer that spreads." They are looking for validation for their fears from others, which can be a path to greater strength. The vast majority are not negativity-spreading trolls. We who for whatever reason are more resilient at this point, need to hear and help the fearful, the weary, the discouraged. Because there are a LOT of legitimate reasons to be depressed in these uncertain times. I don't think the young have more angst than anyone else, not in my neighborhood anyway. I see a lot of parents who are past the rosy early childhood phase and now are seriously worried about their kids futures. This is no overly-dramatic angst of youth on the part of the parents.

If you have something to give in this area--ie. positivism, courage, hope, inspiration etc. then do that by all means, but kindly hold the blanket criticism, the scoffing. This will backfire. Not everyone can be where you are, secure in your life and views and relatively certain of outcomes. For years--decades now--rational progressive viewpoints have been trampled and the public in general has been serially abused by the American government. Pessimism is a natural response to this unforgiveable state of affairs. We have been jerked around so much as to show symptoms of battering syndrome. I have friends over 40 who are so numbed by it all they can barely put their toes in political waters at this point. The truth of it is that we have a hard road ahead yet, and it will test the toughest among us. We must be able to throw the lifeline to others. Cutting people loose is not the way to go.

Just my 2 cents. In hopes of greater understanding of our liberal diversity.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

30. I respect your opinion

but sadly could not disagree with you more.

The main post I am referring to (no link) was about dividing the country into two countries: one for the right, one for the left. It was all about just giving up on the country.

Pessimism begets pessimism. If you ever venture onto any RW sites, it is the thing they make fun of the most. Doom and gloom and giving up.

Now when you say to throw the lifeline to others, I agree. And part of that is encouraging them NOT to give up. I don't WANT to cut them loose as they head for Canada, England, New Zealand...because down THAT road is defeat.

I ponder a lot about the mental and emotional differences between left and right, and to me, this is the biggie. We cave.

[marions ghost]

35. I read that post about splitting up the country...

I didn't take it literally but saw it more as a discussion of red vs. blue, south vs north, fascist theocracy vs progressive democracy, urban vs rural, rich vs poor, and "cultural divergences." ALL of these dichotomies have basis in fact. There were some very good points made. I did not see it as a tirade about "giving up on America" and all the negativity you're attaching to it. This is the link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1397923&mesg_id=1397923

I think we have to face and discuss the bipolar nature of this country in very direct terms. Of course our bipolar condition has to a large degree been manufactured for purposes of exploitation. And so how much of this dichotomy is hard and fast and unchangeable at this point is debatable. And we should be talking about those shades of grey, not insisting on allegiances. ("If you're not with us you're with the terrorists" thinking is very Republican). I'm also interested in motivating others to get involved, because I KNOW we have the numbers to fight the juggernaut--but there is a significant group that will be turned off if the message is too strident.

I too am very interested in the mental & emotional differences between the left and right. Social psychology in this area is fascinating. You say "we cave." My question is why do you think so? And is it just a matter of cowardice, as you imply, or is there more to it? Are liberals used and abused because their "role" as a group is to be conciliatory and deferential (much like the 'wife' in a traditional relationship?) Do we put up with too much--martyrishly? Do we need more fighting spirit (not everyone wants to be a fighter--this website naturally attracts fighters (the liberal types who have truly given up don't post on DU). Sincere questions. I'm not sure of the answers. I am always suspicious of blanket statements like "we cave..." --but I'd like to hear your explanation for saying that.

Whatever far rightwing bloggers make fun of should not be something we worry much about. Often they make fun of our strengths. It doesn't matter. Half the time they look silly doing it. They don't make as much mileage out of that as it seems IMO. Everything in their simplistic world boils down to Ted Kennedy & Bill & Hill Clinton are the 3 manifestations of Satan on earth. Osama and Saddam aren't nearly as scary to them (you can kill them).

Of course nobody should be giving up yet...but I don't think most people here are advocating that. Cheers:)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

38. You have a lot of wise points in your post

and I agree with most, especially about the exploitation of our "bipolar" social order.

I believe the Democrats are the feminine of the two political sides. Notice I am not saying the more cowardly, because 1) women are not cowards and 2) if you ever look at the breakdown of who has served and who has not in well-known Dems and Republicans, it is very skewed towards the Dems. But Democrats see nuance, attempt to use tact, negotiate, mediate, and don't do a lot of black or white thinking. The other side...not so much. Very, very male. Take charge, don't give up, damn the torpedos full speed ahead, etc.

Examples? Well, I think Kerry caved early after the election. I think he caved when he did not take on the Swift Boaters. I see the Dems cave all the time in Congress. They make a few noises and then they back off. They caved on both Supreme Court appointments.

THE FOLLOWING ARE EXCERPTS FROM THREE THREADS ON SATURDA

The beast is beyond all political control from within. As much as we "have to believe"
poltiical action within the system works, it has never worked, never, for
freeing people from oppression... only rebellions work, and they come out
of political collapse, when people finally pull their heads out of the clouds
and come to their senses.

We are all going down in the coming thousand year depression. We don't rejoice in the evil that others have done. We want to save the innocents and prepare for the worst.

Once the petro-dollar is kicked to the curb, we'll have conditions resembling the third world in this country. Better get used to it. The tide has already turned, and dumbya was surely the last nail in the coffin of the US economy.

... we cannot fix this mess until it is an ash heap. It's not that difficult a concept to understand. I'm not "cheering" for it, I merely see it as inevitable, and am looking for the silver lining.

America will have to hit rock bottom before the people wake up and clean up this unholy mess that's been made of our government.

In this "dark time" in America...the darkest in my lifetime, we seem devoid of those voices who can cut through the evil in DC and Wall Street and the wickeness of the voices like Ann Coulter who are out there spreading their vision of an America ruled by corporatists where "amber waves of genetically modified wheat, corn and switch grass" reign. Where the "purple mountain majesty" are harvested for "clean burning coal," where the "fruited plain" is sprayed with chemicals when it isn't being ravaged by tornados or drought from the destruction we've wreaked on it since the Great Environmental Movement of the 60's and 70's was destroyed by the Corporate evil doers.

And what about England? Belgium? Switzerland? Denmark? I'm not sure America is worth singing about any more. I might sing a line or two once I can see a doctor without going broke.

Well, once upon a time Charles Manson was a beautiful little baby....and you know the rest. America has now gone down that same kind of road. Nothing to love here anymore....sad.

"What are YOU doing to help bring back the beauty that once was America?" I'm looking at it through a wine induced haze. Works for me.

There's a certain freedom in letting go of all expectations, a kind of detachment.

used to love this country....I'm not so sure I can anymore.

I can honestly say that I am no longer proud to be an American

No. I am totally cynical these days and wish I could go somewhere is this wide world that wasn't infected by the disease that has overtaken this country. Canada is beginning to toe the line. Australia and the UK have already succumbed. I do not wish to be a part of this debacle anymore.

I used to be patriotic that way, NO MORE

Symbols, songs and other patriotic totems evoke disgust in me now, sadness, melancholy.

The brief, very brief, time that America as an ideal existed, it was banished when the founders erased the call for the end of the slave trade. The rot set in early.

Listen to Neil Young, "Living With War" Can you still sing the words to "America, the Beautiful" and mean it?

I hate what the people have become. Everyone is out for themselves, no sense of community. Road rage, adults having fistfights over little league games, HUGE view-blocking POS gas-guzzler SUVs EVERYWHERE and just selfishness, selfishness and more selfishness.

I have a friend at work from Nigeria who was born and raised in England. His kids are about to be teenagers and he is thinking about raising them in one of those countries instead of here.

Personally I wouldn't mind moving to Britain, New Zealand, or Switzerland-but immigration to those countries is very, very tough-especially without a fat bank account or unique skills.

There were something like 50,000 Italians and Eastern Europeans going the other way one year early in the 20th century. Somehow I don't remember seeing that in the history textbooks I read in high school. Just another way ignorance feeds nationalism.

Well, the Confederacy/Red States would be a frikkin' third-world country,
and all the best universities, cultural institutions, etc would be in "Blue-land" or whatever you want to call it. But wait, the Dumbfuckistanians don't like any of that intelleckshual, elitist bullshit anyhow.



I'm fine with becoming part of The United States of Canada.

which divides things into "Red"/"Blue" rather than South/North. D.C is blue, very blue.
So, "New America" or "The United States of Canada" gets John Hopkins (plus all of the Ivy League, U. Of Chicago, Stanford, MIT, etc.)
Dumbfuckistan/Jesusland gets Ole Miss, plus others mentioned here. Symphony orchestras? World-class museums? Afraid Dumbfuckistan wouldn't fare very well here. But that's elitist intelleckshual stuff anyway. Them muzeeums have too many nekkid picshers in 'em, and that offends Jeebus. (The art museum in Oklahoma City actually has little warning signs posted at the entry to each gallery that contains nudity, and sometimes only semi-nudity. No lie.)

A single union is no longer possible. The factions must be separated into unions of their own with an amendment to the United States Constitution.

I mean, really, if you look at some the issues it was just a bunch of old white men who were pissed off because they had to pay taxes.

Oh, to have stayed in Britain, where people are, comparatively, sane

Do you see a solution EVER to any of it? Because I don't. Not with the whack-jobs that have bought and paid for and now control the government and the media!


******

If you have read this far, I truly admire you. There are almost 90K members of DU, or there have been. A certain proportion of them are going to be negative..it happens. I'm not always so pollyannaish myself.

But I have given a lot of thought to how I am spending my time, lately, and what is best for me and for my own admittedly fragile mood and this just isn't the place. I have learned a lot from DU over the past year, but it is time to move on. I don't think the Democratic party in its present form, as represented here on DU, is the place for me. I have strong love for my country and I know the sacrifices my ancesters made to get here, to stay here, to thrive. Many died for America and what she represented. I am not ready to throw that away.

Happily, this leave-taking is tacked onto a dead thread and no one will read it because I am not leaving with anger ... just realized it isn't the place for me. I won't let the door smack me on the way out, either. God speed to all of you. It's been interesting. Feel free to private email me because I won't be checking the discussion boards anymore.

T-G

[marions ghost]

39. sounds like your mind was already made up

Tallahassee Grannie. There have been several positive replies to your viewpoint in this thread...the majority...so I don't quite understand why you would feel unsupported. Everyone on DU is "running away??" I'm confused, as I find it quite the opposite--ie. people who are "running away" do not read message boards and blogs desperately trying to figure out the truth about our current situation beyond the disinformation doled out by the mainstream media. Are some at DU too much like the Democratic leaders who have let you down by caving in? Is that the point you are making? While I agree that some Dems in govt have indeed let us down, there are still a number who are in there fighting hard. Like you said, the liberal philosophy isn't working very well in a corrupt environment. Feelings of powerlessness typically lead to cynical views. It is one way to keep sane in a world that seems ever more insane. But anyway I thought there was a basis for a good discussion about this. Sorry you are so bummed out.

[Ladyhawk]

37. Thanks, marions ghost.

On the days when I'm feeling upset, I prefer to be honest.

[draft]

16. dark times since 12-12-00

fyi

[DainBramaged]

17. Well let's just see here

As of 9 AM this morning all four branches of government are still Puke controlled. The war in Iraq will soon claim it's 2500 victim. Nearly 20000 have been seriously wounded. The level of poverty has never been higher, and the wage disparity between the elite and the working class is impossible to fathom. Jesus is the National icon, and our every move and conversation is being recorded. Oh, and when the ice caps are done melting, the line from Richmond to Rochester will probably be the new shore line.

I'd say we have some real hope in November to maybe take back the House, but nearly everything else I listed above will not change. 12 years of pounding without results makes many weary, and our lives must at one point move on as best as possible. When you listen to our leadership, and you realize the DLC and DCCC IS going to control the election in 2008, what is there to hope for other than the end of this Bush era?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. And that is JUST THE POINT

Hope and WORK for the end of the Bush era.

If you give up, it won't happen.

Maybe that's why the Republicans keep winning. They never give up.

And maybe that's why WE keep losing. We do.

[DainBramaged]

19. Right, let me write that down for future reference

[TallahasseeGrannie]

21. Embroider it on a pillow

or tattoo it on your chest.

Quitters lose.

[draft]

20. Maybe that's why the Republicans keep winning.

Dems let them get away with stealing elections :think:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

22. Indeed

[Zynx]

23. When FDR campaigned in 1932, he didn't pound the table about how

lousy things were, and they were worse then than they are now. He campaigned on a message of hope. I think that's the OP's point and I agree with it. We all know things are bad, but dwelling on it is like a depressed alcoholic dwelling on about his crappy life and how he lost his job and his wife just left him to the point he commits suicide.

[DainBramaged]

25. When the leadership changes give me a call until then

all we have is status quo, period. I just watched Rahn Emmanuel on THIS WEEK give broken, monotone responses to George Stephanopoulos on the state of the country, no emotion, no feeling, while Tom Reynolds had this stupid shit eating grin on his face and got the last word in;

"Democrats are for higher taxes and bigger government".

Every time these DLC/DCCC talking heads get on the Sunday shows, they forget that the Reich ALWAYS hits them with that sentence, and instead of countering with "Republicans have created the biggest government in history and have shifted the tax burden to the middle class" early on, they blather without emotion and misses the opportunity to neutralize them.

High emotion wins oatmeal loses.

[Zynx]

26. The Democrats should not be afraid to say we believe government can help.

If we don't believe that, what the hell is the uniting theme of the Democratic Party?

[sweetheart]

27. The suffereing is not great enough

As much as all the talk, people are still comfortable "enough", and
the conditions that brought in FDR, that incredible strife and threat
of a revolution, are the conditions that are not what we see today.

If the republicans can stay in power, we can have a new constitution
after they destroy the nation state (they can't destroy the "country",
people will feel hardship, and regroup). If their objective has been
to totally bankrupt the nation state, that it no longer have the
legitimacy to further any adgenda, then they're right on target, but
they mistake, it will take down their corporate distopia as well.

I'm an optomist who realizes that in my entire life, i've never seen
my politics ever spoken or legislated in the US. Realpolitik tempers
optimism. The constitution has failed utterly. It is unenforceable,
and no agreement holds us together except birth, family and residence.

The democrats, last time they were in power, stepped up the drugs war
and were just as much evil for persons i know than the pukes, so its
hardly inspiring... oh boy, we can win back some ground for other
people to fuck us, who wear the same t-shirts we do.

I'll be donating funds to the democratic party, to marijuana policy
project, and i'll support whatever candidates are put up, but really,
the pollyanna is unfounded. Murderers are using your taxes to murder
people, and you are an accessory to murder. 300 million people are
accessories to murder and only a small tiny percentage is remotely
disgusted or even aware how low its all become.

For our great collusion in the project of emprisoning the poor and
murdering dark skinss all the planet, what a great constitution its
become. The dems better dang well take back the house this fall,
or the american people are in for a big hurtin'. There are no more
excuses.

[marions ghost]

36. tough words

but fair. We are facing a test of our continuation as (anything resembling) a democracy, a test of the constitution-- a test of whether the American people really have any power at all.

[shadowknows69]

29. You have good news? I'd love to hear it

n/t

[TallahasseeGrannie]

32. You should know better than to challenge me like that.

Here's some good news:

1. Two major announcements out of Alaska regarding the gubernatorial race, and both of them help the Democrats' prospects in November. First, Gov. Frank Murkowski (R) announced he would seek reelection to a second term. And second, former Gov. Tony Knowles (D) announced he would seek his third term.

2. ly a day after leaving office, former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay was anything but off the hook among Texas Democrats at their state convention Saturday.

"If the sun seems a little brighter today; if our step seems a little bouncier; if life seems a little better today, there's a good reason for it. For the first day in 22 years, Tom DeLay is not a member of Congress," U.S. Rep. Chet Edwards, D-Waco, said as the crowd cheered wildly.

3.Democrats are making inroads across the U.S., including in Arizona, formerly Barry Goldwater country.

As the New York Times reported: "As they survey a political landscape that looks increasingly favorable to them, Democrats are suddenly focusing on Arizona, once-hostile territory that could prove crucial to their hopes of recapturing the Senate this year.

4. ANGER AT BUSH COULD K-O REPUBLICANS

If you don't feel so lonely any more as someone who opposes President Bush, there's a good reason.

As the Washington Post reports: "Intense and widespread opposition to President Bush is likely to be a sharp spur driving voters to the polls in this fall's midterm elections, according to strategists in both parties, a phenomenon that could give Democrats a turnout advantage over Republicans for the first time in recent years.

Polls have reflected voter discontent with Bush for many months, but as the election nears, operatives are paying special attention to one subset of the numbers. It is the wide disparity between the number of people who are passionate in their dislike of Bush vs. those who support him with equal fervor.

5. Good News for Democrats
John Zogby has begun looking at 2006 state races for governor and US Senate seats. With the elections still more than a year away, it would be dangerous to attach too much significance to the outcomes of his polling. Still, one is always heartened by polls that support one's desires, so I am happy to point out that he is predicting the 5 or 6 gubernatorial seats will flip from the GOP to the Dems. The Senate polls are a little less clear, with a small net pickup for the Dems.

6. Good News for Democrats
John Zogby has begun looking at 2006 state races for governor and US Senate seats. With the elections still more than a year away, it would be dangerous to attach too much significance to the outcomes of his polling. Still, one is always heartened by polls that support one's desires, so I am happy to point out that he is predicting the 5 or 6 gubernatorial seats will flip from the GOP to the Dems. The Senate polls are a little less clear, with a small net pickup for the Dems.

I didn't include the links, but just google a phrase and you'll get there.


Now I am tired so I am out of here for a bit.

T-Grannie signing off

[shadowknows69]

33. Thanks Grannie I needed that

that actually did cheer me up.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

34. I'm glad

something you really do lose the forest when you concentrate too much on the trees. (or in this case, the things crawling from under the rocks)

[stepnw1f]

31. trolls (nt)