This has to be said - what happened in Hadithia is not for

[Joe for Clark]

any of us to pass judgement on. Those kids were sent into the line over and over. Everybody breaks at some point. They broke. One too many trips into combat.

That responsibility lies many times further up the line of command than those kids.

They send someone into an impossible situation and than not expect an impossible result???

It is wrong to hold those kids ultimately responsible - 18-19-20 year olds.

The people that ordered them there are responsible. We are responsible for ever allowing that war to happen.

This makes me so sick to my stomache - that whole war.

Those kids maybe pulled the trigger - but we allowed it to happen. We have to fix this.

This had to be said - I feel better now.

Joe

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Fuck that.

They murdered innocent men, women, and children.

Hang the lot of them.

[Generic Other]

4. I must concur with this assessment

After WW2 we did not show mercy to those who committed war crimes. We must hold ourselves to the same standards we would hold our enemy to.

[Doctor Venmkan]

25. Why don't we wait and see EXACTLY what happened before...

...we start building the gallows? :eyes:

If indeed these soldiers went on a rampage, killing innocents for the hell of it? Then hanging's almost too good for 'em...maybe a firing squad?

...BUT...

How many of you 'holier-than-thou' types that are screaming for their blood have EVER BEEN IN COMBAT?

I haven't, so I can accept that we don't know HOW living that kind of life can FUCK YOU UP!

For pete's sake, they spend every waking moment of the day, every day, in fear of being shot or blown up! That HAS to leave someone on edge! And if the stress of it was what made them 'snap,' then their punishment MUST be tempered with that in mind.

Last time I checked a man was innocent until proven guilty.

[alarimer]

51. then they are not safe to walk the streets back home either then

if they are capable of such monstrosities.

[LostinVA]

152. Your assessment is wrong

I have two still living grandfathers who fought in WWII, one landed in Normandy, fought in the Battle of the Bulge, etc. He talks about how some GIs murdered unarmed WEhrmacht, or raped and stole from FRench, Dutch, and German women.... it disgusted him.

The other grandfather as in the Navy in the Pacific. He says alot of same things.

AS does my cousin who was in Nam. My BIL. And others I know and trust.

Freaking out and shotting the occupants in a car that won't stop is understandable. THis? Inexcusable.

We are not Nazis,a nd I will NEVER make excuses for the slaughter of innocents.

"Guilty until proven innocent"? Think all those little kids were running around attacking Marines? They were EXECUTED.

[AlamoDemoc]

7. You nailed it Bornaginhooligan...I have nothing else to add to this post

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. There's one thing I did want to add.

This OP does a major disservice to every American who's ever gone overseas and been in equally stressful situations and have made the decision not to murder innocent men, women, and children.

[AlamoDemoc]

17. Hear Hear!

[Imagevision]

121. Hadithia wasn't unique, if Time Mad hadn't expose it we still wouldn't

have known. Since all the top brass is now stating they've launched a full investigation? -- what progress has been made since the day of the incident, not what has come forward since Time magazine exposed what truly appears to be a cover-up from the get-go!

[stepnw1f]

102. Actually .. yes

a great disservice.

[Jigarotta]

126. yes. absolutely yes.

NO EXCUSE!

[LostinVA]

153. What I said in Post #25

[Clark2008]

13. They did and should be held accountable... BUT

all Joe for Clark is saying is that they're kids and the stress they probably have been under is more than I'm sure either you or I have ever been (and I was a single Mom with no child support coming in from the ex for five years - pretty damn stressful).

These soldiers should do the time for the crime IF they cannot prove they were psycho as a result of too many rotations without rest of leave or aid of professional psychologists, etc.

However, the chain of command - notably war-on-the-cheap Rummy, also should be held to the fire for the decisions he's made to keep these weakened men in combat.

[flyarm]

73. Elie Wiesel says it best in the book "NIGHT"....

" Those who kept silent yesterday will remain silent tommorrow"

and to quote from Francois Mauriac in the forward of the book..quoting Elie Wiesel..

Never shall i forget that night, the firstnight in camp, that turned my life into one long night seven times sealed.

Never shall i forget that smoke.

Never shall i forget the small faces of the children whose bodies i saw transformed into smoke under a silent sky.

Never shall i forget those flames that consumed my faith forever.

Never shall i forget the nocturnal silence that deprived me for all eternity of the desire to live.

Never shall i forget those moments that murdered my god and my soul ad turned my dreams to ashes.

Never shall i forget those things , even were i condemed to live as long as god himself.


Never.


i am sorry our soldiers were sent into a war of lies..i cry almost daily about it..and that I could not stop it..

but we have the Holocaust as an example of what human beings should never ever do..if their lives lost do nothing else, but live as an example of what human beings should never ever do ..ever...then they died in vain..

Francois Mauriac says this ..." At that time we knew nothing about the Nazi extermination methods. And who could have imagined such things!
But these lambs torn from their mothers, that was an outrage far beyond anything we would have thought possible."


these soldiers of our know better..and the example of the murder of 6 million is not unknown by our soldiers..it lives in our every consience..or it should.

when a mother gets on her knees and begs for her 3 yr. old childs life in front of our soldiers and they shoot that woman and child in the brain ..at point blank range..i want that person to be held accountable for murder.

there is no other recourse!

ever!

when we choose to ignore history we are doomed to repeat it..

not in my name!

fly

[Zhade]

84. Absolutely.

NT!

[Tom Rinaldo]

108. Self Delete. Post made in wrong place. n/t

[nolies32fouettes]

104. learn from the Vietnam protest! in a warzone things/minds break

these kids can't tell enemies from friends. The few that did this should pay a price and any leaders who covered it up should pay a price; however, we can not spit on any of our soldiers who did what the W.H. told them to do.

Liberals (young & old) LEARNED from the antiwar protesters of the 70's.

[Jigarotta]

137. can't tell enemies from friends?

how old were some of the kids with a bullet hole in their head?
how threatening were they?

FUCK!!! it's insanity! when babies are Enemies!!!!

someone get me off this planet, I'm so damned sick of all this twisted shit.

[LostinVA]

151. This argument didn't fly after WWII or My Lai, and it doesn't know

They didn't have to do it, many -- probably most -- wouldn't have done it.

They truly are murderers, and dishonor the uniform they wear.

[darkism]

154. Seconded, except for the "hang the lot of them" part.

I don't call for or celebrate the death of anybody. Not Zarqawi, not these guys, nobody.

[maxsolomon]

2. how did i allow it to happen?

because i failed to stop the war from occurring?

because i failed to stop bush from assuming office?

both of these things are beyond my control. OBL used a similar logic to justify 9-11 - we deserved it because our tax dollars support israel's oppression of the palestinians.

i reject your premise.

[Joe for Clark]

29. Thats right.

You ever been on a team that loses - and maybe you played well - but the team loses - so you are a loser.

That is where we are.

Our team just lost.

Joe

[maxsolomon]

49. well ok

i guess

i didn't 'allow' it to happen, though. i didn't form the team, and i never got on the field.

[flyarm]

75. or the eviil stole it from us!! i believe that is what happened

the evil planned and stole the win..and with that win they have transformed our nation into an evil empire...it will take all of us to educate others before it is to late to take our country back..and we will have to fight for her i fear!!

fly

[Jigarotta]

3. then you must excuse murder of any kind

as different people handle different 'stresses' in different ways.

no way.
They are personally responsible for their conduct. no way there is an excuse to shoot kids in head. no way.

[Joe for Clark]

39. Now personally I have never been in the position.

But I bet you parents may have. Maybe your brothers.

Mine have.

If you put someone in a situation that would crack anyone and then they crack, would you even be surprised??

SO who is really responsible - the person following the order into the line or the bastards that knew he would crack following that order??

If they pulled the trigger there is a responsibility - but the greater responsibility lies with those that knowingly ordered those kids forward, knowing the probable results of such an order.

They are the real problem - and we allowed them to be "elected".

Its like that.

Joe

[flyarm]

78. our soldiers know their jobs..they know the rules of warfare..

they know the responsiblity as a human ...

there are no excuses..none..no one can order them to murder an innocent child!

and no 5 month old and no 3 year old are the enemy! ever!

fly

[Joe for Clark]

85. Man, you cannot train ANYBODY to what really happens

in a fight.

They couldn't be a target - but would they be any less dead if they were siting next to someone who was and your weapon was set on automatic??

They don't have to be a target to get caught in a firefight.

joe

[Jai4WKC08]

90. I'm sorry, Joe, you're wrong

If what is alleged has happened, these guys weren't in a fight. The fight was over. They broke into homes and murdered people. Children. It was cold-blooded and pre-meditated. There can be NO excuse for that. And they must be prosecuted according to the law.

I agree with you that it is the administration who has put them into a situation, with inadequate support, returning tours, not doing the high-level things to make their success possible, where it should be expected that these things will happen.

But that does not absolve the marines if they committed murder.

[Joe for Clark]

97. Wow - I see what your saying,

I sure do not absolve them - far be it from me to absolve anybody.

But kids do get killed in a fight -

And people break if you put them in a line for too long.

Maybe they had a reason, maybe not. But the admin people that left them in the line so long -

No excuses.

Joe

[Jigarotta]

141. those kids were Executed. no fight here at all. nt

[flyarm]

111. no more excuses!! my dad was on guam left by Mac Arthur

to die..he went in with the seabees..and went in before the marines..he went in with around 200 only a few came out..he never killed a child..and he had pictures of many americans head that had been cut off with the penis's in their mouths in piles...do not tell me about the stress..

my dad was 16 when his dad signed him up as his oldest son..as my grandfathers ship was the uss arizona in WWI..and because my grandpa left his eye on the Arizona they would not let him re sign up the day pearl harbor sunk his ship..yes my dad was 16 on dec 29th that year..and my grandpa signed my dad up..

so save it..

my dad was left on guam to die..and he survived eating bugs and coconuts..for 6 months...

so bullshit is bullshit..

and murder is murder!

fly

[Jigarotta]

139. big fucking Megaphone NO on that one.

there may be military orders and then there is the personal soul.

big fucking Megaphone NO on that one. deux.

we are talking about Shooting Babies In The Head.

[DELUSIONAL]

5. They are NOT kids

they had the power of life and death and they CHOOSE DEATH.

They deserve exactly what they did to the babies.

[maxsolomon]

8. i disagree that they deserve death

no one deserves that. and the combat stress is a mitigating factor.

if everyone up the chain of command all the way to president presenile dementia gets 20 years in leavenworth with john walker lindh (who didn't do shit), that would satisfy me.

[Joe for Clark]

55. But they are just kids.

Ever know an 18 year old that was not just a dumb kid??

Joe

[Jigarotta]

133. I take exception at this 'kid' thing as well.

sounds like america sends children to fight in wars.

[LostinVA]

155. Thank you!

They are not kids.

[LaurenG]

6. No that's not an excuse for cold blooded murder

We must all be held accountable for our choices. They chose to kill innocent people and now they will have to face the consequences. It's a sad, sad time we live in when we lose our integrity by making excuses instead of facing up to what we've done.


edit: spelling

[Clark2008]

18. I don't think Joe is saying they shouldn't be held accountable

what he's ADDING is that we're all, as a nation, responsible for this because it's being done in our name - whether we voted for the fucktards or not. We should be rising to our feet and ousting these son of a bitches, but the majority of the damn country is too busy watching American IDLE to be fucking productive.

Yes, I accept that it's on my shoulders, too. I should have convinced more people in my home state (Tennessee) to vote for their homegrown boy, Al Gore, but, hell, I never realized so many people were so fucking dumb.

[LaurenG]

26. If we go back to the election I'm not sure we did lose it

I understand what you are saying but I didn't read Joe that way.

I have power only over myself, as did they. I realize after these last 4 years that nothing I believe means anything to anyone but me anyway.


I metaphorically screamed as loud as I could and still it wasn't enough. :shrug: :cry:

[Joe for Clark]

58. You know what the difference is??

You screamed. A lot of us screamed.

Maybe it takes four years in the United States for that to bear fruit.

But you did your part.

Too much of this country didn't.

Joe

[Terran1212]

9. I pass judgement on the top officials

The Bushes and Cheneys of the world who start wars for this stuff to happen in.

[DemonFighterLives]

53. Yes the PNAC gang belongs on the gallows

And the guys who performed for them need to answer all questions.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

10. Your compassion

is admirable but misplaced. They know the value of life; they know women and children are not the enemy.

Yes, it happens in war. It always does. War is ugly. And this is one reason why. But we have to keep fighting it.

[arcane1]

16. actually, we have to STOP fighting it

before MORE innocents die a bloody mangled death

[TallahasseeGrannie]

144. I mangled that last sentence

I mean we have to keep fighting that need we have to kill. Not the war in Iraq. We need to get the hell out of there.

[arcane1]

150. ah ok, that makes sense

we're in agreement there :)

[danalytical]

38. Well actually they don't know women and children aren't the enemy

Ever watch "To War" on discovery times? Best objective look I've yet to see. Those soldiers have no idea who is killing them. They know the civilians know who it is, but they can't do anything about it. And yes women and children are killing our soldiers along with the men. It sucks, and those people may even be justified to fight back, but it doesn't change the fact that both sides are being killed. Our soldiers didn't ask to be brought to Iraq, many of them thought they were defending US freedom and saving the Iraqi people and all that other nonsense. I have two friends who served in Iraq one of which is there right now, and another who served in Saudi Arabia during the war. I can tell you they are changed men, there is a deep sadness in their eyes.

[Redstone]

43. Oh, bullshit. One of the kids was THREE YEARS OLD.

I don't think that three-year-old was killing any American soldiers.

Besides, if we go by your contention that "they're all the enemy," why don't we just go ahead and drop nuclear weapons and kill them all," like the rightwingers advocate?

By your argument, this would be just okey-dokey for us to do.

Redstone

[danalytical]

47. Damn it I didn't say that

I am merely saying the soldiers actually don't know who the enemy is when it comes to able bodied Iraqi's. Any idiot knows a 3 yr old isn't the enemy. I'm not saying Haditha is an example of this, I'm speaking generally.

[Redstone]

62. You said, and I quote, "women and children are killing our

soldiers along with the men."

That mean it's OK to kill any of them you see?

Redstone

[Joe for Clark]

57. No man, not at all.

If you twist somebody enough the results can be blood curdling.

It is true.

Maybe those kids did it. I am saying what those kids did is a direct result of the situations they were forced into. I am saying the people that forced them into it are RESPONSIBLE.

What would you do given the proper pressures??

I don't judge anybody.

Joe

[flyarm]

82. one was 5 months old! n/t

[Zhade]

87. Well, you just know the babies planted the IEDs!

:sarcasm:

I'm about to fucking PUKE reading apologia for COLDBLOODED MURDER on this site!

[flyarm]

134. there was this same kind of stuff and exuses when it was Calley..

same stuff different war...coverups...and excuses..

fly

[Zhade]

142. Not surprised a bit.

I was born right after we got kicked out of Viet Nam, and even I could tell this rang familiar...

[danalytical]

149. You guys are sick, blaming me for this shit

I never said these children deserved to die or that they are somehow responsible for killing Americans. I was only pointing out that women and children do indeed participate in killing our soldiers. It is happenning, and maybe they are right for attacking those occupying their land. But that's not the point. My point was that the soldiers are being attacked by just about everybody over there. Not just able bodied 18-40 yr old military men. It sucks. No child should ever be murdered or murder.

What good does it serve for all of you to mischaracterize my post? WHat good does it do to misplace your anger and blame me for something I never said. You should re-read my post and put it in context of what I was replying to.

Unfuckingbelievable. Now I'm a baby killer excuser? Just frigiin wonderful responses to a fellow progressve democrat. No wonder we lose elections.

[LostinVA]

157. Me too, Zhade, me too

Kinda like some excuses after a different war...

[PassingFair]

164. "Nits become lice"

An eye for an eye, and the whole world becomes blind.

War is hell.

The *ssholes that wanted this war don't CARE.
They cannot see beyond their own fear and desire.

And then someone like Hugh Thompson comes
along and strengthens my faith in humanity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson,_Jr.

[countingbluecars]

44. But a three year old??

[countingbluecars]

11. Many are responsible for these murders

including the soldiers who pulled the trigger.

[Qanisqineq]

12. no, they are responsible

As are Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc.

Just because soldiers and marines get tired and weary of deployment doesn't mean they can get trigger-happy and not be responsible. I heard the same shit with Abu Ghraib. My husband (an active duty soldier for the last 10 years) will tell you the same thing -- they know better and they should be tried for murder.

I can "understand" (for lack of a better word) being scared and accidentally killing a civilan in the fog of war. Understand isn't really the word I am looking for, but hopefully you get my drift. Going on a rampage killing unarmed innocent civilians... never. They are adults. They know better.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flyarm]

86. yes people break..but all of them? in one unit at the exact same time??

nonsence!

bullshit or whatever you want to call these excuses...

fly

[Joe for Clark]

88. But that is kind of the way it goes, right??

Hard not to break down if your budy doesn't - easy if he does.

Joe

[MindPilot]

15. Joe you hold an opinion that is not popular on DU.

I have been flamed heavily for even suggesting that the responsibility for this should fall on the chain of command that allowed it to happen and failed to mitigate it once it started.

But many here believe that if we just hang some enlisted men and maybe damage the careers of a few low-level officers, the problem will go away and everything will be back to flowers and puppies.

[arcane1]

19. and many many more who believe both

[Clark2008]

21. Because people are so enraged they can't seem to make

a judgment call.

I'm guessing none of these people have ever been in a war, either.

I'm glad the VAST majority of soldiers, Marines, airmen and crew have NOT killed innocent men, women and children and those who have been PROVEN to have done so should be punished, but we should not place the whole of the blame on the shoulders of these kids who were no more prepared for this fucking war than I am for nuclear science.

[countingbluecars]

23. I don't think many DUers believe that.

"But many here believe that if we just hang some enlisted men and maybe damage the careers of a few low-level officers, the problem will go away and everything will be back to flowers and puppies."

[LostinVA]

159. I don't believe that at all either

And, haven't read any posts that say that.

[Joe for Clark]

52. You are right and that is the problem.

Those dumb grunts were put in that position. There is a responsibility.

But for God's sake, the people that put them there ARE the problem.

People break - but the bastards that put there are the PROBLEM.

Joe

[lpbk2713]

20. They broke into someone's house and murdered all they saw.

These are Marines. Not just "weekend warriors". They had ample training and they should have known what was expected of them. The "Twinkie" defense just won't work here.

[Clark2008]

22. I'm thinking they DIDN'T have ample training.

There's a shortage of servicemen and women, don't you know?

They're throwing them in unprepared - like Vietnam.

[AlamoDemoc]

42. So the defence is that "US Marines aren't trained enough"?

Silly me, and I thought we had the best trained army in the world!

[dogman]

74. We don't have the best trained police force.

The military did its' job. It is now being used as an occupation force for which it was not trained, another failure on the part of the Bushco team. This is a direct result of an AWOL party boy becoming CIC.

[Clark2008]

112. We did - until Bushco.

eom

[LostinVA]

160. Not true

There's no shake 'n bake training going on at Parris Island.

[dogman]

60. And you think watching your buddies blown apart is Twinkies?

Some people believe temporary insanity is a defense, some courts accept that defense. Others support the death penalty for a variety of crimes. They are entitled to a trial no matter what you think.

[Joe for Clark]

64. What is "ample training"

Seems to me, that sure pales when someone is aiming at you.

Joe

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

27. It's Not The Murderous Husbands Fault. After All, Nagging Day In And Day

out really weighs on a man's emotions after a while and clouds his thinking. I mean, he just broke after a while, right?

Sorry, but I find both sentiments to be utter hogwash and cop-outs.

[Redstone]

28. No. Just fucking no. There is NO EXCUSE for murdering children.

Or any other noncombatants.

If the stories are true, it's fucking murder, plain and simple.

And yes, I know the kind of stress they were under. Intimately.

There is no excuse for the cold-blooded murder of children. Period.

Redstone

[Clark2008]

34. Joe is NOT excusing them.

Read the post again.

He's just not blaming them SOLELY.

[Redstone]

40. Balls. He said, and I quote:

"It is wrong to hold those kids ultimately responsible - 18-19-20 year olds.

Yes, I agree with his opinion that the blame should be applied in a "vertical stroke" all the way to the top, but nowhere in his post was there anything assigning any responsiblity to the soldiers themselves.

If the story is true, they pulled the triggers.

Redstone

[Clark2008]

45. And he also said, this:

Those kids maybe pulled the trigger - but we allowed it to happen. We have to fix this.

How is that excusing them?

He's just ADDING that we're, as a nation, responsible TOO.

[Joe for Clark]

77. Your picture of Gen Clark is looking up.

It is really good - we should all be looking up now.

Joe

[Joe for Clark]

48. How "responsible" were you in the face of authority at 18

years old - How responsible if you were 18 and scared to death?

How about 18, scared to death and worn out from a fight - over and over sent to the line???

I wouldn't be so judgemental. A lot of people break. You want more examples???

Joe

[Djinn]

79. mmm well I was reponsible enough

to know that even though joining the army wuld mean saving $20K in HECS, that joining it would mean murdering people who were never any threat to me. The west uses it's army for imperial purposes only. The last time the US acted defensively was at best after Pearl Harbour (military installation in a colony attacked NOT the US)

Since then it has been used to exploit the world's poorer people, or people who have the misfortune to be born on top of oil reserves.

If you VOLUNTARILLY joined the army then you volunteered to be a gangster for capitalism and I have trouble givig you too much sympathy if you find yourselves in a violent hellhole getting shot at, what did you think was gonna happen??

If you then use the opportunity to murder men women and children in cold blood , rape, torture and loot then you can rot in hell after your trial.

Not ONE person has said the people who sent them to war WEREN'T responsible but that doesn't mean there was any excuse for the soldiers who pulled the trigger, saying they were stressed is repulsive. IRAQI'S are stressed, US soldiers can make the choice to go home anytime, yeah it'll mean a court martial and possibly time inside, but if the choice is "kill kiddies for oil" and "spend a few years in jail" the choice doesn't look so bad.

[Joe for Clark]

91. I guess you aren't a vet then - I do not mean any disrespect.

Not stressed - BROKEN.

Broken - with purpose, with knowledge that the situation would break them.

People under fire really do break.

I really think if your choice was living or dying your answer might be different.

Joe

[Djinn]

120. Their CHOICE

was signing up, it's a VOLUNTEER force. I chose not to join up because I knew that may very well involve killing people who were never a threat to me.

You can think whatever you like but I would never find myself in the position of being shot at by citizens of a country I invaded and occupied for the enrichment of a few.

Also you're attitude would be highly offensive to many many vets who were shot at and worse and yet still managed not to open fire on toddlers in cold blood.

[Joe for Clark]

124. I really am sorry,

I didn't mean any offense to you.

Joe

[Djinn]

143. None taken on my behalf

I've never joined an army, never would unless my country was directly under threat (or the revolution comes!) but even if I was I have a pretty thick skin.

I just think many vets and currently serving soldiers might take offense at the suggestion that any of them could, look at a toddler and pull a trigger when they were under no threat. I think most couldn't, most probably have a hard enough time knowing the house they were involved in bombing, the vehicle they shot up for driving too fast etc contained children and other innocent people.

[flyarm]

92. 18 yr olds here in the states who commit murder are charged as adults

and usually sent to prison for a very long time ..if charged with cold blooded murder.

fly

[Mr_Spock]

96. You aren't even trying to understand the situation

Nobody said they shouldn't be charged and jailed for life, we are simply trying to understand the horrific situation they found themselves in. Friends just blown to bits and no way to know who did it. It must be maddening!

[flyarm]

115. how do you know what i understand..i had friends on the airplanes

on 9/11.. i was flight attendant of the year for one of the airlines involved in 9/11..ny base.. i had friends on those planes..

so if i go kill people because i am pissed or snaped that would be aok??

i had neighbors who died that day..so if i go kill someone because i snapped that would be ok with you?? friends of mine i grew up with died that day...

kis parents my son went to school with lost their lives that day...

how sick..how pitiful as a nation some of us have become..

maybe i have a value for life you never will!..maybe i know how very fragile life really is ...

maybe i know ..from those i have seen lost ..revenge killing never brings those lost back..it only creates more heartache,..and only leaves more lives snuffed out for no damn reason!

fly

[Mr_Spock]

119. Sorry you are angrily and stubbornly refusing to see the obvious point

I was making above.

I can tell you are going to argue this one 'till you're blue in the face so this will have to be it for me.

Take one last parting shot at me and it will have to end here.

[flyarm]

127. i made my point..you are entitled to your opinion , and i mine..

if that makes me more stubborn than you are.. so be it..i see it the opposite..but that is simply my point and my opinion..

if you see it that i am angry..that is your opinion..i see it as more realistic..

but as i said ..you are entitled to your opinion and i am entitled to mine..thats why we do notshare the same eyes..i see with different eyes than you do..and you see with different eyes than i do..you have your experiences , i have my life experiences...

i respect your opinion..please respect mine..

good nite..

fly

[Joe for Clark]

101. I guess you don't have an 18 year old kid.

Adult does not come to mine.

Joe

[flyarm]

114. i have a 28 yr old son!! do not attempt to know me..or speak for me..

and i have 2 brothers who went to nam..

i have a husband who was in the reserves..

i come from a military family...

and my co-workers were murdered on 9/11

please do not guess who or what i am..



and i raised my son through his 18th year..and he would never commit murder ..under any circumstances..and if he were to..i would never make an excuse for it!

fly

[Joe for Clark]

117. Sorry you took it that way.

You don't have a kid over now either, do you??

Joe

[flyarm]

130. self delete

[High Plains]

156. Christ, 13-year-olds are charged as adults!

[LostinVA]

161. And, I HATE the use of the word "kids"

Like in the Duke rape case: "the boys." Being 18-20 doesn't excuse you from during anything criminal and/or immoral. Being a "dumb kid" doesn't make you a killer.

[Mr_Spock]

95. Nobody is excusing them

Yes, they will be punished as they should be if found to be guilty.

Yes, they were pushed to the edge by the shell-shock induced rage of having bombs killing your friends day in and day out and never knowing who planted the bomb. How would you feel in that situation?

Not excusing them, simply understanding them. We both know that Americans are generally good people. This is not a normal situation by any stretch of the imagination.

We can still be thinking liberals even though what they did was absolutely horrific.

[Minnesota Libra]

30. Got your flame suit on?? Ok, lesson # 1, at DU NEVER suggest or........

....acknowledge the fact that every human being has a breaking point. Only DU members are allowed to rant, swear, or other unload on other human beings.:sarcasm:

Everyone else is supposed to have the personal endurance of Job. Our Military especially, who are getting arms and legs blown off, lifelong head injuries, or get to see their buddies killed in front of them in truly gruesome ways, are supposed to endure the carnage and never react negatively in any way.:sarcasm: Now never mind the fact that not one DU member could go through the same experiences and guarantee that they absolutely would never react similarly. Even though they could never guarantee that many DU member are still self-righteous enough to pass judgment on others.:sarcasm:

As for me, I'm just human enough to realize I could and might be one of the first to break and then anything is possible.

[Jigarotta]

35. delete, double post.

[Minnesota Libra]

37. Oh well - the truth even using sarcasm hurts sometimes. nt

[Jigarotta]

36. well, I'm human enough to....

ask one of my buddies or do it myself to put a bullet in My Own Head before I'd do that to kids.

No Excuse!
and your sarcasm really bugs the hell out of me.

[Joe for Clark]

54. I think you are a good liberal.

I don't know what I'd do. My hope is no more of kids will never have to ask that question.

Joe

[Djinn]

80. Don't join

an exploitative armed forces that is only ever utilised to secure power and profit for the already welathy and powerful and you wont be put in that situation. EASY.

[Joe for Clark]

100. We were good and decent once.

We will be again.

Joe

[Djinn]

123. Yeah?

When was that? When the US armed forces were used to slaughter for private profit in:

Mexico in 1914.

Haiti and Cuba for the National City Bank

Nicaragua for Brown Brothers and Co. in 1909-1912.

The Dominican Republic for sugar interests in 1916.

Honduras for American fruit companies in 1903. In

China in 1927?

Or are we talking about more recent "decencies" like Vietnam, the first Iraq adventure, the bombing of Amariya, of the bombing of Al-Shifa, military aid to a first world nation to disposses Palestinians, Panama?

Or p'raps the fabulous work of the SOA (who Clark defends and extols) in South America...after all training death squads to torture and murder peasants and nuns is the height of decency.

[Joe for Clark]

128. I was just going to go home - BUT

Yes, we were very good. If not, in 1944 and 1945 the world as you know it would be over.

A lot of my friends and family are Jewish. They would be gone.

The world was looking in the eyes of a new dark age - and we were the difference.

We were certainly good and decent once - and we will be again.

Joe

[Djinn]

140. so you've picked one

US intervention in over 100 years that could be classed as decent? Personally I do not support ANY armed intervention by nations that are not under threat themselves. If individuals' consciences compel them to fight Nazi's (and that is one I would have signed up for) then they're free to do so but armies should be used defensively only, it is the ONLY use of force that can consistently be justified.

BTW - While I can't agree with the myth that the US won the second world war (MILLIONS of dead Russians would also take issue I'd imagine) it also has to be remembered that while the rest of the world fought the Nazi's the US just sat back and made a fortune UNTIL Pearl Harbor was bombed.

The US DID NOT enter the war to save Jews, if that was their aim you'd think attempts to allow Jewish immigration from Europe wouldn't have been constantly stymied - that was a by product, much like the Soviets didn't enter Afghanistan to free the people from fundamentalism it was just a happy by product (for a time at least in Kabul and other cities) the Vietnamese didn't enter Cambodia to save the people from the Khmer Rouge, by product. All these nations acted in their OWN self interest, just as the US is doing in Iraq now.

[flyarm]

93. and would everyone standing beside you break at the same exact moment??

just wondering..what a coinsidence that would be wouldn't you say??

fly

[dogman]

99. That's often how it works.

Peer pressure, mob action, adrenalin peeking. They are in it together and might possibly snap together. If it didn't happen as a group it would still be probable for them to cover for the ones who did it. That is why an immediate and thorough investigation is necessary.

[High Plains]

158. Whine whine whine

[ComerPerro]

31. They murdered a lot of people, and tried to cover it up. But, sure,

let's dismiss it. It was nothing.

In fact, lets take what they did there and make it a new, official US Policy.

[The Stranger]

32. The law passes judgment on everyone -- EVERYONE

So the catchy little "don't pass judgment" argument is not going to work here. We don't pass judgment -- the law does. And it is almost undeniable from the evidence that there was a massacre of unarmed, innocent civilians. Those responsible must be brought to justice to the fullest extent of the law.

[Joe for Clark]

68. Really,

Tell me who is responsible.

Guys that pulled the trigger - easy enough.

But where is the ultimate blame - it stop there?

It doesn't even start there, does it??

Those responsible must be brought to justice to the fullest extent of the law.

That is so cute.

What does that mean???

I guess it is true until it is your kid pulling the trigger, huh??

I don't judge anyone. I don't walk in their shoes.

I DO judge the peoople that put them there, that is our job.

[The Stranger]

145. No, just because the commanders are ALSO responsible doesn't excuse murder

or other war crimes committed by the troops on the ground.

So it does start there. It doesn't stop there, but it does start there. The commanders who are responsible must be prosecuted.

But that doesn't mean the shooters aren't prosecuted. The shooters must be prosecuted as well.

[TrogL]

33. My military training said...

you are ultimately responsble for your own actions. The Nurumberg defence does not stand.

[ecstatic]

41. I think they were high on drugs

It's just so hard for me to imagine how someone in his right mind could blow away a child.

[SPKrazy]

46. Newsweek Quotes A Conscientious Objector Who Came Back

as saying that drugs are rampant over there.

including taking some drug for Parkinson's disease which increases dopamine and causes hallucinations, along with other more traditional drugs of abuse, and alcohol.

They also quoted a wife of a marine who wished to remain anonymous as saying that alcohol, drugs, and hazing were the biggest problems in Iraq right now.

It seems that killing is what soldiers, marines, and others, learn to do well in the military.

Counterinsurgency isn't something that the military does well. They are only now trying to develop a strategy to deal with counterinsurgency (per Newsweek)

[Joe for Clark]

71. Well, I can say - you pull the trigger on an M-6 it shoots

three rounds. You may know where that first one goes, but what about the other two??

I could say that. It is true.

But really, there are more common things. Where kids just get in the way.

My dad opened up on a town and a family popped up in the sights. They had to do that town. So those kids were just causalties of war. He did his duty. And those were nightmares he had the rest of his life. Good catholic boy and all that. I had a lot of Jewish friends that lived because of what they did, too.

Just what war is - it is why this Iraq thing is so criminal.

I think war can be necessary sometimes, but it is never a choice - should be never a choice.

Those Marines were in a bad situation and probably made a bad choice. But I wasn't in their shoes and I will be damned if I judge them.

God will and he will judge those that put them there.

Joe

[lumpy]

76. From what we've heard that is a

possibility. Combining booze drugs can certainly enhance amd bring out the worst of emotions.

[Djinn]

83. Being high does not make you kill kids

that's a lousy excuse as is they were stressed, while I beleive anyone that joins a volunteer army is partly culpable for all war deaths if that war is simply for profit people here seem to forget there's a large contingent of soldiers there who are ALSO stressed and probably also filled to the back teeth with amphetamines but they DON'T murder people.

[alarimer]

50. Bullshit

It was despicable and the perpetrators belong in jail for the rest of their lives. And so do their commanders who obviously fell down on the job. It was a WAR CRIME and needs to be treated as such. Those who actually did it are every bit as guilty as those who ordered/allowed it to happen.

[earth mom]

56. Bullshit. There is NO EXCUSE. Period. eom

[Joe for Clark]

63. I try to think this thru -

Particularly casue I have a kid there.

He got ambushed three times in two hours in Samara. I heard the fear in that voice. So, I guess I have a different take on this, a little. I hadn't heard that fear in a long time.

He is supposed to be Afghanistan, that is why he enlisted. He got f*cking shippied over to Iraq though.

He had no choice. Ever been to one of those graduation brom basic training?? All little kids.

They trust us - us adults. Dumb bastards.

My dad flew 78 combat missions in europe. I felt so sorry for those WWII vets - but these kids comming back from this war, I feel much more sorrow for them. WWII had to happen this didn't.

So I read this stuff about Hadithia - you don't think this happened in WWII - you think again.

It is about war, what happenens in war. These kids were doomed from the day B*sh started it, cause that is just the way war goes. But this time - those were our kids that had to do it, live through that. That is why he is such a bastard, really.

How dare he do this to our kids - how dare he.

So, no - I can't quite hold those dumb kid quite so responsible - cause I know the adults were a thousand times more responsible.

Joe

[earth mom]

146. I'm sorry to hear that your kid is caught in this unholy hell of a mess.

:cry:

And I will agree with you on this: that Bush Co and every Congressman or woman who voted to send those troops into this TOTAL LIE of a "war" is TOTALLY responsible for what's happened-no doubt in my mind. As are the superior officers in charge. However, our soldiers should know right from wrong, and must bear the responsibility for their actions too.

The minute we excuse anyone from this kind of atrocity is the minute our civilization goes down the tubes.

[CJCRANE]

59. As a fellow Clarkie

I would agree with you. Wes himself before and during the Iraq War said that the US military is not designed or trained for nation-building or peace-keeping (in addition to the fact that he disagreed with waging this particular war in the first place).

[Jai4WKC08]

94. But Clark does not excuse them

He sees the deeper causes. But it does NOT excuse what the Marines are alleged to have done.

Here's what he wrote for this week's Time Magazine:

If the Haditha reports are true, there can be no excuse. Not stress. Not anger. Not frustration. But this incident raises more disturbing questions. Have there been other such incidents? Does it indicate progressive decay in the standards of discipline in our forces? On top of Abu Ghraib, what moral authority do our forces retain? Can we recover our standing in the eyes of the Iraqis? And what will the ramifications of this incident be for U.S. power worldwide?

In war, terrible fears and passions are unleashed, with often unpredictable consequences. But military leaders know this--and they are charged with accomplishing the mission and protecting the troops, all without sacrificing our values. They'll do their best, even to accomplish the impossible. It's up to our political leaders to task them and give them the resources and to know and respect our limitations. And so Haditha must be a clear warning to the politicos: the window for effective U.S. action is almost closed; don't break our forces trying to salvage a failing mission when we've got more to do elsewhere.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1200742-2,00.html

[Djinn]

131. I'd agree that armies

are no good at nation building but Clark seems to have a much more nuanced opinion, he doesn't think the US armed forces should be used for training an Iraqi police amongst other nation building issues but he's quite happy to defend training murderers and torturers in South America.

""We are teaching police and military people from Latin America human rights," ... "And if we didn't bring them in and teach them human rights, they wouldn't be able to learn human rights anywhere." I'm sure the dead of El Mozote are eternally grateful their murderers were such human rights afficianados :puke:

[Jai4WKC08]

147. Wrong on both counts

Clark never said that US forces shouldn't be used for training or nation building. He may have said that they aren't designed for that, as the post before asserts (altho I sure don't remember it and would need to see a source), but I know he supports their use when necessary.

And it's absurd to say Clark is "quite happy to defend training murderers and torturers in South America." Aside from the FACT that he would never be "happy" about murder or torture, the SOA did not train anyone to murder, torture or otherwise abuse people while Clark was assigned as the Southern Command CinC.

I'm sure you realize, but others may not, that the El Mozote massacre happened in 1981. Clark was only a field grade officer who had never even been to South America and who had ZERO to do with the SOA at the time.

Now, if you would please provide me a link to your posts where you've criticized Democratic Congressmen and women for authorizing and funding the SOA... I'd bet some of them were even in Congress back in the 1980s.

[tlsmith1963]

61. Sort of Agree

They were under a lot of pressure & snapped, which is why the troops have to come home. They were wrong to kill innocent people like that, but our leaders were wrong to send them over in the first place. It *is* another Vietnam, & now we're going to have to deal with another generation of psychologically messed-up soldiers when they return. This is why war should always be the last resort. Leaders send people over there, they snap & kill innocent people because of the pressure, & then they have to deal with PTSD when they get home. Our leaders need to think about that before they send them into a war.

Tammy

[dogman]

65. I understand your feelings.

This is not the first time this Country has endured this and unfortunately wont be the last. I was around for the My Lai investigation which seems at this point to be very similar. The superiors were never held responsible and the criminals served hard time. This is likely the same outcome we'll see here. Just keep in mind that many of us have worked to end the criminal occupation of our government. There are legal and moral limits to what we can do. Use your rage to inspire you in continuing to seek change and overcome the difficulty of our challenge.

[RagAss]

66. so what happens when they are so far gone nobody wants

them back here.?..what happens when that"breaking point" is way back in their rear view mirrors.?

What then? 150,000 Colonel Kurtz clones....We need them home now !!! A failed President is no excuse to sacrifice brave men and women....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. By that logic, we shouldn't condemn child abusers or rapists.

Or, any in a long list of people who "break under stress".

Hell, you could even make a case that Bush, Cheney, et al, "broke" under the "stress" of 9/11 and the pressure of electoral politics when they sent those "kids" to war.

I have no sympathy for the guys who pulled the triggers and even less for the guys who commit similar atrocities from a safe distance with bombs and artillery while following "legal" orders.

I can "understand" all of the above but I won't condone it or excuse it.

Edit to add:

The politicians and generals who sent them there should be standing in the dock with them, but I'm not holding my breath. One of the first things I learned in the marines, was Shit Flows Downhill, and all the excuses and bandaids the bigshots are applying now are a great demonstration of that axiom.

[Joe for Clark]

69. I suppose - if someone is SOOTING YOU AT THE TIME!!

Now that sure takes B*sh Cheney out of the equation, since they are allergic to bullets.

Joe

Man, don't judge people. I don't know what I'd do under such circumstances, really.

[NNN0LHI]

70. Well that kind of makes it open season on Iraqis then. Doesn't it?

From one year old baby Iraqis on up. Is that what you are trying to accomplish here?

Don

[Joe for Clark]

72. No, not at all.

Joe

[Zhade]

81. Bullshit. I judge them murderers.

NT!

[Berserker]

89. It is wrong to hold those kids ultimately responsible ?

Are you kidding? They KILLED little children. Who would do that? War or not there is a line you don"t cross. Fuck all the excuses.

[dysfunctional press]

98. fuck that shit.

murder is murder.

[Solly Mack]

103. Those marines are responsible for their actions

just as the American government is responsible for their actions.

Just as those with the power to stop Bush are responsible for their inaction.

Troops that commit war crimes are a danger to all the troops...and I have no sympathy for those troops who pose a danger to my soldier husband. None.

Ultimately, there's blame to spare....but that still doesn't absolve those Marines of their actions.

[Pastiche423]

105. Did someone put a gun to each of those men's heads

to make them join the military? No, they signed up on their own free will. Did they know killing might be involved if they signed up? Duh!

Coming of age during the Viet Nam War taught me one thing....to hate war and I will never understand why anyone would join any organization that's sole purpose is to kill.

I am NOT responsible for any part of this war. Not. One. Iota. Moreover, I will judge anyone anytime I damn well please.

[Joe for Clark]

110. A lot of them signed up to do the right thing only to

be ordered to "Iraq"

What then buddy??

You are responsible as are all of us "Americans" are. We allowed this to go forwarad as a society.

SO, yeah, we are responsible - as a society.

You will judge anybody anytime you damn well please? - You and God then.

For me, I don't judge.

Joe

[Pastiche423]

113. They signed up knowing that killing was involved

Signing up to do the right thing is a bunch of crap.

I am not a buddy. I have boobs.

No, I am NOT responsible. I am not nationalistic. I did not vote for the idiot that squats in the Oval Office. I do not pay taxes. I protested every Saturday on 101 from October 2002 until March 15, 2003 in Portland among 30,000 others people. No, I am NOT responsible!

I do not believe in god. I am agnostic.

For me, I judge murderers.

[Joe for Clark]

118. Tell me,

How is it you judge if you are "agnostic" - isn't that kind of thing against your "religion", so to speak.

Curious.

And by the way, a lot of my buddies have "boobs" - I am no sexist.

Never a criteria for me.

And, by he way - maybe you somehow absolved yourself, but for the rest of us, this society is guilty for allowing this immoral war to occur -and history will "judge it" so.

Best to you,

Joe

[Pastiche423]

125. Where is it written that agnostics can't judge?

The only people responsible for this war are the ones that wanted it and made it happen.

Peace

Victoria

[Joe for Clark]

129. Peace to you too Victoria.

Joe

[Djinn]

136. WTF?

Tell me, How is it you judge if you are "agnostic" - isn't that kind of thing against your "religion", so to speak.

your views on this are as confused as your views on moral culpability it appears

[LostinVA]

163. Maybe you need to read up on agnosticism and atheism

[Djinn]

135. what "right thing"

were they attempting to do? kill Afghans because supposedly a government they had no say in gave shelter to people who supposedly planned 9/11?

what "right' things were these people joining up for?

[SoonerPride]

106. Wrong

There is no excuse.

None.

Murdering innocent civilians is not acceptable.

Ever.

Murdering children is not acceptable.

Ever.

Period.

The act was inexcusable, the cover up from the higher ups is inexcusable, and the general malaise and disinterest from the majority of Americans on this issue is inexcusable.

[NoodleyAppendage]

107. I hope you remember your philosophy the next time a 3 yr. old is killed.

There is NO EXCUSE for the murder of children who can barely walk. I don't care how crazy you are...do you really think the soldier who plugged a bullet into the head of the children at Haditha didn't know it was wrong??

J

[Tom Rinaldo]

109. We always must be responsible for our own actions.

probably wouldn't fault a soldier for being so spooked that they shoot too soon and kill someone who they thought was reaching for a gun but wasn't. I probably wouldn't fault a soldier for panicking and shooting into an angry crowd that is running toward their vehicle, before being absolutely certain that there was not another route to escape. I would probably hope that such a soldier, in either case, was relived of all combat duty if they proved to be too unstable to handle the stress involved in a manner that did not overly put innocent lives at risk.

Premeditated murder of people who were posing no active direct threat, who there was no way of knowing whether they had ever played any role whatsoever in any aggressive action against American soldiers, that is still and always will be a crime against humanity. There are many reasons why people commit crimes. There are many reasons why people commit murder. If a man or woman walks in on their spouse having sex with someone else, rage and incredible emotional pain may result. That could explain murder, some might even call it a mitigating circumstance, but it would not justify murder. We ultimately have to be accountable for our actions.

Joe your name says you support Wes Clark. Wes Clark thinks there is never a justification for troops committing cold blooded murder, even in a combat arena, if in fact it is proven that they intentionally killed people who they knew weren't enemy combatants actively opposing them. Small children were shot at close range in this tragic incident. That can not be justified if it did not happen as an accident in the course of normal combat. But Clark also never lets those at the top of the chain off the hook, he always says the buck stops there. Those soldiers probably would have lived out their entire lives without ever snapping and taking innocent lives, had Bush not created that war and those conditions. That is why Clark always stresses that War has to always always be a last resort. It can be predicted with certainty that terrible and tragic things will happen in any war, it is only the specific incidents that can't be named before hand.

[Joe for Clark]

116. I do like Wes Clark Tom, I really do.

But frankly, I am a war baby. Mom and Dad were combat vets in Europe, my brothers in Viet Nam and now my kid in Iraq.

From the day this war started something like this was going to happen. It is just what happens in war, you know??

I cannot blame those kids in Hadithia - I can't. The people that put them there, whell that is a hole other story. Fear/shock and breaking is a process. Those kids broke - any of us could have broken too. You could kill if it meant you surviving - if it meant you doing your mission. I don't know what happened exactly, but would it really matter, assuming they were not cold blooded murderers going into it??

WHere is that blame - answer that and and we are back where we started. That is the problem.

joe

[Tom Rinaldo]

132. None of us here know what really happened there

Hopefully a real investigation is now going on, that will shed light on exactly what did happen. And I do believe in innocent until proved guilty. But yes, to me it does matter what happened exactly. And I do realize that things like this always happen in war, and I also actually believe that they happen less frequently with the American military than they do with most militaries in the world.

It really is a multi faceted tragic event. Those troops should never have been sent to fight this war, nor should the war have been waged the way it was which contributed to the deteriorating situation there. I can't imagine, not having ever been in a combat situation, how terrible their experiences have been. Still, tens of thousands of soldiers faced similar stresses in Iraq, and while I am sure there are some cases involving murder of civilians that we do not yet know about, I am also sure that the vast majority of the tens of thousands of soldiers who saw a friend of theirs blown up next to them did not subsequently go on a killing spree for hours after, shooting old men women and children, moving from house to house to do so.

It is an insult to the rest of our troops who have been through so much also, to suggest that it would have been acceptable if they had snapped also. Some things are never acceptable. I do believe in the concept of mitigating circumstances. But that tempers guilt, it does not remove it. Like I tried to say in my post above, I am sure that there are any number of impulsive decisions that men and women make during combat that are wrong, that result in unnecessary loss of life. I have much greater understanding for how that comes to pass. Split second reactions, momentarily impaired judgments, it's war, I realize that. But some things are wrong and always will be wrong. Methodically hunting down and murdering unarmed civilians over an extended period of time is wrong. It's wrong when it happens at a high school, it's wrong when it happens at a work place, and it's wrong when it happens in a war zone in Iraq. We all have basic human responsibilities. The rules of War are far more forgiving, for reasons that can't be ignored, than are the rules for civilian conduct. But there still are rules of war.

I might have mercy on those soldiers if I served on a jury. Even if I believed in the death penalty (which I don't) I can not imagine agreeing to that sentence, or life imprisonment without chance of parole either. But they made a grave error. Drunk drivers make a grave error too when they get behind a wheel, only to potentially later run over a pedestrian and flee from the accident leaving an innocent to bleed to death by the side of the road. That act wouldn't make someone an evil people necessarily, but that behavior still is wrong, even if they got drunk because their wife just left them, there were other choices they could have made under the circumstances.

The fact that Bush is guilty doesn't make soldiers who murder innocent. And every one of them who comes back from a war without having intentionally taken out their anger and fear on civilians comes back a hero to me, even if the war they were sent to fight was wrong to begin with.

[Djinn]

138. Make up your mind

You keep saying you're not excusing the soldiers, just pointing out that reponsibility lies with the architects of this "war" - I would be amamzed if ANYONE posting at DU doesn't agree 100%, you think ANYONE here thinks Bush/Cheney et al shouldn't be sent to trial and convicted (personally I'd also like to see 'em swing but I can't say that's the opinion of all here)?

No dispute there, none at all, if yu can find me a DU post which says that those who planned this abomination bear no responsibility for what is happening daily in Iraq I'll give you my next weeks pay.

However, you can NOT claim that you don't excuse or apologise for the actions of the individual soldiers and then say:

"I cannot blame those kids in Hadithia - I can't."

[High Plains]

162. Those "kids" in Hadita murdered 24 people in cold blood.

Yes, you can blame them.

[Jara sang]

122. Fuck that shit.

In one sentence you are stating that "we can't pass judgement" in the next you are saying "WE are responsible" I have zero responsibility when it comes to implementing US policy abroad. The fact of the matter is that those policies are formed by unelected offcials. Short of a coup what the hell do you suggest?

[uppityperson]

148. Yup, except for 1 point, it IS for all of us to pass judgement on

Pass judgement on and work to make sure those ultimately responsible are held responsible (not just the military that did this) AND to work towards ending this occupation and NOT going blithely into war again.
Well stated.