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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:32 AM
Original message
Drinking with a hard-core boooosh supporter
I'll call him Greg, though that's not his real name. He's an acquaintance, a frequenter of the same little neighborhood bar my boyfriend and I drop in to watch a baseball or basketball game. I know Greg's politics are fiercely to the right and that he defends booosh as one of the greatest presidents of all time. So I sip my margaritas and I watch the game and I listen to what Greg has to say in the conversation with my boyfriend, but I do not engage him. I know my personal limits when it comes to dealing with those whose perceptions strike me as utterly stupid and utterly wrong.

Greg is of the general boomer age, old enough to have young grandchildren but not old enough for social security. He is a Vietnam-era veteran, but I do not know what branch of the military or where he was stationed or whether he ever saw combat. I'm sure he has graduated from high school, perhaps has some college but not much; I do not know where he works or what he does for a living, only that he was recently promoted by his employer (the occasion of some celebrating at the bar).

Last night I listened, almost incredulous, as Greg denounced anyone and everyone who has ever criticized booosh or his regime. He labeled all criticisms as lies, including the video footage of booosh reading "The Pet Goat" at Booker Elementary on the morning of 9/11/01! "That never happened!" he insisted. "It was all made up by that traitor Michael Moore! It never happened!" When asked what DID happen, Greg had no response except to reiterate his insistence that booosh did not sit glassy-eyed in a first grade classroom while terrorists flew planes into large prominent buildings.

When confronted with the reports of atrocities in Iraq, Greg shrugged them off as "normal" for war, and then explained that war is the normal state for humanity. There's been war ever since two guys met up, Greg informed all of us. Killing is just part of human nature, though he couldn't explain how the species has avoided killing itself off. It doesn't matter if the victims are military or civilian -- it's just war. And besides, when it comes to civilians in Iraq, even kids can be terrorists. Now that some of them have been killed and the incident might encourage other children to become terrorists in revenge, it'd be better if we just killed everyone over there and started from scratch. Let the military just go in and clean it up. (Chivington and his "Nits become lice" line came immediately to mind.)

Needless to say, Greg allows no criticism of the US military, which in his mind can do no wrong, either collectively or individually. Supporting the troops means denying any report that they have screwed up, and it also means supporting without criticism those who have sent them there. The military is honorable and our boys (Greg conveniently forgets that there are women in the military; he is appalled that a Phoenix freeway was renamed to honor Lori Piestewa, the Native American woman killed in Iraq) never commit atrocities and if they do it's okay because that's the nature of war. . . . . . . . .

But Greg would send his kids to Canada before he'd let them be drafted.

And he'd gladly round up every brown-skinned person and ship them all -- documented or not, citizen or "illegal" -- back to Mexico. Why? "Because this is our country, not theirs! I was born here, this is my country, and I don't want to see it taken away from me by a bunch of people who don't even speak English!" Never mind that when asked, he can't tell you if any of his ancestors entered this country legally or not; possession is much more than nine-tenths of the law. What we take from someone else is ours and they should just get over it; what someone else takes from us is still ours and we have the right to kill them over it.

My boyfriend tried several times to get me to enter the conversation, but I refused. I know the limits of my patience. . . and the force of my temper. I do not need to explode in public and will avoid incendiary circumstances whenever I can. So I began to make conversation with another patron of the bar, a newcomer I'll call Ted. Ted and Greg are of an age, but Ted claimed to be on the other side of the political spectrum. "Claimed" is the operative word.

Oh, Ted dislikes booosh and thinks the war in Iraq is wrong, but only because we should be spending our military efforts in Afghanistan, hunting down bin Laden. (He was wearing a tee-shirt to that effect and said he had more in his truck that he would be glad to give to anyone who wanted one.) We should be killing civilians THERE, because they harbored bin Laden. And rather than spend taxpayer dollars on an increasingly expensive prison system here in the US, we ought to arm all the prisoners in our jails, train them to kill, and then ship them over to Afghanistan to wipe out the terrorists. And if they happen to kill a bunch of civilians, well, that's too bad, but at least they won't be killing civilians on the streets of LA or NYC. And if they happen to get into a gang war over there and kill a bunch of each other, well, that's even better!

It was not a pleasant evening, but it was not a surprising one, either. People like this are out there.

And they are not open to conversion. They not only do not see the truth in front of their eyes -- they REFUSE TO LOOK AT IT. On returning home, my boyfriend pointed out that I refuse to listen to boooosh when he is on tv. I change the channel, hit the mute button, or literally stick my fingers in my ears so I don't have to hear that whiny, phony drawl. "It's different," I explained, "because I already know what the little weasel has to say. It's not his ideas or his words I'm blocking out, it's just that ghastly voice. I know what he has to say and I know I don't agree with it. Greg refuses even to acknowledge that there might be another perspective."

When boyfriend asked why I thought that was, I fell back on the only explanation I've been able to come up with -- he, like so many others, are afraid. They're afraid of being wrong, of admitting that they might have made a mistake or been taken in by a swindler. If there is a culture of fear in the US, I would say that it is as much a fear of being wrong than of anything else. A fear of admitting that maybe there isn't a god and maybe there isn't anything after we die and maybe there isn't anything we can do to fight off evil and maybe there isn't in fact anything "evil" out there.

I'm the first to admit that sometimes I don't have a whole lot of self-confidence. Maybe it's because my myriad mistakes were always pointed out to me as a child and so I don't have much confidence but I also have less difficulty admitting my mistakes. (Sometimes even when I haven't made them!) But I've known too many people who, for whatever reason, will go to great lengths to avoid admitting, to hide or cover up, to blame someone else for, or to simply deny their mistakes, whether they are mistakes of action or merely errors of judgment.

In boosh they find reinforcement. They don't have to examine their positions on issues, they don't have to analyze causes. They don't have to think.

Eventually, we'll see Greg at the bar again, and the conversation will again deteriorate into argument. And I will sit at my end of the bar and sip my margaritas and explain it all to boyfriend on the way home. Because Greg, like the rest of the 29% or whatever it is that are the hard-core, will never change and we will never change them.


Tansy Gold
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. Greg, like all "true" believers, will be screaming for Jesus
when the truth hits him someday. Until then, people like him are best avoided, because they LIKE confrontation, and believe violence transcends all discussion. It will always be his way or the highway.

Be afraid of this jerk, especially when drinking.


PS

Ask him one question, if Booshe is god, why haven't we "won" yet in Iraq. THAT should make his head explode.
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I agree. Greg is classic born again material. Just a matter of time. nt
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BlueManDude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. I no longer engage with folks like "Greg" - no point in it. n/t
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
19. No, I just say "That's the most unchristian thing I've ever heard"
and WALK AWAY.

It gets the point across like nothing else can.

I refuse to be engaged in any discussion with these people. It just makes them nastier and more defensive.

They know they're wrong. They're just terrified of that knowledge.
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CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
4. Has Ted been getting his ideas from watching "The Dirty Dozen"?
Since that involved sending criminals (they were in the army when they committed their crimes during WWII) on a special mission into German territory in WWII. Ted's idea with shipping prisoners to Afganistan is totally impratical on so many levels.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. Not sure where Ted got his ideas,
but as soon as he started talking about giving convicts weapons, three other people said, "Yeah, yeah, just like the Dirty Dozen!"


And Ted is supposedly on "our" side. . . . . ugh.



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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
5. Thank you, Tansy. Your account is scary as hell, but you
do have a way with words. These guys sound like meatheads. They support this war, but would be the first to send their kids to Canada? I think Greg is just a flat-out coward with false convictions.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. actually, the bushbot understands that war is not for his kids
we understand that it is not for any kids...or life. It is one more crack in the bushbot armor.

K/R :toast:
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
6. GHWB and McCain might get em.
That is how I handle bushbots. I love quoting GHWB or Colin Powell regarding the Powell doctrine. I often suggest that stayin out of Iraq and fixating on OBL and Afghanistan would have been a better policy. When they throw "Democracy and Nation building" in Iraq as justification alone, I use racism (who cares about them people <-I use much more offensive terms). Them bushbots can be cracked. That being said,

Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Thanks for sharing your story. :yourock::toast:
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
8. Bushvolk can't handle the Truth.
By the time some people reach 21, I've heard, they've pretty much settled on their world views. For many -- especially American men -- they no longer are willing to learn or hear (let alone read) anything new.

Using the rhetorician's toolkit: I'd start off by acknowledging what they perceive. Then talk about what they know is not the complete picture. Introduce what they obviously have not heard. Then bring in the new stuff -- the Truth -- that would be too shocking, i.e. Bush is a warmongering pscyhotic traitor.

We Liberal Democrats need to develop a message that can break through all the clutter in these clogged minds, preferably a magic sound bite for TV.

Great post, Tansy_Gold. Well written, too.

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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
9. You poor thing....really!
Ted and Greg.....do these two know each other? I think you have it right: they're afraid to come to terms with being WRONG! I have a twin sister who is a big repuke! She "just can't talk about it"...would harm her gentle sensibilities!!! I guess the best we can hope for is someday we'll say, "We told you so!"
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
29. people like this are going to hell when they die. its the only time
i truly wish there was a hell.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
10. Denial

It's not just a river in Egypt.

Yeah, there's a 24% that is true believers in the restoration of a glorious past. Reality has always been their enemy.

But they do crack when their idolized One True Leader blatantly lies to them and acts against their interest.

Give them about a year. He'll sell them out when they're all he has left to sell.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. "acts against their interest"
Sadly, boyfriend and I have tried to point this out to Greg on previous occasions, with no success whatsoever. Greg is truly a "God, Guns, and Gays" supporter of booosh. Truth is only what he believes/wants to believe to be true, and I can't even begin to imagine what kind of sell-out on booosh's part would make Greg change his mind.

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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
11. I'm not going to criticize you for not speaking up because................
.....I live in an apartment building with at least two die hard neocon/fundie "President Bush is a Born Again Christian" types. To protect my rent subsidy I avoid political discussions with these two whenever I can. When I can't avoid the issues I say something like, "I know you believe Bush is a born again Christian. Although even Jesus recognized the difference between Christianity in word only and Christianity in deeds. Bush is too much like the Pharisees for the definition of Christianity that I was raised with." Then I walk away and just that much shuts them up but good. You don't have to do this but sometimes I go on to say something like, "From the Ten Commandments I was taught from it is a sin to lie. Bush definitely lied about a need for war with Iraq because first of all Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 and on top of that Bin Laden hated Hussein for not being radically Islamic enough."

I'm like you though, I tend to get carried away with my absolute loathing and unbridled hatred for this entire administration so I have to be careful who and when I challenge someone.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #11
25. or in a nutshell - "Bush a good christian?Actions speak louder than words"
EOM
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
12. Good post
We all share your frustration. It sounds as thought your occasional, well place, pithy remark works.
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billybob537 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
13. At some point the booze will wear off
and supporting the war with someone elses children will cause a break in sanity.
If he ever had any sanity. He supports a true cowards convictions. When he wakes up he will be too ashamed of his cowardess to confront it.
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
14. By the way....
contrary to what most people believe, war is only about 6000 years old (read: A History of Warfare by John Keegan). Of course violent conflict has existed forever, but it was small, brief, and often involved mostly symbolic displays of dominance. War is quite new and arguably unnatural behavior for human beings.
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gator_in_Ontario Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
15. I applaud your restraint
I would be guzzling the margaritas and chasing them with shots!
:beer: :beer: :beer:
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peekaloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
16. Either Greg needs to stop drinking or drink a lot more!
:shrug:
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doc mercer Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Bush supporter

If this makes ya feel any better ... I live in Austin so
try that on for 24 hrs per day

THEY ARE EITHER DUMB OR REALLY DUMB
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Welcome to DU
:hi:

Austin is the only place I've ever visited in Texas. I would have thought it would be an island of sanity. Sorry you have to deal with that.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
18. The Booker School Incident DID Happen... My Ex-Sister-In-Law Lives
about 8 blocks away from the school. She saw the entourage of cars that morning, and she saw all the hoopla around the school. What is funny is that this school isn't in one of the very best areas in this county, but is a very good school from what I've heard and seen.

She's not very political, not nearly as much as I, but she doesn't support The Idiot either. She called me that morning and wanted to know what was happening, right before the planes hit!!

I live in the same county, but further south but she knows how involved I am! She was married to my husband's brother who is sooooooo like your friend Greg. He retired from the Air Force and is a real DOOOFUS!

My husband and his family are mostly democrats though so he's the outsider, but I know what you're talking about here. It's almost unbelievable what comes out of their mouths. I'm NOT shy, but I REFUSE to even "go there" because of the fanaticism!! You will NEVER convince them, but I do wonder if they ever take a look in a mirror from time to time!

I also do the same thing you do when The Idiot happens to appear on my TV. I will NEVER intentionally let him on, but my husband laughs at me, but at times also scolds me too. My husband scolds me because he says I won't be able to do ANYTHING about it so I should just accept it! He's a Democrat but I'm the activist! I keep telling him that EVERYTHING these people do affects our daily lives! He's a bit more simplistic, a workaholic he feels we need to get our "chores" done because THAT'S what affects our daily lives!

I don't care, it never stops me and he knows it. I wish he was more of an activist, but he does speak out about The Idiot to others. He just never goes to any meetings or volunteers for anything. Some say I make up for the both of us!

I have NEVER seen anything like what has been happening here in America before, and I'm a Boomer myself!! I just watched "Steal This Movie" again yesterday with Vincent D'Onofrio about Abbie Hoffman, boy talk about memories. There doesn't seem to be that kind of idealism or openness today, or maybe I just haven't seen it myself. I know I have a hard time connecting with people in my area to take "action" against what is happening. We have groups here, but they're pretty lame for the most part. The best I've seen is the group out of New College... Florida For Peace (college kids) and I really do admire and support them. But they are a small group, but any time they have something going on I join with them. We just don't have enough people though!

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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
21. had a man start humming so he couldn't hear W.J. on my TV lol


I asked him if he was humming so not to hear political reality and he said no, no it's just a nice day to hum. sure it was.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
22. The only question worth asking Greg
I'd want to know why he'd send his kids to a cesspool of socialism, like Canada, rather than have them serve in our glorious armed services.

I don't listen to Bush, either. He'll be echoed by all the media afterward (even AAR in order to dispute his facts), so I won't miss anything he has to say. Given that, I don't see why I have to subject myself to listening to him. After the second or third lie, I start screaming.
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
23. Greg is a turd n/t
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Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
24. You and I have a similar take, Tansy
They are afraid of their own shadows.

And most definitly not big enough men and women to allow themselves to feel shame, especially not shame for something bigger (their country) than their own little world.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
26. Great post - I dealt with this for years at the local bar
I don't have to say a word, you've said it all. Just like you said, even the "reasonable" ones are hateful bigots, they just don't want to kill all brown-skinned people, just the one's they designate for execution :eyes:

I finally had to just stop going to this place. I can't really handle the smoke any more and since the politics is so bad there, I just decided to find a more upscale place where smoking is prohibited.

These people will only change their politics when they are dead. I hate to be so much like them when I say this, but if Greg was an ant, I'd step on him. Rather feel guilty than wait for my house beams to get eaten.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. That Zinn quote sums it up.
We see the victims as innocent - they choose to believe whatever nonsense that the victims are not innocent - and that the people of the Middle East deserve whatever our military is doing.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. stepping on ants
That's kind of how they feel about terrorists, or anybody in a country who supports terrorists. Just step on 'em, better to feel guilty than wait for them to fly more airplanes in buildings.

Just sayin'.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. That's why I had reservations saying that.
OTOH, I have said previously that I consider the neocons and their supporters to be the only terrorists I'm afraid of.

I'll let you make your own conclusions...
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Frustrations come out sideways
I've said similar things myself, just drawing the comparison is all. I can understand people getting frustrated with Afghanistan in particular. Iraq is a major fuck-up that didn't have to happen. But if Afghanistan goes to shit, that means people can attack us and we're not even able to launch a competent defense and that is really really fucked up. At this point in time, I'm more concerned about the Bushnuts too, but it doesn't mean I think there's no such thing as terrorists because there are and they are lovin' this Bushit.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
28. Great piece.
Love the "that didn't happen" part about Bush's terrified cluelessness in the Florida classroom. Here's the apparent logic: Bush is a Great Leader. A Great Leader would never sit in a Florida classroom for seven minutes looking like a rabbit in the headlights while the country was under attack. Therefore it didn't happen, and anybody who says it did is a traitor. Who you gonna believe--me, or your lying eyes?
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
33. Sounds lie he loves the taste of backwash
a boosh deadender...
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
36. So if he's hopeless, why don't you kill him?
Seriously. If you really believe a human being is unsalvageable, why not pull out that lady-like nine millimeter from your purse under the table at the bar, and give his stomach some unarguable responses?

This attitude towards the hardcore Bushies is the most tragic thing I see in DU discussions. It is using the same prejudicial attitude thrown at progressives and simply applying it to conservatives.

I will say that you did come upon a valid reason for his continued support; he doesn't want to be proven wrong. This is an entirely human response, that you or I or anyone else might have about some subject or another. An addict never sees his addiction as a problem; he didn't make a mistake, it's everyone else. A gambler refuses to cut his losses and run, and keeps upping the ante to try to make up for his losses; he doesn't understand that the whole process is him losing.

Let's put it another way. If you think he is really hopeless, and you don't feel up to killing him, why do you subject yourself to the guy's company? Why don't you draw a line and tell your boyfriend, "The second this gets into politics, and the arguments start, we're leaving." For it's not simply the politics (a statement I've never heard on DU) but it's the guy's insistence on dragging the conversation to the point where you argue.

And think about this - by continuing to let him churn your stomach like this, you're enabling him.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Just because I don't like the guy or his politics is no reason
to kill him, for crying out loud. I don't carry a gun of any kind, don't know how to use one, and I don't believe in that kind of response.

I feel more sorry for Greg than anything. I think he's going to have an eye-opening one of these days -- or maybe not -- and it's going to be very difficult for him to accept.

I don't have much choice over who does or doesn't come into the bar, and I'm not about to let someone drive me and/or boyfriend out of a place where we have other friends whose company we enjoy.

My point was to illustrate that there are people out there who we simply can't "turn" from the dark side. They may even be productive members of society. And we just have to learn to live with the frustration.


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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. My point is, he's dead to you in spirit. No different than in flesh.
I'm not saying you should convince the guy to change his politics. But don't presume that he's unsalvageable. Even if you can't do it, events might. Paying $5 per gallon of gasoline, or seeing troops round up people for the Hispanic Concentration Camps at gunpoint, might do it.

I just think it's pathetic that you wish to declare this guy an "unperson" on politics alone. It's exactly like the people who were talking "blue state succession" or "fleeing to Europe," as if those were real solutions. (They have this idealistic idea of Europe based on New York Whore Times travel articles, if there were no facists in, say, Italy or Germany.)

By the way, there's no reason why you shouldn't know how to use a gun. I don't own one myself any more, but I would never be so short-sighted to believe that I would never be in a situation where using one was required. "Nunca diga, 'de este agua no bebere'," as they say.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
38. Shit. Get some new drinking buddies.
That doesn't sound like recreation, it sounds like punishment.
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