My God ,They are killing Babies

[DearAbby]

It was like a wave that hit me. The lastest news of more murders being committed in Iraq. Among the latest victims was a six month old baby.

WHO CAN SHOOT A BABY?

Yesterday, report of a shooting, of a pregnant woman, in labor, trying to get to the hospital. Killing her and her unborn child.

I sit here sobbing in shame. In a previous post I said, there will come a point, where all soap and water in the world, will not wash away the blood that is on our hands.

I sit here crying, and my mind is shouting to me. THIS IS WRONG! WHAT THE HELL AM I DOING IN FRONT OF THE COMPUTER? What has happened to the BRAVE, who lives in the home of the Brave?

I am afraid.

I am afraid of losing my job.
I am not a leader, just a woman.

But my heart aches, The world has to know that Americans...TRUE AMERICANS would not sit and allow this to happen, or to continue to happen. And it will, as long as we try to occupy that country.

There has to be someone that says it. THIS IS IT. IT STOPS NOW. THE HOPE,IS WITH THE PROLES!

STOP THIS WAR!

:rant:

Please help me guys, this news has really gotten to me. I can't seem to stop crying. The horror of it, and it is in my name, and the ultimate kick in the pants is we are paying for it.

The blood wont come off, guys.
What do I do?
:cry:

[Cults4Bush]

1. Number one, you'll be ok. Believe it.

Number two are you talking about Ishaqi?

[DearAbby]

2. Ishaqi , Yes

My god, What is happening. I am really a basketcase here. I am alone at home, with just DU to talk too.

This is so horrible.

[Cults4Bush]

68. You have friends here willing to listen.

This war is turning into an education for many Americans and the sad part is the Iraqis are already so used to this that it doesn't even provoke public outcry from them anymore.

I feel horrible for what the troops are going through over there it turns my stomach icy but I feel even more retched knowing that no matter how bad it is for them its 10 times worse for the Iraqis.

[lindisfarne]

109. Is this news? Babies have been dying all along. n/t

[Waya]

3. Know how you feel......

.....I've had a lump in my throat for months now - trying not to scream.....

I try telling myself that I'm no longer surprised, shocked or stunned whenever news of another atrocity (this whole war is one unholy atrocity) surfaces. But the fact is - I'm shocked,I'm disgusted, I'm sickened and I'm angry. Constantly angry..........

What can we do?

I don't know anymore.......

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

9. While I understand the sentinment and agree with you, personal attacks

are against DU rules. I do agree with what you wrote though, what you responded to seems thoughtless in response to a sincere cry of "why?" to a horrible thing/situation.

[libnnc]

12. sorry to break the rules...

Poppseedman's response and his little picture that has magically vanished now, just sent me over the edge.

[Poppyseedman]

14. Thanks, I've been called worse.

Sometimes people need a slap to get focused and to forget the fear.

Fear accomplishes NOTHING.

The rethugs got her right where they want her.

Fearful and loathing

[libnnc]

16. Yeah, sometimes people do just need a slap.

[Waya]

30. Fearful - NO

Loathing - DAMN RIGHT. I loathe this entire business of War. I loathe Bush and his minions and, yes, at the moment I loathe Marines (yea, I know that doesn't fall in with the 'Support the Troops' concept - and yea, I know not all US Soldiers are bad) - but that's how I feel at the moment - so be it.

Loathing gets worse every time another lil' 'incident' makes it to the light of day. I'm sick to death of having to help fund this depravity, this slaughter and the massacre with my tax dollars. I'm sick to death of feeling like I'm in a bottomless pit of horrors and there ain't anything I can do about it - for now.

Yea, you're damn right I loathe the Neo Cons, their agenda and everything they stand for and it's getting harder and harder to not give in to the loathing - they have destroyed everything that was good and decent about this Nation and its people, dammit, what's no to loathe?

[uppityperson]

10. killing babies is not horrible?

are you saying that the OP should not feel so bad about this since things are sunny elsewhere?

[Poppyseedman]

17. Exactly where did I say

killing babies is not horrible?

[libnnc]

18. what happened to the snarky pic you had with your post?

[Poppyseedman]

21. I still see it in the post

[uppityperson]

22. I still see it, think it is not very nice though

[uppityperson]

20. "Get a grip" "everything is not horrible"

that is what you said.

[Catrina]

92. The baby picture reminded me sadly, of the baby that was shot in the

back of the head. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for the families of those children. Do people ever get over it?

Here's what one Iraqi man had to say after his child was shot to death on the way home from buying him a video game at the store:

They were a few hundred yards from their home in the Karkh neighbourhood of Baghdad when — according to Rahman — US forces opened fire on the car, killing Abdul.

Soldiers approached the car and told Rahman he had failed to stop when ordered to do so. Rahman said he had never heard an order to stop. The soldiers searched the car and, as they departed, they threw a black body bag on the ground.



“They said, ‘This is for your son,’ and they left me there with my dead son,” he added.

Rahman claimed he had had nothing to do with the insurgency until that moment. “But this is America, the so-called guardian of humanity, and killing people for them is like drinking water. I shall go after them until I avenge the blood of my son.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2103695_3,00.html

And they pretend to wonder why there is a resistance ~ a perfect way to endanger all the troops lives, and any Iraqis who might be cooperating with them! Any person who cares about the troops has to be furious over these atrocities, including the military itself. If they are not, you have to wonder why. :cry:

[Bouncy Ball]

11. Please...

get some sensitivity.

Sheesh.

[uppityperson]

23. Hiya BB, nice to see you here

taking a break from school or some such (dang my memory)? Anyways, hi and yeah.

[Bouncy Ball]

31. Yep! School's out for the summer!

YAY! And hi to you too!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

47. It Appears To Me That The OP Has A Heck Of A Lot Better Grip

than you do, as shown by your insensitive and uninsightful post.

You think you are showing strength and qualities of a leader but you couldn't be more wrong. What you are showing is a lack of empathy, sympathy, understanding and caring for someone who is obviously quite troubled by what is going on. There is absolutely NO SHAME in her words whatsoever and I applaud her for her openness and honesty. I'm in as much shock as she is as to the realities of this war, and my heart goes out to her completely.

But again, there is no shame in her words. Instead I see only human kindness and an insightful, caring and well rounded person. She epitomizes what many of us here feel from time to time. We all have felt helpless, overwhelmed, and overtaken by it all. During those times, real leaders with real strength would offer encouragement, empathy, understanding, and reach out a hand in friendship as if to say "it is ok, I am here, and together we are stronger. You may not feel strong enough to do this on your own, but do not forget that you are not alone nor will you ever be. We are all in this together, and together we can form the strength and conviction necessary to push forward, and rid ourselves of this evil. So hang in there, know we cry with you, but we also fight along side of you. We won't ever give up".

That, to me, is what a real leader with real strength would say. That's not what I see in your reply. Instead I see something that shows a complete lack of understanding and empathy and couldn't ever serve to help anyone at all. So hopefully next time, when the opportunity arises to someone in emotional need, you will choose to offer an understanding and sympathetic hand as opposed to a dismissive and snarky reply.

Peace.

[libnnc]

53. you're much more articulate than I was...

I just called him an...well...he knows what he is.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

121. Hear hear

Great post, Mindcrime. Said it best.

[MsKandice01]

5. I was just getting ready to make the same kind of post...

You're not alone. I'm in the exact frame of mind you're in right now. I looked at the pictures of my precious 3-year-old son on my desk right after I saw those pictures and just burst in tears...and they just won't stop. I can't take it. It's just too much.

[uppityperson]

7. Me too.

if this were my friends or family, I would not rest until I killed and injured and hurt as many of those who did this as possible. Humanity is not very humane sometimes and it is really really bad.

[Pachamama]

118. If our country was invaded & occupied by a foreign army and they came into

our homes and killed our children, our parents, our friends, our neighbors - you better believe that every single one of us would take arms against those people and wouldn't stop until they were gone.

That was what our founding fathers and the colonists who were outnumbered by the Loyalists to the Crown when they fought the tyranny they were faced with. Did you know that the Colonists who rose up against the King George were outnumbered 5-1? That didn't stop them. And they shouted "Give me liberty or give me Death" and "Live free or die".

Guess the Iraqis view our soldiers that way and all these killings of innocent Iraqi citizens is only creating more hatred and resistance and this vicious cycle will not stop. Our troops should never have been sent there in the first place for this illegal war and they have been driven to edge of insanity in a hell we can't even imagine. They need to be pulled out ASAP. We need to get the hell out of Iraq Now. At this point, its a matter of stopping the insanity and the death of our soldiers and of citizens by our soldiers. Iraq is going to be a mess for a long time, but we made it worse and it won't get better as long as we are there.

I can't even imagine how hated we are there....

[DearAbby]

8. It comes and comes

like they are shoveling it. Each one worse that the one before. I too thought I had scandal fatigue.

Sometimes I feel like the little boy with his finger in the dike.

This latest news was like a dam bursting, I mind wanted to retreat. It's a Dream. It hadn't really happend, for a few short nano-seconds. My mind recoiled from it.

Then it burst.
I feel so helpless, I had never asked for this, yet it is done in my name.

Emotions are rocking me. Anger, Hate, Shame.
I don't know what to do.
I don't know.

All I can do right now is cry.

[Bouncy Ball]

13. Yes, they are.

US forces. That are supposed to represent all of us.

Sickening, isn't it?

[Bouncy Ball]

15. What I always wonder is how the cretins in the bush

administration live with themselves. I mean, I'm assuming some of them knew about this stuff long before it was general knowledge. How do they sleep at night? I couldn't live with myself.

Of course, I wouldn't have plunged the country into a pre-meditated, unnecessary war on a country that did nothing to us in the first place.

[cassiepriam]

38. No problem, they are sociopaths. No empathy for anyone. nt

[pretzel4gore]

19. the news is trying to manipulate you....

the idea is, they (the pigmedia) want to blame the failure in iraq upon YOU ie on the american troops over there, and escape the noose themselves. Some US soldiers truly think geeb (brother of john ellis bush, or 'jeb') is jesus h kerist.....iow they are too much a product of the silliness the freepers typify but they are a tiny minority anyway. As terrible as this news is, remember the Downing Street Minutes, which said, in incontestable proof, that the iraq war was a conjob plotted long before any 'wmd' questions or so on; yet it never ever made the nightly news: why? Well, maybe no benefit were visible from publicising the dsm at the time(?) The busheviks want you to be ashamed and angry, but at the ordinary soldier, the ordinary serviceperson....cuz that way, THE BUSHEVIKS get away with murder. Please don't let them. THe busheviks, especially the pigmedia, created geeb out of ronald regan and john wayne hole cloth, all in order to steal you (we) blind. Don't let them get away with it!

[DearAbby]

35. the news is trying to manipulate you?

Wow last I heard there was scant news about this in M$M, did the aligator get stuck in traffic and miss lunch?

How about a missing Blonde somewhere, surely there must be a blonde missing in all those that go missing in this country.

Or a Bride that got cold feet, and decided to create a bogus story about being abducted so she would miss her own wedding?

Is it being manipulated, to feel shame and saddness and the news of senseless loss of life?

The only way Media is manipulating, is their lack of facts. And what they consider news.

Get a grip?...Oh,I will, after I cry.

[flyarm]

96. you have that right!! news manipulate us ?? this second story is on BBC

not our fucking so called news..just like the last story that was in all the foreign meida and took a mere 6 months to make it over the pond!!..well hell it was over the pond in jan in the Toronto press...fuck..our media only manipulate the dumbest among us by not telling truth and only fucking telling garbage to the ignorant...

any missing white girls today??

opps that alligator was close to where i live in fla ..i better be damned scared ..right?..

ahhh but Atta being on Abramoffs casino boat close to where the alligators attacked..the week before 9/11 thats no fucking story worthy of telling the american dumb fucks...

or that jeb bush signed an executive order starting the martial law process 4 days before 9/11..not the same media value as a fucking alligator attack ..do you think???

nahhhhhhhhh we need another cruise ship groom...

or another Aruba attack...

the american MIND IS SO DUMB FUCKED...all it can swallow is white girl missing,..

or alligator swallowed white blonde girl...

i am just as disgusted and angry and heart broken at what my country has become...i just don't know how much more i can stomach...before i just have to frigging leave...

and do not tell me there is any compassion in the moither fucking comapssionate conservatives..i want to "water board" all of those fuckers right now!~!..let them see how compassionate their fucker in this white house is...the one they make every excuse for..

i am wholeheartedly convinced idiot son, lord pissy pants could fuck a gay pink elephant on the front lawn of the white house with a million conservatives watching..and all the media broadcasting it world wide...and they would say it wasn't lord pissy pants...or they would say it was someone else's fault!!

i hate those murderers!!

and the complicit hypocritical so called conservatives...

they are the scum of the earth...

but much, much worse..

fly

[LibertyorDeath]

143. Well said!

[DearAbby]

24. WHO WOULD SHOOT A BABY?

How is this person breathing the same air I do? How can this person be remotely called human?

Following orders?

I DONT BUY THAT SHIT.

There are orders that is your duty to disobey if they are illegal. A moral obligation to disobey that order.

I don't buy it.

Not this gal, I don't buy it

[Philosoraptor]

28. I guess you missed all the apologists trying to put in into "context"

Once you've re-programmed yourself to accept torture and killing infants and stopped being so sentimental, you'll feel much better.

[cassiepriam]

34. Good girl, give em hell. Following orders to shoot a baby? Then damn it

disobey orders. Be willing to go to Leavenworth to do the right thing. I pray to God that these soldiers get some b*lls to say no to orders if that is what is happening.

And to stop killing innocent women and children. How brave are you to kill a pregnant woman in labor?

Keep speaking out Abby you are right on.

See, you are doing something! Go girl.

[chicNpickN]

25. Do you feel that same way about abortion?

Just a question--don't flame my first post. Explain how the two are different. (I'm pro-choice, BTW.)

[uppityperson]

26. welcome to DU, wow, what a first post.

may your time on DU be educational.

[uppityperson]

105. TROLL IS GONE.

peace and thank you all.

[Nimrod2005]

140. And very short...

[libnnc]

27. huh?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

33. Sort of like shooting a pregnant woman in labor

as per another news story I read today, one which made me sick.

The U.S. forces are creating enemies on a daily basis. Imagine how that woman's husband feels, looking forward to a new child in the family, and then to have his wife and unborn child taken from him because of some trigger-happy ignoramus.

[uppityperson]

42. good reply

thanks

[Bouncy Ball]

39. Yeah, right, you're pro-choice.

And I'm the Queen of England.

[WePurrsevere]

64. If you are truly "pro-choice" then you wouldn't need to ask. n/t

[TheWatcher]

91. How about you take your right-wing crap and go elsewhere?

Any explanations on that particular subject would do you no good. You woudn't be able to objectively debate in the first place.

[flyarm]

97. one was alive and living ...and looking the murderers in the eye!!

do conservatives love murdering children like they are supporting..and making excuses about ...but only dislike unborns being aborted... is more the appropriate question!

or another more appropriate question..is it only american unborns that conservatives give a damn about??

fly

[Redstone]

98. Don't be talk to us like we're fucking idiots, and you'll get along a lot

better around here.

That was a really, really stupid question, and a deliberate provocation. And then you have the gall to say "Don't flame me?"

Post a flamebait post, and flames you shall receive.

Go away.

Redstone

[uppityperson]

99. please check this out, not sure, but think so.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1331658&mesg_id=1332116

[Redstone]

102. Thanks, UP. That confirms our new pal as a troll, for sure.

Redstone

[uppityperson]

104. 1 thing I detest is the lack of subtlety.

at least TRY, for whosevers sake. At least try to be subtle.

[Redstone]

106. Yeah, you go that right. No class, no cleverness at all.

Hey, it was nice to go troll-hunting with you.

May we meet again for such sport...

Redstone

[Dave Reynolds]

103. Okay, in simple terms.

Abortion is done by the choice of the mother or parents, prior to the fetus being a viable human being.

This was a mother in labor (with, I assume, a viable human being) killed (again I assume) against her will.

Did you really need to have that explained, verityink?

PS. Late-term abortion is a myth.

[kestrel91316]

113. Hmph. If you're pro-choice, with a question like that, I'm

Marie Antoinette.

Welcome to DU. Enjoy your stay.

[Warren DeMontague]

124. "Code Name Hard Hat! Hard Hat! HARD HAT!"

"What's That?"


"Bye Bye, Lardass!"

[cassiepriam]

29. The women and children of Iraq have haunted me for years now.

I see them in my sleep. At least I am not alone so much any more. Others are beginning to feel it. The blood is on our hands.

I pray every day for the Iraqi women and children. I send them as much love and light as I can. I speak out when I can. I support the brave ones among us as much as I can.

Our county has been taken over by sociopaths. And now our troops are acting like sociopaths as well.

When your tears stop, say some prayers. Do what you can do to help, however little it may be. My hope is that if enough women unite maybe we can stop the killing. We don't have to be leaders, we just have to be women. Women who are sick of babies being murdered by American soldiers.

And may God have mercy on our souls. No one else will.

[TahitiNut]

32. Until we, the people of this nation, are willing to shed our own blood in

... the streets, we are complicit in this regime's war crimes. Not just one or two - who can be smeared as insane - but many of us must be motivated and willing to put our own bodies in harm's way. Sitting back and weaving dreams of election victories or calling on those who're at very the bottom of a democratic nation's totem pole (our military) to fight not only the "enemies" on one side (foreign) but the "enemies" on the other side (domestic), is the act of a TV couch potato - not a "live free or die" democrat.

We march for cheap labor. We protest on warm, sunny days. We sneer at the 'anarchists' at trade summits. We laud the 'centrists' who support this criminal occupation. We claim it's enough to vote but aren't willing to die for it.

We get the kind of government we deserve. :shrug:

[The_Casual_Observer]

36. "Our Heroes" are killing babies.

[lonestarnot]

37. What's the difference between 6 months, 2 years, 4 years and 8?

That's how old the kids were in Haditha. (sp?)

[DearAbby]

55. You're right...

Don't get me wrong, all the crimes that are being recently reported I do feel the same, disgust and sadness. These reports are coming out as rapid as gunfire.

Call it shock

I don't know why Lonestar, all I know was that the mental image of one of our young troops, standing there and actually shooting that baby sent me over.

Just knocked the breath, my strength, everything from me. I can not tell you why it didnt burst before now.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

40. Just remember, it's not all of them....

Not all of the soldiers, but a few sick individuals are doing this. Let's not start spitting on all the servicemen because a sad, pathetic few are making them all look bad...
Duckie

[Bouncy Ball]

41. No one said they were all doing it.

My God, if they were all doing it, there wouldn't be many Iraqis left before long.

But even "a few" doing this are a few too many.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

43. I completely agree..

But this place is thisclose to getting to that Viet Nam phase where a lot of people was spitting on ALL The soldiers and treating them like shit. And I'd really hate to see that.
Duckie

[Lars39]

45. Do you have a link for that?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

62. Calm down.

I wasn't speaking specifically about anyone, it's just a feeling, an opinion. I am allowed to have those and to voice them here.
Duckie

[Lars39]

Accusing liberals of "spitting" on the troops is a RW talking point.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

73. So, when you disagree with something it's a RW talking point?

I come from a family full of people who have been in the military. Sure, I might not agree with the war their fighting, but it doesn't make me right wing to want them treated right. There aren't a lot of troop supporting people here at DU. It's just the way I feel, from the things I've witnessed. I'm sorry if you don't like my opinion.
Duckie

[Lars39]

85. It is one of the repub's favorite things to accuse liberals of.

I think you do the majority of DU a major disservice by your accusation that there aren't a lot of people that support the troops.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

87. It's the way I feel.

:shrug:

[Lars39]

89. I saw plenty of threads supporting the troops here on DU on Memorial Day.

You can feel it, or search the threads to find the truth, but you shouldn't accuse everybody here of not supporting the troops. That is just wrong.

[lonestarnot]

49. hmmmmf! My ass! You're making up stories. Post a link!

[YellowRubberDuckie]

63. How many successful threads were there on Memorial Day supporting troops?

I started one and it sank like the titanic. It's an opinion, a feeling. Again, I am allowed to have those. I read a lot and its just a guess.
Duckie

[Lars39]

72. There were plenty of threads supporting the troops on Memorial Day.

Why are you broadbrushing DU?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

74. I didn't say everyone...

And if I did, I didn't mean to.
Duckie

[Bouncy Ball]

51. Where? Who is spitting on soldiers?

I saw a very strong anti-troop attitude streak here in JUST A FEW PEOPLE, as far back as two years ago. That's nothing new.

Personally, I'm glad more people are realizing that war is nasty and brutish and this stuff goes on in almost every single war.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

58. Its just an opinion, a feeling.

I've posted several troop supportive threads that were completely neutral and they sunk. There's always someone putting the soldiers down somewhere on DU. I feel like people are listening to the Bush BS about how you can't support the troops AND the president, which of course is crap, but it just feels like if people around here are a little scared to show support in case they look like they might be freepers or support Bush. That's where my comment came from. I didn't mean for it to freak anyone out, and I wasn't talking about anyone specifically. I was just telling you what I felt.
Duckie

[Bouncy Ball]

71. It's cool!

I'm the wife of a vet. I'll gladly say I feel for these men and women, who are in a bad place right now. My husband's best friend was there, is home now, and completely disagrees with this war. He's trying to get out now, so he doesn't ever have to go back.

You can support the people involved while disagreeing with what the government is doing with them. That's what I'd say.

But there will always be those who are anti-military, no matter what.

[uppityperson]

61. I never spit on any soldier, here are some links to this urban legend

http://www.slate.com/id/1005224/
(even a freeper one) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1276799/posts

[YellowRubberDuckie]

67. Maybe if my uncle hadn't been spit on I might believe you.

:shrug: As he was getting off a plane in San Diego after returning from the war, he was spit on. He was in a wheelchair with a broken leg that was shattered by shrapnel, wearing his uniform.
Duckie

[uppityperson]

78. Are you calling me a liar? Just checking here. There are bad people.

(edited to remove an extra dupe word)

I am sorry that this happened to him. There are people who do unthinking or cruel things, I am sure that someones got spit on. BUT, this was not common and of course it will happen again because there are just some people who act badly. However, I would not say that everyone was spitting on the returning military because THAT isn't true.

I was beaten up once by a man, therefor all men are woman beaters?

Most of us hate what some people do, but are trying to support the military by getting them the hell out of Iraq.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

79. I don't believe I ever said EVERYONE or MOST...

And I'm not calling you a liar. I'm just saying you can't say it's an urban legand or it didn't happen.
Duckie

[uppityperson]

83. suggestion, go edit your post #43, will save a lot of grief.

"But this place is thisclose to getting to that Viet Nam phase where everyone was spitting on ALL The soldiers and treating them like shit. And I'd really hate to see that."

sorry for jumping on you, peace, am reacting badly to all this too, sorry.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

86. I suck...

And I admit it. I shouldn't have said everyone.

[uppityperson]

101. naw, we all have blown it, no problem unless it is a problem

sorry for being reactionary.

[Leopolds Ghost]

141. There are plenty of eyewitness links in the freeper thread you cited...

Some of them sound like bullshit or wishful thinking, others sound like factual accounts. They were arguing with an article, not a person, so I am not clear why they would make up an account when they are clearly proud of getting the chance to beat up "dirty hippies" after they were spit upon (and in one case, get an airline to revoke the seats of a couple "college hippies" in first class in order to make them more comfortable, whereupon all the other business class passengers cheered and offered to buy them drinks.) Why would they make such stories up?

Sure, it could be that the mere presence of the hippies was offensive to them and caused things to escalate, but this could be true for both parties as well. Sounds to me like a bunch of assholes on both sides, especially when you consider:

1. Most of the blue-collar white soldiers were racist assholes;
2. Many of the black soldiers were swept up in the Black Power scene;
3. Most of the protestors (college or dropout) were ALSO a bunch of assholes and future yuppies with no real politics. Many of them dropped their "lifestyle" as soon as it became inconvenient to assuming the white-collar careers their parents had picked out for them as soon as the war ended and it was safe to stop hiding from the draft.

For these people, spitting on un-educated soldiers (who were not their "betters" - remember, America is not a class-less country) was just part of the fad, like smoking pot (later, snorting coke became the fad once they could afford it, perhaps coke abuse could help explain Reagan-mania the same way people have tried to blame the violence of the early 70's on paranoia caused by abuse of pot and LSD.) I doubt that the people doing the spitting gave it much thought, it was a chance for insecure white-collar people to engage in a bit of mob violence and prove (to themselves) that avoiding the draft was not a sign of weakness. I'd bet you anything that their counterparts, white republicans who NEVER served (frat boys like Cheney and Bush) were more prone to violence against hippies, also in an effort to prove their own insecurity.

We witness this "chickenhawk" phenonmenon today every day. I am just suggesting it is true on both sides. A LOT of upper-class and upper-middle class college bound folks tried to assert themselves during the Vietnam War. Never mind that the "movement" started because of all the LOWER-class and LOWER-middle class kids (baby boomers) who were entering college for the first time in their family's history thanks to the GI bill, and many of their families were old-time leftist who were union organizers, had fought in WWII and voted for FDR.

These kids were forced to create their own politics in the early 60's due to the incredible implosion of traditional leftism after the revelation of Stalin's crimes by Nikita Kruschchev in the mid-1950s, hence the origin of the New Left movement, which was allied to M.L. King and predated the Black Power and feminist movement by a decade and was not associated by those movements (or "interest group" politics in general) before the 1970's.

It's hard to determine what the ACTUAL New Left movement thought about spitting on protestors, but there was a definite faction, spurred on by the example of the riots and Black Power, that thought soldiers coming back from the draft were "fair game". One such group, the Weathermen, very nearly came close to killing 1,000 people at a verterans ball.

Don't ask me to explain their thinking.

[rman]

112. Maybe you uncle wasn't spit on by everybody,

and maybe your uncle is not every soldier.

Your anecdote about your uncle hardly proves your claim that everyone was spitting on all the soldiers.

[kestrel91316]

116. Really? In SAN DIEGO, of all places?

Somehow I find this a little bit hard to believe. San Diego is a RW town.

I CAN see a RWer spitting on a soldier if they thought he was insufficiently RW himself.

[pretzel4gore]

139. anti war/racism activists got beat up all the time...

some of them were even murdered. Read 'the ghost of Mississippi' if you want a feel of what those who fought the racism/fascism which in those days was everywhere in the land, went through. i can see you feel strongly about this spitting issue, but....even the yuppies around abbie hoffman never 'spit upon' any 'nam veteran (actually, that defies logic anyway, as most regular soldiers are from the lower income classes and that, by itself, would pissoff the person who, in this alice-in-lookinglass world, now supposedly forgets that fact, in order to spit on him(?) as far as the incident involving your relation, it was almost certainly a police agent acting as if he a leftist (that went on/goes on alot - a famous story from the 'rolling stone' mag circa 1970 about a undercover police agent who infiltrated the american indian movement. During the famous meeting in minneapolis, the attendees realized they ALL, to a man/wyman, WERE FBI COPS! LOL! Not a real activist among the 50 or so people there) Anyway, the enemy uses everything to push his agenda, so hopefully no one holds the left responsible for the pig's actions and schemes....

[Leopolds Ghost]

142. Do you think a lot of the "spitting" / "agent provocateur" stuff was FBI?

Could elements of the Weather Underground (the accounts of people who were planning to blow up verterans, not just spit on them, according to the recent movie on the subject) have been FBI who were paid to infiltrate the SNCC and bring it down from within? Is that why so few were captured, and the ones who turned themselves in received, mostly, lenient sentences? Were only a few agents involved in planting seeds in the minds of idealistic New Leftists, who, lets remember, were pretty into drugs at the time and already subject to paranoia? Could the few people who are now in jail for life (the rest of them bizarrely walked away scot free and now mysteriously have very highly paid careers, despite the fact that most of them did NOT grow up in wealthy families) have been suckered into the hatred necessary to "bring the war home" and set up to take the fall?

I see a mob mentality working on BOTH sides in the collapse of the 60's protest movement, ESPECIALLY amongst those (hippies on one hand and racists on the other) who managed to escape the draft and had something to "prove" to themselves.

A recent PBS documentary (American Experience: 2 Days in 1967) highlighted some of these questions for me, just listening to the self-justifications of both the vets, the cops, AND the college students who were involved in the Madison riots while their counterparts were in an ambush 12,000 miles away.

The folks who remained behind in the US saw these images on TV and clearly it set something off in society. People on BOTH sides wanted to bring the war home, when you think about it... because they knew it was happening, they knew what was happening (including the inner-city riots), and they didn't want to feel left out and they wanted to prove that they, too, did not totally lack the capacity to "fuck shit up." So they picked sides. That seems to be human nature.

[Warren DeMontague]

125. Oh, BS.

What most everyone here wants for the troops is to BRING THEM THE FUCK HOME.

Which is a helluva lot kinder than forcing them to die in the desert for a shoddy pack of lies.

[uppityperson]

44. not spitting on the servicemen but on the ones who put them there

The critisism I have is that the servicemen/women are there at all. If they weren't there, they wouldn't be doing this.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

76. And I agree with you 100%.

It's the people who put them there who are at fault...and I'll help you spit on them all day long.
Duckie

[Canuckistanian]

130. Bingo!

The ones who put the soldiers there are the ones to blame just as much as the troops themselves.

The soldiers are in an almost impossible situation, in fear of their lives every second, untrained, ill-equipped and told lies.

But we'll never see the enablers on the stand, will we?

[lonestarnot]

46. Agree... That's what war does to some people. Screws 'em in the head.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

77. You can't see the things people in war see and still be right afterwards.

That's my beef with McCain. He used to be somewhat tolerable, but when he said being a POW during VietNam didn't effect him mentally or emotionally, I called bullshit.
Duckie

[aikoaiko]

48. ugh, can you provide a link for this latest baby killing.

The pregnant woman death was also said, but it occured under an ambiguous situation if the news is depicting it correctly. The car was speeding toward a checkpoint and didn't slow down.

Its understandable why the driver didn't want to slow, but it was very risky behavior to appear like a car bomber while heading toward US troops. I believe the driver says he didn't realize he needed to slow down.

[lonestarnot]

52. Don't know who you are asking or which one is the latest.

[aikoaiko]

81. I was asking the OP as she referred to something new.

[lonestarnot]

90. Then watch this

http://www.chris-floyd.com/isahaqi/

[aikoaiko]

93. The deaths of those children and adults are powerful images

Its a shame we will probably never learn the truth of how their deaths occured.

[lonestarnot]

94. Physical evidence of how occurred, just not who did it yet.

[motocicleta]

135. I'm not sure it matters that much how they died.

I see no reason to dispute the locals claims. Even if I did, though, their deaths seem pretty directly traceable to the US led war. As a US taxpayer, that is all the proof I need that I am derelict in my duties as a citizen. I don't know what to do, but I clearly need to do something more than I am.

[uppityperson]

54. here are a few, do a news search, google is good

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2314801
http://www.kron4.com/Global/story.asp?S=4968726&nav=5D7l
http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/front/story/3300194p-12158110c.html
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/31/iraq.main/index.html

[aikoaiko]

80. thank you, but I thought the OP was referring to an additional killing

beyond the killing of the two women in the speeding car incident.

[WePurrsevere]

75. Link to BBC news article about what looks like another US atrocity....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5039420.stm

[aikoaiko]

82. That looks as bad as Haditha.

How many more will be revealed?

[WePurrsevere]

133. Sadly I fear many more & for each occurance more "insurgents" are born....

revenge and hate are powerful motivators.

[shadowknows69]

50. I'm afraid too Abby

I think we all are and we all are afraid to lose our jobs and our lives. What we have to ask ourselves is do we feel that things are bad enough that these things might probably be taken from us anyway someday if we don't draw the line. My personal line has been November of 2006 and I'm not so sure that may not be too late. After that, I aim to misbehave, for good or ill. I'm just a man, I'm not a leader either, but I'll follow the right one to do what must be done.

[DearAbby]

70. I'll stand with you.

:hug:

[IndyOp]

56. Honor the Deaths of Innoncents at Haditha and Abu Sifa...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1331643

[Minstrel Boy]

57. Anger can be power

Let fury have the hour, anger can be power.
Do you know that you can use it?

The Clash said so, anyway. And I think they were right.

[stellanoir]

59. First off BREATHE please

REPEAT. Till you get some objectivity.

Take a few steps back.

I went to a presentation a few months ago. I was there to support a women who had lost her only son in Iraq last Thanksgiving. She was making her first speech after the death of her son. I had spent a day and a half editing the speech. She did a excellent job.

There was a woman there who had served in the military for 20 years and with the State Department for about a decade. My understanding is that some of those years overlapped. She resigned her esteemed post upon our illegal invasion of Iraq.

When I presented her with similar concerns to yours she had a concise response. She said, "This is what happens under rogue states." That gave me pause but I realized upon a modicum of reflection that she was right.

Though we've all been raised with visions of Mom and apple pie, the illusion of the loftiness of the American Dream, our oft presumed moral supremacy, and though I truly treasure and hold near to my heart the democratic ideals upon which our Constitution was founded. In most recent years it has been summarily and systematically trashed.

Look at our origins. We decimated and commited genocide on those that were Native to this land. We enslaved innocents from another culture, kept them in bondage and built our wealth on their servitude.

We feign "Christian values" when we really encourage selfishness and reward greed. We are a desparate culture in decline.

The recently exposed atrocities are no worse in some ways than what has always been true of war. Precious human lives are routinely dismissed as collateral damage. It's more often the innocent civilians who pay the ultimate price. That has been true for a very long time but not with such heinous weaponry with such lasting results.

You can cry. I cried all weekend as it was the first Memorial Day of my many years when I actually knew someone who had lost their life in combat.

We all need to cry and it is purgative. Yet beyond that we must act in whatever way we are capable to speak the truth of election fraud and our resulting blustering rogue state that will undoubtedly fall over time.

We have to find more creative and non linear means of rectifying this colossal disaster our National nightmare has wrought upon the world.

We need to transcend the intractible dualism of conservative/liberal schisms when few are really not a somewhat mixed bag of beliefs.

We have to find the things upon which we can all agree. The most primary of which would be that kindness is far better than selfishness and greed. The secondary belief is that laws long established should be maintained and the catch all excuse of being in a time of war of someone's deranged invention does not grant impunity for any leader, or at least it hasn't supposed to have done so since the Magna Carta. That was good and lasting legislation. So were the Geneva Conventions and habeus corpus. IMHO

Yes I am too pained and outraged by these recent revelations of the senseless killing of innocents especially the young and those unable to defend themselves. But I know such recurrent incidents have been vastly under reported and widespread.

So shed your tears and then steel your resolve because we're up against something more nefarious than we've yet to see in our country.

I will not name it because my spiritual beliefs do not allow me to do so.

There will be only unifying spiritual solutions to our collective conundrum, not political, linear, or dogmatic ones.

Grieve, Feel better soon, then proceed as you truly feel is appropriate but be outrageously creative about it because we need a whole new paradigm.

[DearAbby]

84. Thank you, you've given me much to think about

First, I'll cry.

[leftchick]

60. They Kill Babies, Toddlers, Pre-schoolers, Elementary Schoolers

High Schoolers, College kids, Mothers, Fathers, Sisters, Brothers, Grandmothers, Grandfathers, Great Grandparents. Oh and their animals too. Anyone left?

[lonestarnot]

69. Dogs and CATS! and the in-laws toooooo!

[Bouncy Ball]

65. ...

War hurts EVERYONE involved. It hurts the troops (injuries, deaths, post-traumatic stress disorder, etc), it hurts the people in the occupied country (loss of life, injuries, loss of livelihoods, homes, support networks--family, friends are scattered etc, education, infrastructure of their city and country).

It hurts those of us here who have not supported it because we felt that it was and is immoral.

It hurts the US also in terms of treasury. I don't need to remind anyone here how much this war has cost and is costing in plain old dollars, though it seems sort of crass to mention that on this thread.

It has justifiably hurt the credibility of the government in place who decided to wage the war. (The US government under the bush administration.)

I'd say the people most hurt by this are the Iraqis and the US troops and troops from other countries that are still there. You can't kill a person without losing a piece of yourself. And there are Iraqis who have lost everything. There are American parents and spouses here and in other countries who have lost their everything, too.

It's a lose-lose all around. These atrocities just make the losses worse. Makes everything worse.

This war was started by choice by "men" who have never experienced war. That's no excuse, however. I've never experienced war, but I know enough to know it's not something you CHOOSE to enter into.

They opened that box.

[opihimoimoi]

66. Worse, they are KILLING the PEACE, the FUTURE, and our AMERICAN NAME

Our Respect, our Credibility, and our Spirit..."They" (BUSHCO) are to BLAME for all this CRAP....

Bush will go down in history as the most fucked up Prez the WORLD has ever had...He blew it big time...had the prime op to do good but chose Conflict instead...

and,.....his choice of crew was a disaster....

not one iota of good news from his dude,

all empty promises...and excuses too

[Bouncy Ball]

88. Let me just also say that

a troop CAN refuse to follow an unlawful order. If a service member is ordered to shoot a child (a non-combatant, in other words), they CAN refuse to follow such an order, under the premise that it is an unlawful one. And it would be. And there are MANY service members who would, indeed, refuse such an order, and take whatever consequences may come as a result.

However, if we are talking about troops who are already suffering a lot of psychological damage, the likelihood of them refusing such orders tends to drop.

Unfortunately.

Note: I am NOT providing excuses for such things. There are not really any. Just trying to help anyone reading to understand how such things could happen. If it's possible to understand such atrocities. :-(

[DearAbby]

95. I want to make it clear...

That I am not attacking the troops.

My anger is, to those that led us into this situation, who placed them there. Making them do two, three, four tours of duty in a combat zone.

Those that lied, for greed and power. Those, who are just using our troops, our young kids as shields, for their business adventure.

God knows what they are going through.

But I can not imagine, or will I ever condone, someone following the order to kill innocent people.

They are guilty of a war crime. Period end of story. And should face a trial and except the judgement. Pay for those actions.


My guilt in this matter, is what I will do, this day forward. Will I sit, and do nothing? Then I am no better than the person, who pulled the trigger.

again I ask:
The blood is on my hands now. What am I going to do about it?

[stellanoir]

100. That is only for you to know and realize my presumed friend.

But in my heart and soul I know you would not be feeling the intensity of you what you are feeling now if it were not that you CAN do something. You may not know what it is right now but I have enormous faith that you will figure it out over time. It may take some deep introspection and reflection on the nature of your soul.

Funny though I was foolishly personalizing computer, mechanical, dental, environmental hassles recently and I had said to a very young friend, " I know intellectually that I shouldn't be personalizing these things that are not at all personal really. He said "SO STOP."

Would that it were that easy.

You think you have "blood on your hands" due to the country of your origin and nativity only.

These atrocities occurred having nothing remotely to do with your personal volition. As I quoted before, "we are under a rogue regime."

They have systematically obliterated our voting rights thereby doing so to our voices and we need to seek out non linear approaches. They are in no way any longer a representative legislature. I know we can rectify things together. And you wouldn't' feel so passionately about it if you were not a part of the solution. Take that in and get some rest.

Peace

[stepnw1f]

107. Fucked Up... The SOldiers are Cracking

and Abu Gharaib is just a link in a chain of events moving steadily towards worse. Wake up America. This war was illegal in the first place and doomed to ever succeed. It's all bullshit and people are dying for the wealthy Republican elite.

[DearAbby]

108. I wish to thank all of you, who came to my aid

There have been only a few times I had cried like that.

I don't cry easily, usually when I do, It means I am very angry.
friends and family had learned, if they had pushed me to tears, to worry about what comes after them.

Up thread it was mentioned to get a grip...I'll get one. I am not down yet.

I will not apologize for feeling these feelings. They are what makes the difference between human beings, and animals.

Everytime some backwash mentions the glorious war against terrorism, to me. I will ask them to define terrorism, and show them, those that are terrorists, are the ones running our government.

Thank you DU for being there for me.
:grouphug:

[hopeisaplace]

110. You inspired me to write a little something

I PAINT YOU
By Me (just wrote this)

I sit hear crying in the chair of my well painted life
at the drawing that is yours
where is your color?
My three shades of green sing peace to me
until I see your screaming walls of black
While watching you stare blankly into what was
I am surrounded by what is
loss that is not mine
loss that I own
your sketch is my freedom
seeking absolution is my canvas
I paint you
_______________


I suffer inside with all that's going on.

[DearAbby]

111. Thank you.

:hug:

[Jeffersons Ghost]

114. Cindy Sheehan was "just a woman" not a leader. what did she do?

kicked and recommended

[BrklynLiberal]

115. It is breaking all our hearts....

[EnfantTerrible]

117. On the Ides of March

http://www.chris-floyd.com/isahaqi/

[DearAbby]

123. So Just when do the Iraqi people

start tossing flowers and showing their gratitude for their liberation?

How many more stories such as this, is going to come out? I wish I could wake up from this nightmare.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

119. I'm with you, Abby

I heard about Haditha and the newest revelation of a US "mini- My Lai " massacre of civilians in Iraq, at Ishaqi-- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5039420.stm -- plus the murders of those innocent women and kids, and I honestly feel physically sick to my stomach. I do sympathize with the tremendous stresses of the soldiers, but I feel ill at what's happening in our name in the Middle East. I feel so much for those poor Iraqis-- if only they know how many of us in the US detest the war that Bush, Rice, Rumsfeld and the others got us into.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

120. Site on emigration possibilities from US to Europe and elsewhere

I've been hearing this topic come up A LOT lately, and no doubt in part because compassionate people in the US can no longer abide the things that are being done in our name. Again, more than one of my old friends has been advising, to go and get a coursepack (software or books/tapes) on European languages like Italian, French, German, Spanish or Dutch in preparation for immigration to Europe as things fall apart economically in the US and we get dragged ever deeper into these bloody resource wars. Here's the site:

http://www.intemperance.net/carolyn/emigrate.html

Remember, as I always like to remind DUers, that if you do emigrate from the US, you can STILL VOTE here in US elections through absentee ballots and make at least some small contribution to changing things, however ineffectual it may seem these days.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

128. Another great site on this (also details on going to Latin America)

Lots of fun to wade through, with details on language, work permits, and of course, those all-important absentee ballots for US elections!

http://www.escapeartist.com/efan/efan.htm

I didn't realize how appealing South America is-- it's actually wealthier than I thought, technologically advanced but charming, with a decent living standard. In particular, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, parts of Colombia, Brazil and Venezuela seem great. Also, the Spanish language is relatively easy to master for native English-speakers, which definitely helps in adjusting to a new place like this-- you can even pick up as a professional using skills learned in the US, albeit with a year or two of extra training!

[alittlelark]

122. I have hit that wall as well..... multiple times.

I will re-double the efforts at sending e-mails to my congress critters (all uber liberaal), I make phone calls to family and friends, I speak LOUDLY at school, and make my horror known... I have gotten a number of ppl to REALLY look at the situation. I fervently believe that they are doing the same in their circles.

I am a torches and pitchforks progressive.

A few glasses of red wine help me when I spin down into the realization that we may not have enough time to save the world. The RW think-tanks were well funded by corporatists, and we are 10-20 years behind.


....another glass of red - then I will re-sharpen my pitchfork.

[Warren DeMontague]

126. Standing on the Moon.

Standing on the moon, I got no cobweb on my shoe
Standing on the moon, I'm feeling so alone and blue
I see the Gulf of Mexico as tiny as a tear
The coast of California must be somewhere over here
Over here

Standing on the moon, I see the battle rage below
Standing on the moon, I see the soldiers come and go
There's a metal flag beside me someone planted long ago
Old glory standing stiffly, crimson, white and indigo
Old glory standing stiffly, crimson, white and indigo
Indigo

I see all of South East Asia; I can see El Salvador
I hear the cries of children and the other songs of war
It's like a mighty melody that rings down from the sky
Standing here upon the moon I watch it all roll by
All roll by
All roll by
All roll by

Standing on the moon, I see a shadow on the sun
Standing on the moon, the stars go fading one by one
I hear a cry of victory, another of defeat
A scrap of age-old lullaby down some forgotten street

Standing on the moon, where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon, but I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco on a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven at this crescent in the sky
In the sky

Standing on the moon with nothing left to do
A lovely view of heaven but I'd rather be with you
A lovely view of heaven but I'd rather be with you
Be with you
I'd rather be with you.

http://www3.clearlight.com/~acsa/songfile/STANDOMO.HTM

[donheld]

127. "WHO CAN SHOOT A BABY?"

The same ones who would ban abortions for any reason. I'm not cynical or anything. :eyes:

[DearAbby]

129. This is getting to be

a real long thread, and pretty soon I will have trouble coming here. (dial-up)

But I keep coming back, it's the place I started my rant. I'll keep coming back, trying to put into words what I feel.

Knowing now, what I know. It is like, I have to get it out of me, I fear it will fester within me, rotting me inside out.

Telling it, to you like minded people. At least, you won't think I'm crazy.

[BlooInBloo]

131. I wouldn't worry about it. It's just a fetus.

:sarcasm:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1322087#1322577

[Control-Z]

132. I feel the same

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2639956

[Ganja Ninja]

134. I'll tell you exactly why this type of stuff is happening.

Let me preface this by saying this is not a defense for killing indiscriminately. I'm merely trying to describe what may be going on in the minds of the people we have sent to this hell hole

Put yourself in the place of these troops. You're on your second or third deployment to Iraq. Everybody hates you and you're threatened on all sides. You never know where the next attack is coming from. You're sick of the place and so fed up you can't see straight. You want to go home and you want to go home in one piece. On top of all this the people who sent you there don't give a damn about you. They are only concerned with the outcome of the next election.

Having your life on the line constantly can start to piss you off after awhile. If you were in that position you might be inclined to fight and kill as you see fit and say fuck anybody who doesn't like it. If it bothers them that much they can go over and fight the war themselves.

Our guys have been there too long. They've been hardened and numbed to the violence. This type of stuff is going to become more and more prevalent as time goes on. We've got a problem in our military. We need to get out NOW! The people who did this have committed criminal acts no doubt. But trying to pretend you can change the mindset of these guys with a power-point presentation is delusional and irresponsible.

[suegeo]

136. And pretty soon, they'll be coming home!

There's got to be some kind of therapy for this...

In the past, the monks would take in shell-shocked people for YEARS before they would return to society.

Well no more. Thanks for nothing, Republicans.

[undergroundpanther]

137. There is no therapy for trauma

The Iraqis have PSTD the soldiers have PSTD they are bringing home..All the therapy in the world cannot fix trauma..
Trauma scars the brain.War is a racket.A racket that ruins human beings and trust.It's profitable and like the milgram experiments show,people obey authority.They just do,when there are alot of people responsibility gets defused so NOBODY ACTS. Why things happen like this can only be a fatal flaw inside human beings. WEe have to over come this behavioral flaw.We have to learn to lead ourselves regardless of the actions or inactions of others or numbers.WE have to stop bystanding..and waiting for leaders to tell us how to act..in our own interests.. WE need to be bold enough to disregard leaders and authorities regardless .We will not have the kind of peace and fairness we dream of until we EACH risk it all for the kind of society we want.Leaders, authoritarian bullies ,con men ,manipulators and thugs will lead the society if the people of said society continue to refuse to lead themselves for themselves.

WE need to refuse to follow orders, refuse to let our sons and daughters go to war, and soldiers need to REFUSE orders.The war will stop when people refuse to play Bush's sick little game of lets you (us)and him(Iraq.Iran) fight

And Bush-co needs to be run out of the white house.
The founding fathers would not have tolerated this shit.
Why do we?

[Ksec]

138. Save American fetuses, murder Iraqi babies.

The right wing mantra.

[gizmo1979]

144. Wow

is there a video.Calm down and take a breath,were they shooting at the woman or was she hit by a stray.Where did you get the info.Sorry my question mark is broken.