Is Karl Rove advising Venezuela's Hugo Chavez?

[DFW]

Chavez just asked for it to be OK under Venezuelan law
for him to be president for the next 25 years. It wasn't
clear from his language if he meant he shold have the chance
to be re-elected often enough to serve that long, or if he meant
that he should now be declared president for the next 25 years,
and to hell with any further elections during that time.

It doesn't matter. To even bring that into play is to suggest
he is putting himself into the same category as Castro, Mugabe,
Kim Jong Il, and all the other Ozymandias wannabes.

He just went from someone who at least could say he stood up to
Bush the bully to being someone whose motto now seems to be "I
got the oil, I got the power, and I'm smarter than Saddam."

What a waste. Bush may be jealous, but let him be. My bet is that
if Chavez has himself named president for the next 25 years, that
he meets a violent end at the hands of his own people, without
the secret services of the USA so much as lifting a finger.

Maybe he ought to see Woody Allen's "Bananas."

[northzax]

1. he's just threatening people

he's not really going to do it. I mean, why have a constitution if you can change it to meet the temporary whims of the people?

oh, and where is that $20 billion missing from oil exports again?

[corporate_mike]

44. I think Hugo is seriously consider staying in power for the next 50 yrs

Like all other dictators.

[Robbien]

2. Totally bogus

The President proclaims an end to warlordism (caciquismo) of those that "used to rob public monies and manipulate the people ... that false democracy is dead ... we have to construct participative democracy and the councils must play an essential role."

The media, however, has preferred to highlight one of the President's remarks during the Cabinet that if the opposition boycotts the December 3 elections, then he will call a referendum asking the nation to decide if it wants him to govern till 2031.

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=56243

[AllieB]

8. Thank you.

I'm sick of people quoting right-wing media sources to paint Chavez as a dictator.

[mom cat]

21. Agreed. The Chaves bashers will latch onto anything.

[eallen]

14. So it's true. Your post title contradicts what you then say.

[LoZoccolo]

23. So how will he know there's been a boycott?

Sounds like he'll be the judge of that for himself. I think I already know what he'll rule!

[originalpckelly]

3. Even though Hugo Chavez doesn't like the President...

it doesn't mean he is an ally. We should never look beyond our borders to find allies on domestic issues. If Chavez were the President of the USA we would have impeached him long ago. He may not be the devil, but he isn't an nice guy. When people team up with dictators, it reflects poorly upon them. I would advise people to not trust Chavez whatsoever.

[peacetalksforall]

10. I am the opposite. I measure the sincerity and the actions of a person

who appears to be lifting up little people.

Of course, I'll hold back and hope I won't be disappointed. For now, I am satisfied in my support of him because of the actions of our right wing administration against him partnered by the big oil companies.

They definitely attempted a coup and had a success that lasted a few hours. They continue to conduct a non-stop campaign against him.

It's obvious to note that they are stymied by the resistance of a leader of Venezuela to not play along with the business and usury interests of big oil companies and their political partners along with the military and intelligences agents who cooperate with them.

I've seen all the proof I need to want to support him. I have been appalled for the 30 plus years that I have observed the predatory manipulation of this country and the buying of their presidents.

I believe that Otto Reich, Negraponte, Rice, and all the others are planning their next coup against him and I am outraged at our use of our money by these people. I deeply despise people who can't let other countries survive without takeovers and we know what they want to take over - oil, gold, and other earth resources, plus they don't want peons to be educated and have a full stomach because there is less control over them.

I carry a list of all the Citgo gas stations and make sure I go to them first, unless it means using too much gas to get there. Most of the time, I plan errands to buy Citgo and boycott Exxon (who still hasn't paid their Alaska clean-up fees), Mobil, Chevron, Shell, etc.

With pride - I support Chavez - but I don't go overboard because leaders have a way of disappointing. As long as the news is good out of Venezuela that a country with one of the widest ratio of riches vs poverty is thriving in education, improved health, basics, and greater opportunities for reaching their human potential and as long as the wealthy who made fortunes out of alliances with the right wing are still living in their estates in Florida and Spain and minding their own business - I'll support him as a breath of fresh air. But always with an edge of watching.

[pretzel4gore]

11. he was pulling yer leg man...

pushing yer buttons, painting yer rooster, soaping yer windows, snapping yer undersilks etc!
President Hugo is known for his humourous teasing of nazipoohs and grumpy sorts, so rest assured, he aint gonna declare hisself presidente for life!
now if we could elect him presidente for life, maybe he'd be amenable.....(?) :shrug: :wow:

[Pastiche423]

12. "...team up with dictators..."

UH, what dictators are you referring to?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

27. Question: will they still like him five years from now?

If not, then they're SOL for twenty more years!

[digno dave]

40. Chavez apologists make me wanna puke

The Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend theory is for desperate people.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

48. It's pretty funny.

Now that Chavez is doing exactly what the "Chavez bashers" said he was going to do all along, the apologists have switched from saying "he wouldn't do that!" to "It's *good* that he did that."

Sad. I like a lot of the man's policies. It's just too bad that Chavez is the one implementing them.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

72. I'm inclined to agree.

I think that if Hugo Chavez were to drop dead of a heart attack tomorrow his legacy to Venezuela would be almost entirely positive, and he currently clearly does have a democratic mandate, but I think it is increasingly becoming clear that he has no intention of leaving power when that ceases to be the case, as it inevitably will (the main worry I have about his policies are that they appear to be alarmingly short-termist in many cases), and the failure of many DUers to recognise this, and their determination to support him simply because he's opposed to Bush, worries me.

[IntravenousDemilo]

4. My eyebrows went up too, when I heard that.

And I hope he didn't mean that he should be declared president till 2031, because that would be a very very very very very very very very very very very very very very bad thing for him to do -- that is, if he wants to be taken seriously by progressives the world over.

[Judi Lynn]

69. Hope this will clear the matter up for you.

It looked like quite a few freeples were disoriented while reading the AP article recently, and refused to get a better sense of it, no matter how many DU'ers told them they were completely off base.

Here's an article ON THAT ARTICLE which might help the slow learners. One can only hope.

Associated Press Falsely Portrays Chavez as Seeking 25-Year Term

Monday, May 08, 2006

By: Justin Delacour - Latin America News Review

A little scrutiny of a recent Associated Press report about Venezuela provides a lesson in how the English-language press often gets the story wrong. Take the first sentence: "President Hugo Chavez said Saturday that Venezuelan voters should have the chance to decide whether he should govern the country for the next 25 years."

No, such a referendum would not be about "whether he should govern the country for the next 25 years." A referendum would be about whether Chavez would be permitted to run every six years and --in the event that he were to continue winning elections-- serve multiple presidential terms. The AP report's opening sentence makes it sound as if such a referendum would do away with elections in Venezuela, as if its intent would be to grant Chavez a new 25-year term in office! The website of The Calgary Sun even titles the wire report "Chavez seeking 25-year term"!!

This is obviously an extremely poor piece of reporting. Chavez made it clear that, if the opposition committed to participating in the upcoming presidential election, he would not convoke a referendum to end presidential term limits. He explained that the intent of his threat to convoke such a referendum was not to perpetuate himself in power but rather to defend the Bolivarian Revolution.

Fortunately, Agence France Press (AFP) got the story right. The opening sentence of AFP's Spanish-language report reads, "Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez claimed Saturday that, if the opposition decides not to run candidates in the December presidential election, he could decree a referendum to permit his reelection for multiple terms until 2031."
(snip/...)

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1723

[Donald Ian Rankin]

73. I think they're giving Chavez slightly too easy a run.

While the ability to stand for multiple terms is not *in itself* a bad thing (here in the UK we don't have term limits at all), I think it's another danger sign that Chavez has no intention of surrendering power in the forseeable future, even if/when he ceases to have a democratic mandate to wield it.

The ability to run with multiple terms will, I suspect, be coupled with increasingly biased elections and suppression of opponents as his popular support decreases.

If he were to die of a heart attack tomorrow, Chavez's legacy would undoubtedly be positive, but I will be (pleasantly) very surprised if this is still the case when he leaves power.

[peacetalksforall]

5. Provide the context for this statement from Chavez. Audience?

Audience reaction (laughing or not)? Level of seriousness? Pre and post context? Press called specifically for this announcement or an insertion in a speech?

I need circumstances to give an opinion on your question.

[killbotfactory]

59. Context would be nice

I wonder why the original report lacked it?

[unblock]

6. he's ONLY talking about removing term limits

to let him have a third term.

no big deal.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

74. Oh, only that.

It'll surely be great when Bush does the same thing.

[Minstrel Boy]

7. no, but some posters here are certainly taking their cues

from him. Chavez is suggesting raising term limits to get the opposition to actually participate in elections. This is what democracy looks like, Bolivarian style. And it's the best the world has right now.

"What a waste," indeed.

[Rex]

9. Yeah he will meet his end, just like Castro.

Now that the RW seems unable to illegally overthrow Chavez rule, they try and pull an old trick from Uncle Sam's hat. The RW would just LOVE people to believe that Chavez is following a traditional Latin American role - populist leader, turned revolutionary, becomes a warlord, yadda yadda yadda. So much hype and so wrong to boot. The West will always hold a special hate for Castro and I predict Chavez will follow in his footsteps BECAUSE of the West doing the exact same thing they did in Cuba.

:eyes:

[HysteryDiagnosis]

13. I wonder how many socialist rulers would have gotten on our hit

list were it not for large corporations whose greedy eyes cast glances far beyond our own borders.

[eallen]

20. Hmm. So Soros poured $$$ into opening east Europe, so he could sell there?

In Soros's view, and mine, there are strong connections between a liberal polity and a liberal economy. It's easy to suggest that the motivation then is greed. For the corporation, of necessity, it is. The people involved can have a broader view. Yes, there are drawbacks to the consumer economy. Yes, there is reason to regulate corporations. But don't underestimate the poverty of living where corporations and consumer economy are absent. Corporations will profit more in east Europe now that the people there are free.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

34. The people of Iraq are free, it's their economy that was taken

hostage....

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/19293/
The (New and Improved) Bremer Orders

A sampling of the most important Orders demonstrates the economic imprint left behind by Bremer:

Order #39 allows for the following: (1) privatization of Iraq's 200 state-owned enterprises; (2) 100 percent foreign ownership of Iraqi businesses; (3) "national treatment" of foreign firms; (4) unrestricted, tax-free remittance of all profits and other funds; and (5) 40-year ownership licenses. Thus, it allows the U.S. corporations operating in Iraq to own every business, do all of the work, and send all of their money home. Nothing needs to be reinvested locally to service the Iraqi economy, no Iraqi need be hired, no public services need be guaranteed, and workers' rights can easily be ignored. And corporations can take out their investments at any time.

Order #40 turns the banking sector from a state-run to a market-driven system overnight by allowing foreign banks to enter the Iraqi market and to purchase up to 50 percent of Iraqi banks.

Order #49 drops the tax rate on corporations from a high of 40 percent to a flat rate of 15 percent. The income tax rate is also capped at 15 percent.

Order #12 enacted on June 7, 2003 and renewed on February 24, 2004, suspends "all tariffs, customs duties, import taxes, licensing fees and similar surcharges for goods entering or leaving Iraq, and all other trade restrictions that may apply to such goods." This led to an immediate and dramatic inflow of cheap consumer products, which has essentially wiped out all local providers of the same products. This could have significant long-term implications for domestic production as well.

[eallen]

15. Castro deserves a special hate. Make no excuse for tyrants.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mika]

29. Cuba does have an elected government.

I know that this fact makes uninformed American heads explode, but it is so. (Can hardly blame them though because Americans are travel banned from Cuba by their own government, so they can't really see the place or meet Cubans in Cuba easily & legally. So most Americans rely on their own government and its paid minions, that have a declared and well funded mission to overthrow the government of Cuba, for their info on the island. Sad, really.)

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

I witnessed an entire election season in Cuba during the 1997-98 season.

http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[killbotfactory]

42. It's quite obvious that the US can't get honest coverage of Cuba

I'm sure the same is true when it comes to any of our "enemies"

[Freddie Stubbs]

46. So did the Soviet Union

[killbotfactory]

55. With a turnover rate higher than our current congress

[Freddie Stubbs]

58. What was the turnover rate?

;shrug:

[killbotfactory]

60. I can't find the statistics

There are a lot of references to it, though:
http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/01/04/orange-suits-soon-all-the-rage-on-capitol-hill/

There's a lot more on google if you search for: turnover rate congress politburo

[Freddie Stubbs]

64. Does a higher turnover rate mean better representation?

Are the governemtns of states like Florida (which has term limits) more representative than one like Minnesota (without term limts)?

[Mika]

28. About 10,000,000 Cubans disagree with you.

But, who cares what the Cuban people think - Americans always know better.
:sarcasm:



Been there. Seen it.

[eallen]

30. Elections mean nothing, where there is no free speech and press.

The Soviet Union had elections. Elections don't mean squat, where there isn't freedom of speech and press. When Cuba has freed its political prisoners and allowed open dissent for a few years, then you can stand up and start to talk about its democracy. Until then, you're just fooling yourself.

Yes, I'm a liberal. And I'm going to stand up for liberal values.

[Mika]

32. So, you've been to Cuba when?

You see, I've been there many times. Seen dissenting political parties functioning, read Cuban independent press, seen international media being consumed by Cubans of all ilk. I shouldn't believe my lying eyes? The Cuba you describe isn't the real Cuba. You are fooling yourself (or, you've been fooled).

[eallen]

33. I guess Amnesty International is lying, then?

Here is their report on Castro's 2003 crack-down on dissidents:

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/ENG-AMR250172003

Here is their call for the release of the political prisoners:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250022005

[Mika]

36. AI ignores the fact that these "dissidents" are in the employ of the US..

.. and that they are agents aiding and abetting the declared enemy of the Cuban state (the US). AI is reporting that these persons are "dissidents" when in fact they are paid agents of an enemy state (not to mention that many are also on the payrolls of miamicubano exile groups with long histories of ops and support for terror ops againt Cuban interests & citizens IN Cuba). Not all dissidents in Cuba are the same. Cuba has plenty of domestic dissident political parties and political organizations who are not on the US payroll, and who decry the fake US paid so called "dissidents" who undermine the legitimate domestic opposition parties and orgs. Oswaldo Paya, Elizardo Sanchez, and Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo -all leaders of domestic Cuban opposition movements openly operating- say that the US paid so called "dissidents" mission is to discredit real domestic movements. The US paid movements are scorned in Cuba by the vast majority of Cubans in Cuba.

Recognizing that there are legitimate (as in: non foreign paid agents) domestic opposition would mean recognizing that there is dissent and opposition movements operating in Cuba who are not harrassed nor arrested - that wouldn't fit into the US fabricated mold that Cuba is some kind of dissent free country or that no dissent is legal or that opposition parties are all rounded up or arrested.

Anti Castro politics is an industry in Florida & Washington, and it is the platform of most all Florida politicians that yields much campaign cash - and in turn said politicians direct much US taxpayer money to the many dozens of Cuban exile anti Castro organizations and foundations and news agencies who kick back comtributions and support propaganda in order to provide "justification" to continue their funding streams. The NED, USAID, Cubanet, CANF, Casa Bacardi, the Cuba Transition Project are all instruments of this agenda. Unfortunately, much of AI's information about Cuba comes from these sources.

I've been to Cuba and seen that there are opposition parties and organizations in Cuba who are not on the US payroll. They operate legally and openly within the political structure in Cuba - their representational parliamentary system.


I used to believe most of the anti Cuba propaganda UNTIL I went there and saw the place for myself. I was rather shocked at what I saw. I have been to Cuba (legally) many times learning more each time. I know a lot about the place and the political climate there. Cuba is poor, but there is a representational political system there. The vast majority of Cubans support their system of government. Even the annual CIA report on Cuba admits this.

[eallen]

38. Assuming that is true, that justifies their imprisonment?

[Mika]

45. Aiding and abetting declared enemies usually is.

Especially if said enemies are engaging in, supporting, & harboring perpetrators of acts of terrorism that have resulted in the deaths of citizens.

The US government and several Miamicubano exile organizations have long histories of such activities against Cuba, Cubans, and the Cuban Head of State.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

47. Don't put any stock in this crap.

The Chavez/Castro zombies take every opportunity to slam Amnesty International for having the gall to take issue with some of the "freedoms" provided by their glorious peoples' revolution. The only negative critiques they provide come from the websites of pro-Chavez and pro-Castro organisations. Independent observers of NGOs are not in agreement with the propogandists.

[400Years]

49. funny how the OP can't even post a link so as to inflate the "quote"

and let the pro-corporate oligarchy types latch on to anything, no matter how flimsy, that may help them claim Chavez is a dictator. How pathetic.

[killbotfactory]

56. I've glanced at the HRW site about Cuba

Half of their complaints are about our actions in Guantanamo.

HRW and Amnesty do important services by questioning the actions of governments all over the world, but their word is not gospel.

[rman]

53. Suppose that during the Cold War there'd be Russians trying to undermine

the US political system...

[eallen]

65. Remember Gus Hall? Being a communist was legal in US, during Cold War.

Communists could and did run for president. Communists could and did receive funds from foreign communist organizations. Just as Islamic groups now receive money from the mideastern nations.

Being a liberal, I not only support freedom of speech, press, and association, I view those as prerequisite to democracy. It's one of the reasons that I cannot view the reconstructed Afghanistan as a democracy. I'm not going to make an exception for socialist states.

[rman]

54. Don't believe just anything the corporate media tell you.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

24. There's no excuse for a 25-year term of leadership.

Someone with that long could do anything they wanted to and not be held accountable for a very long time if at all.

[BuyingThyme]

37. Chavez apparently believes in democracy more than you do.

It takes an American to be so arrogant.

[LoZoccolo]

39. So?

I'd rather have a more limited democracy that protects people from doing fucked-up things to themselves the way we do here in America. Imagine Bush* putting things like the fourth or eight amendments up on a referendum a week after 9/11. Imagine Bush* putting a twenty-five year presidential term on himself right after the Iraq War started out. We don't have strict majority rule here, and that's good, because we have minority rights as well.

Anyways, there's no arguing with someone who's willing to defend someone about to give themselves 25 years to rule one way or another, so I might not be back for this one. But yeah, this is so how radical left-wing governments go to shit, one "necessary" measure at a time with the apologists running snarky and self-righteous commentary on the detractors at the least, beheading them and shit at the worst.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

25. How will Chavez know that they did or didn't participate?

I think he's going to be the decider there.

[rman]

51. Kinda like how Repubs know Dems have participated

It's not very hard to find who is or isn't boycotting elections.

[killbotfactory]

57. Especially if those groups publicly announce their boycott

[LoZoccolo]

62. Then. Tell. Us. How.

Doesn't matter though; he's going to declare himself the decider no matter what happens.

[rman]

66. It's not a secret which parties participate in an election

[LoZoccolo]

26. Oops, you've been tombstoned.

They probably found out you were a sock puppet. I wonder what other account got nicked with you.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

22. The translation of the statement was either deliberately, or....

...accidently, bad. My vote is for deliberately.

[nick303]

31. Actual quote

"Aunque me acusen de que quiero perpetuarme en el poder, le voy a preguntar a todo el pueblo: está usted de acuerdo en que Hugo Chávez sea presidente de Venezuela hasta el año 2031, sí o no?"

He made his statement in very unclear terms. He says "I am going to ask everyone, are you in agreement with Hugo Chavez being president of Venezuela until 2031, yes or no?" This could imply that he means by removing term limits, although he does not explicitly say as much.

[digno dave]

41. even assuming he meant he could be "elected" in 5 yr. increments for the

next 25 years is boorish and ego maniacal.

[killbotfactory]

43. Then maybe the opposition shouldn't boycott the elections?

Heck, maybe even put up a candidate worth a damn.

[Judi Lynn]

70. In case you don't see this late addition up thread, I'll repeat it.

This might be helpful:

Associated Press Falsely Portrays Chavez as Seeking 25-Year Term

Monday, May 08, 2006

By: Justin Delacour - Latin America News Review

A little scrutiny of a recent Associated Press report about Venezuela provides a lesson in how the English-language press often gets the story wrong. Take the first sentence: "President Hugo Chavez said Saturday that Venezuelan voters should have the chance to decide whether he should govern the country for the next 25 years."

No, such a referendum would not be about "whether he should govern the country for the next 25 years." A referendum would be about whether Chavez would be permitted to run every six years and --in the event that he were to continue winning elections-- serve multiple presidential terms. The AP report's opening sentence makes it sound as if such a referendum would do away with elections in Venezuela, as if its intent would be to grant Chavez a new 25-year term in office! The website of The Calgary Sun even titles the wire report "Chavez seeking 25-year term"!!

This is obviously an extremely poor piece of reporting. Chavez made it clear that, if the opposition committed to participating in the upcoming presidential election, he would not convoke a referendum to end presidential term limits. He explained that the intent of his threat to convoke such a referendum was not to perpetuate himself in power but rather to defend the Bolivarian Revolution.

Fortunately, Agence France Press (AFP) got the story right. The opening sentence of AFP's Spanish-language report reads, "Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez claimed Saturday that, if the opposition decides not to run candidates in the December presidential election, he could decree a referendum to permit his reelection for multiple terms until 2031."
(snip/...)
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1723

[BrotherBuzz]

78. Let me guess...first story above the fold, front and center...

retraction/correction on page E-7?

[Judi Lynn]

82. It may be somewhere in the personals! n/t

[1932]

35. What's wrong with the 300-post thread in LBN unspinning this spin?

[rman]

52. If at first you fail, you try the same thing again,

and again...

[rman]

50. That's the RW spin version of the story

Chavez proposes a referendum on extension of term limits only under the condition of election boycot by the opposition.

That's quite different from "...law for him to be president for the next 25 years".

[LoZoccolo]

61. And he gets to decide whether or not the opposition boycotted.

How would someone even tell?

[killbotfactory]

63. If they don't run a candidate

Or they publicly proclaim they are boycotting, like they did last time.

seems like a good way to find out.

[burythehatchet]

67. T would love to know why a steaming thread like this does not get pulled

or placed into a special "Fiction" forum

[Minstrel Boy]

68. Please see this thread

for the answer of who's following Rove's advice:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1137162

[Judi Lynn]

71. I just saw your post, reading it overnight. I already posted the article

3 times at various spots, adding it to a thread in LBN, and twice to this thread, before I saw you found it earlier.

Sure hope some idjits take the time to read through it. It reinforces things DU'ers were saying a long tome ago on that interminably long thread, made long because they simply refused to comprehend what was actually said, even with people pointing it out for them.

I really wasn't trying to copy you without credit, and hoped to make sure you knew. Thanks.

[Minstrel Boy]

79. Good job, Judi Lynn

It's all about correcting the intentional errors.

http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/&/images3/venezuela/viva_chavez.jpe

[Judi Lynn]

81. That's a WONDERFUL photo. The artist has some skills! Thanks. n/t

[DFW]

75. I started this mess,

So I guess I need to own up that I may have jumped the gun due to
an article that was based on poor translation.

"Aunque me acusen de que quiero perpetuarme en el poder..."

Even IF THEY SHOULD accuse me of wanting to perpetuate myself in power.....

NOT "even though they accuse me of...."

"acusen" instead of "acusan" I hadn't seen the original text.

If Chávez is willing to cede power in a fair election, then my premise for the
original post was wrong. If not ,then it stands, but it doesn't look like he was
making the case for a president-for-life post after all. Nonetheless, I would be
more encouraged to see Venezuela's oil income start to make a difference in the
status of the slums of Caracas and the general well-being of the poor that Chávez
so brilliantly portrays himself as defending.

I've been to Cuba as well, but just once, and nearly a quarter century ago. If there are
dissenting parties tolerated, then things have certainly changed. When I was there,
none were allowed, and even though there at the invitaton of the government, I was
followed everywhere I went, and nearly gave a saleswoman a heart attack after I
interpreted back and forth from Russian to Spanish for her and some Soviet guests,
and then showed her my American passport as was required at the hard currncy shop,
even for a purchase of post cards (my only purchase while there--big spender, I know!).

I was trailed around as if I were on a mission for the CIA (I wasn't, and I'm not).
When the government agency invited me to dinner, it was at a fancy restaurant where
the meal must have cost more than most Cubans were earning in a year. I was accosted
on a street by some kid who said he had an uncle in the USA who sent him stuff, but
the packages were always empty when they got there. Relatives had told him that the
packages only contained food and clothing, but he never saw any of it. He took off
when he saw strangers approaching. It was one very weird feeling, although the
government people I was with insisted that while things were tight (except for them, so
it seemed), that the meager resources of the country were as democratically distributed
as could be. I wish I had the time to check more and find out, but my stay there was for
one strictly cultural visit, and when it was done, I was to leave, which I promptly
did.

[Judi Lynn]

77. There is at least one Florida DU'er who sends packages to her friends

in Cuba all the time. She's an old hand at it. She doesn't have any trouble getting her packages where they're supposed to go.

On this message board, there are MANY people who've been to Cuba multiple times, and who communicate regularly with friends there.

By the way, I missed the link you seem to see between the bungled Venezuela story and Cuba.

[Douglas Carpenter]

76. The media tell lies about Chavez? I'm shocked too!!

If anyone of us tried to practice the degree of freedom of expression that is openly expressed in Venezuela 24 hours a day/7days a week -- we would be in a lot of trouble very fast.

In spite of the fact that the local private elite-owned media is overwhelmingly hostile to the point of having supported force and violence against the popular democratically elected government. This is something that would never be allowed in the U.S. media or almost anywhere else for that matter

link:

http://mondediplo.com/2002/08/10venezuela


snip: "Never even in Latin American history has the media been so directly involved in a political coup. Venezuela’s ’hate media’ controls 95% of the airwaves and has a near-monopoly over newsprint, and it played a major part in the failed attempt to overthrow the president, Hugo Chavez, in April. Although tensions in the country could easily spill into civil war, the media is still directly encouraging dissident elements to overthrow the democratically elected president - if necessary by force."

snip:

"After Chávez came to power in 1998, the five main privately owned channels - Venevisión, Radio Caracas Televisión (RCTV), Globovisión and CMT - and nine of the 10 major national newspapers, including El Universal, El Nacional, Tal Cual, El Impulso, El Nuevo País, and El Mundo, have taken over the role of the traditional political parties, which were damaged by the president’s electoral victories. Their monopoly on information has put them in a strong position. They give the opposition support, only rarely reporting government statements and never mentioning its large majority, despite that majority’s confirmation at the ballot box. They have always described the working class districts as a red zone inhabited by dangerous classes of ignorant people and delinquents. No doubt considering them unphotogenic, they ignore working class leaders and organisations."

snip: ""Take to the streets" thundered El Nacional on 10 April (in an unattributed editorial). "Ni un paso atrás! (not one step backwards)" responded the hoardings on Globovisión. Another TV company broadcast: "Venezuelans, take to the streets on Thursday 11 April at 10am. Bring your flags. For freedom and democracy. Venezuela will not surrender. No one will defeat us." The call to overthrow the head of state became so obvious that the government applied Article 192 of the telecommunications law. More than 30 times -for all television and radio channels - it requisitioned 15-20 minutes’ air time to broadcast its views. But the broadcasters divided the screen in two and continued to urge rebellion."
__________________


I would be very suspicious of all this U.S. media concern about Chavez's human rights record which incidently has improved dramatically since his government took office. And for the record Chavez's record with any credible, independent human rights groups is no worse and probably not as bad as the U.S. and many other western democracies and far worse than that of the leading receipients of U.S. Aid.

http://www.globalissues.org/HumanRights/Media/Propaganda/Venezuela.asp

"Reporting on the ongoing issues, such as the protests and Chavez’s economic policies in Venezuela have shown similar signs of one-sidedness, from both the mainstream media of western countries such as the U.S. and U.K., and from Venezuela’s own elite anti-Chavez media, which “controls 95% of the airwaves and has a near-monopoly over newsprint, and ... played a major part in the failed attempt to overthrow the president, Hugo Chavez, in April 2002.... The media is still directly encouraging dissident elements to overthrow the democratically elected president — if necessary by force.”

And let's compare his record to the largest recepients of U.S. aid
Here are the three largest receipient of U.S. aid (after Iraq) in order. Feel free to compare them with Chavez's record which is not perfect but a lot better than any of these three.

link for Venezuela: http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=venezu

1. Israel - link:

http://hrw.org/doc?t=mideast&c=isrlpa

2. Egypt - link:

http://hrw.org/doc?t=mideast&c=egypt

3. Columbia - link:

http://hrw.org/doc?t=americas&c=colomb


and here is the report on the U.S.'s own human rights record:

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=usa
__________________________

Also the good people at FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting) on their weekly radio program Counter Spin did a special program regarding Hugo Chavez and the media on 3 March 2006.

Here is the link for downloading or listening online:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2832
_______________

The Venezuelan Revolution : 100 Questions-100 Answers



by Chesa Boudin, Gabriel Gonzalez, Wilmer Rumbos

Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1560257733/sr=1-1/qid=1145697377/ref=sr_1_1/002-1846545-3744063?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books

________________



http://www.dontattackiran.org

[Judi Lynn]

80. Excellent information to be found in your links. I'm saving your post

to study later today when I've got a good block of time. I've looked through your global issues link, and it contains really good links to other important material.

It would be too much to hope that, instead of claiming "Chavez should help the poor more," a completely ignorant remark, any DU'er wandering in a fact vacuum should invest some time simply reading the material which is available on the subject, just the way the rest of us do, who have learned enough already not to make such peculiar remarks!

Thank you so much for your very complete post, with great links.