Sexism/Misogyny online.

[ThomCat]

I was going to post this as a response in another thread, but then I thought this might be a good topic on it's own.

How is it that so many people can think they are not sexist, think they support women's rights, and yet be so obviously sexist and unsupportive online? I have been giving this a lot of thought because I know damned well that I constantly have to watch out for signs of sexism creeping into by behavior. Sexism is easy to fall into when it's implicit in so much of what goes on around you. I would never claim that I'm not sexist. I don't know if that's even truly possible in our society. So how can these other people be so entirely convinced, despite their online words, that they are not sexist?

I don't think it's just that are deluding themselves, though I think that's part of it.

I think the anonymity and the lack of repercussions has more to do with it, but not just in the way people keep saying. We've all seen discussions about how people get brave behind the shield of anonymity and distance. People get more confrontational and hostile online than they would in person. But what if they're not just being brave.

What if being online is making them careless, so instead of seeing bravado we're actually seeing a bit of truth?

In person we all regulate what we say and do, based on habit, manners, and what responses and reactions we anticipate. It's a reflex. Some people regulate themselves more than others, but everyone regulates themselves to some extent. I think that online, people let that self-regulation slip, so they say and do things that are more blatant than what they would do in person. In effect, we're seeing g behind the mask.

But (and I think this is important) people still base their self-image on how they act around people face-to-face. Their self-image is based on their regulated self off-line, not their less regulated self on-line.

My guess is that many of these people would never be that blatantly sexist face-to-face. They would self-regulate to only be blatantly sexist behind your back, where they consider it private. (that is an entirely separate discussion: people thinking that what they perceive as private somehow doesn't count) Because they truly think that their public-face off-line is not sexist they think that they really are not sexist.

In effect, they're believing their own publicity.

[Katherine Brengle]

1. I think you're right. The mask comes off

when you don't have to look into the other person's eyes.

[ThomCat]

2. But. that begs the question

how can they believe that they aren't sexist if we're seeing who they really are?

That's what constantly frustrates me. There is a definite disconnect there. I'm trying to climb partially inside their heads, I guess, to figure it out.

[Katherine Brengle]

3. I don't know.

Maybe they're lying. Maybe they're so indoctrinated by patriarchal views that their minimal ideas about the rights of women seem like feminism to them, even though they are beyond misogynistic?

I think both are likely, but the second is probably more common in liberal arenas.

[ismnotwasm]

4. One of the things I think happens

Is there is an unacknowledged or unaware libertarian slanted mind set (I have nothing against libertarians, exactly, I'm not one--not even close-- however my brother is) ie; pornography is a right, sex work is liberating and a viable and valuable option for women, all misogynist words are just dandy-- all the usual stuff.

Thrown in a lot, is the first amendment defense, along with accusations of censorship. What follows, is accusations of moral judgments as in "Pornography brings feminists and fundamentalists together" (An actual quote as seen on DU--probably a tee shirt somewhere.)Forgotten is the work feminist have done for women and this is saddest when it's forgotten BY women. Feminism has made it's mistakes, and to my mind one of the biggest was forgetting women of color, although much is being done to make up for this. The so-called "sex-positive" movement is another one. Like women haven't been having sex as long as men have. We'll just be positive about being male expectations of sexually availability 24/7. Gods.

What is nearly never acknowledged on DU by the apologists is that any system under patriarchy is broken. It's not working. It's never worked. We scramble along century after century with our highs and lows with half the population subjugated. I wonder where we would be if this wasn't so? If women were respected? Acknowledged as human partners, rather than placed early on in the categories fuckable or unfuckable. I digress.

When I use the term patriarchy, sometimes I feel it's considered a catch-all not quite understood word, rather than an broad description of how most of the world functions. The ones that gain under this system whatever their political beliefs of course think it's ok. They profit. Those that can't envision a different kind of world, of course defend the one they know, and it's my experience that scratching below the surface of this last type and you find simple fear of the unknown.

I've noticed the same thing you have Thomcat. The anonymity of on-line communication has it's version of road rage, much like being in a vehicle, it's a small contained universe where you're free to say whatever you want. Defend your darkest thoughts. Say things you wouldn't say to people face to face.

There are exceptions. I was talking to someone I know, he's a conspiracy theory person. I listened to him about 9/11, China, Economics, chemtrails. I listened to him right up to the point he said the ERA legislation was deliberately introduced to make women feel ashamed "of staying home an raising great kids" as part of a far reaching mind control plot. Those that defend sexism remind me of this guy, who is actually a nice person in his own way. I'm sure he means well.

[ThomCat]

5. There is an thread right now in one of the other forums

(I won't specify or link because that might be construed as calling someone out). It's about whether or not people consider themselves feminists.

Overall, it's a good thread. But a couple of guys are calling themselves feminists, while talking about how extreme feminists aren't really feminists.

The message, apparently, is that they are real feminists. That they're advancing women's rights, and "extreme feminists" aren't. Given the positions I've seen them argue, and that many of us here have argued against them, that's a shocking position for them to take. I wonder if they really believe that patriarchy exists, or what they think it is.

So that's another whole aspect of all of this that I guess I'm going to wrestle with. Not only am I wondering where their belief in themselves as feminists comes from, I'm going to be wondering what they think feminism is.

I don't like playing the "I'm a better ______ than you" game. Everyone who supports a cause belongs to that cause. But I swear that these guys don't really support that cause. I think they're anchors holding the cause back.

Perhaps the answer is that at some point you just stop trying to figure people out and just oppose the B.S. because it's B.S. I don't even know why I'm being introspective about this.

[ismnotwasm]

6. It good to think out

I do it a lot. I do a lot of self examination and self checking. I add up my life's experiences along with HOW I think when I draw conclusions, and I know, at the end of the day, it's still only my opinion.

But Thomcat, some things I feel in my gut, you know? Not absolute right or wrongs, but directions, purposes. I was looking for a sticky quote, and found one that doesn't fit, but it resonates with me

"As a woman I have no country. As a woman my country is the whole world."
—Virginia Woolf

That sums up HOW I think. I don't think locally, I find. And that may be the difference here, when an American or a "first world" nation is considering only American or first world women, there is a lot of playground. A lot of opinion that leaves out most of the world. It's why folks justify the things they do, and call it "freedom" or "feminism". A great denial tool.

I never used to consider myself a radical feminist. I woke up one day and found my opinions to be considered "extreme" or "radical". I thought, fine then. So be it. Let my freak flag fly.

[bliss_eternal]

7. The gut aspect is important.

Even on-line, there are times I've said to myself while reading something posted,"...this person is full of shit" or possibly "....this person is trying to push buttons" or..."...troll."

Just because those people last on this board and others, doesn't mean my gut is wrong. ;)

[gollygee]

8. Oh, a pet peeve!

Men who define "feminism" for us and decide which women are actually feminists based on what they want feminism to be.

IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU, GUYS!

[Katherine Brengle]

10. My husband made a remark about

"radical" feminism and how we should use a different word because it sounds crazy, like terrorism or something.

I told him to piss of because his opinion doesn't matter - it's not about him.

It took a long time to seep in.

[Katherine Brengle]

9. What a great post.

[atommom]

11. This is a fantastic post, and it sums up a lot of my problems with

sexism here at DU. I've had to back off and spend less time at DU lately, as I don't have the time or energy to be pissed off 24/7. :(