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Yo! Intelligent folk! Info please regarding Clinton and NAFTA and Unions

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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 09:45 PM
Original message
Yo! Intelligent folk! Info please regarding Clinton and NAFTA and Unions
oh my.

How much did NAFTA have to do with the Dems losing some of their union support?
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hmmmmmm I dunno but it did hurt dems in many areas I know
Even though the republican leadership supported it when Clinton introduced it and the democratic leadership like Gephardt opposed it. BTW Thats why I like Gephardt, he stood up to a lot of Clinton's not so progressive economic ideas.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm going to have to take this one
Edited on Tue Mar-08-05 10:00 PM by TayTay
and get some research on it. It goes back to '93 and the whole DLC -New Democrat debate. (Sigh!) And Ross Perot and 'the giant sucking sound' of USA jobs going down to Mexico. (And I have a bad cold and I am going to bed and I am not thinking clearly tonight.)

Plus, ahm, I have had major differences with some of my directly elected officials about this and their votes. (Big giant, oft repeated, sigh!) NAFTA, GATT and globalization have been a disaster as implemented. Certain elected officials claimed at the time that they would fix the glaring holes in the trade agreements with 'side agreements' which never f*cking happened. (But I'm not bitter! A few tabs of Prozac and I'm much better now. What the hell were you thinking, Senator? Whoops, looks like I need that Prozac again. Big giant, industrial streghth-sized sigh!)

Ahm, I will try and offer up something intelligent on this, but don't get your hopes up. I'm afraid some issues resist being de-personalized.

EDIT: Geez, how do I know you meant me. My cold is inflating my ego. My apologies.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I meant all y'all
We as a group are smarter than the average bear, methinks.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. Oh, uhm, everything
Maybe not everything, but NAFTA hurt like hell in many ways.

What really hurt, I think though, is that many people have grown more anti-union since the 70's. Democrats didn't do near enough to just support unions and labor rights, through the bully-pulpit kind of thing. People really came to believe in the right of a worker to negotiate their salaries based on merit, not seniority or contracts. Of course, one person is rarely good enough to negotiate a higher salary and the result is usually lower salaries for everybody. Democrats, as a party, just didn't stand up to some of this anti-union rhetoric I don't think.

Still, I understand the long term goals of trade agreements. Tech jobs that pay more here, crap jobs that don't need education in developing countries. Jobs and growing economies all around. Clinton, though, understood the need to continue investing in our own economy and forcing increased environmental and labor protections on the developing countries as time went on. Gore and Kerry got that too, I think. Bush and the crony capitalists see it as an opportunity to exploit the world.

As with Iraq, Patriot Act, NCLB; it's all in the implementation. Apparently the differences in the HOW of a policy is too nuanced for people to grasp.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-05 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yes, people have grown more anti union
Its a tragedy lemme tell you, I blame Reagan for that.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
6. Links, and stuff
http://www.issues2000.org/2004/John_Kerry_Free_Trade.htm#General
Okay, that is much better. I reinstate my :loveya:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-02-19-kerry-edwards-job_x.htm
Just a reference story from last year's primary fight.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041018&s=hayden
A little more lefty freeper than I like, but I am slightly lefty freeper on this. (But I did restore my :loveya: to Kerry. But I am not yet to where I can call him 'my esteemed Senator' on Free Trade issues. It's an evolving process. WEL will probably rebuke me harshly for breaking ranks and causing trouble. Oh Goodie.)

http://www.afsc.org/trade-matters/trade-agreements/NAFTA.htm
Leave it to the Friends: Every wonky thing you could ever want to know about Free Trade.

The SHORT Version: http://people.howstuffworks.com/election-issue10.htm
Cuz even I get tired of long wonky stories after a while.

IS THIS ENOUGH OR DO YOU WANT MORE?
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Youre not a lefty freep if youre just a far leftist
Lefty freeperism comes from how you act not your actual views.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. In addition to getting lower% of union, unions are much smaller
Part of the decline in the number of union jobs was that there was a major decline in manufacturing jobs. Other big unions like the Communications Workers of America (CWA) lost a huge number of workers due to improved technology. AT&T had thousands of operators, as recently as the late 1970s, you needed an operator to place an international call. Even the number of clerical workers, many of whom were in the union at AT&T, declined as well. In the 1970s, low level managers would write memos long hand and submit them to the typing pool. After many iterations, the document would be done. Now, the manager would do this on a PC.

Unions tried to compensate for this by unionizing low level government employees and people in service industries. They were not as successful in this.

There was, to my knowledge, no success in unionizing professional fields such as programming, accounting, analysts etc. In selling the idea of unionizing these professions, the unions could use the teacher's union as an example of professionals benefiting from being in a union. Only when they see that the CEOs of the companies do not have their interests at heart would a union succeed.

Even before global outsourcing, many companies went to hiring programmers as temporary employees. There were temporary employees I knew who worked for the same corporation for over 10 years. Hiring these people as temporary relieved the company of providing benefits. With enhanced cheap telecommunication and the Internet, companies can "buy" these services anywhere.

In terms of the balance of power between a knowledge worker and his/her employer the last decade may be a period of extraordinary change of the magnitude of the impact of the industrial revolution. At that time, you had a small number of employees in a city and a huge pool of potential workers. An individual had no power to negotiate a fair deal. The solution was a union where the combined power of the workers (who together were a needed component of production) could balance the power of the owners. Today there is a vast pool of global workers ready to sell their skills at prices (wages) very much lower than in this country.

Part of the problem legislators may have is that this issue is new enough that anything taught in an international economics or labor economics course even 10 years ago is probably outdated. My international economics course in the 70s glorified a day when trade barriers would be lower, countries would produce what they had a "comparative advantage" towards producing and this would end up maximizing utility functions. Trade barriers were clearly seen as a way to preserve economically non- viable industries at the expense of denying consumers cheaper alternatives. Senators voting to protect their local industries were considered to be just pandering for votes.

I realize that I really need to read the current economic literature, having read nothing on this for years - although I do read Krugman's columns.








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