"You can have anger toward people or you can have freedom from people..."

[BlueIris]

Discuss.

By way of explanation, here is the advice given by the FreeWillAstrology guy this week for the Pisces crew:

"'Anger or bitterness toward those who have hurt you will block your path to higher ground,' said inspirational author Vernon Howard. 'You can have anger toward people or you can have freedom from people, but you can't have both.' I suggest you make that one of your guiding thoughts in the coming week, Pisces. An undreamed-of burst of liberation is now possible for you if you compel yourself to experiment with radical generosity on the wild frontiers of forgiveness."

I'm not a Pisces, nor am I willing or able to fully embrace this attitude yet, as I am not done purging the anger I have toward the mean, abusive, and assholish people in this world doing hurtful things to me and others. Acceptance of past abuse is one thing--accepting the abuses which continue is another. I was hoping others here would share their thoughts about Vernon's idea, though, as it appears to be very popular around this board.

[Punkingal]

1. I agree with his statement....

Although I am far from being able to live that way myself yet, but I do work on it all the time.

To paraphrase Dick Sutphen, "It is not what people do to you, it is how you choose to react that is important." I believe that totally. How I respond and react is the only thing I have control over, and there is no doubt anger and bitterness is very debilitating emotionally and spiritually. My goal is to become better and better at rising above negativity and letting it flow past me.

[marions ghost]

2. we all wrestle with this question of forgiveness

...and to make matters worse the injuries and betrayals that people do to each other in the microcosm now seem to be magnified in the macrocosm. The abusive relationship we Americans are in with our present government continues on a daily basis. Should we forgive the exploiters, the dividers, the profiteers, the warmongers? Seems that would be giving them too much rope and inviting further aggression. Most liberals find it hard to "forgive" the current administration.

Those who find it easy to forgive have never been on the receiving end of true abuse in their personal lives IMO. But maybe everyone can relate to the question if they look at the level of political abuse in the US today. Where do you draw the line? How much can you tolerate? Is turning the other cheek working? How do you fight such abuse without losing your sense of equilibrium and becoming obsessed? To the idea that 'anger or bitterness ...will block your path to higher ground' I think most of us instinctively know this. It is so negative to hold onto anger and yet it's easier said than done to neutralize it, especially if the damage is big and there is no hope of any correction of the grievances. To give up the anger seems like giving in to being victimized. How can one take that anger which is blocking and turn it into something more positive?

I certainly don't have all the answers but I do understand the question, BlueIris. I have experienced serious life-altering betrayals and abuses, for no apparent reason other than being in the path of predators. This has happened to me about 4 times in my life (not including the current abuse by one's government)-- and I'm just about as full of scars as anyone going. I consider myself a strong individual who generally stays out of trouble. So WHY did this happen? In every one of these cases I concluded that I was an innocent victim...so the question is --what made me a target? What did I do wrong? Am I too trusting, too naive, in this treacherous world? How can I protect myself? In all these cases in my life there were others abused by the same forces, so it's easy for me to let myself off the hook as being responsible. I realize this is harder in one-on-one cases of abuse, which I have not experienced. There tends to be more self-blaming when the abuse is not shared. In one of the cases I mention above, the abuse was directed at both my spouse and me and having shared this, we have grown stronger together. I feel that in ANY case of serious abuse, a support group of some kind is needed. Nobody deserves abuse. But sometimes we are in a position to receive it, no matter what we do. Asking for help in dealing with it is a step to recovery.

So to the question of forgiveness. I find it hard too, and have still not let go of some grievances. The instances I speak of are over, except one which is still open (with no solutions in sight). You are right, this one is the hardest. Everyone who was victimized in this is damaged. This is a social crime so mean and twisted that nobody but a saint would advocate forgiveness. I don't know too many saints. It is easy to see that the perpetrator in this case is damaged and near insane (reminds me of our pResident). And yet at the same time living with the pain of what has occurred is crippling. There is no "legal" solution but there may still be reasonable action to take. I think doing things that counter what has been done may help, even if they are not directed toward the actual perpetrator. I'm talking about things which are a positive response and healing, nothing negative. But I have not sucessfully done that myself...yet.

What is there to gain in letting go of grievances? Well, you don't want to close down. You don't want to carry a burden that feels so heavy. You want to heal, and get beyond it. There is a lot of lip service given to forgiveness, so I guess some people manage to get there...has anybody out there felt that "undreamed-of burst of liberation" yet? What does "freedom from people" mean? Letting go of attachments in the Buddhist sense? How do you get freedom from people if you were taught to be responsive to people, to think of others, to be empathetic and all that good stuff? If you're nice to all people, sooner or later, you will be taken advantage of, I have found.

Anybody else have any insights in response to BlueIris' excellent question? Considering the abuse of power in the big picture, it is expecially relevant today and to people who call themselves progressive or liberal. We have been trampled by those we trusted. What can be learned from this for our daily lives?

[lildreamer316]

16. Mmmm..but you can't SKIP the steps.

You're right in the way you feel; marion's ghost. Remember that "to every thing there is a season"?(I'm big on the parable quotes today!) Righteous anger is not a bad thing (or it would not exist! really..). Every emotion is there for a reason. Righteous anger is there to help motivate a person to stand up for oneself and get done and said what needs to be done and said. You cannot skip the steps TO forgiveness. You are not expected to experience abuse and IMMEDIATELY forgive it every time. There have been people who could do such things--Jesus; Ghandi--but given their soul evolution; that obviously came very naturally to them. Don't any of you be too hard on yourself if you cannot perform this way--it probably takes lifetimes to achieve! The point with the above statement, I think; is to remind you what your goal is; and yes; to help you let go of the things you may be unnecessarily holding on to; things that could be impeding on your spiritual progress a the moment. If you believe in reincarnation; and that we are here learning certain things that we have mapped out for ourselves (or possibly deciding NOT to learn them a la the Secret--this is a point I'm a little confused on); then what you have the most difficulty letting go of is what you have not FULLY learned everything from yet. OR--the OTHER person has not learned THEIR full lesson yet. Remember,as we are learning; so are we teaching. Many of us have chosen tasks in our lives to help others learn their hard soul lessons--out of love. The abuser cannot fully learn his or her lesson without seeing the effect their abuse has had--the FULL impact. (which is why they will probably choose to be the victim in another lifetime--to learn that lesson well. Some souls manage to abuse and then realize the full impact in one lifetime.)
And yes; it is actually a "selfish" (I prefer self-loving) act to forgive another-but it DOES help the other person whether they know it or not (or "care"). It has been made ABUNDANTLY clear, though, that to help one's self IS to help the world. The Secret ties in here. You are only responsible for you and what you are creating. Hell; that's enough to keep anyone busy for a lifetime! I hate to say it this way, but you can feel slightly sorry for those who do not realize their role as they go about abusing and being destructive and hurtful. It is important to remember that these things that have happened are tools for growth. Look at it this way: if you've set yourself such hard lessons this time; it means you are willing to learn quickly--so as to get it "out of the way" per se. I think you've got some fun to look foreward to; in both this life and your next ones!

[LaurenG]

3. I don't know anyone who thinks it's easy to be forgiving

The energy dynamic of unforgivness will keep us in a rut though and often will bring more of the same type of people into our lives as the originators of the pain.

I think we lose power when we're afraid and unforgiving. I used a psychotherapist who was certified in EMDR to move past some serious childhood trauma and multiple rape episodes at age 16. I choose bi-tonal sound rather than eye movement. I'm not sure of the success rate overall, however, I know it helped me.

A sibling on the other hand who had similar childhood pain is still angry. I can't know for certain if this particular modality works for everyone, I can say that it freed me considerably from the above mentioned issues.


http://www.emdria.org

http://www.concernedcounseling.com/communities/Depression/treatment/emdr/article_therapist.asp

[marions ghost]

4. good links, thanks

Do you have any idea whether EMDR works for ongoing trauma or situations which can't be resolved, or whether it is primarily for "erasing" past traumas that are in the distant past?

I don't know too much about it but am interested that it has helped you. I might try it. For one thing it deals more directly with the brain/nerve pathways, rather than going through rational thought or belief systems.

[LaurenG]

5. I believe it may help

What I found is that the things I have no control over are significantly less painful. They lose the sting, trauma and importance they once held. It also made me less interested in staying in or participating in situations that crossed my boundaries. I lost my father within months of completing EMDR and I was able to get through the trauma much more easily than my siblings were. I do think it works permanently on similar issues that were worked with initially as well.

It doesn't exactly erase trauma but it gives a rational space to put things into perspective with a good sense of detachment when immersed in them.

It is probably an individual process as well as a tool that will work for all of us a bit differently. However, those who are truly ready to move on probably will whether we use this tool or another.

[BanzaiBonnie]

6. What do the letters EMDR stand for?

I'm going to be taking the ho'oponopono class in September. I'll let you know how it works. Part of the healing technique is about forgiveness. I'm impressed by what I've seen and experienced so far. I'll report back more once I've been to the class.

This is my favorite article on their website:

100% Responsibility and the Possibility
of a Hot Fudge Sundae

http://hooponopono.org/Articles/100_percent_responsible.html

How do you thank someone who has helped to set you free? How do you thank a man whose gentle spirit and zinger statements have forever altered the course of your life? Haleakala Hew Len is such a man for me. Like a soul brother who shows up unexpectedly in an hour of need. Haleakala came into my life in March of 1985, during a time of massive change for me. I met him during a training called "Self I-Dentity Through Ho'oponopono," which he facilitated along with the late Morrnah Nalamaku Simeona, a native Hawaiian kahuna ("keeper of the secret").

For me, Haleakala and Morrnah are part of the rhythm of life. Though I love them both dearly, I don't really dwell on thoughts of them as people, yet their influence is always there for me, beating a steady pulse like African drums in the night. Recently, I had the honor of being asked to interview Haleakala by The Foundation of I, Inc. (Freedom of the Cosmos), an organization founded by Morrnah. It was an even greater honor to learn that he would be coming from his home in Hawaii to meet with me personally.

Dr. Haleakala S. Hew Len is the foundation's president and administrator. Together with Morrnah, Haleakala has worked with thousands of people over the years, including groups at the United Nations, UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization), International Human Unity Conference on World Peace, World Peace Conference, Traditional Indian Medicine Conference, Healers for Peace in Europe, an the Hawaii State Teachers Association. He also has extensive experience working with developmentally disabled people and with the criminally mentally ill and their families. In all his work as an educator, the Ho'oponopono process supports and permeates every breath of his efforts.

Simply put, Ho'oponopono means, "to make right," or "to rectify an error." According to the ancient Hawaiians, error arises from thoughts that are tainted by painful memories from the past. Ho'oponopono offers a way to release the energy of these painful thoughts, or errors, which cause imbalance and disease.

[LaurenG]

7. That looks like a great class

I think learning any modality to let the pain go is great. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it!

EMDR = Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing.

[marions ghost]

8. OK I see

having a more neutral reaction to the old experience of trauma could lessen the impact of similar issues cropping up later. Makes sense. Good explanation.

Yes I see EMDR as an individual tool, just something to try. People are so different--there's no one-size-fits-all form of therapy really.

[Why Syzygy]

24. I'm going to try to look into it.

There are things in my past and present I am finding impossible to overcome. I've been bounced around a lot my entire life and just never thought about another way to manage than just keep going. I knew a few other people who had been traumatized and gave up. I knew I wasn't like them. But I find lately giving up seems like the only option. What other tools? This is an area I've been aware of for some time and in fact went to Florida earlier this year to participate in what is advertised as a treatment to overcome trauma. They say they offer a safe place. I was so traumatized going through their intake procedure that I was hyperventilating and sobbing on the porch. My blood pressure medicine was reduced and they don't allow most medications at all. I sometimes take an antihistamine product for anxiety, but wasn't allowed that. Some of the women have alters. It is very cultist. Lots of control and group reciting of a mantra. They only allow an alcoholics anonymous book, their program materials or the Bible for reading. I did know about that and it hit my alarm button, but I had already purchased my airline ticket and had put my hope on this recovery process for three years. I had to wait until insurance would cover it. Needless to say, it was a huge disappointment and maybe even destructive. I got an early discharge and rode 28 hours home on Greyhound because I could not get out of there soon enough.

It is great to hear there are other approaches available. I wasted a couple of months recently seeing a therapist. She was worthless. Dealing with abuse survivors is not a light hearted subject. I'm sure it frustrates many professionals. I had one throw up his hands and tell me I had too many walls, he couldn't help me. Fortunately that was an isolated incident and have worked with a couple of very therapeutic individuals. But the main issue never got resolved. So that sure was limited scope, wasn't it. I don't even know that we knew what the main issue is. Even though it should be clear from my history. I don't really get all dramatic about the stuff that happened. I tell it in a detached way. Maybe that comes across as not being something important to deal with. Then there does remain the idea mentioned above that those who are abused somehow are responsible. Personally, I will take responsibility if it will help. Mea Culpa! Now can I feel better? No. Feeling like a victim does not make the pain go away. It does seem to attract more.

I don't usually get this personal in public forums. I hope I don't regret it.

[marions ghost]

27. I can only offer questions

...for you to ask of yourself, in hopes it might be helpful. No need to answer them here. I don't represent myself as having any answers. I am a seeker on this path of forgiving as well....

I also have experienced 'help' that was all wrong, so I understand that feeling. But when you went to Florida, what did you learn about what you might really need to heal? There may be clues in that experience. Nothing is a waste. Give yourself the gift of Time in this process.

Seems to me that you are "taking responsibility." People CAN'T always prevent being abused. Oh sure there might be behaviors you might work on to avoid it again, but nobody really ASKS for it (unless they are seriously masochistic), don't you agree? I have seen people beat themselves up worrying about whether they asked for abuse, or weren't strong enough in discouraging it, or some other personal failure. I think that kind of guilt is the first thing to let go of. Are there others that you could "work it out" with, and would that help in the healing? Or is this only a matter of forgiveness in your own heart?

Treatments and therapies --so many these days it's overwhelming. As for 'talk therapy' counsellors, get one that's on your wave. Shop around even more if necessary. Know that there is help and it will come. You are asking for help. Expect it. I say this from experience. These 'walls' the therapist spoke of...I laughed because we ALL have walls! Any therapist worth his/her salt should see it as their JOB to help you get inside those walls, so obviously that guy wasn't up to the job. You didn't trust him enough and he didn't earn your trust...as I said, keep looking. But also look into yourself. All the answers aren't out there somewhere. You might like some type of bodywork therapy as well.

Being abused/traumatized shocked your psyche and put you in conflict with yourself. At least this was my experience with it. That is an ongoing block, a source of pain. It takes work to wash away the pain. You don't seem to be denying or hiding, so that indicates you're ready to leave it behind. Get ready to heal that situation just as if you had a physical illness. It involves learning to trust again. Learning to trust people (some, but not all), yourself, and possibly the Universal Spirit again. The most crucial one might be to trust yourself. Allow yourself to glimpse a life beyond this wounded state. It's very doable...with time.

Since I don't know you 'vote', all I can do is throw out these thoughts from my own experience. Even if it just helps to know that others have been there, that's worth something :)

[SeattleGirl]

9. Being angry at someone for what they have done to you is

destructive to oneself, I can agree. But it's sometimes a very hard thing to let go of, especially if we were greatly harmed by another. I have come to understand, intellectually at least, that being able to let go of anger only does me good in the long run, but I also know that it cannot be forced. If I try to force it, it would only be a false letting go, and eventually the anger or hurt will come bubbling up again.

Years ago, I got involved with a man I refer to as my Grand Obsession, because that's what it was -- an obsession. He ended up hurting me more than any other person ever has before or since. It is only now, 15 years after I ended it, that I don't feel anger and hurt if I think about him, and what happened. For me, letting go of those feelings doesn't mean it was okay that he did what he did to me; it wasn't okay, and I will never think it was. I would also never let him back into my life, should I ever run across him again.

So basically, what I know to be true, at least for me, is that letting go of anger and hurt is possible, but it is also a process that cannot be hurried or forced. If it happens, it happens over time.

[Why Syzygy]

25. 15 years?!

og . I can't endure 15 years of this pain. I totally know the Grand Obsession theme. Please tell me their is a shorter route.

[Cleita]

10. As a Pisces I tend to agree with it.

Those people have deep wounds and are suffering more than you can imagine. They wouldn't take joy in making others suffer if they weren't in some way getting even for their own unhappiness.

I do keep my distance from toxic people though. I can't help them. All I can do is hope that they will get the help they need from those who can help them. One of the hardest lessons I have ever had to learn is to love even the unlovable by wishing for the healing of their souls and that they are protected from harm.

That doesn't mean that I don't think that those who have made egregious transgressions shouldn't be investigated, brought to Justice and given suitable punishment after a trial. I certainly pray for the day that the Bushistas will all stand trial for their criminal actions.

On edit: I forgot to add that the Creator loves all her creation, not just the ones we love. So to hate one of her children probably is pretty futile.

[Digit]

11. Forgiveness was part of my class in Law of Attraction

When we were made to understand it is a SELFISH thing done for our own good, it was easier.

My list was long, and I released them one by one, wishing for them their greatest good.
It was homework and I named everyone I could think of. Then I turned it around and asked for forgiveness from people I felt I had hurt. Not in person, of course.
Am I done, No, but I feel that some of the negative energy has been released.

[MissWaverly]

12. BlueIris

I believe that TeamBush are punishing themselves so you don't have to, look at their daily
lives: Cheney has shot one of his dearest friends in the face, Bush was doing high powered
exercise today; he ran over an armandillo and loss control of his mountain bike on a steep
incline.

[Why Syzygy]

26. He ran over an armadillo

on a bike? That takes extra special talent. Too bad I haven't been keeping up with current awful events for a few days.

edit: I can't find a news story. That would be a keeper.

[mother earth]

13. I don't necessarily feel you have to "forgive" people who have

done you wrong. It all depends on what your focus is. I think if you can't let go of the issue you associate with that person, than you must do so, sometimes we know something is wrong & still we must maintain our distance. I think when you forgive, somehow you must also embrace that the person didn't know better, but that is not always the case. That's why your focus is really the heart of the matter. If you can let it go being the most important thing. For example, if you are a victim of abuse and understand what brought you to that person, as long as you understand the dynamics involved and can intellectually know there are certain dangers in life, we do not always have to "forgive". Some things are just plain wrong, we can accept that those things exist and they happen. If we have learned something through the situation, i.e., ways to avoid, precautions, etc., that is the only thing we have to be grateful for.

I think ultimately we have to forgive ourselves, which sometimes is the last thing we do. We sometimes blame ourselves, that's the problem.

If your focus is constantly on anger or fear or the emotion is negative, you have to find a peace within yourself to get beyond that.

I personally would not put the emphasis on forgiving, but that's me. :shrug: I no sooner could forgive the political deceit & craziness that we have been subjected to, but my focus is no longer on anger or getting upset over it. My focus is now on being grateful for how outlandish it can become, because the way I see it, it really sheds more light on their negativity, allowing people to see through it all, leading us to find a better way. So their negative actions always lead to truth and goodness. The light will always conquer the darkness. We have nothing to fear.
Gandhi was right.

[BlueIris]

14. Good post.

I think forgiveness of people is one thing, forgiveness of their cruel and wrong behavior is...not what the mystics are going for when they encourage us to seek enlightenment. And nice reminder to stay focused on our "focus."

[mother earth]

15. That's the trick, BlueIris, to keep that focus.

Keeping our eyes on the prize. :toast:

[Pathwalker]

17. Forgiving others is a gift you give yourself.

You do not forgive others for the sake of absolving them of their harmful actions. You forgive them in order to release whatever pain those actions caused YOU. That is the great secret of forgiveness - it does not free that person you've forgiven - it frees you. It melts the anger within you, soothes the pain you've endured, and brings the hope of a brighter future, unburdened by your past pain. It really is necessary when one remains stuck from pain and anger, yet wishes to go forward without the pain, the anger, and the grief weighing them down.
This has been my own experience, your mileage may vary.

[BanzaiBonnie]

18. It's not letting them off the hook

It's letting go of the anger so you don't carry it around. You can become ill from some of that toxic shit. I'm quite sure that some cancer is caused by holding anger.

[ropi]

19. i agree with you there...

BanzaiBonnie! Cancers are caused by holding in anger. Also, I'd add that it's swallowing anger and internalizing it too.

Battens

(yay! i got my star--i can post!)

[mother earth]

20. I think we are saying the same thing. Forgiveness may very

well be the gift you give yourself, but it really isn't necessary if you have already let go of hurt or any emotion, it's really not an issue if you have moved on. We do grow in other ways, it's not always about forgiveness, sometimes it's just about a new understanding. Life happens, we do grow from the good, the bad and the ugly. Forgiving is necessary if you are blocked from moving forward and letting go. We each have to answer to our own hearts and know more than anybody what is there.

I don't mean to minimize your message, but only wish to add that sometimes it's not an issue. I do think that forgiveness does include absolving, and that's not always appropriate.

[Matariki]

21. first off, acceptance isn't the opposite of anger

that idea alone makes it difficult to let go of anger. As if not feeling your anger would mean that you condone what's happening or are somehow passively letting something happen which is wrong or unacceptable to you.

the intensity of the emotion creates an attachment. the attachment can often cause the situation to continue. you can let go of your anger and still work to change a situation. in fact many times, i've found, that letting go of the emotion of anger will, in itself, remedy a situation. i mean this on a metaphysical level.

let me give you an example. this weekend i had to travel and the airlines lost my luggage. i couldn't get through to an actual human-being to find out where my stuff was, only very frustrating automated phone messages - which were NO help what-so-ever. Needless to say, I was intensely angry. There were rare plant cuttings in the bag as well as some hard to replace magical items. Nothing that would be covered in the airline's luggage compensation policies. I did a ritual to get my luggage back quickly, but could also feel my anger - my righteous indignation, holding on to the situation. I knew that for my magic to work i had to let go of the anger. It's hard to describe, because yes i was still annoyed and mad about it and with good reason, but i let the internal intensity of if go, the part of me that wanted them to *really* lose my bags so i could stay extremely pissed off.

does that make sense?

[PinkTiger]

22. This works best, in my opinion, when applied to people close to you.

I doubt if it is meant that we accept abuse from groups or in a general way. I think this is advice meant to be used in the familial unit, or among friends and coworkers. It is true that anger does the angry person more harm than the person or persons you are angry about. If I feel anger towards my spouse or a sibling, or a friend, harboring it and holing up with that anger is counter productive.
Now, on a general level, protracted, white-hot anger at anyone like GBush or similar is also counter productive to my well being. When the 2000 election was held, I was angry for a long, long time. I was unable to talk to anyone about it if they disagreed with me. I have had to mellow out somewhat. I have to realize that others have a right to their opinions, however misguided, and I cannot control them.

As for forgiveness, I find this hard. I don't forget. I may not harbor resentment, but I won't forget so I can be harmed again, later, by the same person. I don't set myself up for pain and suffering nor expect that the other person has changed. And I don't think a person should put up with abuse from anyone. I find in my life, that when I'm through with someone, I'm really through. I disconnect totally and don't put myself out there to be harmed.

[Why Syzygy]

23. Anger is much better than despair.

I wish I could work myself into anger at this point. At least then there would be a motivation to keep going. Funny I should run across this topic today because was just talking about it last night. I've been away from DU for several days.

I've handed out whole heaps of forgiveness over my lifetime. But I'm in a miserable state of affairs right now. I discussed forgiveness with my son last night. He is a Christian believer. I am not. Gave it up years ago. It seems to me that people who don't follow that belief system are much more compassionate. Shouldn't generalize and I don't mean to criticize anyone here. I just know from my own personal experience, that has been the case. I have forgiven them over and over for the pains and cruelties. But, they have never forgiven me one iota. They continue to harbor mean critical spirits. I also believe that implicit in the concept of forgiveness is the notion that someone stops doing harmful things! How can I say I'm sorry for an unkind act and then keep doing it? That isn't sorry. How can they expect to be forgiven themselves when their own scriptures teach that they will receive forgiveness in the amount they give it.

I don't forgive the current administration or the people who keep it going one bit. There are stories of martyrs praying for forgiveness for those killing them while being killed. I'm no martyr. Those people are dead. Forgiveness didn't seem to help them or anyone else at all.