You need to read this. (I edited the title)

[madfloridian]

I edited the title, but I feel the same way. The DFA is a movement for sure, but it is NOT one meant to be a place to be sure Howard Dean stays in the background.

I do not know what is meant by this. The whole thing is posted at the blog and HQ is now aware.

http://forclark.com/comments/2004/12/1/222315/138#59

(I am only posting a couple of snips. I don't even know the area, but this kind of stuff does not go on at our meetings. We cover all kinds of topics, but there is NO desire to keep Dean in the background! I question this. The whole thing is posted at the blog, but I am cautious here.)

SNIP..."I'm back from a DFA Meetup (Democracy for America, the previous Dean
Meetup); Dean was nearly irrelevant to the meeting..."(posted by jsainio)

And the ending quote:
SNIP..."Overall, much more goal-oriented and driven than I expected. As long as Dean stays in the shadows, the group will probably be productive.."

If the Clark people don't like Dean, they should form their own Meet-ups. Do not tell me not to over react to stuff like this. We work damn hard here locally for the principles Dean stands for. We all speak out on issues, we have dominated the letters to the editors in our area.

This makes me furious. Does this guy post here at DU as well?

[WilliamPitt]

1. It's sad to hear that Clark people are 'the enemy.'

[ProudToBeLiberal]

2. I didn't know you were a fan of DFA...cool nt

[hippiechick]

16. He's not.

:hippie:

[Capn Sunshine]

4. Just to clarify Will

We are all aware of the contentious troublemakers and Freepers posing as Clark supporters.

In that sense, yeah,"enemies"

MF has a few issues with these folks regarding their constant attacks on her when she posts.

The full text of that Clarkie post is available elsewhere, and I would say the overall tone is one of basic bewilderment that what evolved from Dean for President into DFA is actually a MOVEMENT and not candidate centric or a personality cult. I don't know if you think of the speculation for Dean as DFC chair as "gushing" but that's always the word that springs to mind when I read the Clarkie posts.

Tomato, ToMAHto.......

[madfloridian]

7. Yeah, Capn, I have issues.

I have issues with people saying Dean should not be a part of it. He is honorary chair of DFA. Yeh, I sure do have issues. I have been made fun of when I posted intelligent things. I have pleaded that we recognize it was organized.

Yeh, I have issues.

[WilliamPitt]

8. Pardon my ignorance

but what position is 'DFC chair'? Is this part of DFA?

For the record, anyone who thinks Dean should not be a part of DFA is wacky.

[madfloridian]

10. Thank you.

I think he meant DNC.

[WilliamPitt]

13. I think Dean would be a brilliant choice for DNC chair

I've been hoping for this ever since the first possibility was raised. One could argue that being a glorified fundraiser is beneath him, but I think Dean could fashion the office into one with real muscle and influence.

[janx]

19. Maybe we'll know more after Dec. 11.

[Capn Sunshine]

14. DNC

DNC, I meant DNC.

lol

[madfloridian]

5. Only if they declare themselves so...as this person did.

At least in my opinion. I will not post in general forums anymore because of being attacked.

To me it is only a few, but it is destroying positive interaction and working together.

They are only the enemy when they do things like this. Form your own meet-up if you don't like us or Howard Dean.

[ibegurpard]

3. As long as people share the same goals

of empowering grassroots activism, concentrating on remaking the party from the local level up, and focusing on the traditional Democratic Party values of economic and social justice, then I don't particularly care how they feel about Dean.
I would have a problem with someone who goes in to attempt to remake it into an organization to work towards nominating someone for President, though. I don't think Dean looks at it that way and I don't think anyone who wants to get involved should either.

[madfloridian]

6. No, it is wrong to take over DFA forums for other purposes.

You are dead wrong on that. That is NOT what it was meant to be. If others want to attend, that is good. Dean did not intend for DFA to be a part of the party per se....he has said it many times.

If Clark people don't like him, they should form their own meet-ups;

[ibegurpard]

9. I know...that is what I was trying to say.

Sorry it wasn't clearer.
I don't care how people feel about Dean as long as they agree with the PURPOSE of DFA. However, anyone who DOES get involved is going to have to recognize that DFA is an evolution of the effort to get Dean elected as President and that openly bad-mouthing him is not going to win them any friends in the organization.

[shance]

11. Would you like some sugar with that Karl Rove strategery?

Looks it, don't it?

This reminds me of the over-zealous Kerry "suppoorters", who werent Kerry supporters at all, they were paid for hacks to spend time in internet communities and create disruption. Yep, that's their JOB.

When you see that divisive Democratic infighting coming on, just think REPUBLICAN.

Don't asssume everything you see at face value.

More often than not the devil's in the details.

[madfloridian]

12. Follow that person's posts.

Check it out as I will.
(#28) (Rated 5.00/2)

by jsainio (jeff is jsainio at sbcglobal dot net) on 12/01/2004 10:55:10 PM EST

[Capn Sunshine]

15. Hey , as an aside, did you read further down the thread about BBV

and bev Harris re: Kieth Olberman?

Bev ,as a publlicist first, often irks those trying to have a more academic discussion....


But it serves no purpose keeping Olberman on the outside.

[JNelson6563]

17. There is one person on my ignore list

What the hell are you doing in here Pitt? This ain't the forum for Dean-bashing, you musta made a wrong turn (again).

Here I thought this was a haven from the craven. My bad.

Julie

[janx]

18. For what it's worth, anyone--regardless of who they

supported for president in the last primaries (I'm getting really tired of that)is welcome at a DFA MeetUp.

Capn is right. It's not about Dean as a personality or anything else. We're in dire straits here, and we all have to do something.

It is, however, unfortunate that someone had what looks like ulterior motives in attending. But it's not unusual. I heard just last night at our MeetUp that those who go through Dem training are taught that in any group that exceeds twelve people, there will probably be a mole of some kind somewhere. There were people at Dean Meetups during the primaries who did not have the best intentions.

So DFA is going to have to make adjustments as we encourage people to attend. Most will come out of curiosity; others might have some weird motives. That will undoubtedly be part of the territory.

[madfloridian]

20. Janx, you think it is ok?

Sorry. I disagree. You seem to believe it is fine for some person who attended to be thankful for the LACK of Dean influence?

DFA is open to all, but it is not considered ok by me to HOPE he stays in the damn background.

[janx]

22. OK? No. Inevitable? Yes.

There have always been and will always be moles at MeetUps. Based on his comments, it sounds as if this guy was had ulterior motives.

[madfloridian]

23. It is only inevitable if you do not care.

.

[janx]

24. Do you think that whether I care or not is going to stop people

with ulterior motives?

[madfloridian]

25. Whatever.

I don't give a damn anymore.

[madfloridian]

21. Capn and Janx, I am having problems here.

I have backed off posting about Dean in open forums. I did it to avoid attacks by these folks. I did it also to avoid criticisms for you guys.

Dean's influence is and should be a part of DFA always. He can back off or whatever, he can avoid it like a plague to take the DNC chair. It is still a parcel of who we are.

I am uncomfortable with the way you guys keep telling me or implying to me that I should just back off being a supporter of this group.

I have NOT been the one to be on the offense...THEY have. Not me. I tried to fight back, but now I don't. All the little Dean people are going to play nice now, aren't they?

Is that what you are telling me. Please be clear. I am used to being treated that way by them, but not by you guys.

If a person comes to the DFA meet-ups, he is by his presence implying appreciation and acceptance of how the group began. Do you agree with that or not?

Am I out of line according to you guys? Please let me know.

[janx]

26. I have certainly never intended to influence your behavior,

MF.

About the guy with the ulterior motives: You may as well know now that people do that all the time. It's nothing new. There are, however, enough people who sincerely care about what they're doing at these gatherings that it doesn't matter much.

[madfloridian]

28. You have no outrage anymore, janx.

It is not like you.

[madfloridian]

27. I need to know this. Should I quit posting in here as well?

Have the terms changed now? Didn't think so from our meet-up. There was great interest from, but there was NO talk of it not being about Dean. I don't want to offend folks, and I need to know what the heck is going on about the posts to me....like you guys are sort of apologizing for that really bad madfloridian.

I have fought a lot of battles for the candidate I supported, we have donated and supported many candidates.

I have never been out of line in my posts. Why can I do nothing right now...I want to know, I need to know.

[WilliamPitt]

30. madfloridian, with all respect

The very last thing in the world you should be doing is asking other people what you should be doing. A lot of people here appreciate your posts and your work, and if you are getting grief from certain individuals, that is why God (read: Skinner) invented the 'Ignore' function.

You have a strong mind of your own. I know; I've run headlong into it on many occasions. Strife and frustration are part of the package in politics, especially after an event like the November 2 election. Don't let anyone make up your mind for you, don't let anyone bend your will or your decisions, and don't let that frustration and strife drive you from the field. You are needed and necessary, and if people disagree with you, it may very well mean that you're doing something right.

[Cheswick2.0]

50. MF... please stop for a minute.. we all LOVE you

WE all think you are fantastic. Neither Capt or Janx is disagreeing with you. They are saying what you are saying only slightly differently. Don't you dare leave here. You are the heart of DFA on these boards.

Please please trust your friends. We have been through what you have been though.

I have a situation her in Pa. I think our local meet-up may not really be run by Dean or DFA supporters. I see the names of several of the party hack regulars (back stabbers) on our sign up list. I think the local democratic party people are infiltrating DFA to run it into an arm of the DNC which they can control. I have to do some research and I have to keep my cool. Please don't think you are alone.

[ibegurpard]

52. THAT is what we need to be on guard against

People who try to co-opt it and turn it into a faux-grassroots organization or something to try to get a particular personality elected. People who may not have liked Howard Dean or been taken in by a lot of the slams against him but agree with the overall goals of the organization can have a lot in common with us. They need to know that attacks on Dean aren't going to be welcomed but also that DFA is not just about Howard Dean.

[mandyky]

29. I won't vote for a resume` again

military or otherwise. So if these folks plan on running Clark again, there won't be an ABB vote from me.

As for folks who trash Dean, they trash me. Maybe they'll learn something at the meet-ups, though, like they need to run for office or work for the party at the local level as well as attend meet-ups..

[NoPasaran]

31. This thread is incredible

We're on the verge of a Clark/Dean flame war without any Clarkies taking part.

Okay, so some Clark guy went to a DFA Meetup and was surprised that people were genuinely engaged in grassroots politics and not just sitting around talking about how wonderful Howard Dean is. I think that's great. I hope he comes back next month.

Democracy For America came out of the Dean campaign, but I think it's about a whole lot more than the good doctor. To me, the radical message of Howard Dean is that politics should belong to ordinary people. We have the power to effect change, and we have the responsibility to be actively remaking our party and taking back our country. I started going to Kerry meetups back in March not because I was wild about Kerry but because (1) Dean urged us to support that campaign if we could and (2) because I knew I would meet other people who also wanted to remake politics like I did but for one reason or another "hadn't drunk the kool aid". And now some of of people are coming to DFA meetups, others are at least friendly to DFA because they know that we are a serious-minded bunch of people who actually get things done.

Who's running for President in 2008? At this point I could not care less. There's a lot of ground to be covered before we get there, and the more people we recruit into the DFA orbit the more we will be able to accomplish.

[ibegurpard]

32. Agreed

My thoughts as well. DFA has to evolve (and I think it is doing so)into more than an organization to promote Dean. I think that Dean himself would recognize that. We won't get anywhere if the sole focus is on who the next Presidential nominee is going to be.
Remember, "You have the power."

[madfloridian]

33. I understand now.

I will back off. So will many others. I thought his insulting the founder of the group after leaving a meeting of the groups was inappropriate.

Now I know I am wrong. Now I will be assimiliated properly.

[ibegurpard]

35. You're not hearing what we're saying

No one is agreeing that insulting Dean is okay. But we have to realize that we ARE going to have to build coalitions with like-minded people who disagree with us on who should've been the candidate this time. Dean knows the way to rebuild the PARTY is through local and grassroots activism. That's why he is focused on DFA, not because he wanted a springboard for another run. If we use it solely for that reason then we're no better than some of the other people who are simply focusing on the candidate for next time. There ARE people out there who agree with our overall goals who either were misinformed about Dean or simply didn't like him for whatever reason.
DFA is definitely not the place for people to come and slam Dean. But I think there can be a place there for people who are working towards the same things we are that may not have liked Dean at first glance.

[madfloridian]

36. I apologized. I am sorry.

I never meant to hurt anyone. I have a misguided sense of what is appropriate at times, I guess.

If you are sure it is not a group for the future, then I take your word for it. If it is going to part of the culture of anything goes, I take your word for it.

I don't care anymore. I have been made to look foolish long enough.

No, maybe I don't understand. My hubby just went to DEC tonight to vote a proxy for someone. He does not plan to stay a DEC member, as they are going to be more religious and they want to avoid discussing things like gays and abortion and all the dirty stuff. He comes home from the meetings upset and angry.

Dean was not mentioned that much at our meet-up. But no one insulted him, either. If they did, we would have something to say. However, if it is now ok for someone to go and then insult, if it is going in that direction.....then I can't go there.

I worked very hard, my husband did. We donated a lot of money, but that is not important now.

The most important thing now, as I see it here, is to open up with open arms to anyone, even if they insult us and dislike what Howard Dean stands for.

I am sorry, I can go part way there....but not all.

[mandyky]

40. MF, when we deaniacs says

no retreat, no surrender we mean it, right? LOL

Unfortunately, that means everyone! sorta

MF, don't let folks get you down! {{HUUGS}}

[madfloridian]

43. Thanks.

I don't surrender, but I won't hurt others. I retreated from open forums because I gathered I was hurting the cause by being branded as one of the worst troublemakers.

If I have to retreat from here for fear of displeasing, I guess I will stand up for things elsewhere.

[Cheswick2.0]

51. stop it right now.................I agree with you

I am the one who posted his comments on the blog. I'd like to smack the asshole upside his head and tell him NEVER TO COME BACK. But as long as he is in the minority and people at the meet-up continue to run them with the intentions and focus on the DFA aggenda then he can stick around and learn something.

[madfloridian]

37. I did not say a word about 2008.

I did not say all those things you put in your post. I am, believe it or not, NoParasan, quite intelligent. I am not at all worshipful.

I just am a little surprised at the easy acceptance of anything just to get the numbers.

How hard would it be to say if you are going to attend our meet-ups, don't insult our founder.?

When did we cross the line to not caring about anything but numbers?
Go to the DFA forum, and you will see it is just like the party now.

We were different for a while because we did not so readily accept being marginalized. Now, I am being treated that way here because I am indignant over the statement that guy made.

I am a lot older than most of you, and I have learned things that go beyond simply politics. One of them is that if you are not loyal to what you stand for, then you will not count for anything.

Texas and Florida are very vulnerable to GOP influence. Our DEC here is beyond redemption, but we are trying. But never in our wildest imagination would we say it is ok to attend our meetings and insult the founder.

[NoPasaran]

38. madfloridian, I do not want to fight with you

I really value the way you keep us all posted on Dean's speaking engagements and his appearances in the media. And I appreciate all you are doing in Florida. I hope you make it out to Democracy Fest so I can meet you in person.

[madfloridian]

39. I do a lot more than post about his appearances.

I stand up for things, and I speak out for things that are wrong or compromising. It is not fighting with someone to differ with them.

Yes, we do a lot here. Our DFA leader here just got elected State committeewoman. Just got the call from the meeting.

I have had the distinct impression that I am being sort of warned that we are not to make waves now. If I have to leave DFA to make waves, I will do so.

Sometimes we need to make waves, don't we. When someone is insulting to us or the founder of our organization, it is not ok to say welcome, hit me again.

Read Mathew Gross's blog, the entry by his wife...

I am not here to fight with anyone. I will fight elsewhere if you guys think I am getting dangerous to DFA.

[madfloridian]

34. Would someone please request this thread be locked or deleted.

I see now the problem. I should have understood it was ok. I should not have reacted to it in any way. I should have been proper, and I should be a good Democrat.

Thanks again for the implications of worship. People who know me know better. I thought we stood for something.

I tried. Please have someone delete it.

Oh, just one more thing: Could you explain to me how, if we go this route of accepting just anything, that we are any different than the rest of the party? If we can not even stand up in a Democratic forum and say you will NOT insult the founder of our group.....then tell me again how we are different."

Oh, never mind.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

41. I want the old madfloridian back

:cry:

[madfloridian]

42. But I have not changed.

That is the problem. I am the same as I was when I came here in 2002. I have not changed. Well, maybe one way. I speak up now when I think I need to do so. But I don't want to hurt DFA or hurt Dean's chances with the DNC.

So if I have to back off, it will just be from here. I never post anything that I am ashamed of, and I never will.

I am so afraid some DFA people will be cowering from the attacks by others, and afraid to speak out on anything.

That is a legit fear. I live where that is done, where people are so afraid of offending Republicans that they won't say anything important.

I am so thankful our DFA leader won her bid for State Committeewoman tonight. She is as outspoken as I am, and we are all proud of her. She was elected in spite of or because of her outspoken nature.

[mrgorth]

44. This thread frightens me

and it's why I stopped posting at "the location that shall not be named". Janx is 100% right on this one.

[madfloridian]

45. I agree that DFA should welcome everyone.

However, I think it is a different kind of group because it is well known who started it.

I disagree with any of you who think DFA and Dean can be totally separated to the point where insults about him should be ok.

I am sorry, but it has nothing to do with hero worship and everything to do with decency.

I would never go to a PDA meet-up and insult Kucinich. I would never go to a Kerry/Edwards Meet-up and insult them. If I did I would expect outrage.

I find it frightening that I am the one being condemned here. I truly do. I find it frightening that you are frightened by me.

Of course this person is welcome, but he should not say, "well it might work if Howard Dean stays out of the picture." No, that is just wrong, like a slap in the face.

Again, when DFAers disapprove of me I find it sad. But then again, 4 out of 7 posts in our DEC were filled with Dean supporters who are very outspoken and clear-thinking....but what the hell do we know.

[mrgorth]

46. No, you're right

the person in question SHOULDN'T have done that and frankly, I think it's stupid for them to feel that way and attend meetup. However, there is no way to check people's intent or character at the door and if there was I wouldn't want to do it. Hell, there are probably people at meetups around the country that beat their kids. I'd rather screen them if I could. Bottom line is the guy is wrong but you still need to relax.

[madfloridian]

47. Could you define "relax" more clearly?

The only reason I ask is that I don't want to be blamed ever for hurting DFA and/or Dean and his chances for a chair elsewhere. I am gathering that most of the people here in this forum think I am out of line for questioning that event.

I don't apologize. I have not relaxed since my hubby found his cancer care drugs may not be as available next year. I have not relaxed since my insurance has tripled since my retirement from teaching. I have not relaxed since our church called us unpatriotic for not supporting the war.

I am on guard. Sadly, now I don't know whom to be on guard against.

[mrgorth]

48. No. I'm only trying to help

as someone who has trouble relaxing themselves. All I know is if I were in your situation (and I have my own crosses to bear) the last thing I would be worried about is what a Clarkie at meetup thinks.

[madfloridian]

49. Don't patronize, please.

Actually we have a pretty good situation and a good life. We are quite comfortable compared to most. I am angry with a righteous type of anger. I do not feel sorry for us.

I feel anger at being made to feel uncomfortable for posting the truth.

I need to back off and think about that.